Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[FunAtParties]

He's saying that the characters chosen took no one's spot because the spot was always theirs barring the Chrom and Robin situation.

You wouldn't get six unique movesets.

You'd get four. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!!!

The time to make a clone is a fraction of the time to make a unique character.

Roy and Lucina probably took 2/3 of the amount of time of say Robin and that's fine.


You can't do that.

You can't take the time used to make Lucina (done at the last minute of the base game) and Roy (a DLC character) and magically put them together. That's not how development works.

It was either Lucina, Dark Pit and Doc or nothing. Roy doesn't magically get more development just because Lucina got less.

Use your brain here.




Admittedly, your tone made it seem like a bad thing.

Though maybe an error in communication happened.

The story of my life lol.

 

[Deleted member]

Just because you are a fire type doesn't mean you get to do that.

.....

dammit that was clever

 

[Chandeelure]

You guys have a lot of patience.

To move discussion along, what kind of changes do you expect Smash 4 newcomers to get?

Not major moveset overhauls. Just little ones.

Things like having a different Bair then .

Palutena having less boring specials, the clones being more unique, maybe Ash Greninja, I don't know, the newcomers's movesets are pretty well done.

I expect more changes to veterans.

 

[AlphaSSB]

To move discussion along, what kind of changes do you expect Smash 4 newcomers to get?

Not major moveset overhauls. Just little ones.

Things like having a different Bair then .

Glad to see a change in pace. Was thinking of starting a question myself, but wasn't sure what with.

• & - Speaking of clones, if Dark Pit and Lucina end up sticking around, they may get some moveset changes to differentiate them a bit more from Pit and Marth, respectively.
• - I want to say that Greninja may get a new Final Smash, possibly relating to Ash-Greninja, but I'm not too sure on that one. Only thing really going for this is that Ash-Greninja is in Sun and Moon.
• - If Xenoblade doesn't get a new character, I can see Shulk getting some minor changes to loosely refer to the new games.
• - Depends if there is a new Animal Crossing game with new features/mechanics. I can see a few moves being changed with ones that relate to whatever was new for the series.
  
• - Miis could all end up getting changes if they return. I feel literally anything is game to be changed with them.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

- If Xenoblade doesn't get a new character, I can see Shulk getting some minor changes to loosely refer to the new games.

Funny you say that.

I was actually confident that Shulk would get the least changes.

His whole thing seems too complicated to give him big changes.

 

[FunAtParties]

To move discussion along, what kind of changes do you expect Smash 4 newcomers to get?

Not major moveset overhauls. Just little ones.

Things like having a different Bair then .

Oooo I like this discussion Munomario777 should too.

I've been waiting to bring this up, saw it in the whole Ice Climbers not getting in quote. Highlighted area is relevant.

"Even if I cram in as many fighters as I can, there are some people who are focused on the few who didn’t make it back. Among them are the Ice Climbers, who were playable during development on the Wii U. However, moving the two as a pair required significant processing power. The 3DS was already being pushed to its limit, and I couldn’t get them to work no matter how hard I tried, so I gave up on them. The other fighters had to be whittled and pared down until I could get them to work, so it was simply unavoidable.

I couldn’t get them to work no matter how hard I tried: I removed as many joints as I possibly could, and even when I removed certain effects, like gravity, they still wouldn’t work. Olimar and his Pikmin were also extremely difficult, but I managed to at least get them to work.

Also, characters and series that have no plans for future releases, or a low possibility of future releases, inevitably will be considered lower priority. Furthermore, transferring them from Melee would be difficult because the original data is old."
-Masahiro Sakurai

I always thought it was interesting that so many characters got simplified in Smash 4. Small things like Meta Knights up b, King DDD's side b, etc... all got dumbed down, and while I liked it, I never knew why.

Reading this quote, I believe it was a thing done out of necessity, so I think it's possible all those tweaks get untweaked, so to speak. So it'll be really interesting to see what changes are coming for certain characters in the future.

As a side note, this quote made me realize I've been spelling 'whittle' wrong for a long time.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Oooo I like this discussion Munomario777 should too.

I've been waiting to bring this up, saw it in the whole Ice Climbers not getting in quote. Highlighted area is relevant.

"Even if I cram in as many fighters as I can, there are some people who are focused on the few who didn’t make it back. Among them are the Ice Climbers, who were playable during development on the Wii U. However, moving the two as a pair required significant processing power. The 3DS was already being pushed to its limit, and I couldn’t get them to work no matter how hard I tried, so I gave up on them. The other fighters had to be whittled and pared down until I could get them to work, so it was simply unavoidable.

I couldn’t get them to work no matter how hard I tried: I removed as many joints as I possibly could, and even when I removed certain effects, like gravity, they still wouldn’t work. Olimar and his Pikmin were also extremely difficult, but I managed to at least get them to work.

Also, characters and series that have no plans for future releases, or a low possibility of future releases, inevitably will be considered lower priority. Furthermore, transferring them from Melee would be difficult because the original data is old."
-Masahiro Sakurai

I always thought it was interesting that so many characters got simplified in Smash 4. Small things like Meta Knights up b, King DDD's side b, etc... all got dumbed down, and while I liked it, I never knew why.

Reading this quote, I believe it was a thing done out of necessity, so I think it's possible all those tweaks get untweaked, so to speak. So it'll be really interesting to see what changes are coming for certain characters in the future.

As a side note, this quote made me realize I've been spelling 'whittle' wrong for a long time.

To be fair, I think Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop was more of a balance change then anything else. Remember that move was ridiculous in Brawl. Meta Knight, Pit and Dark Pit have some unused gliding data in the game.

This means it probably wasn't removed for technical reasons.

 

[AlphaSSB]

Funny you say that.

I was actually confident that Shulk would get the least changes.

His whole thing seems too complicated to give him big changes.

Nothing would really be big though. I'm just talking small stuff that when seen, you can think "Hey, that kinda looks like how X does their XX attack. Neat." Like a change in his dash-attack that resembles another character's from XC2.

Wouldn't be anything that takes Shulk out of character, but enough for fans to get a reference.

 

[_Sheik]

To move discussion along, what kind of changes do you expect Smash 4 newcomers to get?

Not major moveset overhauls. Just little ones.

Things like having a different Bair then .

You mean Smash 4 veterans?

In any case, I'd like to see brand new artworks for everybody because, no matter how cool they actually are, they've gotten redundant as heck. Not a moveset thing, but it still would be nice. That's a recurring major fighting-game issue for me - except for the ones where the CSS is mostly made up of dynamic 3D models (like SSB64 and Street Fighter V), aka the ones we see in action during actual gameplay, rather than flat artwork.

Also (see username) I was pretty much hyped by Sheik's return to the roster during the Smash 4 speculation days but her awkward pose cooled me down...

 

[Chandeelure]

Yes! I loved the CSS in Smash 64, with the character doing a pose and all that.

 

[Schnee117]

To move discussion along, what kind of changes do you expect Smash 4 newcomers to get?

Well here's my idea for declon-

Not major moveset overhauls. Just little ones.

Things like having a different Bair then .

********.

Hmmmm...

I suppose a small one for Lucina would be changing one of her aerials to her spinning move from the Two Falchions cutscene.

Not quite a moveset change but for Shulk... Buster is now called Enchant. Shulk instead uses Buster as his last attack in the Chain Attack (even yelling "MONADO... BUSTER!!!"). It's an extremely irritating small detail because Enchant gives an Attack buff whilst Buster is a huge sword swing in Xenoblade.

Also switch Riki out for Reyn in his Chain Attack. It's another small thing that somewhat annoys me. Reyn's his best friend. He should be in the Chain Attack. Dunban's fine because he's Shulk's mentor. Plus having Reyn in their means that if Shulk calls for Reyn then we get "Now it's Reyn time!" Riki's already an assist trophy anyway so the Heropon still has time to shine.

Those are literally all I'd change about Shulk aside from slightly better frames.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Shulk... Buster is now called Enchant. Shulk instead uses Buster as his last attack in the Chain Attack (even yelling "MONADO... BUSTER!!!").

**** can I change my answer to this?

Shulk's moveset is ever so slightly irritating in the fact it is nearly perfect for me. But damn does Buster being completely wrong piss me off.

 

[FalKoopa]

.

I expect Dedede's Up Special's cancelling direction to be changed back to down to mess with players again.

 

[Chandeelure]

I would personally change some things about Bayonetta.

I would make her Bullet Arts Nair and Uair multihit attacks like in her games and I would also change her Side Tilt animation so it's more similar to the normal kick combo in the real games.

Also, I would make her change to her "serious mode" design when she uses her Final Smash and I would make the Bayo 1 design the default one instead of the one from the second game.

I want that, I don't expect it.

 

[FunAtParties]

To be fair, I think Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop was more of a balance change then anything else. Remember that move was ridiculous in Brawl. Meta Knight, Pit and Dark Pit have some unused gliding data in the game.

This means it probably wasn't removed for technical reasons.

I always thought the gliding data was what kind of proved it. I assumed gliding was removed due to it's inability to work on the 3DS in a similar nature to Brawl. Maybe problems with vertical movement or something idk, as Peach can still glide, I guess it can still work in some form. I never really considered that he removed it just because, though I'm totally fine with it because I never really liked it anyway.

Also ftr, I like MK's Shuttle Loop now much more than in Brawl.

ANYWAY I got a few ideas, hopefully some of the are liked:



Inhale
-When inhale sucks up a projectile, it can copy the power of that projectile. So now for example if Ness Pk Fire's and Kirby sucks it up, Kirby can now PK fire.
-If Final Cutter is refected, and Kirby in turns sucks it up, Kirby gets the cutter hat, and can sling cutter-boomerangs
-Sucking up DDD will instead give Kirby the ability to use the hammer.

Meteor
-Kirby's old dash attack now allowed to use anywhere. Helps Kirby's recovery.




I like the idea of Shulk being able to somewhat bend time in the game, and I don't think Vision in it's current form does it justice, so I'm throwing out some new ideas.

I know many don't want to see changes of this magnitude, but these can be applied to other characters as well.

Vision
-Not a counter in a true form anymore
-Press down b and Shulk goes in Vision animation (same as in 4, but slightly longer). During the animation the Shulk player inputs a different attack (any attack at all, even just down b again). It won't show, but if Shulk isn't interrupted he will be able to 'envision' the opponent's next attack. The next time the opponent does that attack, like for example an up smash, they will slow down just like how the current Vision works. With this, Shulk can get a free followup, or escape a dangerous attack.

Rewind
-By pressing , Shulk can set a spot on the map he wants to rewind to. By pressing again, he will slowly rewind to that area.
-Travels straight, and does not go through floors. If it hits a floor it will cancel.
-Will always take the fastest possible route back
-Cannot be done during hitstun.
-Doesn't grant invincibility
-Attacks can be done before, or after. By using an attack during Rewind, it will stretch out the hitbox and it's frames. Could be great for utilizing attacks like Backslash for example.

 

[Deleted member]

I expect Dedede's Up Special's cancelling direction to be changed back to down to mess with players again.

No. Diagonally down in the opposite direction of where you were facing before using it. :V

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I like the idea of Shulk being able to somewhat bend time in the game, and I don't think Vision in it's current form does it justice, so I'm throwing out some new ideas.

I know many don't want to see changes of this magnitude, but these can be applied to other characters as well.

Vision
-Not a counter in a true form anymore
-Press down b and Shulk goes in Vision animation (same as in 4, but slightly longer). During the animation the Shulk player inputs a different attack (any attack at all, even just down b again). It won't show, but if Shulk isn't interrupted he will be able to 'envision' the opponent's next attack. The next time the opponent does that attack, like for example an up smash, they will slow down just like how the current Vision works. With this, Shulk can get a free followup, or escape a dangerous attack.

Rewind
-By pressing , Shulk can set a spot on the map he wants to rewind to. By pressing again, he will slowly rewind to that area.
-Travels straight, and does not go through floors. If it hits a floor it will cancel.
-Will always take the fastest possible route back
-Cannot be done during hitstun.
-Doesn't grant invincibility
-Attacks can be done before, or after. By using an attack during Rewind, it will stretch out the hitbox and it's frames. Could be great for utilizing attacks like Backslash for example.

Uh...

Shulk has no time powers whatsoever.

He can only see into the future.

Not sure where you got that.

 

[Schnee117]

Rewind
-By pressing , Shulk can set a spot on the map he wants to rewind to. By pressing again, he will slowly rewind to that area.
-Travels straight, and does not go through floors. If it hits a floor it will cancel.
-Will always take the fastest possible route back
-Cannot be done during hitstun.
-Doesn't grant invincibility
-Attacks can be done before, or after. By using an attack during Rewind, it will stretch out the hitbox and it's frames. Could be great for utilizing attacks like Backslash for example.

Shulk can't rewind time though, plus you're getting rid of his Monado Arts which are a big part of Xenoblade and his current play style. This is only meant to be minor changes but you've lost Shulk's core gameplay gimmick of using the right Arts at the right time.

Shulk can only see the future with the Monado and react accordingly. He's honestly fine as he is, minor stuff aside.

 

[FunAtParties]

Shulk can't rewind time though, plus you're getting rid of his Monado Arts which are a big part of Xenoblade and his current play style. This is only meant to be minor changes but you've lost Shulk's core gameplay gimmick of using the right Arts at the right time.

Shulk can only see the future with the Monado and react accordingly. He's honestly fine as he is, minor stuff aside.

I know I just had the idea thinking up all the time bending abilities it's why I added the excerpt that I'd be fine if the idea were to be used for other characters.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I mean, the only character who has something like that is Bayonetta.

And even then, its fairly overpowered.

I think time manipulation should be avoided.

 

[Chandeelure]

Inhale
-When inhale sucks up a projectile, it can copy the power of that projectile. So now for example if Ness Pk Fire's and Kirby sucks it up, Kirby can now PK fire.

-If Final Cutter is refected, and Kirby in turns sucks it up, Kirby gets the cutter hat, and can sling cutter-boomerangs

-Sucking up DDD will instead give Kirby the ability to use the hammer.

The first thing sounds super complicated, like my idea of Kirby copying all the Special moves XD
I think Kirby should be able to absorb proyectiles and then be able to throw them as stars... like in his games, that would also help him a lot in the competitive aspect IMO.

The second thing is impossible because Final Cutter is crap and has a lot of end lag and Inhale has a lot of start up, so you will never be able to suck your own cutter proyectile.

The third thing would be weird, like why Dedede gives you the Hammer ability, but, for example, Dr. Mario doesn't give you the Dr. Ability or something?

The copy abilities are fine as they are, I would just buff the power and speed of them and give Inhale more range.
The copy abilities are like Kirby's main gimmick and nobody uses them because it's hard to Inhale opponents and most abilities suck, with some exceptions like Shulk's and Olimar's.

 

[Schnee117]

I know I just had the idea thinking up all the time bending abilities it's why I added the excerpt that I'd be fine if the idea were to be used for other characters.

I'm aware but Swamp's context is small changes for the Smash 4 newcomers' move sets. It really doesn't fit any of them.

Plus Time manipulation in a fighting game is hard to get right because it's a balancing nightmare.

 

[FunAtParties]

The first thing sounds super complicated, like my idea of Kirby copying all the Special moves XD
I think Kirby should be able to absorb proyectiles and then be able to throw them as stars... like in his games, that would also help him a lot in the competitive aspect IMO.

The second thing is impossible because Final Cutter is crap and has a lot of end lag and Inhale has a lot of start up, so you will never be able to suck your own cutter proyectile.

The third thing would be weird, like why Dedede gives you the Hammer ability, but, for example, Dr. Mario doesn't give you the Dr. Ability or something?

The copy abilities are fine as they are, I would just buff the power and speed of them and give Inhale more range.
The copy abilities are like Kirby's main gimmick and nobody uses them because it's hard to Inhale opponents and most abilities suck, with some exceptions like Shulk's and Olimar's.

His final cutter can be buffed. In Smash 64 it's end lag was fairly fast. With that buff in mind, it can be done, reflected, and sucked up with no issue.

I just wanted to add a bit of uniqueness to the ability. Kirby is Smash's original take on the transformation archetype, I just don't think it plays a big enough part in his character.

@Drunkle Qrow That's fair, just wanted to share some ideas.

I put a lot of thought into the time manipulation concepts, and already thought about possible pitfalls. A lot of this is already addressed, many of the traits these attacks have you put Shulk at a disadvantage. Kind of a high-risk high reward thing.

Just to clear things up a bit, Rewind would be best for going for deep edgeguards. Outside of that, it's an attack that leaves Shulk vulnerable, with predictable, not so fast movement. It wasn't mentioned before, but Rewind only affects Shulk, not the opponent. It's just a movement option really.

I doubt the attack would be a serious issue, and if it was, things can be tweaked in order to make it less advantageous (glowing area where character left rewind, or requiring a charge). That's what the testing and balancing process is for after all.

As for Vision, I think this one has the potential to actually be broken. The charge time was added to the concept in order to not completely handcuff the opponent, but how long the charge should be is in question. Additional nerfs could be less slow down time, opponents hitbox staying active during slowdown, and multihit attacks being able to break out of it on second hit, I have more. It would be something that needs a lot of testing to get right, probably not the easiest thing to program either, it would definitely need a lot of attention.

If you have any specific criticisms for the attacks I can address them.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I just wanted to add a bit of uniqueness to the ability.

Now see that's the problem though.

You're focusing so much on uniqueness that you're forgetting things like balance and feasibility.

 

[Luminario]

To move discussion along, what kind of changes do you expect Smash 4 newcomers to get?

Not major moveset overhauls. Just little ones.

Things like having a different Bair then .

I think they'd change s default specials (especially Counter) or at least change Auto-Reticle to fire forward regardless of if it locked on to anyone.
They could also change durability gimmick, or at least let Arcwind and Arcfire be replaced for a short time with Wind and Fire when they're used up, allowing infinite uses of flurry/jab finisher and letting them have at least some recovery if Arcwind is used up.
Change s everything, oh my god. Balance him PLEASE. too kinda
could be updated to the New Leaf look, and could get moves changed to be more in tune with the games (umbrella spin utilt, toy hammer ftilt, etc)
While not a Smash 4 newcomer, an idea I had was to change side B to if he uses the kick and hits off a shield he falls back and if he continues on with the grab but hits the ground he stumbles and is open for punishes.

Meteor
-Kirby's old dash attack now allowed to use anywhere. Helps Kirby's recovery.

Now this idea I love. I'd also like Kirby to have so many more iconic copy abilities in his moveset and not just dash and specials. I mean, give dair a blatant Tornado effect, have nair be that Ice spin breath air attack, stuff like that.

 

[Megadoomer]

I don't know if this is an unusual opinion or not, but I'd prefer it if Ganondorf's default B (or just his B move, if custom moves are removed) was changed from Warlock Punch to Warlock Blade. I feel like it would help to differentiate him from Captain Falcon and make him feel more like Ganondorf.

 

[Opossum]

I just want Little Mac to get his pre-patch aerial Jolt Haymaker back.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

ow this idea I love. I'd also like Kirby to have so many more iconic copy abilities in his moveset and not just dash and specials. I mean, give dair a blatant Tornado effect, have nair be that Ice spin breath air attack, stuff like that.

Gotta remember, most of his normals are base on fighter and ninja.

Change s everything, oh my god. Balance him PLEASE

He is balanced, lol.

I don't say this often but "git gud."

Bayo though...

 

[Chandeelure]

His final cutter can be buffed. In Smash 64 it's end lag was fairly fast. With that buff in mind, it can be done, reflected, and sucked up with no issue.

I just wanted to add a bit of uniqueness to the ability. Kirby is Smash's original take on the transformation archetype, I just don't think it plays a big enough part in his character.

Final Cutter has always been slow in both start up and end lag, but yeah, it can be buffed I guess, even if Inhale still has a lot of start up... and the Final Cutter proyectile travels a super short distance and disappears quickly... yeah, it's impossible, and also a very random idea in my opinion.

But I agree, Kirby needs more things to make him unique and to make his transformations more important to his gameplay, because right now, Kirby uses like 3 or 4 moves like Forward Throw, Bair and Up Tilt, and all of them look boring.

Sadly, all his specials are bad... and not only his specials.

 

[Opossum]

Oh, I almost forgot.

[ahem]

Please make Pac-Man's grab not garbage.

Maybe a Pac-Man World reference or two as well.

 

[Schnee117]

With Kirby they don't want to cross the line of "Everything and the Kitchen Sink" so to speak. The moveset needs to flow and fit together otherwise you get a fighter that looks carelessly put together.

It wouldn't be "dancing" anymore if we crammed as much of Kirby's abilities as possible into a moveset.

His Inhale ability is a perfect representation of what the character is known for anyway.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Please make Pac-Man's grab not garbage.

is this a Star Vs reference


Yeah if they made Pac Man's grab better and F air better for a port I would probably play him more. Was my first character I tried when I bought 3DS but I just couldnt get over those 2 moves.

 

[Luminario]

Gotta remember, most of his normals are base on fighter and ninja.

Right, forgot fighter, he could still have more variety though, even though he's fine as is.

He is balanced, lol.

I don't say this often but "git gud."

Bayo though...

Balanced? Where? He's Little Mac holding the Ragnell with Samus' Charge Shot.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Balanced? Where? He's Little Mac holding the Ragnell with Samus' Charge Shot.

And is walled by projectiles and edgeguarded easily.

 

[FunAtParties]

Now see that's the problem though.

You're focusing so much on uniqueness that you're forgetting things like balance and feasibility.

How exactly? Please explain how this will make Kirby less balanced.

The copy ability is already in place to copy abilities, I'm just giving more depth to it. Instead of playing against Ness and having to deal with PK Flash, you can now inhale pk fire, and thunder as well. You don't end up with all three, just whatever you suck up, what's so ridiculous about that exactly? Sucking up DDD just gives you the hammer back, with this it's formerly Kirby's side b (I changed it remember). It doesn't take over Kirby's standard attacks, just his neutral special.

Balance wise, it does what it always did, make the match-up more like a ditto. This literally can only help balance the character.

 

[Chandeelure]

I forgot to say that Kirby needs his Slide Attack as his new Down Tilt.

Gotta remember, most of his normals are base on fighter and ninja.


He is balanced, lol.

I don't say this often but "git gud."

Bayo though...

Hmm I think the only Ninja attack Kirby has is Up Throw.
And most attacks are just random kicks that people assume are from Fighter Kirby, but they really don't appear in the games at all.
The ones I can recognize that are from Fighter Kirby are Jab, Side Smash and Up Smash/Up Air (with a different animation).

Also, if Cloud is a balanced character, then I guess more than half of the roster is garbage.
He is not OP, but he is definitely very good and not balanced or honest, there is a reason why he is 3 in the tier list.

 

[Munomario777]

I have been summoned... apparently.

Interesting topic of discussion, I guess I'll just go down the list of newcomers since nothing immediately springs to mind.

Spoiler

Rosalina

A cosmetic change I'd like to see is to have the color of your Luma depend on your alternate costume, to avoid confusion. Also, a possible change would be to have Launch Star depend on Luma, which turns into the slingshot like in Galaxy / Galaxy 2. This gives more of an impact to losing Luma, since Rosa's recovery is significantly gimped without Luma – her Up Special could be replaced by a short-ranged hover or something until it respawns. And this goes without saying, but things like Luma's insane priority on attacks and wonky knockback values should be changed.​

Koopalings

It'd be a good change to remove the silly Abandon Ship gimps that the opponent can pull on him. Aside from that, the main thing here would probably just be buffs and tweaks in various areas, such as his grab and killing options.​

Greninja

Don't have a lot of ideas for this guy. Maybe Shadow Sneak's charging period could allow standard attacks / aerials to be used during it, to combo into the teleport itself? That'd be fun. Should probably make the teleport itself a bit more punishable at a distance, too, to compensate. Also, its ability to cancel hitstun should be removed.​

Robin

A bit of added mobility, or reach on Robin's grab, would be nice. I'd also like to see one of Nosferatu's customs get the default spot, the one where the cloud is created a distance away. We don't have a ranged command-grab in the game as I recall, and it'd be interesting combined with the Thunder projectiles – make the foe shield at a distance in anticipation of a projectile, only to bypass it with a ranged grab. Oh, and the dash attack could be changed to be similar to Link's, in reference to an animation from Awakening.​

Lucina

I could see Lucina getting the Ganon treatment – keep the same moves, but give them a unique flair. Like how her Shield Breaker animation is different, more inexperienced- and almost reckless-looking. This could be extended to the rest of her moveset, such as giving her more distance on each step of Dancing Blade (an aggressive play that might get her into danger), the command-dash custom option for Shield Breaker, Crescent Slash on Up Special, an altered Counter, and similarly tweaked standard attacks.​

Corrin

Corrin's moveset is pretty alright overall. It could be neat to see Counter Surge replaced with some sort of full-on dragon transformation; maybe it'd be something that you have to work toward with a meter of some sort? Also, Dragon Lunge's non-kick options being made useful could be nice.​

Palutena

The main thing here would be to give most of her attacks more utility, through general buffs. Her default special set should also be changed; maybe Explosive Flame, Super Speed, Jump Glide, and Lightweight would work.​

Dark Pit

Like Lucina, Pittoo could get the Ganon treatment. I see him as more of an aggressive Pit, combined with aspects of Brawl Pit. So some of his moves become single-hit, combo-oriented moves, he becomes a bit faster but lighter, and his Up Special (Infinite Power of Flight), Side Special, and maybe Down Special could be reverted back to Pit's Brawl moves.​

Villager

This guy's uair and dair need to change, RNG isn't constructive on a move like this. Maybe the moves could become stronger if you use them less often / weaker if you spam them? Aside from that, Balloon Trip's balloons could serve to be a bit more gimpable, as the move's intended "gimmick" is a rare occurrence.​

Little Mac

Mac is really tricky in terms of design, since he's the swingiest character in the game; high highs and low lows. Maybe his recovery weakness could be helped a bit by making Straight Lunge's charge storable / making it a bit better distance-wise in midair? So you can recover if you're prepared and can get past the opponent's first edgeguard attempt, but you'll still need skill to make it back alive on your single Straight Lunge charge.​

Wii Fit Trainer

I'm not even sure where to begin with her, she is meant to be somewhat of a joke character. I'd probably just give her better combo potential if you do manage to land her awkward hitboxes, and maybe a bit of an easier time killing?​

Monado Boy

As for Shulk, the main thing he needs is slightly better frame data across the board. As for new ideas, one that I had was that Back Slash be replaced with Monado Purge, an energy projectile that has different properties depending on your current Art. Jump gives you a tall wall of a projectile, Speed is a quick beam, Shield is a barrier that blocks anything that comes at it, Buster is a multi-hit projectile, and Smash is an explosive projectile with big kill power. Maybe this could be on a recharge / only usable once per Art use? It'd also be nice if Vision were altered by your Arts, such as Speed making it a dash forward that's more combo-oriented or Jump making it a leaping slash that sends you both into the air for a follow-up. For that matter, Air Slash's second hit could go further forward while Speed is active.​

Duck Hunt

The main thing here is to just make his smashes actually usable, such as removing Forward Smash's random heights.​

Megaman

Flame Sword should have increased knockback, first off. It'd also be nice to have some kind of way to use Flame Wall like how it's actually used in the games (similar to Mii Gunner's sspec custom); maybe as a new Down Special?​

Pacman

Mainly just fix his grab, honestly. Maybe give him a tad better combo potential?​

Ryu

Ryu's pretty fine as he is.​

Cloud

Cloud's also alright, I'd say. Could probably do with a couple nerfs to his onstage game, and maybe charging Limit could be more of a commitment?​

Bayonetta

Finally, the Umbra Witch herself. I could see a few changes being made to her. Aside from patching some potentially broken techniques / toning down Witch Time / etc, I could also see her recovery in regards to Witch Twist being made more intuitive. For example, the double-jump "glitch" (?), where you jump and then immediately Witch Twist to keep your jump but refresh WT, could be removed. Bat Within and Bullet Arts could also bear to be more relevant; maybe Bat Within could have less endlag than a normal dodge and allow a counterattack with perfect timing, while Bullet Arts could be used to pressure shields by adding a bit of shieldstun / shield damage...? Bullet Arts in general are kind of awkward to work with, though.​

​

 

[FunAtParties]

I have been summoned... apparently.

Interesting topic of discussion, I guess I'll just go down the list of newcomers since nothing immediately springs to mind.

Spoiler

Rosalina

A cosmetic change I'd like to see is to have the color of your Luma depend on your alternate costume, to avoid confusion. Also, a possible change would be to have Launch Star depend on Luma, which turns into the slingshot like in Galaxy / Galaxy 2. This gives more of an impact to losing Luma, since Rosa's recovery is significantly gimped without Luma – her Up Special could be replaced by a short-ranged hover or something until it respawns. And this goes without saying, but things like Luma's insane priority on attacks and wonky knockback values should be changed.​

Koopalings

It'd be a good change to remove the silly Abandon Ship gimps that the opponent can pull on him. Aside from that, the main thing here would probably just be buffs and tweaks in various areas, such as his grab and killing options.​

Greninja

Don't have a lot of ideas for this guy. Maybe Shadow Sneak's charging period could allow standard attacks / aerials to be used during it, to combo into the teleport itself? That'd be fun. Should probably make the teleport itself a bit more punishable at a distance, too, to compensate. Also, its ability to cancel hitstun should be removed.​

Robin

A bit of added mobility, or reach on Robin's grab, would be nice. I'd also like to see one of Nosferatu's customs get the default spot, the one where the cloud is created a distance away. We don't have a ranged command-grab in the game as I recall, and it'd be interesting combined with the Thunder projectiles – make the foe shield at a distance in anticipation of a projectile, only to bypass it with a ranged grab. Oh, and the dash attack could be changed to be similar to Link's, in reference to an animation from Awakening.​

Lucina

I could see Lucina getting the Ganon treatment – keep the same moves, but give them a unique flair. Like how her Shield Breaker animation is different, more inexperienced- and almost reckless-looking. This could be extended to the rest of her moveset, such as giving her more distance on each step of Dancing Blade (an aggressive play that might get her into danger), the command-dash custom option for Shield Breaker, Crescent Slash on Up Special, an altered Counter, and similarly tweaked standard attacks.​

Corrin

Corrin's moveset is pretty alright overall. It could be neat to see Counter Surge replaced with some sort of full-on dragon transformation; maybe it'd be something that you have to work toward with a meter of some sort? Also, Dragon Lunge's non-kick options being made useful could be nice.​

Palutena

The main thing here would be to give most of her attacks more utility, through general buffs. Her default special set should also be changed; maybe Explosive Flame, Super Speed, Jump Glide, and Lightweight would work.​

Dark Pit

Like Lucina, Pittoo could get the Ganon treatment. I see him as more of an aggressive Pit, combined with aspects of Brawl Pit. So some of his moves become single-hit, combo-oriented moves, he becomes a bit faster but lighter, and his Up Special (Infinite Power of Flight), Side Special, and maybe Down Special could be reverted back to Pit's Brawl moves.​

Villager

This guy's uair and dair need to change, RNG isn't constructive on a move like this. Maybe the moves could become stronger if you use them less often / weaker if you spam them? Aside from that, Balloon Trip's balloons could serve to be a bit more gimpable, as the move's intended "gimmick" is a rare occurrence.​

Little Mac

Mac is really tricky in terms of design, since he's the swingiest character in the game; high highs and low lows. Maybe his recovery weakness could be helped a bit by making Straight Lunge's charge storable / making it a bit better distance-wise in midair? So you can recover if you're prepared and can get past the opponent's first edgeguard attempt, but you'll still need skill to make it back alive on your single Straight Lunge charge.​

Wii Fit Trainer

I'm not even sure where to begin with her, she is meant to be somewhat of a joke character. I'd probably just give her better combo potential if you do manage to land her awkward hitboxes, and maybe a bit of an easier time killing?​

Monado Boy

As for Shulk, the main thing he needs is slightly better frame data across the board. As for new ideas, one that I had was that Back Slash be replaced with Monado Purge, an energy projectile that has different properties depending on your current Art. Jump gives you a tall wall of a projectile, Speed is a quick beam, Shield is a barrier that blocks anything that comes at it, Buster is a multi-hit projectile, and Smash is an explosive projectile with big kill power. Maybe this could be on a recharge / only usable once per Art use? It'd also be nice if Vision were altered by your Arts, such as Speed making it a dash forward that's more combo-oriented or Jump making it a leaping slash that sends you both into the air for a follow-up. For that matter, Air Slash's second hit could go further forward while Speed is active.​

Duck Hunt

The main thing here is to just make his smashes actually usable, such as removing Forward Smash's random heights.​

Megaman

Flame Sword should have increased knockback, first off. It'd also be nice to have some kind of way to use Flame Wall like how it's actually used in the games (similar to Mii Gunner's sspec custom); maybe as a new Down Special?​

Pacman

Mainly just fix his grab, honestly. Maybe give him a tad better combo potential?​

Ryu

Ryu's pretty fine as he is.​

Cloud

Cloud's also alright, I'd say. Could probably do with a couple nerfs to his onstage game, and maybe charging Limit could be more of a commitment?​

Bayonetta

Finally, the Umbra Witch herself. I could see a few changes being made to her. Aside from patching some potentially broken techniques / toning down Witch Time / etc, I could also see her recovery in regards to Witch Twist being made more intuitive. For example, the double-jump "glitch" (?), where you jump and then immediately Witch Twist to keep your jump but refresh WT, could be removed. Bat Within and Bullet Arts could also bear to be more relevant; maybe Bat Within could have less endlag than a normal dodge and allow a counterattack with perfect timing, while Bullet Arts could be used to pressure shields by adding a bit of shieldstun / shield damage...? Bullet Arts in general are kind of awkward to work with, though.​

​

Yeah I did that, I enjoy your ideas, so sue me.

 

[Opossum]

is this a Star Vs reference

"If you want it to be." Surprisingly unintentional but hey let's go with it.

Yeah if they made Pac Man's grab better and F air better for a port I would probably play him more. Was my first character I tried when I bought 3DS but I just couldnt get over those 2 moves.

I never really had trouble with his Forward Air honestly. It's just the grab for me.

 

[Chandeelure]

A thing that Pac-Man needs is his death sound from his games.
It needs to sound when he is KO'd.