Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Michael the Spikester]

No Mirror Shield.
Dress design doesn't work for Palutena's kicks.
No legitimate counterpart to Angelic Wings
etc.

Guess we'll just have to wait and see then at this point I'll be incline to believe she's a semi-echo then if she gets in.

Who knows too maybe they'll give Medusa her own wings only more devilish or something. It's not too big of a stretch being she's suppose to be her opposite so I'd imagine she'd have almost the same abilities but dark.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

No Mirror Shield.
Dress design doesn't work for Palutena's kicks.
No legitimate counterpart to Angelic Wings
etc.

In other words, it's "use a design that matches with Palutena" or "make a semi-clone". I doubt he'd suddenly create a design for an easy echo. It's easiest to make her a semi-clone in this case. Yep, agreed, she doesn't fit with an Echo with this information. It's not so much the hair itself, it's that they can't remotely share similar animations and hitboxes with what you just said. Sounds impossible to me, really.

 

[Deleted member]

Guess we'll just have to wait and see then at this point I'll be incline to believe she's a semi-echo then if she gets in.

"Semi-echo"

What the **** is a "semi-echo"?

You mean a semi-clone? Like what I've been arguing she would have to be at most?

 

[Michael the Spikester]

"Semi-echo"

What the **** is a "semi-echo"?

You mean a semi-clone? Like what I've been arguing she would have to be at most?

Isn't echo the new term for clones anyways? That's what I'm saying it.

 

[-crump-]

I don't think so.

Would they need to release a statement if it was false info?

Pre-Smash 4, Corocoro put out some false information saying that Smash Run would support online, and Sakurai himself jumped on Twitter to correct the mistake. Not impossible that it just slipped by him and... everyone else this time, but it seems unlikely to me.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

A semi-echo? That doesn't make sense. If they're too different to not match the echo status, they're a clone. If they need even more than that, they're a semi-clone.

Semi-echo is a misleading term for "clone", which are characters who have enough differences to be impossible to be an echo. See: The entire Melee clone roster.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

A semi-echo? That doesn't make sense. If they're too different to not match the echo status, they're a clone. If they need even more than that, they're a semi-clone.

Semi-echo is a misleading term for "clone", which are characters who have enough differences to be impossible to be an echo. See: The entire Melee clone roster.

Here's the thing though. Isn't echo the new term for clones? Why shouldn't we use the term semi-echo then?

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

"Semi-echo"

What the **** is a "semi-echo"?

You mean a semi-clone? Like what I've been arguing she would have to be at most?

You can’t be serious

Sakurai gave clones a new name echos

Ever since that I have been calling characters “semi echo” instead of semi clone

Dr Mario is a semi echo of Mario for example

 

[Idon]

Isn't echo the new term for clones anyways? That's what I'm saying it.

Nope.
Echoes are a specific subset of clones that Smash defines as particularly close to their original.

Clones and semi-clones themselves are a fan-made term used to describe every character built off the template of another.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Here's the thing though. Isn't echo the new term for clones?

Clone has its own number.

Echo shares a number.

 

[Kotor]

Hey wait a minute. @GoldenYuiitusin I don't know what you're thinking of in terms what additional changes needs to be made with Medusa, but I checked her boss fight and noticed she's holding her staff with her left hand. Her official art also has her holding it with her left hand.

 

[ThatOneAnon]

Pre-Smash 4, Corocoro put out some false information saying that Smash Run would support online, and Sakurai himself jumped on Twitter to correct the mistake. Not impossible that it just slipped by him and... everyone else this time, but it seems unlikely to me.

I'm of the opinion that you'd have to actually be stupid to not think there's 108 stages now. That's how sure I am that Corocoro's info was accurate.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Ah thanks for the correction then guys.

Also were starting to debate about Medusa. Awesome!!!!

 

[Xgears]

A bit off topic but what happened to the guy and his friend who leaked the Smash 4 roster from the ESRB? Did he get in trouble?

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Leaking offends you? Are you for real?

We already dealt with this. Drop it.

No, Medusa likely won't be in the base game as an echo of Palutena. Sorry Medusa fans, but I wouldn't get my hopes up. Same with Geno fans. Verge's new comment shows that they don't care about Geno being "leaked," which could be taken that he's not important enough to keep top secret. At the very least, there is now the real possibility that the Square Enix rep isn't Geno, and ya'll should come to terms with that.

So, who do you want to get revealed next, and who do you think it'll be? I'd love to see Sora, but I expect Incineroar and/or Ken.

I mean, any opportunity for people to get mad at Square Enix is a good thing in my book, because if any company deserves to get **** on, it's Square Enix.

Bro what the **** did Square Enix do to you? I get they dropped the ball with Deus Ex Mankind Divided with all that DLC ****, and Final Fantasy 15 could've been better on release, but there are easily worse companies, like EA or Ubisoft (outside of Ubisoft Montreal).

A bit off topic but what happened to the guy and his friend who leaked the Smash 4 roster from the ESRB? Did he get in trouble?

If you're talking about the Ninka/Vaanrose leak, Ninka and Vaan are both completely fine, and according to Vaan himself his source still has their job at Nintendo. We have no clue about the ESRB leaker though.

 

[Icedragonadam]

Pre-Smash 4, Corocoro put out some false information saying that Smash Run would support online, and Sakurai himself jumped on Twitter to correct the mistake. Not impossible that it just slipped by him and... everyone else this time, but it seems unlikely to me.

Well considering how much a big deal was made about that "error" on the internet and the 108 being in big bolded letters. It wouldn't be easy for something like that to just slip by undetected.

 

[-crump-]

I'm of the opinion that you'd have to actually be stupid to not think there's 108 stages now. That's how sure I am that Corocoro's info was accurate.

Yeah, the fact that the 108 stages thing was prominent enough to have it’s own spot on the magazine page, and the fact that there was a weird amount of space missing at the bottom when they showed the stage select menu in the Direct, makes me think there must be a few new stages we haven’t seen yet.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Hey wait a minute. @GoldenYuiitusin I don't know what you're thinking of in terms what additional changes needs to be made with Medusa, but I checked her boss fight and noticed she's holding her staff with her left hand. Her official art also has her holding it with her left hand.

OMG is that Numbuh 5?

 

[Michael the Spikester]

No, Medusa likely won't be in the base game as an echo of Palutena. Sorry Medusa fans, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

Well whether Medusa doesn't get in or not. I'm still happy with what I got.



That and I'll still be shipping her with King K. Rool.

 

[Luigi The President]

A bit off topic but what happened to the guy and his friend who leaked the Smash 4 roster from the ESRB? Did he get in trouble?

ESRB Leaker was murdered

 

[Deleted member]

You can’t be serious

Sakurai gave clones a new name echos

Ever since that I have been calling characters “semi echo” instead of semi clone

Dr Mario is a semi echo of Mario for example

>"You can't be serious"
>Thinks Echoes mean the same thing as clones of past

Shh....the adults are talking.

 

[ZephyrZ]

If Medusa could work as an echo depends on how many creative liberties they're willing to take.

Medusa is never shown to have wings, but Palutena only has had wings in her statue. Her F-smash and D-smash were creative liberties on Smash 4's part, so they could easily do the same for Medusa by giving her black wings instead...if they're willing.

Medusa doesn't carry a shield, so they'd either have to swap out her dash attack and bair or change out those moves for something else or take another liberty and give Medusa a shield. They might also have to reanimate that down special a little bit as well.

And then there's that up-air. I suppose you could give Medusa a dark version of Palutena's halo and it would sort of make sense. I've seen someone suggest making the snakes match the hitbox but I'm not really sure how that'd work.

Overall, I really wouldn't count on it happening. That'd be a lot of work for an echo fighter only a few people asked for, even compared to Dark Samus.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I do think it is possible to simply just give Medusa her own wings and its not really big of a stretch to be honest nor hard being she's suppose to be Palutena's opposite.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Here's the thing though. Isn't echo the new term for clones? Why shouldn't we use the term semi-echo then?

No. Echoes are a type of clone.

Clone is still an official term. Echoes are effectively upgraded costumes by design. Clones simply use the character as a base, heavily based upon their skeleton, but not their proportions specifically. Isabelle is a semi-clone because she uses Villager as a base. Dr. Mario is a clone because he has extremely different attributes that an Echo cannot have. Lucina is an Echo because she has no severe differences from Marth. Her proportions are the same with barely an inch in difference. She lacks the tipper, which isn't an extreme difference. Extreme differences are completely different moves that don't work remotely the same. Even in Chrom's case, his Up B still is heavily based upon another character(Ike, who had the same general body build as Roy, Chrom, and Marth, thus, it was easy to use). He's the most special of Echoes, but still isn't a regular clone even with this.

Outside of Final Smashes, clones have vastly different hitboxes, weights, hurtboxes, and knockback. Dr. Mario actually came close to being an Echo in Melee, but he still has other unique attributes that separated that. Some of the Melee clones were kind of close in general(Falco, Pichu, as well). Roy, Ganondorf, and Young Link were way more different in comparison.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Verge's new comment shows that they don't care about Geno being "leaked," which could be taken that he's not important enough to keep top secret. At the very least, there is now the real possibility that the Square Enix rep isn't Geno, and ya'll should come to terms with that.

He was speculating.

He uses "probably."

plus tbh it'd make no sense to put Geno on a list if they're not gonna use him against leakers, and Vergeben likely wouldn't know what the SE higher-ups are thinking.

 

[Frostwraith]

Echoes are Lucina/Dark Pit style clones introduced in Smash 3DS/Wii U. The kind of clones that barely are their own characters since they share the same attributes as their base characters, only slightly changing at least some move properties.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

No. Echoes are a type of clone.

Clone is still an official term. Echoes are effectively upgraded costumes by design. Clones simply use the character as a base, heavily based upon their skeleton, but not their proportions specifically. Isabelle is a semi-clone because she uses Villager as a base. Dr. Mario is a clone because he has extremely different attributes that an Echo cannot have. Lucina is an Echo because she has no severe differences from Marth. Her proportions are the same with barely an inch in difference. She lacks the tipper, which isn't an extreme difference. Extreme differences are completely different moves that don't work remotely the same. Even in Chrom's case, his Up B still is heavily based upon another character(Ike, who had the same general body build as Roy, Chrom, and Marth, thus, it was easy to use). He's the most special of Echoes, but still isn't a regular clone even with this.

Outside of Final Smashes, clones have vastly different hitboxes, weights, hurtboxes, and knockback. Dr. Mario actually came close to being an Echo in Melee, but he still has other unique attributes that separated that. Some of the Melee clones were kind of close in general(Falco, Pichu, as well). Roy, Ganondorf, and Young Link were way more different in comparison.

Already covered by the above but thanks anyways for the input. I know now they're both different.

 

[Arcanir]

No Mirror Shield.
Dress design doesn't work for Palutena's kicks.
No legitimate counterpart to Angelic Wings
etc.

The wings can easily be argued around thanks to Dark Samus since canonically she shouldn't be able to use Screw Attack as MP1!Samus lacks that move to copy and she never uses a variant of it, but that didn't stop the move from being used in the moveset. So theoretically nothing stops Sakurai from making a counterpart based on that since caveats have already been made in that regard. Similarly, the shield is only used for a couple moves in Palutena's kit so it wouldn't be unfeasible to change or tweak accordingly while still keeping her within the bounds of the Echo distinction.

The dress design is a stronger point, that part depends on how much work Sakurai would be willing to do to make it look right.

 

[Nekoo]

He was speculating.

He uses "probably."

plus tbh it'd make no sense to put Geno on a list if they're not gonna use him against leakers, and Vergeben likely wouldn't know what the SE higher-ups are thinking.

I 100% agree with you it was just speculation, but you have to admit one things.
It makes no sense to put Geno on a list with obviously less likely Square Rep, keep that rep secret, and put when everyone and their grandma with a 256/kb internet connection know that Geno is the most likely one right?

 

[Cosmic77]

After reading Sakurai's explanation on why Isabelle is a unique character, I've concluded that Sakurai himself decides whether or not a character should/can be an Echo.

Could Medusa work as an Echo? Well, if Daisy can magically work despite not ever being associated with half of Peach's abilities prior to Ultimate, I don't see why Medusa wouldn't be able to take a few liberties. Doesn't mean I think that's the best way to represent her, but Sakurai could get it to work if he really tried.

 

[Dee Dude]

So...shouldn’t people be vouching for clones/semi clones instead of echos regarding Shadow, Ninten, Medusa etc if you’re just asking for characters with virtually zero differences gameplay wise?

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

The wiki has a better grasp of how the different terms of echoes and semi clones.
https://www.ssbwiki.com/clone

 

[SmashChu]

We already dealt with this. Drop it.

No, Medusa likely won't be in the base game as an echo of Palutena. Sorry Medusa fans, but I wouldn't get my hopes up. Same with Geno fans. Verge's new comment shows that they don't care about Geno being "leaked," which could be taken that he's not important enough to keep top secret. At the very least, there is now the real possibility that the Square Enix rep isn't Geno, and ya'll should come to terms with that.

So, who do you want to get revealed next, and who do you think it'll be? I'd love to see Sora, but I expect Incineroar and/or Ken.

I want to point this out as people take everything they hear nowadays.

First, Square Enix isn't making this game, Nintendo and Namco Bandai are. Why would any Square employees know who is in the game save for some people at the top. There wouldn't be a need to spread false information as most people wouldn't know anything related to Smash Bros. Barely anyone at SE has any involvement in the project. Second, if you look at Verge's history, he does this stuff all the time. He especially did it with Soul Caliber. He made a comment once that you can totally influence what Namco is doing. A community manager has even offhandedly said he's full of ****. He's doing it to get attention without saying anything new.

 

[Chrono.]

The term semi-clone is pretty silly at this point considering the only characters who "own" that term are pretty much unique aside from their specials being sorta similar in some cases.

But Isabelle being considered one kinda baffles me, yeah she gets Pocket and her Balloon recovery is rather similar but... She's completely unique otherwise.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I 100% agree with you it was just speculation, but you have to admit one things.
It makes no sense to put Geno on a list with obviously less likely Square Rep, keep that rep secret, and put when everyone and their grandma with a 256/kb internet connection know that Geno is the most likely one right?

Well, he didn't say Geno WAS on the list.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I 100% agree with you it was just speculation, but you have to admit one things.
It makes no sense to put Geno on a list with obviously less likely Square Rep, keep that rep secret, and put when everyone and their grandma with a 256/kb internet connection know that Geno is the most likely one right?

From what it sounds like, they just care about leakers in general, so they probably don't care about their characters being speculated, just that if they see a credible leaker or their own employees give out names, they'll take action.

 

[hposter]

calling it now, new song is from a general series
might eat my words in a few minutes but hey

 

[Untouch]

Incredibly anti-climatically... it's tomodatchi life!

 

[Zinith]

Wait, what's this about Medusa?

 

[CannonStreak]

Afternoon On The Island from Tomodachi Life is the music for today.

https://www.smashbros.com/en_US/sound/index.html