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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Don't want incineroar. Much rather Blue with Arcanine, Rhyson, and Alakazam.

Or Sceptile, Gengar, Garchomp, Salamance, Dragonite, and/or Genescect.

They're just better designs imo than yet another fire type.
You say "yet another fire type" as if Charizard wasn't the only one we have. ....and go and suggest Arcanine. "Yet another" Fire type.

And Salamence, who is basically a stereotypical fire-breathing dragon.....just like Charizard.....
And Dragonite....who while is ironically less of a stereotypical fire-breathing dragon than Salamence, is much more like Charizard in design and concept than Incineroar ever would be.....

And while we're getting types into this, since apparently a second Fire type is a big deal, you suggest "yet another" Grass type and "yet another" Psychic type (one which would actually have a similar fighting style to Mewtwo, when you get down to how Alakazam works).

....yeah, methinks you didn't think this through.
 
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MojoRobo

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A defensive character based entirely around counters and poking. Not like the characters with a counter, I'm talking straight up a ton of special moves being based on counters. Like Hakumen's drive or Geese's counter grabs.
Oh on top of that:
Stance character: Based on going into different stances and getting almost completely new movesets from it, or just getting access to limited movement with powerful attacks. Think Johnny from Guilty Gear or Yuzuriha from UNiST.
Bizarre movement: Not a traditional archetype, but chars like Yoshimitsu from Tekken and Izanami from Blazblue come to mind.
Random Item: Pretty self-explanatory, a character that pulls out items decided entirely by RNG and either throws them like a projectile or equips them to add new moves to their moveset for a limited amount of uses.
 

Dee Dude

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The main reason nobody is talking about them is that Sakurai said he hopes we don't expect too many newcomers in this game, and the sheer amount of Echo Fighters and limited amount of new stages seems to further evidence that we aren't going to get the same amount of new content that we've become accustomed to, meaning things such as "WTF" and retro characters are likely in danger of not having high enough priority to make it in over the fan favorite picks that Sakurai seems to be favoring this time (or more relevant picks such as Inklings or a new Pokémon). Further silencing talks of retro newcomers is the early reveal of fan-favorite retro representative Takamaru as an Assist Trophy, leaving few obvious picks.
You think Sakurai is only gonna go for the obvious predicted picks? lol.

He’s listening alright but he isn’t going for every fan-favorite out there hence why Takamaru isn’t playable.

Taka is Retro yeah but that could just mean he isn’t going for this installment’s Pit/Ice Climber but rather it’s Duck Hunt/ROB.

I could be wrong but it’s very unlikely we won’t get a oddball in Ultimate, plus it’ll be boring without one to shock us.
 
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OurBraveHero

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Heads up; There are a couple of people going around finding posts on twitter about the leaks and being like "yo he shared it with me, it's real" and it's just the ****ty quality videos they're sharing. Either they're really that gullible or he's got some accomplices trying to trick people, because they're seriously just going all over twitter and basically acting like that one guy is a prophet/martyr because he deleted his account to pretend Nintendo got him.
 
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Chrono.

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Oh on top of that:
Stance character: Based on going into different stances and getting almost completely new movesets from it, or just getting access to limited movement with powerful attacks. Think Johnny from Guilty Gear or Yuzuriha from UNiST.
Bizarre movement: Not a traditional archetype, but chars like Yoshimitsu from Tekken and Izanami from Blazblue come to mind.
Random Item: Pretty self-explanatory, a character that pulls out items decided entirely by RNG and either throws them like a projectile or equips them to add new moves to their moveset for a limited amount of uses.
Wouldn't Pokemon Trainer or Zelda from back in the day count as Stance characters?
 
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Taka is Retro yeah but that could just mean he isn’t going for this installment’s Pit/Ice Climber but rather it’s Duck Hunt/ROB.
Literally impossible with all characters being officially revealed before release.

Can't have a "surprise character" without the actual surprise connotation behind it.
 
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MojoRobo

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Wouldn't Pokemon Trainer or Zelda from back in the day count as Stance characters?
Maybe? Usually what I'm thinking of for traditional stance chars is stuff like Gen from Street Fighter or Faust's pogo stance in Guilty Gear, where they get new movesets but are then limited to different movement options than normal.
 
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Dee Dude

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Literally impossible with all characters being officially revealed before release.

Can't have a "surprise character" without the actual surprise connotation behind it.
I mean with a regular trailer wondering who it is that causes the surprise, ala Wii Fit Trainer.
 
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Chrono.

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Maybe? Usually what I'm thinking of for traditional stance chars is stuff like Gen from Street Fighter or Faust's pogo stance in Guilty Gear, where they get new movesets but are then limited to different movement options than normal.
Yeah I got it.

I guess if Elma ever got in and she does indeed switch between swords and fire arms to alter her moveset she would be the first true stance fighter.
 

SmasherMaster

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If we don't get Banjo/Lloyd/Steve/Geno/Shadow/Other3rdParty announced soon, I don't think there will be another chance for then. In every Smash game, the all of the base roster 3rd party characters always appear on the box for the game. I doubt Sakurai, Nintendo or anybody would want the box art to reveal who the 3rd party characters are.
 

MojoRobo

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Yeah I got it.

I guess if Elma ever got in and she does indeed switch between swords and fire arms to alter her moveset she would be the first true stance fighter.
It'd be interesting if Elma's movement got affected when switching between them, too.
 

Starbound

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I must be the only one wanting Elma to fight with a skell.

I know she's already unique with dual swords and dual guns, but that would put her on a whole new level.
 

0007

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Random Item: Pretty self-explanatory, a character that pulls out items decided entirely by RNG and either throws them like a projectile or equips them to add new moves to their moveset for a limited amount of uses.
Literally Peach.
 

Arcadenik

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Wouldn't Pokemon Trainer or Zelda from back in the day count as Stance characters?
Stance character?

Team Rocket... which is Meowth teamed with Arbok… and Meowth teamed with Weezing… could be a stance character.

Meowth & Arbok and Meowth & Weezing could have different moves and strengths/weaknesses.

:052::024::110:
 

Will

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Yo, idea. Groundbreaking **** that breaks tradition. What if instead of this:
Untitled.png tacky, bland, basic
We got something similar to how the late three of Brawl's SSE were introduced?

Gives it more life, more flair, that stuff.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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My boi is a weird combination of 2 archetypes: rushdown and heavyweight. I could imagine Boshi getting in but with more of a focus on one or the other...
I mean Yoshi is largely an aggressive character in 4, but then you have Brawl Yoshi who was a pretty dedicated camper. I'm sure you, as a true Yoshi enthusiast, can remember the days in which you used the following killer strategy:

Spam Egg Toss like crazy. If they start to get close, try to trap their approach with Yoshi's ridiculous pivot grab at which point you throw them away to spam more eggs (do Yoshi's grab release nonsense if the MU makes it work; hilariously this does work against MK!). If they get way too close, mash jab wildly until they're no longer close. If you're actually good with Yoshi, go for random reads with your massive reelback on fsmash to kill eventually; if you're not good with Yoshi, just spam until the time runs out which isn't as horrible as it sounds because remember this is Brawl. Just be sure you're good enough with Yoshi to throw a few hundred eggs in a row without a single accidental Egg Roll; you basically just lose if you ever Egg Roll so don't!

Like it wasn't actually good; Yoshi was "the best low tier character" because this simple strategy was effective to a point but he didn't have a ton going on if you managed to get past it and since it won really slowly good players had a lot of time to find an opening. Boy it sure was annoying, and people who didn't actually know the Yoshi match-up and thus weren't well versed in not getting hit by the eggs just got bowled over which was always hilarious. I think with Yoshi's egg bounces we've seen in Ultimate that he might be shifting back toward the more defensive side a bit, and a Yoshi who can use Brawl Yoshi's annoying camp effectively combined with having an actually competent offense like 4 Yoshi could be just what he has always needed.
 

Dee Dude

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Yo, idea. Groundbreaking **** that breaks tradition. What if instead of this:
View attachment 162316 tacky, bland, basic
We got something similar to how the late three of Brawl's SSE were introduced?

Gives it more life, more flair, that stuff.
Tbh, it feel like an abridged version of their trailers regarding newcomers.

As for vets, it would be too much work even for this game.
 

pupNapoleon

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The group here is usually pretty good at spoiler tagging stuff, and the mods are on top of things (assuming their on) about dealing with real spoilers. If worst comes to worst, this thread would probably become spoiler-free until the direct when the news is publicized.
That is only if the leak could be confirmed, which inevitably, it wont be able to be.
Every true leak we have had, from noticably real ones like the ESRB or Simon Belmont, were leaked here.
The mods here may be great (and few), but they hold no power in steering this thread from spoilers.

It is why i miss the private leaks group; which, again, apparently felt toxic to other people. But then ... why werent they just kicked from the group?
Ah well. I wont ever get an answer I understand to this, I presume. I clearly need to find some more discord chats.
 

Will

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Tbh, it feel like an abridged version of their trailers regarding newcomers.
And that's a bad thing?

As for vets, it would be too much work even for this game.
Too much work when all these characters are getting pumped in, Classic Mode with a unique story for each character, and some godforsaken mode that we have no idea how it functions among many other new things? :shyguy:
 

Deoxys911

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You think Sakurai is only gonna go for the obvious predicted picks? lol.

He’s listening alright but he isn’t going for every fan-favorite out there hence why Takamaru isn’t playable.

Taka is Retro yeah but that could just mean he isn’t going for this installment’s Pit/Ice Climber but rather it’s Duck Hunt/ROB.

I could be wrong but it’s very unlikely we won’t get a oddball in Ultimate, plus it’ll be boring without one to shock us.
Based on past games I can certainly understand why you'd be so hesitant to believe that all of this game's newcomers will be popular choices, but honestly I actually am pretty convinced that will be the case. For one thing, all of the new characters revealed so far (Echoes aside) have been pretty popular choices, something that couldn't be said of the early reveals for 3DS/Wii U, Brawl, or even Melee. But Sakurai is indeed full of surprises, so perhaps you'll be proven right. We'll find out in due time.

I think when you referenced R.O.B. and Duck Hunt you meant iconic classic Nintendo characters. That got me thinking, are there actually any globally-recognized classic Nintendo characters left that aren't playable? The only two I can think of would be Toad and King Hippo (discounting well-known Zelda NPCs, Mario enemies, and similarly minor, generic characters). I don't really doubt that they'll be playable eventually, but I don't look for it to happen in this entry. Can anyone else think of any other big Nintendo characters from the '80s that are still highly recognized within the gaming community?
 

LetterO

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Yo, idea. Groundbreaking **** that breaks tradition. What if instead of this:
View attachment 162316 tacky, bland, basic
We got something similar to how the late three of Brawl's SSE were introduced?

Gives it more life, more flair, that stuff.
Aand I just got reminded that these two as well as Jigglypuff (a member of the original 12) had zero appearence in the actual story of the SSE.
 
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Fine then, I meant the Wii Fit Trainer of Ultimate.

I wasn’t even talking about how they would be revealed.
....so they would be a character that represents a more recent success for Nintendo that fans may or may not have actually expected to have a fighter?
 

Dee Dude

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And that's a bad thing?
....No?

Too much work when all these characters are getting pumped in, Classic Mode with a unique story for each character, and some godforsaken mode that we have no idea how it functions among many other new things? :shyguy:
Alright alright, I see your point. Maybe I’d just prefer to atleast seeing Story Mode cutscenes before these.
 

Wyoming

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Aand I just got reminded that these two as well as Jigglypuff (a member of the original 12) had zero appearence in the actual story of the SSE.
Toon Link and Jigglypuff are somewhat not big losses. We already have a Link interacting with others and Puff isn't really an entity known for heroism or villainy, but Wolf would have been a cool addition to the villain side. Not sure what he'd do, but I imagine he'd fight with Wario and Dedede for the trophies. In fact I could see him ambushing Fox. Falco, and Diddy on the platform that is sailing towards the base rather than random no name enemies.
 

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So how much longer until we can say with certainty that today got ignored due to the potential reveal?

I recall us getting a few blog posts super late in the past.
 

Zinith

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I mean Yoshi is largely an aggressive character in 4, but then you have Brawl Yoshi who was a pretty dedicated camper. I'm sure you, as a true Yoshi enthusiast, can remember the days in which you used the following killer strategy:

Spam Egg Toss like crazy. If they start to get close, try to trap their approach with Yoshi's ridiculous pivot grab at which point you throw them away to spam more eggs (do Yoshi's grab release nonsense if the MU makes it work; hilariously this does work against MK!). If they get way too close, mash jab wildly until they're no longer close. If you're actually good with Yoshi, go for random reads with your massive reelback on fsmash to kill eventually; if you're not good with Yoshi, just spam until the time runs out which isn't as horrible as it sounds because remember this is Brawl. Just be sure you're good enough with Yoshi to throw a few hundred eggs in a row without a single accidental Egg Roll; you basically just lose if you ever Egg Roll so don't!

Like it wasn't actually good; Yoshi was "the best low tier character" because this simple strategy was effective to a point but he didn't have a ton going on if you managed to get past it and since it won really slowly good players had a lot of time to find an opening. Boy it sure was annoying, and people who didn't actually know the Yoshi match-up and thus weren't well versed in not getting hit by the eggs just got bowled over which was always hilarious. I think with Yoshi's egg bounces we've seen in Ultimate that he might be shifting back toward the more defensive side a bit, and a Yoshi who can use Brawl Yoshi's annoying camp effectively combined with having an actually competent offense like 4 Yoshi could be just what he has always needed.
Well if he's going back to being a defensive fighter I HOPE they fix some of his options, which makes me wonder how they'll handle perfect shielding with him due to the egg...
 

Will

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Alright alright, I see your point. Maybe I’d just prefer to atleast seeing Story Mode cutscenes before these.
Boy with over twice the characters in Brawl, and the relatively short development time, you're hard pressed if you want a story mode. That requires making new assets and backgrounds, while what I'm talking about uses the pre-existing character models on already existing stages, give for some FX here and there for flair purposes.

At most for what you desire, Spirits will probably be some type of Adventure mode. Maybe there's a bunch of varying locations a certain character is fixed to travel through per series or something, kinda like Classic Mode but put to each series rather than specific characters to save time. I've had the idea like that before, but I never really fleshed it out.
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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It's the exact same item only with different damage and knockback decided randomly. Not the same thing. I'm talking they pull out completely different items.

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php/GGXRD-R2/Faust#Items Check this to see what I mean.
Items are a lot more dynamic and powerful in Smash than in Guilty Gear. Remember that among the items that exist in Smash that the banana peel is a fairly low tier one but being able to freely spawn them is an incredibly powerful tool for Diddy Kong and a significant factor that has made him a top tier two games in a row. A special with these mechanics would probably be one of the most powerful moves in the game, and if you attach RNG to its behavior, you're going to make a character who has massively random match results which would be awful. I think the spirit of Faust is largely preserved in the dynamics of Pac-Man's Bonus Fruit. It's not random and instead you charge for levels, which as a concept works much better in Smash than it would in GG (since Smash is so much slower there's a lot more chance for it). You still get really varied item behavior, but you remove the RNG aspect and also stick to a set of items that have some powerful behaviors but are mostly very intentionally tame.
 

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MojoRobo

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Items are a lot more dynamic and powerful in Smash than in Guilty Gear. Remember that among the items that exist in Smash that the banana peel is a fairly low tier one but being able to freely spawn them is an incredibly powerful tool for Diddy Kong and a significant factor that has made him a top tier two games in a row. A special with these mechanics would probably be one of the most powerful moves in the game, and if you attach RNG to its behavior, you're going to make a character who has massively random match results which would be awful. I think the spirit of Faust is largely preserved in the dynamics of Pac-Man's Bonus Fruit. It's not random and instead you charge for levels, which as a concept works much better in Smash than it would in GG (since Smash is so much slower there's a lot more chance for it). You still get really varied item behavior, but you remove the RNG aspect and also stick to a set of items that have some powerful behaviors but are mostly very intentionally tame.
I get that Bonus Fruit is strongly reminiscent of Faust, but I never really intended it as a serious suggestion anyways outside of the Anna moveset I whipped up for her support thread. Was just responding to the original question, really.
 
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Starbound

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Well if he's going back to being a defensive fighter I HOPE they fix some of his options, which makes me wonder how they'll handle perfect shielding with him due to the egg...
I wonder if they'd just give Yoshi different shield animations. Like as the shield gets poked, the egg cracks. And the perfect shield means no cracks, because we can break the laws of physics apparently.
 

Dee Dude

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Alright screw this, I’m proven wrong by both of you.

Let’s talk about something else, something that bugs me, the N64 stages.

Why didn’t they outright remaster them from scratch like they did with the Melee stages?
 
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PLATINUM7

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Alright screw this, I’m proven wrong by both of you.

Let’s talk about something else, something that bugs me, the N64 stages.

Why didn’t they outright remaster them from scratch like they did with the Melee stages?
To preserve a sense of nostalgia. Something like that was said in the Smash Direct.
 

Enchess

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Alright screw this, I’m proven wrong by both of you.

Let’s talk about something else, something that bugs me, the N64 stages.

Why didn’t they outright remaster them from scratch like they did with the Melee stages?
Because nostalgia. Honestly, the really great stages from a layout point of view (Zebes and Sector Z) were the only ones left out. The others are still good, but mostly great for the memories and history. If they were updated to modern graphics, they wouldnt look the same and wouldn't hit the nostalgia/history sweet spot.
 

Tree Gelbman

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You know if somehow Mallow got in with Geno as well.

Wouldn't that technically be an ACTUAL cloud in Smash?

Unless you want to count a certain blonde spikey haired fella.
 
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