Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

Dark Samus is fine being a clone of Samus. Why are people complaining?

Hey, Prequel memes are my shtick.
Donut steal.

Are you threatening me Master Jedi?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Spoiler

Well, RIP anyone who thought Ms. PAC-MAN was gonna be in.



I don't think we should attach ourselves to the Spirits as a gimmick just yet. I mean, the **** does Rathalos have to do with Spirits?

Not that I think she's gonna be in but this really doesn't mean anything, let's not forget about 8-bit duck hunt dog or spirit train toon link

 

[Will]

When someones main method of attacking isn't utilized in their movest then I find it to be a poor representation.

So when Dark Samus can't use Phazon outside of one special, that's good representation, but when Dixie only uses her hair for one attack in one special, that's poor representation?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

But compare it to all the crazy **** she did in Smash4 as an assist trophy. No, she's really not portrayed to the best of her ability.

I wish they could've just reused the phazon tentacle attack and given her a new down smash, the animation and everything is literally already done, just give her it

 

[Deleted member]

Are you threatening me Master Jedi?

Just stop.
It doesn't help that it's kind of off topic in this thread.

 

[Will]

I wish they could've just reused the phazon tentacle attack and given her a new down smash, the animation and everything is literally already done, just give her it

Chrom use all his Echo bux on Aether
Dark Samus used all of her Echo bux on a new roll animation

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

I'd argue Beedle, Tingle, or Skull Kid/Majora are the characters in running for the most recognisable outside of the main three.

One is obvious, as a fan-favorite tragic villain character that led to the darkest Zelda, which in of itself has become highly praised and spawned many parodies, stories (mostly Creepypasta), and memes this generation can recognize.

The other two are just goofballs that regularly show up and make weird noises as they give you stuff for Rupees, and I'd argue most players encounter them a few times in a few of the games they were in. Plus, being extremely disliked by Western Audiences adds to Tingle's recognition, even if in a bad way. And to Beedle's credit, he's been in three of the big 3D Zelda titles, compared to Tingle's three appearances as well (with one being pretty niche to boot), unless I've missed some of the other games he appeared in.

 

[Shroob]

Are we taking that 4chan leak about Loz as legit?

I'd be down for it.

Though I thought that Loz didn't think it was Incineroar, but now he feels it is?


Leaks are confusing.

 

[Will]

One is obvious, as a fan-favorite tragic villain character that led to the darkest Zelda

Are you kidding me? I can barely see **** in Twilight Princess.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Dark Samus is fine being a clone of Samus. Why are people complaining?

Are you threatening me Master Jedi?

I don't think people are really really complaining (most saw it coming/are glad she's playable) but instead using Dark Samus as an example of how a character doesn't need to be perfectly represented as an echo.

I've been saying this forever with Dixie. Could Dixie be unique? Duh. Could Sakurai use Diddy Kong's model for her base, change animations and maybe an attack or two and call it an echo? According to Dark Samus and Chrom, yes. Whether you want it or what she should be is subjective. Objectively she can be an echo, and if that's how she gets in that's fine with me. Right now DK representation feels real off without her, I mean she's one of the playable protagonist in two of the games King K. Rool is the antagonist in.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Even though I argued against Dark Samus being an echo, seeing her in action and how she moves made me happy. If she was gonna be a clone, at the very least I wanted her to keep her creepy, floaty, ghoulish movement intact and they did a great job.

I'm just grateful she's playable, because I didn't think it'd happen.

 

[Deleted member]

These are the updated Japanese Ballot Polls once you've removed all the characters already in the game in some way:

And here's the original one from 2015, all the characters intact:

And here's the Western Polls from the same time, as well as some modern updates:

I think we can ignore 2018, as the game's design document was settled well before games like XB2 and ARMS came out. But it's interesting to see just how many of the characters currently in are characters that placed really high in the polls. I don't wanna get my hopes up, but I really wanna believe that a lot of the upcoming characters will be characters that were popular during the ballots. Fingers crossed for Banjo, as this is the best chance he's EVER gonna get. I can really see it happening, as he's pretty much next in line to be added for a majority of these polls.

Thoughts?

 

[Idon]

I wish they did more with Dark Samus.
They went through all the trouble of changing every non-attack animation and even some subtle attacking ones, that they easily could've made her more different like Falco or Wolf to Fox.

Hell, they even already had effects and animations from her 4 Assist Trophy.

It just feels like they wanted to make her her own thing, but decided to fill up the echo category.

 

[pepiux]

That's your opinion, but unfortunately if Dark Samus wasn't spared, neither will Dixie.

You cannot really compare Dark Samus to Dixie Kong, though. The latter has a longer history with Nintendo, is a playable hero (star and co-star in what are considered to be the best games), and is still relevant. Those are big things to consider when deciding Echoes, not only body-shape suitability.

 

[Shroob]

Ironic that now the only character from Gematsu left is the Rhythm Heaven rep... and I legit think we're getting one this game.

 

[Will]

I wish they did more with Dark Samus.
They went through all the trouble of changing every non-attack animation and even some subtle attacking ones, that they easily could've made her more different like Falco or Wolf to Fox.

Hell, they even already had effects and animations from her 4 Assist Trophy.

It just feels like they wanted to make her her own thing, but decided to fill up the echo category.

The game is still in development. They could change things here and there if they wanted to.

Spoiler

I'm really creeped out about how there's suddenly Dark Samus porn coming from every direction though.

You cannot really compare Dark Samus to Dixie Kong, though. The latter has a longer history with Nintendo, is a playable hero (star and co-star in what are considered to be the best games), and is relevant enough. Those are big things to consider when deciding Echoes, not only body-shape suitability.

And then kicks down your door and says "here's why thats bull****"

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

So when Dark Samus can't use Phazon outside of one special, that's good representation, but when Dixie only uses her hair for one attack in one special, that's poor representation?

If you pay closer attention you will see that for her up smash, forward smash, up throw, and final smash have her using her phazon. It appears that all of Samus's fire moves are replaced with phazon moves, so we can assume that her down tilt and forward aerial also use the phazon. So that is 7 moves using her phazon (6 if you don't count the final smash).

 

[Idon]

The game is still in development. They could change things here and there if they wanted to.

Spoiler

I'm really creeped out about how there's suddenly Dark Samus porn coming from every direction though.

They already made a trailer and unique special effects for her organic style projectiles.
It's not going to happen.

 

[Will]

They already made a trailer and unique special effects for her organic style projectiles.
It's not going to happen.

Keywords if they wanted to. It probably won't happen, but oh well, whatever happens happens.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Yall are looking too deep into this "spirits" thing.

I honestly think the killing off of characters is an unintentional coincidence or they're just trying to get people to talk about the character reveal trailers they may not be interested in. There's no chance that The Pokemon Company is gonna let any of their Pokemon, especially Pikachu, get killed or appear as a spirit. And even if they did, there's absolutely no way in hell Square Enix would for Cloud.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

really hope we see arle and more sega reps in this game in some shape or form

 

[Will]

really hope we see arle and more sega reps in this game in some shape or form

I honestly doubt Sakurai would get close to venturing to other SEGA franchises before SEGA themselves stopped him and said "how about a Shadow in these trying times?".

Yall are looking too deep into this "spirits" thing.

I honestly think the killing off of characters is an unintentional coincidence or they're just trying to get people to talk about the character reveal trailers they may not be interested in. There's no chance that The Pokemon Company is gonna let any of their Pokemon, especially Pikachu, get killed or appear as a spirit. And even if they did, there's absolutely no way in hell Square Enix would for Cloud.

That's why they're killing the Mario Bros. instead of anyone else. I'm surprised Miyamoto was okay with this.

 

[Pyra]

Obviously "Spirits" is referring to alcohol, and you unlock characters by getting them drunk and challenging them to bar fights.

 

[Dee Dude]

-Bandana Dee’s chances have skyrocketed then, I’ll be so shocked if he doesn’t make in.

-Huh, guess Japan doesn’t care about Waluigi, he’s only popular in the West then. It’s possibly why he isn’t playable, Sakurai didn’t want to include too many western requested characters that much, he should be fair game for next Smash.

-Geno and Banjo-Kazooie have both good shots at the being the final hype explosion near release, they could both happen but that seems unlikely.

 

[Deleted member]

Even though I argued against Dark Samus being an echo, seeing her in action and how she moves made me happy. If she was gonna be a clone, at the very least I wanted her to keep her creepy, floaty, ghoulish movement intact and they did a great job.

I'm just grateful she's playable, because I didn't think it'd happen.

She's gonna be a much better character competitively than OG Samus because she can actually dodge properly. She might actually be high tier as she also received the buffs Samus got, like being able to Charge in midair and such. Also, her normals push people at better angles than Samus too, setting them up for combos.

 

[Deleted member]

WARNING: LONG, YET INFORMATIVE AND SPECULATIVE POST AHEAD

Other than Richter, each of the newcomers so far had Ballot speculation presence to varying degrees (yes, even Simon). Sakurai even mentioned that Chrom and Dark Samus had many requests, which is a big reason they are Echoes (and Daisy as well, retroactively).
Hell, even some of the new ATs were relatively recurring names thrown around.
PLAYABLE FIGHTERS:
-Ice Climbers
-Snake
-Wolf
-Pichu (yes, Pichu was a semi-common topic; far more so than Squirtle or Ivysaur)
-Young Link (same as Pichu, though mostly for a revamp using masks)
-Inklings
-Ridley
-Simon Belmont
-King K. Rool
-Daisy (Echo)
-Chrom (Echo)
-Dark Samus (Echo)

ASSIST:
-Waluigi (was already an Assist, so not that big of a deal as an Assist compared to the others)
-Bomberman
-Krystal
-Knuckles
-Shovel Knight

So I've been compiling a list of other "hot topics" of the Ballot days to varying degrees to see what characters we could probably see being fitted into either role.

-Banjo-Kazooie (Would be either playable or not in the game at all; can't see Assist being an option in this particular case.)
-Isaac (Could return as an Assist like he was in Brawl if he is not playable.)
-Paper Mario (Could be playable, could be new Assist, could be just a trophy again.)
-Sceptile (Could be a new Poké Ball summon if lucky; very questionable of an inclusion overall due to circumstances such as Gen. 7 being on the way when Ultimate started development.)
-Shantae (Like Shovel Knight, could be an Assist if not playable. Or a trophy. Or not in the game at all. -shrug-)
-Impa (Could be a possible Sheik Echo)
-Dixie Kong (Could be a regular newcomer or could be a Diddy Kong Echo)
-Rayman (Could be anything, really. At least he was a trophy before... -shrug-)
-Crash Bandicoot (-more shrug- Not sure what to think.)
-Skull Kid (Could be playable; for whatever reason we have a new Assist in the Moon from the same game, but not the Skull Kid himself yet...)
-Bandana Dee (Could be playable, could be Assist, could be trophy.)
-Sora (-even more shrug- Though seems like another "playable or nothing" type due to Disney's involvement.)
-Geno (Could be playable, could be Assist, which some might argue against.)
-Wonder Red (Another wild card that could be anything.)
-Chorus Kids (Who really knows their fate at this point...?)
-Goku (Manga/anime character, so odds of any sort of appearance is very low. But if there were any exception to that "other media characters" barrier, it'd be him. But don't bet on it.)
-Shrek (HAHAHAHA-no. Shrek is a much harder sell than Goku.)
-Freddy Fazbear (One of the three major "meme" votes of the time alongside Goku and Shrek, but is arguably more plausible than the two given that the barrier for him is "no Nintendo presence". Which might not matter as much due to FNAF being a worldwide phenomenon, which yes, includes Japan. Still wouldn't bet on an appearance, but it could happen for all we know, even if just an Assist role.)

Others such as Shadow (who was a bigger topic during the Brawl days) or Isabelle who I strangely didn't find much discussion of are still possible. Same with certain post-Ballot deals such as a Gen. 7 Pokémon (considering we have new Poké Ball summons from Alola).
This above list was just to cover the remaining "hot topic" names from that time period given that Ultimate seems to be incorporating as much of them as possible.

I may have forgotten or overlooked a few, so feel free to correct me if you feel I missed some big ones.

 

[Blue7113]

If you could choose one series to get more representation what would you choose? For me it would be Earthbound/Mother or F-Zero.

 

[zeldasmash]

Updated character chart:

 

[TMNTSSB4]

These are the updated Japanese Ballot Polls once you've removed all the characters already in the game in some way:

View attachment 156910



And here's the original one from 2015, all the characters intact:
View attachment 156911

And here's the Western Polls from the same time, as well as some modern updates:
View attachment 156912


I think we can ignore 2018, as the game's design document was settled well before games like XB2 and ARMS came out. But it's interesting to see just how many of the characters currently in are characters that placed really high in the polls. I don't wanna get my hopes up, but I really wanna believe that a lot of the upcoming characters will be characters that were popular during the ballots. Fingers crossed for Banjo, as this is the best chance he's EVER gonna get. I can really see it happening, as he's pretty much next in line to be added for a majority of these polls.

Thoughts?

Japan has an overall better taste in who should join Smash atm

Are you kidding me? I can barely see **** in Twilight Princess.

Have you tried anything to see in the game?

 

[Deleted member]

-Bandana Dee’s chances have skyrocketed then, I’ll be so shocked if he doesn’t make in.

-Huh, guess Japan doesn’t care about Waluigi, he’s only popular in the West then. It’s possibly why he isn’t playable, Sakurai didn’t want to include too many western requested characters that much, he should be fair game for next Smash.

-Geno and Banjo-Kazooie have both good shots at the being the final hype explosion near release, they could both happen but that seems unlikely.

I don't have a source on this, but I remember reading somewhere that Geno is a personal pick for Sakurai, he was just never able to make it happen. I think it was an interview or something. also, Geno got Mii Costumes in Smash 4. So, if he's not it, it's on Square Enix.

Similar case for Banjo. He was considered for 64, and meant to be in Melee as well. Strong ties to Nintendo, ofc. So if he's not in, my assumption would be that striking a deal for him must have been too hard. Guess we'll see though.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Yall are looking too deep into this "spirits" thing.

I honestly think the killing off of characters is an unintentional coincidence or they're just trying to get people to talk about the character reveal trailers they may not be interested in. There's no chance that The Pokemon Company is gonna let any of their Pokemon, especially Pikachu, get killed or appear as a spirit. And even if they did, there's absolutely no way in hell Square Enix would for Cloud.

...are we gonna acknowledge the elephant in the room that is Capcom and a certain Blue Bomber being freaking impaled?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I wish they could've just reused the phazon tentacle attack and given her a new down smash, the animation and everything is literally already done, just give her it

Update: Her down smash was never shown in the direct, pleeeeeeeease daddy sakurai

 

[Nethermoosen]

Has to be Ken. He is the number 2.

The Luigi to Mario.
the Zelda to Link.

Or both? I bet people would be upset, but I like Ken and Akuma over Ryu.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Updated character chart:

View attachment 156915

Damn, not even in fan tier lists is Dedede free from competitively unviable status

sad times man

...are we gonna acknowledge the elephant in the room that is Capcom and a certain Blue Bomber being freaking impaled?

You do know Capcom and Square Enix are different companies right

 

[Will]

Have you tried anything to see in the game?

My TV doesn't have brightness settings, none that I could find at least. I've still played and beat the game several times, but man is it dark as hell sometimes.

 

[Autobot N]

Updated character chart:

View attachment 156915

You best have a good explanation for putting my main man Toon Link at the very bottom.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

...are we gonna acknowledge the elephant in the room that is Capcom and a certain Blue Bomber being freaking impaled?

Capcom got burned hard with Marvel's restrictions of "pwees dun hurt our characters in marketimg twailers uwu" on MVCI so they told Nintendo to do whatever lol

 

[Will]

Has to be Ken. He is the number 2.

The Luigi to Mario.
the Zelda to Link.

Don't you mean the Young Link to Link?

 

[Idon]

If I were to semi-clone Dark samus, down B is now floor tentacle, side b now scatter shot, neutral b now charges laser, up B is the defensive bubble.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

You do know Capcom and Square Enix are different companies right

I'm aware, but it goes to show you that we shouldn't just expect strictly Nintendo characters to be killed off, as the company behind one of the four faces of gaming allowed him to be brutally shish kabob'ed by Ridley.

So, what I'm saying is... Expect Sonic to eat dirt and for Pac-Man to be violently vored by Yoshi, only for Yoshi to be snatched up in the maws of one of Bayo's demons as she tries to fight Kratos in a new trailer.

You heard it here first