Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[IronTed]

By becoming more accessible by next extension they've become easier.

Why shouldn't dragon and psychic types be the strongest?

I never understood the modern gaming obsession to have a balanced game over a fun one.

Mw2 is incredibly unbalanced but extremely fun it's why we are delighted to have it back.

If they want back and 'fixed the problems it would just be boring.

Are you seriously defending Gen 1's balance?

 

[Opossum]

For the record I


I've never grinded in Pokemon though and found the difficulty balanced. If you grind in ANY Rpg eventually it will become easy that's a given.

I played gen 6 with no xp share and beat the whole game with my started extremely easily.

Literally every Pokémon game is easy if you only use your starter.

 

[KMDP]

Why did they even remove the rustling grass again? I really thought that was one of the better modern gameplay innovations for the series.

Didn't someone like Jun'ichi Masuda reveal that they intentionally leave out certain mechanics between Pokémon games?

I think it was said around the time of Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, but I can't remember what specifically was said.

Pokemon games aren't easier nowadays, just more accessible. The reason people think the older games are harder is because they were badly balanced and severely limited in options.
Gem 1 had a lot of weird bugs and glitches that didn't make things work the way they were intended, Pokemon balance was all over the place because GF didn't know yet how to properly balance the games, movesets were limited, some types barely had any moves(looking at you Ghost) and certain types were severely limited(Ghost and Dragon had one/two evolutionary lines until Gen 3).
Sabrina and Lance aren't hard, Psychic and Dragon were just OP. Johto wasn't hard, it just has a terrible level curve.
I'd rather kids have the Pokemon games we have today then make them like the old ones. Sure, any kid CAN beat those games but it's certainly not as fun when they all just wanna catch and use their favorite Pokemon rather than spend hours or days grinding.

Not that I don't like me some old-school bull**** myself, and I definitely wouldn't mind it, there's a reason why I basically only play Nuzlockes now.

Also, if you're going to complain about Gen 6 and Gen 7's difficulties, please turn off the Exp Share first. I can't count on my hands how many times I've heard "the Exp Share makes it too easy!" when the answer to that is "have you tried turning it off?"

Speaking of Psychic and Dragon being OP, I believe Lugia was made Psychic/Flying because Psychic was "a powerful type".

Considering the fact that until Gen 3, the Dragon type was just the Dratini line and Kingdra, and the Ghost type was just the Gastly line and Mismagius, I wonder what Pokémon were left out of the 40 they cut from Red and Green, and how many were Dragon and Ghost.

 

[lightdrago]

By becoming more accessible by next extension they've become easier.

Why shouldn't dragon and psychic types be the strongest?

I never understood the modern gaming obsession to have a balanced game over a fun one.

Mw2 is incredibly unbalanced but extremely fun it's why we are delighted to have it back.

If they want back and 'fixed the problems it would just be boring.

Are you really saying a broken game = a fun game? That's illogical. Balance is key for just about everything.

 

[BlueMagician]

Gen 1's worst part was around Cerulean City. Once you jumped the ledge from Mt. Moon, you were stuck between two different bosses and if you couldn't beat either of them you were resigned to grind EXP from weak Pokemon in a patch of grass west of Cerulean. Not exactly what I'd call perfect design. This problem isn't fixed in FRLG, either.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

>Generation 2
>Perfect difficulty

Johto has one hell of a level gap, especially in the latter half.

If you want perfect difficult, I'd direct you to either Platinum or Black/White 2. Those games have perfect difficulty.

Black and White 2 were way too easy. Yeah the latter game for Gen 2 was easier than the starting half but it actually made you feel like you were growing more powerful as you go only to stress that your not the best yet when you hit the elite 4. Plus, Blue and Red are no slouch, for that matter, none of the Kanto Gym leaders are. Yeah, the latter game is less balanced than the early game but Black 2/ White 2 was never really difficult. You had to try incredibly hard, or be really bad, to white out at any point in that game.

 

[P.Kat]

I understand you guys getting frustrated waiting for the direct, I'm a little confused why they haven't put out a single statement regarding it yet, but you're all acting like this is all you have in your lives and you're being starved. Play some vidya, replay some vidya, read a book, work out, go out some. There's likely a lot to look forward to in the direct, but I refuse to believe so many of you have absolutely nothing to do other than wait for this.

I can only bash my head against Godmaster for so long though, time to play some other games.

Despite me wanting anything Smash related from the Direct, I'm more concerned with getting my Physical copy of Okami for Switch delivered down here, It feel like it's taking forever, and Tropical Storm Isaac coming here around Thursday, and Friday doesn't help either.

Yeah I agree that Gen 2 was very balanced difficult wise and the game had a great post game with Kanto.

The gen 3 remakes of gen 1 were also really solid difficulty wise and fixed many off the issues in gen 1.

I feel that's the balanced difficulty.pokemom should be aimed at. Accessible yet a fun challenge for all difficulties to encourage some critical and strategic thinking skills.

In the past I had to think about damaging and putting a wild Pokemon to sleep, have low damage moves to to make sure they don't faint, and supply management of Poke Balls.

What do kids have to think about when shaking a joycon to catch a Pokemon? Teaches them nothing.

Another thing to be thankful for the 2nd Gen for is False Swipe

Just False Swipe

False Swipe is your friend in Pokémon.

F to all of us who'll get hit by Florence/Isaac those days

My prayers are with all of us in the path of the two storms, especially those in the path of Florence cause it keeps getting stronger. Meanwhile Isaac has a good chance of decreasing in strength by Thursday, Friday.

It's not increasing in intensity like Irma did, and at most it'll be a CAT 1, if not a tropical storm with heavy torrential downpour affecting us Thursday, and Friday. We still need to prepare of course, but it's not looking as bad as Irma did, let's just hope it keeps dying down.

 

[WaxPython]

You say that exp. share makes the game easier, then state that you beat the game easily with no exp. share on.

Well to be fair I had started out with having it on as I assumed that's what the game wanted me to do for a fair challenge.

Then I quickly saw how ridiculous things were getting and promptly turned it off and still had an incredibly easy game.

With XP share on I can't imagine anyone having any sort of challenge in the game tbh.

At least gen 3 had the battle frontier which limited Pokemon to level 50 or 100 and again was a genuine fair challenge.

 

[Slavic]

For the record I


I've never grinded in Pokemon though and found the difficulty balanced. If you grind in ANY Rpg eventually it will become easy that's a given.

I played gen 6 with no xp share and beat the whole game with my started extremely easily.

I mean using your starter exclusively is the most efficient way to beat these games, since they have good stats, good movepools, and will gain an excessive amount more experience than if they were in a team.

I never got into 4th gen or after with this, but I did a bug-type only challenge for the first three generations and blatantly still didn't make them that much harder. Nuzlockes are difficult but not for ways that I enjoy, it's just hard to make these games difficult.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You people should just do what I do and play Gen 6 and 7 with rotation.

I've played every generation extensively and it's the most fun I've had in Pokemon.

 

[Pyra]

I never understood the modern gaming obsession to have a balanced game over a fun one.

Idunno, I have a lot more fun the way Pokemon is now than if, theoretically, it was skewed towards any particular type because then instead of using types I might actually wanna use why wouldn't I just be boring and use the objectively strongest things and steamroll everything lol

That sounds boring to me

 

[Deleted member]

Literally every Pokémon game is easy if you only use your starter.

Unless you pick Charmander or Chikorita. :V

 

[Pacman High Tier]

I found some points in Gen 7 pretty difficult, specifically the totems - thought ultimately it depends on what Pokemon you use. I used a Ferrothorn on Ultra Necrozma and i think it was Gyro Ball that oneshotted it. A lot of people online seemed to find it hard, though. I found other bits more difficult like the Araquanid totem. It all depends on your setup - or if you grind. Gen 6 was a pushover though, even though I enjoyed it.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The issue with Pokemon's difficulty is that the franchise REFUSES to add difficulty options because it was done poorly in Black and White 2, where they have to be unlocked by either beating the main game or linking with a player who already unlocked them, and the difficulty modes were version exclusive too. The best way to make a Pokemon game more challenging is by letting us choose to skip tutorials and letting us have an optional difficulty option that raises enemy trainer levels and boosts their AI and maybe even give them some extra items

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Octopath wasn’t first party and Aces wasn’t really a huge title.

Let’s Go (as much as people don’t care about it) and Ultimate are their big system-selling titles this year.

Even though it wasn’t a 1st Party, ‘‘twas still a major exclusive game for the Switch, and I wouldn’t say Aces wasn’t a huge title (though not as big of a deal as Super Mario Party)

Let's Go isn't a true mainline Pokemon, Aces is more like a smaller game to fill in the gaps and Octopath was made by Square not Nintendo

It’s a remake of the original games with elements of Go, still considered a main title (regardless of it being a remake or not). It’s like Fire Emblem where their remakes still count as a main title, only they also count as sequels in a way

Those aren’t exactly what I’d call “big games”

Not on the level of a zelda, smash, or mario anyway. If the let’s go games were actual core pkmn games then yeah I could see it, but really smash is the only big unreleased 2018 title. The only other thing that arguably could be considered big would be the xenoblade2 dlc.

Smash Ultimate
Pokémon Let’s Go
Super Paper Mario...and also you said those games aren’t at the level of Mario, yet Aces is a Mario game in itself

And if dlc expansions were to be counted, then you would have the Octo Expansion pack included aswell

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Modern Pokemon games aren't designed for one to just pick a team of six and stick to it.They want you to experiment in the journey and make it possible. That's why they did things like the EXP share.


That's why I'd argue it's good game design. I no longer have to limit my choice to six out of 800.

 

[Deleted member]

I love HGSS, it's one of my favorite games of all time and probably my favorite to Nuzlocke but good god is the level curve BAD. And that's not to mention the Johto Pokemon you're locked out of until Kanto(unless you safari zone grind but lol) and the ****ING WHIRL ISLANDS I ****ING HATE THAT THING.
BW has the best level curve imo, I never felt the need to grind and Audinos existed if I did find myself in need. I keep seeing B2W2 being mentioned as an example of a good level curve but I only played it twice, and that was a long time ago so yeah, probably should give it another go.

Why shouldn't dragon and psychic types be the strongest?

I never understood the modern gaming obsession to have a balanced game over a fun one.

These are actual words you just typed, huh.

Didn't someone like Jun'ichi Masuda reveal that they intentionally leave out certain mechanics between Pokémon games?

I think it was said around the time of Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, but I can't remember what specifically was said.

Speaking of Psychic and Dragon being OP, I believe Lugia was made Psychic/Flying because Psychic was "a powerful type".

Considering the fact that until Gen 3, the Dragon type was just the Dratini line and Kingdra, and the Ghost type was just the Gastly line and Mismagius, I wonder what Pokémon were left out of the 40 they cut from Red and Green, and how many were Dragon and Ghost.

Nah, Psychic became **** once Dark types were introduced and the Ghost glitch was fixed.

 

[Pyra]

The issue with Pokemon's difficulty is that the franchise REFUSES to add difficulty options because it was done poorly in Black and White 2, where they have to be unlocked by either beating the main game or linking with a player who already unlocked them, and the difficulty modes were version exclusive too. The best way to make a Pokemon game more challenging is by letting us choose to skip tutorials and letting us have an optional difficulty option that raises enemy trainer levels and boosts their AI and maybe even give them some extra items

That would be a great idea tbh

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Unless you pick Charmander or Chikorita. :V

Fenekin was a pain for me to use in XY. especially with Grant's Rock types.

 

[MSmariosonic]

I never understood the modern gaming obsession to have a balanced game over a fun one.

Because balanced gameplay is fun?

I'd rather have balanced gameplay than lie to myself.

Balance is essential in a video game.

The reason why I always stick with SF most of the time is just because the games feel so balanced compared to other fighters.

 

[Rockaphin]

Unless you pick Charmander or Chikorita. :V

I was gonna say it, but you beat me.

Brock and Misty are ridiculous in Red if you just use Charmander. Lance isn't a cake walk either.

 

[Q-Long]

Its no fun if theres no challenge. I don't need every game to be Dark Souls or Ninja Gaiden, but I don't want to steamroll through enemies either.

Kirby is the perfect example of chill yet challenging at times.

 

[WaxPython]

Are you really saying a broken game = a fun game? That's illogical. Balance is key for just about everythin

No broken is stuff that makes the game unplayable like sonic 06. I'm talking about unbalanced where on it's clear this item is obviously sueorior to this item. Something like that.

For me it makes sense for dragon and psychic types to be the most powerful so I don't see it as an issue.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

The problem with the EXP Share is that people are always going to gravitate towards making use of whatever advantage they are handed, as a game designer you're always going to have to assume that people will take the easy way out, even if it hurts their overall experience. It's also impossible to tune your game's difficulty around it, what I experienced in Gen 7 was that when you have it turned on the game is way too easy, but if you turn it off you have to grind way too much (it's not difficult, you just end up falling behind), it means you constantly have to switch it on and off to try and hit the right sweetspot, and it becomes a bit of a messy experience as a result. Hiding a difficulty toggle behind several UI screens is also pretty bad, although it's obviously done so kids don't accidentally turn it off.

I really like the idea behind being able to choose your difficulty in Pokémon, but I don't like the execution at all, it's just not very well thought out. I see no reason why we can't just have a good old fashioned 'choose your difficulty' when starting a game, as long as it only affects the main story. But then again, we're not allowed more than one save slot either, which is another baffling decision, so that might be why.

 

[Pacman High Tier]

I believe you weren't allowed multiple save slots in Pokemon as an incentive to buy both. But in Let's Go you can have multiple saves on different Switch profiles, which is a step in the right direction.

 

[lightdrago]

Unless you pick Charmander or Chikorita. :V

Torterra is my favorite, but just relying on him when I was a kid was a stupid move on my part lol. Half of the Elite Four is strong against him and the Gyms are certainly not all that nice. To this day I still hate Candice.

 

[Pyra]

No broken is stuff that makes the game unplayable like sonic 06. I'm talking about unbalanced where on it's clear this item is obviously sueorior to this item. Something like that.

For me it makes sense for dragon and psychic types to be the most powerful so I don't see it as an issue.

they have pokemon that are clearly superior to other pokemon

they're typically the gods and legends of the pokemon world

doesn't make 'em any less capturable by a 10 year old though

 

[KMDP]

Balance is essential in a video game.

Ah, that's what we should do.

Make Thanos the developer of all future video games.

 

[Deleted member]

Why shouldn't dragon and psychic types be the strongest?

I never understood the modern gaming obsession to have a balanced game over a fun one.

"My favorite Pokémon aren't completely dominant in the meta anymore, so the games aren't fun now."

"Why can't you people just let me have fun being cheap instead of wanting things balanced?"

 

[WaxPython]

they have pokemon that are clearly superior to other pokemon

Well yeah and most legendaries are psychic type.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Kirby is the perfect example of chill yet challenging at times.

Yeah, Kirby's Adventure was a breeze... until I got to the final boss. Still haven't beaten it to this day...

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Ah, that's what we should do.

Make Thanos the developer of all future video games.

No because he'll cut the content and expect us to buy the expansion pass to get the rest

 

[Pakky]

Because balanced gameplay is fun?

I'd rather have balanced gameplay than lie to myself.

Balance is essential in a video game.

The reason why I always stick with SF most of the time is just because the games feel so balanced compared to other fighters.

That's so true its actually scary, I thought Abigail was going to turn the game into a clown show, but he didn't and EVO was ****ing dank to watch, loved it.

For me it makes sense for dragon and psychic types to be the most powerful so I don't see it as an issue.

Because the competitive scene becomes trash when you don't balance things out.

Fairies fix SO much.

 

[IronTed]

Well yeah and most legendaries are psychic type.

That is not true though?

 

[staindgrey]

Well to be fair I had started out with having it on as I assumed that's what the game wanted me to do for a fair challenge.

Then I quickly saw how ridiculous things were getting and promptly turned it off and still had an incredibly easy game.

With XP share on I can't imagine anyone having any sort of challenge in the game tbh.

At least gen 3 had the battle frontier which limited Pokemon to level 50 or 100 and again was a genuine fair challenge.

Last thing I'll say on it because I'm getting bored of the conversation:

By saying you "can't imagine anyone having any sort of challenge in the game," I think you really mean you "can't imagine anyone like me having any sort of challenge in the game".

I remember Pokemon Red being really hard. You know why? Because I was seven. Keep in mind that our cognitive and problem solving skills get better as we age, and our gaming similarly gets better and more efficient the more we play. Your current perspective isn't the perspective of everyone else who plays the game.

Pokemon is intended for children. It's also enjoyed by adults. The reason Nuzlocke even exists is because adults found playing a children's game too easy. You can make arguments that more recent Pokemon games might be easier than earlier Pokemon games for various specific reasons, but the fact of the matter is that the earlier Pokemon games were never difficult to begin with. Pokemon games exist to sell cards, toys, movies, TV shows, etc. They want as many kids to feel accomplished playing the game as possible. It's by design.

 

[AlphaSSB]

My biggest complaint with the recent Pokemon games are just how much they hold your hand. I thought X/Y was pretty bad with this, but in US/UM, it feels like you can't take more than a few steps without being interrupted by another hand-holding sequence. Things look even worse with the Let's Go games, like being unable to challenge a gym unless you have a Pokemon with a typing stronger than theirs. Seeing as how the Let's Go games aren't main series titles, I don't think we'll see hand holding to that degree in the next main series titles. At least, I hope.

 

[Slavic]

No broken is stuff that makes the game unplayable like sonic 06. I'm talking about unbalanced where on it's clear this item is obviously sueorior to this item. Something like that.

For me it makes sense for dragon and psychic types to be the most powerful so I don't see it as an issue.

Granted, if Dragons and Psychics were by the far the most powerful, and you used them on your team, it would make the game pretty easy then, yea?

 

[Pyra]

Granted, if Dragons and Psychics were by the far the most powerful, and you used them on your team, it would make the game pretty easy then, yea?

Good thing they got balanced

 

[WaxPython]

"My favorite Pokémon aren't completely dominant in the meta anymore, so the games aren't fun now."

"Why can't you people just let me have fun being cheap instead of wanting things balanced?"

Why is it cheap? So In smash we admit tier exist some fighters are better than others.

Is it cheap if people play as tip tiers and bit bottom tiers because they want to win as much as possible?

Is it being cheap when you get what you want out of a game?

 

[MSmariosonic]

There's less diversity if the playerbase would mostly just stick to dragon and psychic types wouldn't you say?