Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Swamp Sensei]

Carmen Sandiego is pretty neat.

Don't know if she has moveset potential though.

She's a super secret spy but...

Does she actually do much?

 

[PsychoJosh]

I do not. It would honestly be too over-powered and the character would just be way too big.

Yes yes, we know you're anti-fun.

A Mega Mushroom would be great. You wouldn't be able to attack, but instead your entire body becomes a damaging hurtbox. You can simply charge at other players and damage them just by ramming into them at high speed, or completely flatten them by jumping on them/footstooling them.

Oooh boy, it'd be a real screamer, especially if you're already using a character with a large hitbox... and it'd be fun to do with Rosalina as well... ahem.

 

[N3ON]

This is exactly why you're ignored. Because you don't know what a false dichotomy is. And it pisses me off and makes it very difficult to not tell you what I really think about you and everyone who likes up your ridiculously illogical arguments.

I'm sure you'll never understand the differences between the absurd contrasts you make because you'll just think they make sense as long as a bunch of people on a forum like up your "points".

POKEMON STARTERS AND ZELDA CHARACTERS ARE NOT THE SAME THING. THEY'RE NOT THE SAME GAME. IT'S NOT EVEN THE SAME ROLE.

YOUR ARGUMENT MAKES NO SENSE.

EDIT: Actually I ignored you because you grossly misinterpret my posts and argue with me about things I never even said or remotely implied because you leap to assumptions based on your own bias and project that bias on to other people.

But, this is another big reason why.

Well you've yet to explain your logic. Mostly just called the possibility absurd and threw a tantrum when presented with a contrary point, again not elaborating on your argument (yet, presumably, expecting everyone to know its intricacies), which, truthfully, isn't even really a argument as much as it is a revocation of someone else's stance. For someone who struggles so much with allegedly being misinterpreted, seems you avoid mitigating the problem much via clarification.

Because ultimately it doesn't matter if the characters are not the same. It doesn't matter if the game isn't the same. The principle is identical, and around that basis the roster is formed. Such a myopic outlook is what gives us all those countless rigid "rules" which gradually fall by the wayside, while finding commonalities in roster building is what allows us to extrapolate past isolated incidents as best we can and make inferences as to what's possible. If we limited what could happen to what has happened, we'd be proven wrong at nearly every step. What is the distinction inhibiting the Zelda paradigm but allowing the Pokemon paradigm when the same guiding principle is dually applicable? Past the fact that "but they're different", which is a poor counterpoint.

You can yell at me, accuse me of selling out for likes (which, if any old-timers can remember the din I raised when they were added, and my exceptionally infrequent use of them - will know that's nonsense) and condemn my argumentation, but in my decade on the site you're literally the only one who has taken this stance against me. And those longtime members know, there have been many people I've disagreed with in the past. I know I'm not the most diplomatic of debaters, true enough, but you'll excuse me if I consider you to be the anomaly instead of the other way around.

It is probably for the best you continue to ignore me should such an innocuous post incite such a histrionic response. You may not even read this. But if you do, I'd suggest, at the very least, some introspection as to why something so trivial is worth getting this worked up over.

 

[PixelSun]

I fully support the Mega Mushroom.

It would be like Puff's Final Smash but with the hability to move, isn't?

 

[Deleted member]

-stuff-

If I may offer a legitimate attempt at a rebuttal, I do have an argument as to how the cases are different.

First, in the case of Charizard, it should be pointed out that Charizard was initially included as part of an "all or nothing" deal along with Squirtle and Ivysaur back in Brawl.
That being said, it was clearly no longer the case when it came to returning to Smash 4 and/or going solo and not be part of the full Pokémon Trainer gimmick.

Aside from that tiny nitpick, there is one major reason as to why including a single Starter from a given Generation of Pokémon is different from including a single Champion from Breath of the Wild.

For the most part (I am aware that there are multiple ways around this in a number of the games) only one of the Starters you pick from a set will be part of the player's adventure. Unless you're playing Yellow, you can't have Venusaur, Charizard, and Blastoise as your companions without trading. Same with X/Y; outside of Friend Areas and trading, you can't use Chesnaut, Delphox, and Greninja on your in-game team at the same time.
One Starter automatically becomes the most significant one of the player's personal game, while either another or both become an opponent. And not only that, but the Starters are often not treated equally in significance by both the fanbase and whoever's in charge of marketing and promotion for the overall franchise. Case in point, the reason why Charizard likely stayed while the other two were cast away with the Trainer; Charizard is CLEARLY the most significant of all three Starters from Generation 1. And while it wouldn't really be until after its Smash debut, the same would apply for Greninja as well for Generation 6.

In the case of the Champions, they are all completely equal. One is no more significant than the other in the context of Breath of the Wild. From an in-game standpoint to a fanbase standpoint to other material relating to the game.
There is no "clear" significant one overall. There is no "Charizard" among them. (At least to my knowledge; feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

That's not to say that a single Champion can't get it. Just that the Pokémon counterexample isn't necessarily the best one to use.


And that's my two cents.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Carmen Sandiego is pretty neat.

Don't know if she has moveset potential though.

She's a super secret spy but...

Does she actually do much?

C'mon Swamp- anyone could have a moveset potentail. Just have to make the mechanics of the character's home world feel present in the character. I'll make a video.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes yes, we know you're anti-fun.

A Mega Mushroom would be great. You wouldn't be able to attack, but instead your entire body becomes a damaging hurtbox. You can simply charge at other players and damage them just by ramming into them at high speed, or completely flatten them by jumping on them/footstooling them.

Oooh boy, it'd be a real screamer, especially if you're already using a character with a large hitbox... and it'd be fun to do with Rosalina as well... ahem.

So you are telling me that....
Disagreeing with your opinion = that everyone knows that person is anti-fun?
That would still be way too large ( no Ridley joke ) and Mario can jump with a mega mushroom, so edge-guarding would be very unfair and cause many people to complain about the item.

Also people here are too hostile lately. Yeesh.

I know . Come on, lets sing around the campfire and be civil!!

C'mon Swamp- anyone could have a moveset potentail. Just have to make the mechanics of the character's home world feel present in the character. I'll make a video.

I like your attitude. I mean, it takes creativeness to make someone like that possible for Smash for Switch. Just look into the games and you might find some hidden clues.

 

[Lukingordex]

So you are telling me that....
Disagreeing with your opinion = that everyone knows that person is anti-fun?
That would still be way too large ( no Ridley joke ) and Mario can jump with a mega mushroom, so edge-guarding would be very unfair and cause many people to complain about the item

Even if somehow it becomes "too broken", what's so bad about it? It's just an item, and there's already a ton of broken itens in the game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The problem with huge broken items like that isn't just multiplayer, it's the fact it makes single player stuff like Classic oftentimes a chore to play through, as it greatly enables unfair situations for the player. Stuff like the Star and random Bob-Ombs are bad enough.

I'd rather not have the Mega Mushroom. Super Mushroom feels good enough for giant characters, imo.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Honestly, I think the Mega Mushroom should be Toad's final Smash.

(Booming, but still shrill voice)"Who's stepping over who now Bowser!?"

 

[Cosmic77]

If I may offer a legitimate attempt at a rebuttal, I do have an argument as to how the cases are different.

First, in the case of Charizard, it should be pointed out that Charizard was initially included as part of an "all or nothing" deal along with Squirtle and Ivysaur back in Brawl.
That being said, it was clearly no longer the case when it came to returning to Smash 4 and/or going solo and not be part of the full Pokémon Trainer gimmick.

Aside from that tiny nitpick, there is one major reason as to why including a single Starter from a given Generation of Pokémon is different from including a single Champion from Breath of the Wild.

For the most part (I am aware that there are multiple ways around this in a number of the games) only one of the Starters you pick from a set will be part of the player's adventure. Unless you're playing Yellow, you can't have Venusaur, Charizard, and Blastoise as your companions without trading. Same with X/Y; outside of Friend Areas and trading, you can't use Chesnaut, Delphox, and Greninja on your in-game team at the same time.
One Starter automatically becomes the most significant one of the player's personal game, while either another or both become an opponent. And not only that, but the Starters are often not treated equally in significance by both the fanbase and whoever's in charge of marketing and promotion for the overall franchise. Case in point, the reason why Charizard likely stayed while the other two were cast away with the Trainer; Charizard is CLEARLY the most significant of all three Starters from Generation 1. And while it wouldn't really be until after its Smash debut, the same would apply for Greninja as well for Generation 6.

In the case of the Champions, they are all completely equal. One is no more significant than the other in the context of Breath of the Wild. From an in-game standpoint to a fanbase standpoint to other material relating to the game.
There is no "clear" significant one overall. There is no "Charizard" among them. (At least to my knowledge; feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

That's not to say that a single Champion can't get it. Just that the Pokémon counterexample isn't necessarily the best one to use.


And that's my two cents.

Although it's true that only one starter Pokemon will play a significant role, all three starters are given an equal amount of screen time and priority. It's not until after the game has been released before Game Freak starts picking up on which starter is the fan favorite and begins plastering them in ads. In other words, all three starters are treated equally until the game is released and the fans choose their favorite. This is why I would argue that the starters are very similar (if not nearly identical) to the Champions. The Champions were all given a role of equal importance in BotW. However, as the poll from the previous page shows us, not all are equal in terms of popularity. Urbosa and Mipha have both been shown to be more popular than Revali and Daruk. Even Nintendo itself has acknowledged that some Champions are more popular, as more Mipha amiibo were produced over the other three Champions.

I think the only real tool you can use to use to determine a starter Pokemon or Champion's likeliness for Smash is popularity, as any major "significance" that one of these characters might have over the others wouldn't pop up until after the game has been released and fans have established which one they prefer. So basically, popularity is still going to decide which one will start being promoted more heavily.



And for those who have already cast aside the idea of a Champion getting in Smash like it's completely implausible, let me remind you something. This is their first chance to get into a Smash game. How many opportunities has Skull Kid, Midna, Tingle, Impa, and Ganon had to get into a Smash game?

 

[Guybrush20X6]

. Even Nintendo itself has acknowledged that some Champions are more popular, as more Mipha amiibo were produced over the other three Champions.

Bit off topic there but is that a US thing? You can only get them in a 4 pack where I am. Well, I say "you can get" but this is about catalogues, not stocks.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

In the case of the Champions, they are all completely equal. One is no more significant than the other in the context of Breath of the Wild. From an in-game standpoint to a fanbase standpoint to other material relating to the game.
There is no "clear" significant one overall. There is no "Charizard" among them. (At least to my knowledge; feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

You forgot that Link himself is a Champion, so we already had the "Charizard" since 1999

Jokes aside, no, none of the other Champions really seems to stand out, aside from maybe Mipha but that makes sense since the Zora arc is without a doubt the best arc in BotW.

 

[Cosmic77]

Bit off topic there but is that a US thing? You can only get them in a 4 pack where I am. Well, I say "you can get" but this is about catalogues, not stocks.

Reversing the usual trend of the US getting all the amiibo bundles, Europe and Japan are the only places where the 4 pack exists. The US can only get them separately, Europe can only get them in a 4 pack, and Japan has the leisure of deciding between the individual amiibo and 4 pack.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Reversing the usual trend of the US getting all the amiibo bundles, Europe and Japan are the only places where the 4 pack exists. The US can only get them separately, Europe can only get them in a 4 pack, and Japan has the leisure of deciding between the individual amiibo and 4 pack.

Yep. I had to mail order my Mipha amiibo. Helps that she's adorable. :3

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

However, as the poll from the previous page shows us, not all are equal in terms of popularity. Urbosa and Mipha have both been shown to be more popular than Revali and Daruk. Even Nintendo itself has acknowledged that some Champions are more popular, as more Mipha amiibo were produced over the other three Champions.

While it's true none of them have the same popularity, the poll isn't really the best exmple since it only covers a very very small amount of the playerbase. We can approximate using those results, but chances are it could be very different if all 5 million+ people who own the game voted.

The only real piece of reference we can use without making a stretch is the fact that there are more Mipha amiibo produced over the other three, but that could simply be because the Zora arc is the most memorable of the bunch rather than Mipha herself.

 

[Cosmic77]

While it's true none of them have the same popularity, the poll isn't really the best exmple since it only covers a very very small amount of the playerbase. We can approximate using those results, but chances are it could be very different if all 5 million+ people who own the game voted.

The only real piece of reference we can use without making a stretch is the fact that there are more Mipha amiibo produced over the other three, but that could simply be because the Zora arc is the most memorable of the bunch rather than Mipha herself.

I didn't really intend for people to think that was the ONLY poll I looked at. The results from the poll on the previous page is how most of the generic "who's your favorite champion" polls I've come across end up looking, with the female Champions usually ranking higher than the males. All of those polls combined don't provide solid evidence, but consistency between them is still a good indicator of where things stand with the Champions and their popularity.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I didn't really intend for people to think that was the ONLY poll I looked at. The results from the poll on the previous page is how most of the generic "who's your favorite champion" polls I've come across end up looking, with the female Champions usually ranking higher than the males. All of those polls combined don't provide solid evidence, but consistency between them is still a good indicator of where things stand with the Champions and their popularity.

Fair enough. Also...

with the female Champions usually ranking higher than the males.

I am seriously not even surprised.

 

[Lukingordex]

The problem with huge broken items like that isn't just multiplayer, it's the fact it makes single player stuff like Classic oftentimes a chore to play through, as it greatly enables unfair situations for the player. Stuff like the Star and random Bob-Ombs are bad enough.

I'd rather not have the Mega Mushroom. Super Mushroom feels good enough for giant characters, imo.

Tbh, all I want from the Mega Mushroom is to have the same effect the mushroom has right now but with it's music.
It doesn't make sense for the normal Mushroom to make people grow to such huge sizes, and the creators know that and that's why since the first Mega Mushroom appearance in 2006 it has replaced the normal mushroom when it comes to growing to huge sizes in Mario games. I only wish the same would happen with Smash Bros.

But then again, it also doesn't make sense for the Normal Mushroom to give turbo boosts in Mario Kart, so I just accepted that the Mega Mushroom is probably never gonna be in Smash Bros. anyway

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I do not. It would honestly be too over-powered and the character would just be way too big.

Let's not forget that the Lightning item already has the chance to make fighters gigantic anyway. And since fighters that are made gigantic by the Lightning deal even more damage than those who acquire Super Mushrooms (1.84x in a standard match; 3.64x in a Giant Special Smash; 0.904x in a Tiny Special Smash), there's a good reason why the Lightning growth is an uncommon ordeal.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Tbh, all I want from the Mega Mushroom is to have the same effect the mushroom has right now but with it's music.
It doesn't make sense for the normal Mushroom to make people grow to such huge sizes, and the creators know that and that's why since the first Mega Mushroom appearance in 2006 it has replaced the normal mushroom when it comes to growing to huge sizes in Mario games. I only wish the same would happen with Smash Bros.

But then again, it also doesn't make sense for the Normal Mushroom to give turbo boosts in Mario Kart, so I just accepted that the Mega Mushroom is probably never gonna be in Smash Bros. anyway

I think the one problem to it is the Poison Mushroom, which doesn't look like any of its Mario appearances.

From the way they look, I can tell they remain how they are in purpose because it can create confusion as to which one is which in the middle of the battle.

But with that said, the Super Mushroom being the one that makes you grow still somewhat makes sense, since this is what it does to a small Mario in his games.

 

[Doubleslasher]

Reversing the usual trend of the US getting all the amiibo bundles, Europe and Japan are the only places where the 4 pack exists. The US can only get them separately, Europe can only get them in a 4 pack, and Japan has the leisure of deciding between the individual amiibo and 4 pack.

Actually, Canada is another place with a 4-pack bundle only.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The problem with huge broken items like that isn't just multiplayer, it's the fact it makes single player stuff like Classic oftentimes a chore to play through, as it greatly enables unfair situations for the player. Stuff like the Star and random Bob-Ombs are bad enough.

I'd rather not have the Mega Mushroom. Super Mushroom feels good enough for giant characters, imo.

Agreed as a whole. I can probably see Toad utilizing the Mega Mushroom for his Final Smash though. He'd grow to a gigantic size and becomes virtually invincible, but his mobility gets reduced, is unable to use any attacks, and can't perform mid-air jumps. To compensate for not being able to attack though, Toad's gigantic size is a huge hitbox that can damage any fighters that come into contact with him; the hitbox would also be weight independent, deals 30% damage, and rehits every 30 frames.

Lastly, the duration of the Final Smash would be short, lasting up to 600 frames.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Actually, Canada is another place with a 4-pack bundle only.

That's really weird, considering the US seems to get them individually if Cosmic is right...

 

[Opossum]

On items being overpowered, nothing can be worse than the Gust Bellows already are. Just saying.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I'd like for there to be an Ultra-Hand item. Use it to latch onto an opponent near you, then slam into them. Would be a pretty fun item for midair battles.

I think Super Smash Bros. Crusade had a similar idea, so I think it could work.

 

[Roberto zampari]

If Sakurai had or not interest in making Smash Bros for switch, he will be mentioned somehow in the future games.
I want to remind everyone that Masahiro Sakurai is the director of Smash Bros series.

There's a list of directors who worked in recent nintendo games:

• Shinya Kumazaki ( Directed Kirby Planet Robobot )
• Hidemaro Fujibayashi ( Directed The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild)
• Kenta Motokura ( Directed Super Mario Odyssey)
• Kazumasa Iwao ( Directed Pokemon Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon)

Here comes the question: Does these directors can do Smash Bros better than Sakurai did?

 

[Opossum]

If Sakurai had or not interest in making Smash Bros for switch, he will be mentioned somehow in the future games.
I want to remind everyone that Masahiro Sakurai is the director of Smash Bros series.

There's a list of directors who worked in recent nintendo games:

• Shinya Kumazaki ( Directed Kirby Planet Robobot )
• Hidemaro Fujibayashi ( Directed The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild)
• Kenta Motokura ( Directed Super Mario Odyssey)
• Kazumasa Iwao ( Directed Pokemon Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon)

Here comes the question: Does these directors can do Smash Bros better than Sakurai did?

Honestly I don't see the point in speculating about that. Considering all of those games are widely different from Smash, we'd have no idea if they could "do it better."

 

[Roberto zampari]

Honestly I don't see the point in speculating about that. Considering all of those games are widely different from Smash, we'd have no idea if they could "do it better."

All these games that i mentioned are praised in critics, i doubt that someone would take the Sakurai's throne and make the Smash Bros great again.

Sakurai is past now, he have his moment of shine at the nintendo, who knows that Nintendo need a successor to carry his legacy.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

On items being overpowered, nothing can be worse than the Gust Bellows already are. Just saying.

Dude, just use your shield.

If Sakurai had or not interest in making Smash Bros for switch, he will be mentioned somehow in the future games.
I want to remind everyone that Masahiro Sakurai is the director of Smash Bros series.

There's a list of directors who worked in recent nintendo games:

• Shinya Kumazaki ( Directed Kirby Planet Robobot )
• Hidemaro Fujibayashi ( Directed The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild)
• Kenta Motokura ( Directed Super Mario Odyssey)
• Kazumasa Iwao ( Directed Pokemon Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon)

Here comes the question: Does these directors can do Smash Bros better than Sakurai did?

You're comparing apples to oranges because none of those games are anything like Smash.

On top of that, the fact that they don't direct fighting games means absolutely nothing for your argument since Sakurai also worked on games that aren't fighting games like Smash, including a bunch of Kirby titles, Meteos and Kid Icarus: Uprising.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Back and I have to say things will be shaken up. Unlike the last time, veterans will be grouped with their respective series. So expect stuff like Wolf vs Krystal or Ice Climbers vs Balloon Fighter soon. Now this one is likely to be the last Zelda related poll unless someone say otherwise or remind me of any important candidates missing. Your picks are Ravio, Young Link (Yes, him), Lana, and Linkle.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Good luck.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

All these games that i mentioned are praised in critics, i doubt that someone would take the Sakurai's throne and make the Smash Bros great again.

Sakurai is past now, he have his moment of shine at the nintendo, who knows that Nintendo need a successor to carry his legacy.

Honestly, I think Sakurai is tired of making Smash games.

The series has become extremely ambitious to the point where he ends up overworking a lot and it's even bad for his health. At this point, I wouldn't blame him for leaving his throne as a director and, at best, only acting as a consultant for the next game.

Also, the main reason Sakurai always came back for another Smash was basically because Iwata asked. Now that he's dead (sorry for the reminder), the possibility of Sakurai not working on the next Smash is definitely there.

 

[Roberto zampari]

Also, the main reason Sakurai always came back for another Smash was because Iwata asked. Now that he's dead (sorry for the reminder), the possibility of Sakurai not working on the next Smash is definitely there.

Do you think that Tatsumi Kimishima would do the same thing with Sakurai?
I mean, if Kimishima have interest in Smash Bros.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Do you think that Tatsumi Kimishima would do the same thing with Sakurai?
I mean, if Kimishima have interest in Smash Bros.

Honestly, I'm not sure since we don't really know him much.

It could honestly go either way, as far as I can tell.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

To me, us getting a new director for Smash 5 while Sakurai stays as a consultant is the most idea outcome. We may get some fresh new ideas for the game, keeping the game new and different from other entries, while Sakurai could still remain on the team to keep [some of] his logic instilled. He may also be able to show the new director the ropes, teaching them how to handle the series.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

To me, us getting a new director for Smash 5 while Sakurai stays as a consultant is the most idea outcome. We may get some fresh new ideas for the game, keeping the game new and different from other entries, while Sakurai could still remain on the team to keep [some of] his logic instilled. He may also be able to show the new director the ropes, teaching them how to handle the series.

I bet he's going to give those three tips

1. Don't add Ridley
2. Don't make the game like Melee
3. Don't buff Puff

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I bet he's going to give those three tips

1. Don't add Ridley
2. Don't make the game like Melee
3. Don't buff Puff

Really I only care about the last one. Melee, for me, suffers a lot of the same issues Brawl did. Brawl was far too slow and sluggish, while Melee's too fast-paced for my tastes. Artstyle was also not that good; everything in Melee looked like plastic (though it was the GameCube so I can't really fault it for that). Smash 4 is the best one imo as it managed to struck a perfect balance between what works for casual and competitive auidences, and I hope this engine is what's used for all the entries in the series to come.

And to be honest I really couldn't give a damn about Ridley.

 

[Roberto zampari]

To be honest there, who must be the new director for Smash 5 that would do better than Sakurai?
Are there other fighting games from Nintendo besides Smash?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

To be honest there, who must be the new director for Smash 5 that would do better than Sakurai?
Are there other fighting games besides Smash?

Does it need to be someone who directed a fighting game?

 

[Roberto zampari]

Does it need to be someone who directed a fighting game?

Didn't you stated before:

On top of that, the fact that they don't direct fighting games means absolutely nothing for your argument since Sakurai also worked on games that aren't fighting games like Smash, including a bunch of Kirby titles, Meteos and Kid Icarus: Uprising.

I hope you understand this.
Although these directors i mentioned don't directed fighting games before, perhaps, they need to learn with Sakurai.