Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Will]

let's just say Corrin is the Smash 5 newcomer and in exchange for no longer complaining about Fire Emblem, we are spared from any additional FE reps (newcomer OR Echo) for this game
square deal?

Sounds like a scam. Put him and Fates and Roy in the trash, advertisement slots were a mistake.

 

[Idon]

What's wrong with making him an echo fighter? And he's in more games than just awakening.

And they can give him lightning which is cool and interesting. Sakurai even said that Lucina was extremely lucky to get in instead of being a costume like planned.

If irrelevant characters like Daisy get in as echo fighters I'm willing to wager money that highly requested and popular characters like
Chrom will easily get in as echo fighters.

I'm going to say 1. He isn't. and 2. If he was, it sure as hell wasn't in any meaningful way, though to be fair, I guess only Marth and Ike are the ones popular/important enough to get major parts in sequels.

 

[AzureFlame4]

I'd take Sothe, Oscar, Rolf or Boyd over Chrom at this point because they all represent something different for the Fire Emblem franchise.

 

[blazefan519]

let's just say Corrin is the Smash 5 newcomer and in exchange for no longer complaining about Fire Emblem, we are spared from any additional FE reps (newcomer OR Echo) for this game
square deal?

Meh, I disagree with this. In a series where all of your characters change in each game, it makes sense that it would have a lot of characters to represent it in Smash. I don't care how much people complain about it having "too" many characters, won't change the fact that I want both Alm and Celica in

Unfortunately, that's just the nature of a game like smash. No matter how you argue it, a character did take away another characters chance. (echo for echo and actual newcomer for actual newcomer of course.) People will be mad either way. My main hatred for Chrom is three characters from the same game though. Aside from Fire Emblem Warriors they can't even be claimed by another game. I'm a huge Fire Emblem fan but enough is enough.

Um no that's not how it works at all. Sakurai decides on who he wants in very early on, if there wasn't a character he considered then there wasn't a character he considered. The notion that a character takes someone else's place in the roster is completely false. Don't know what else to tell you.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Sounds like a scam. Put him and Fates and Roy in the trash, advertisement slots were a mistake.

Uh-oh.

We just lost most of the roster.

 

[Will]

Honestly, no.

I get that people are tired of Fire Emblem having soo many characters, but I personally think it kinda deserves that many tbh.

I honestly feel like if we could just veer away from the oh-so-despised "Anime Swordsman" design, people would be more okay with it tbh.


Celica, for example, would be great. She'd bring something to the table that not a lot of Smashers do(Magic). Only Zelda and Robin can be considered dedicated 'mages'.

"She does something that nobody does, except another guy from the same series."
It's gonna make another trope. Instead of anime swordsman it's anime magician. If you really wanted a "unique" FE character unlike the rest, you got some of the following:
- Calvalier
- Hector (aka Axe/Hammer)
- Thieves
- Archer
- Ballistician
- Mounts
Can't do dragons for someone like Tiki unfortunately, that's Corrin's gimmick.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Inb4 Smash Ultimate is quite literally a gacha game.


Want new characters? ROLL FOR EM *****

FF brave Exvius PTSD kicks in with you only having a 1% of getting a character while the rest is trophies/ costumes/music

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

*inhales* ****ing gimme Hector

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Retro Studios' last original game release was DKC: Tropical Freeze in February 2014. Realistically Metroid Prime 4 started sometime in 2014 as well since dev teams aren't paid to just sit around, and as happens from time to time with Nintendo projects, it probably has been in kinda dev hell for a long time since in dev it was probably turning out badly and Nintendo is really stubborn about not putting out those types of games. The fact that it was first shown with no real information in 2017 isn't terribly meaningful; it just means that that was the first point the project was successful enough Nintendo felt reasonably sure it would even launch. We saw nothing this year at E3 because it didn't fit Nintendo's E3 plans to show it there; they were pushing Smash Ultimate and didn't want to have their other reveals distract from that (it's bad marketing to compete with yourself for airspace). It's also the case that not every character who will be in the game is decided when a project plan is developed; plans do change as they go anyway. I can almost guarantee that whatever character list they had in 2015 is not exactly identical to what will launch this December. It's probably generally close but will have some deviation as things actually developed, and it very well may have even allocated resources to develop an as of the time undecided character who would be used to promote a game that hadn't come out as of the project plan being formed (which is why someone like Pyra or something crazy like a freeform labo character aren't unbelievable).

Also, things never happen for only one reason. Yes, Ridley was included because he was highly requested. Ridley was also included because he's a major component of the Metroid series and a very memorable game character in general. Ridley was also included because Metroid Prime 4 is on the horizon. Everything contributes, and given the incredibly high stakes of developing such a big title as Smash, every factor is considered and weighed. And the broader point I made wasn't "Ridley is in because of Metroid Prime 4" even. Ridley was revealed very early. There are other newcomers in Smash Ultimate too. Why choose to show off Ridley in particular so early instead of someone else? Well, again, there will be multiple reasons because nothing is ever done for only one reason, but two real big reasons might be that you want to make Metroid a focal point of your marketing or because you have several major pieces of Metroid content to reveal and want to spread them out. Of course it's all just speculation. Maybe they don't think Metroid is important at all and showed Ridley early only because the dev work on him went better than the dev work on the other newcomers so he was more ready for a demo or just because his unusually high fan demand made him fit the best with "everybody is here". Maybe Ridley didn't come with a new Metroid stage because there simply won't be one at all or because the new Metroid stage was still really buggy at the time. We can't really know anything until it is revealed, but the Metroid Prime 4 being a major focus in Smash Ultimate idea I think is plausible. We have no information that excludes its possibility at least.

EDIT: Fact check, apparently Retro isn't actually working on MP4 which raises serious questions about what they're even doing. Of course it's possible they started on the project, screwed it up, and the project got moved. We can't really know, but the underlying point was "we really don't know when MP4's development started" remains true.

If Metroid Prime 4 was in development for over two years by the time it was announced, surely they would have had something to show besides a png, at least some sort of trailer like BOTW had when it was first announced or pretty much every other game, and not still be completely silent on it over a year later.

Why choose to show off Ridley in particular so early instead of someone else?

Because Ridley has been a hugely requested character in the west since Brawl and was probably the most demanded Nintendo newcomer in the west for Smash 4, while also being a shocking inclusion because of his history with Smash and Sakurai's comments that made many people think he would never happen? E3 is for the big reveals and this is the unveiling of the game, and the only newcomer that would have topped Ridley is a huge third party character. But the order of reveal isn't important anyway, the order of reveal with the Brawl and Smash 4 newcomers pretty much had no significance, very few got revealed at the same time as a game of theirs (only one I can think of is Shulk being revealed in that Japanese direct that revealed the new 3DS Xenoblade port), with the only trend being that third parties get revealed at E3 (the only exception being Sonic, who as we know was a mid-development addition to Brawl and was probably in too early of a development state to show off at E3 2007).

I can almost guarantee that whatever character list they had in 2015 is not exactly identical to what will launch this December. It's probably generally close but will have some deviation as things actually developed, and it very well may have even allocated resources to develop an as of the time undecided character who would be used to promote a game that hadn't come out as of the project plan being formed (which is why someone like Pyra or something crazy like a freeform labo character aren't unbelievable).

The only alterations that will happen are low priority characters not making the final cut if there wasn't enough time for them and maybe a couple clones/Echoes being added. Completely new characters don't get added mid-development unless they have a case as special as Brawl Sonic's, which is pretty much not going to get replicated again, both because no other character could feasibly reach what Sonic was to Brawl, and that in the age of DLC delaying your game to add a character is completely impractical when you can just wait for DLC. For people claiming post-2015 non-Pokemon characters are going to make the base game, I wonder how many of them have actually read Sakurai's interviews and columns. Greninja's case was a special one in Smash 4, where Sakurai outright said it was an explicit exception made just for Pokemon, while also saying that if Awakening released just six months later (where Awakening released in Japan just one month before Smash 4's project plan was devised), Robin probably wouldn't have been in Smash 4. In Greninja's case he was also still decided really early on, probably before any actual development began, with Sakurai deciding him so early all he had to go off of was concept art and GameFreak's word, so it's not like he sat around waiting to see what the big hit would be.

As for your prior comment and the definitive dismissive tone it has, it reminds me a lot of when back during Smash 4 speculation of that John Knight guy who kept adamantly claiming over and over that Duck Hunt Dog would never happen and him being in Smash was nothing but a joke, and used that belief to discredit Ninka's leak even when evidence kept building towards it. Then what do you know, he ended up with a big old pile of eggs on his face. Shoddy "analysis" of the dismissed characters aside, who knows if they will make it or not, none of them are guaranteed and not every character is going to get added, but one should avoid coming in and acting sanctimonious on what characters won't make it in and which ones will, as Smash has the nasty tendency to have that blow up in people's faces, as have been demonstrated countless times; a good chunk of the internet already had that happen for Ultimate with Ridley's reveal.

 

[Will]

Uh-oh.

We just lost most of the roster.

Uh-oh.
Lucky for them, their games came out before they did (or in Corrin's case like five months, I think that's the shortest period of time someone's gone from game to Smash character).

into the trash it goes

 

[AzureFlame4]

Edit: My b, I kinda went off in a bad way in this post

 

[blazefan519]

Hoo boi, just realized we have only have one day left. Here's a question for everyone, what's the one thing you wanna see confirmed in this direct. For me, Subspace 2 Electric Boogaloo

It's great that you live in a world where time doesn't exist but for the rest of the world it does. They can only create so many characters at a time and any character that takes time to create takes time. To dispel popular theories, yes the clones in melee took time to create. Maybe not adding Pichu could have lead to adding Daisy all the way back in Melee. Point is Chrom being added is probably one of the worst choices unless they find a super interesting way to add him. We don't need another clone of a Fire Emblem character considering Marth has 2. (Yes, I know the differences with Roy,)

Sakurai plans all the characters he wants in and then develops them and then they tell us when the game will be finished based on all the time spent making those characters. I don't know how else to explain that to you. Melee clones took time to create? Of course they did kek. But significantly less than the unique ones which were why they were added, to pad out the roster. Maybe not adding Pichu could have just lead to not having Pichu in the game and we'd have one less character in Melee, which would have been the case had they not added Pichu. Why would adding a character they wanted in Smash 4 but cut for the exact reason echo fighters are a thing and to please Chrom fans and to pad out the roster be useless? And no Marth only has 1 even if you don't want to say it.

 

[Zinith]

Hoo boi, just realized we have only have one day left. Here's a question for everyone, what's the one thing you wanna see confirmed in this direct. For me, Subspace 2 Electric Boogaloo

Yoshi's tether recovery

 

[Impa4Smash]

It's great that you live in a world where time doesn't exist but for the rest of the world it does. They can only create so many characters at a time and any character that takes time to create takes time. To dispel popular theories, yes the clones in melee took time to create. Maybe not adding Pichu could have lead to adding Daisy all the way back in Melee. Point is Chrom being added is probably one of the worst choices unless they find a super interesting way to add him. We don't need another clone of a Fire Emblem character considering Marth has 2. (Yes, I know the differences with Roy,)

So you’d rather have a unique Chrom than have Chrom as an echo?

 

[Idon]

Hoo boi, just realized we have only have one day left. Here's a question for everyone, what's the one thing you wanna see confirmed in this direct. For me, Subspace 2 Electric Boogaloo

RANKED
ONLINE

 

[Jetsurge]

If irrelevant characters like Daisy get in as echo fighters I'm willing to wager money that highly requested and popular characters like

Lol Daisy aren't irrelevant. She's in almost every Mario spinoff and they sell millions, epsecially Mario Kart. It is very easy to justify adding Daisy because most people know who she is and have played a game with her in it.

 

[Shroob]

It's great that you live in a world where time doesn't exist but for the rest of the world it does. They can only create so many characters at a time and any character that takes time to create takes time. To dispel popular theories, yes the clones in melee took time to create. Maybe not adding Pichu could have lead to adding Daisy all the way back in Melee. Point is Chrom being added is probably one of the worst choices unless they find a super interesting way to add him. We don't need another clone of a Fire Emblem character considering Marth has 2. (Yes, I know the differences with Roy,)

Sure, we may not 'need' another Fire Emblem echo, but that in no way, shape or form dictates that we won't get one.

We've been told to not expect too many newcomers this game anyway, so we're going to get what we get, like it or not.



People probably aren't going to be happy with the Newcomer amount or choices sans Ridley, but with such a huge emphasis on bringing near everything back, you have to expect more Echoes to fill the void of actual new characters will most likely be made.

 

[Impa4Smash]

RANKED
ONLINE

This so much. Smash 4’s online just felt so pointless with the lack of progression unless I wanted to just kill some time

 

[AzureFlame4]

So you’d rather have a unique Chrom than have Chrom as an echo?

100% If they put out a unique Chrom rather than a echo that would be great. I imagine most people feel this way.

 

[Blargg888]

You got 14 games (technically 12 two of them were just remakes).

15 games, three are remakes.
Shadow Dragon, New Mystery of the Emblem, and Shadows of Valentia.

 

[Shroob]

Lol Daisy aren't irrelevant. She's in almost every Mario spinoff and they sell millions, epsecially Mario Kart. It is very easy to justify adding Daisy because most people know who she is and have played a game with her in it.

She kind of IS irrelevant though.

When it comes to Mario, she's basically a C or D list celebrity.

Yeah, she's 'famous', but nowhere near as impactful to the series in general, considering her only canon appearance was on a Game Boy game that most people don't even look back fondly on.


Daisy is basically a Mario character you get when you don't want to use Toad, but are also so far down to the bottom of the barrel.

 

[Zinith]

15 games, three are remakes.
Shadow Dragon, New Mystery of the Emblem, and Shadows of Valentia.

FE3 is basically a half-remake

 

[Omega Tyrant]

No harm done except for the numerous echos that could exist from underrepresented series as well not pissing people off with even more with more Fire Emblem characters when Shadow, Ken, or whoever could have been a better echo choice. Three characters from the same game is the biggest problem with Chrom. Let alone two echoes from the same game.

The amount of feasible Echo candidates is very limited as is, and the developmental resources they require is very minimal; if Chrom made it in while another didn't, they either wouldn't have mechanically worked as an Echo or Sakurai didn't see them as worthwhile to make an Echo, or in the case of third parties, probably had third party issues preventing it. Like the amount of suggested Echoes I seen that are both popular characters and similar enough in build to an existing playable character that they can mechanically work I can count with my fingers, there really isn't competition to be an Echo and they're probably working on a case-by-case basis.

 

[blazefan519]

RANKED
ONLINE

If only I could like a post more than once. Please give me ranked mode with proper matchmaking so we don't ever have For Glory Hell ever again.

 

[Shroob]

If Isabelle is getting in, I can almost assure that she's going to be an Echo of Villager, so that'd be 2 Echoes right there.

I honestly expect.....2~ more echos to be frank.


While I don't think we're going to drown in them like a lot of people think, I do think we'll probably have at the bare minimum 3-4 Echoes.

 

[Nethermoosen]

If we get a retro character like ROB or Duck Hunt, I sincerely hope it’s Arthur from Ghosts and Goblins.

 

[AzureFlame4]

Realistically what do a lot of people expect from the 8th? I expect one newcomer, an echo, maybe 3 stages, and a few new items. Add that on top of some changes to veterans.

 

[Shroob]

If we get a retro character like ROB or Duck Hunt, I sincerely hope it’s Arthur from Ghosts and Goblins.

I mean, considering he's owned by Capcom, would he be Retro, or 3rd party?

Because Simon could fit the same criteria.

 

[Onua]

My predictions

> Smash Direct opens up with Sakurai saying something
> Ashley gets shown
> Explains Ashley moveset a lil
> Show more stages
> Show changes to some more characters not shown
> Reveal an echo Fighter
> Finish it off with another newcomer trailer

 

[osby]

Realistically what do a lot of people expect from the 8th? I expect one newcomer, an echo, maybe 3 stages, and a few new items. Add that on top of some changes to veterans.

Same.
I also expect no dark horse characters like Geno. I think any new character will be like the ones we get until now: Popular and still around, regardless of their age.
And some new modes, particularly single player ones.

 

[Zinith]

Realistically what do a lot of people expect from the 8th? I expect one newcomer, an echo, maybe 3 stages, and a few new items. Add that on top of some changes to veterans.

That you listed, plus a new "Smash Run"-like mode and some more veteran changes

 

[blazefan519]

Realistically what do a lot of people expect from the 8th? I expect one newcomer, an echo, maybe 3 stages, and a few new items. Add that on top of some changes to veterans.

Same pretty much. Can't wait for the Assist Trophy genocide mass extermination to go along with all of this.

 

[osby]

Same pretty much. Can't wait for the Assist Trophy genocide to go along with all of this.

I'm not sure if genocide is the correct term, it implies Assist Trophy characters have something in common which fighters and other nonplayable characters don't.

 

[blazefan519]

I'm not sure if genocide is the correct term, it implies Assist Trophy characters have something in common which fighters and other nonplayable characters don't.

Well, now you know why I failed English.

 

[L9999]

Look I haven’t played Mother 3, but...

Lucas’s mom dies? UUUGGGGGHHH! WHY DID YOU SPOIL IT FOR ME!

It happens as soon as the game begins. It isn't a spoiler.

Honestly, no.

I get that people are tired of Fire Emblem having soo many characters, but I personally think it kinda deserves that many tbh.

I honestly feel like if we could just veer away from the oh-so-despised "Anime Swordsman" design, people would be more okay with it tbh.


Celica, for example, would be great. She'd bring something to the table that not a lot of Smashers do(Magic). Only Zelda and Robin can be considered dedicated 'mages'.

Ness and Lucas are also magic users.

Hoo boi, just realized we have only have one day left. Here's a question for everyone, what's the one thing you wanna see confirmed in this direct. For me, Subspace 2 Electric Boogaloo

Sakurai plans all the characters he wants in and then develops them and then they tell us when the game will be finished based on all the time spent making those characters. I don't know how else to explain that to you. Melee clones took time to create? Of course they did kek. But significantly less than the unique ones which were why they were added, to pad out the roster. Maybe not adding Pichu could have just lead to not having Pichu in the game and we'd have one less character in Melee, which would have been the case had they not added Pichu. Why would adding a character they wanted in Smash 4 but cut for the exact reason echo fighters are a thing and to please Chrom fans and to pad out the roster be useless? And no Marth only has 1 even if you don't want to say it.

Roy is a clone you like it or not. A very bad clone at that.

 

[Shroob]

It happens as soon as the game begins. It isn't a spoiler.


Ness and Lucas are also magic users.


Roy is a clone you like it or not. A very bad clone at that.

I don't consider Ness and Lucas magic users, because their **** is Psychic energy. And if you count Psychic energy as 'magic', then you effectively have to count Mewtwo and Lucario as 'magic' as well. Hell, you'd have to count every Pokemon as 'magic'.

Basically, you'd have to count "Every character with an energy based projectile that doesn't come from a firearm" as magic.

At least with PSI you can explain it, magic is magic, you don't gotta explain ****.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I'm not sure if genocide is the correct term, it implies Assist Trophy characters have something in common which fighters and other nonplayable characters don't.

I think culling be a better term. Considering that some Assist Trophies are in the pool of potential newcomers, but are forcibly removed and consigned to oblivion as an Assist Trophy character.

Either way, tomorrow's Bloody Wednesday. I'd be prepared beforehand.

 

[Will]

Ness and Lucas are also magic users.

This is so wrong on so many levels

 

[Shroob]

I think culling be a better term. Considering that some Assist Trophies are in the pool of potential newcomers, but are forcibly removed and consigned to oblivion as an Assist Trophy character.

Either way, tomorrow's Bloody Wednesday. I'd be prepared beforehand.

How about we just go full on Hollywood and call it:

The Purge

 

[Zinith]

Not really invested in characters getting disconfirmed through Assist trophies