Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TheFritzle]

I don't really care that much about Vergeben's leak, I'm just happy that Buzzwole is getting some kind of love, even if it won't last long. I almost never see him brought up when considering characters, so it was kind of interesting seeing so many people bring him up.

 

[Enchess]

Only on the basis of the fact that a well-known leaker swooped on by and supposedly axed three of his competitors from the running.

Sorry, that was half-joking. I have seen some Buzzwole speculation before today, so while I think it would be disingenuous for people to call him "obvious" if he gets confirmed, he wouldn't be outta left field

 

[Zinith]

Not to be confrontational or anything, but I consider my boi more adorable than Isabelle. If I allow HIM to get hurt and killed many times over in Smash, then I could for Isabelle

 

[WallyPalmer]

Zeraora and Lucario don't have the same body type though.

It's sort of the same thing as Dillon for Sonic (blegh)

They're actually shockingly (pun intended) similar now that I look at them and all the unfortunate ship art on the first page of google.

Those 2 actually have surprisingly similar proportions so it could work I suppose, but them fighting alike would make no sense anyway

I don't think we've actually seen how Zeraora fights, but going off his general moveset, I don't think it's too far of a stretch to see Lucario's moveset on Zeraora. They even have the same relative stat spread, being mixed-attackers primarily.

However, Zeraora was likely one of the last pokémon concepted for SuMo, only having been released this April. I'm not quite sure if it was conceived and fleshed out to a smashable degree by the Dec 2015 deadline. It may be marginally possible for it to be a low-effort clone, but I don't see it making it in and also don't know why I'm arguing for it's potential.

 

[KMDP]

They're actually shockingly (pun intended) similar now that I look at them and all the unfortunate ship art on the first page of google.


I don't think we've actually seen how Zeraora fights, but going off his general moveset, I don't think it's too far of a stretch to see Lucario's moveset on Zeraora. They even have the same relative stat spread, being mixed-attackers primarily.

However, Zeraora was likely one of the last pokémon concepted for SuMo, only having been released this April. I'm not quite sure if it was conceived and fleshed out to a smashable degree by the Dec 2015 deadline. It may be marginally possible for it to be a low-effort clone, but I don't see it making it in and also don't know why I'm arguing for it's potential.

Fan-art (of potentially dubious quality) does not equal official art though.

They really aren't that similar.

 

[Enchess]

Not to be confrontational or anything, but I consider my boi more adorable than Isabelle. If I allow HIM to get hurt and killed many times over in Smash, then I could for Isabelle

Agreed. Yoshi is definitely cuter than Isabelle. Hitting her with axes, swords, bullets, etc is fair game.

This does have me thinking though. Is there anyone too cute to beat up in Smash?

 

[Misery Brick]

Pit is an Absolute Unit


It's real dunsparce hours up in this house rn

Anyways, is it possible we're overlooking the possibility of the pokemon newcomer being an Echo/Clone? I don't think Vegetaburrito ever said that the Gen-7 pokemon was unique. That said, I'd be fine with whatever. I'd prefer a pick that wasn't so "obvious" though, buzzwole being the pokemon I like mentioned the most, and not just because it'd be good for my baras.

I know you're joking about Dunsparce, but I'd actually love it if it got in. Fills two quotas, one being of "proper" Gen 2 representation and the first serpentine character! He could also have multi-hittting attacks with his tail, wings for him to use as a recovery, and a shadow sneak type move with dig!
Look at my pal:

It would still be credibility towards him; regardless of how "obvious" you think she is, the opinion on her making it in are heavily mixed at best, whether it be from "Isabelle is too peaceful for Smash!", moveset concerns, or whatever reason. Her name of course pops up a lot but a significant amount of people, if not the majority, weren't predicting her, and thus it's not a "safe" pick to put her on a fake leak.

To dismiss it because of that reminds me of when people would dismiss every character Gematsu got right after Wii Fit Trainer because they were supposedly "safe" and "obvious", then after it was all done they would convince themselves it was feasible to just guess all the those characters when they probably don't know anyone who got even half of them right in their pre-Gematsu predictions.

There would be no denying the fact it would give him credibility to his words, however I think that he's not necessarily comparable to Gematsu right this instant. As he doesn't have that credibility that Gematsu had at this moment, but that's just due to the nature of how things are playing out right now with reveals and information drops. There is a chance that everything he spoke upon is true, but we won't know until the game drops.
But yeah, I wouldn't throw anything he says out the window, like I wouldn't accept as gospel, just because something seems very "safe and obvious", I mean after all many predicted Palutena and Mega Man were getting in from what I saw.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Yes Vergeben! Thanks for disconfirming one of my most wanted characters!

Calm down, what he says isn't concretely fact yet, we could still get Decidueye, or we could get nothing. Besides, he has no concrete evidence, does he? That, and he's got a pretty shady history from what I've heard, so there's no real reason to panic just yet.

 

[WallyPalmer]

Not to be confrontational or anything, but I consider my boi more adorable than Isabelle. If I allow HIM to get hurt and killed many times over in Smash, then I could for Isabelle

I absolutely adore Isabelle, and I can confidently say that I don't trust Yoshi, and his strange exoskeleton/saddle. Creatures should not be biologically made to be ridden. It is a mistake of God.

Fan-art (of potentially dubious quality) does not equal official art though.

They really aren't that similar.

Might have to agree to disagree with you on this one.

I know you're joking about Dunsparce, but I'd actually love it if it got in. Fills two quotas, one being of "proper" Gen 2 representation and the first serpentine character! He could also have multi-hittting attacks with his tail, wings for him to use as a recovery, and a shadow sneak type move with dig!
Look at my pal:

Dunsparce is actually one of my favorite pokemon, no lie. I'd love to see him in smash, but he's not necessarily the type of character I'd campaign for.

 

[wildvine47]

Actually I forgot one very real option for the Gen 7 mon, which is just plain old Rowlet. I think people might be sleeping on the lil guy considering he's not fully evolved, but if you wanna talk pushed mons from Gen 7, Rowlet's far and above the winner in that regard.

So really, I'm thinking what it actually comes down to is Rowlet vs. Tapu Koko vs. Incineroar for our Gen 7 rep. Hopefully we get them confirmed soon so the arguing doesn't last for months and months.

 

[Nonno Umby]

The more I think about it the more Zeraora as an Echo of Lucario makes sense.
If a new Pokémon character wasn't planned from the start, it would make sense to add an echo. Sakurai, while he knew about Gen VII, he also knew that they would have became old around the time Smash games out (in fact Gen VIII is coming next year). Adding the last Pokémon from Gen VII would still make it feel fresh even this year. He is also going to star in a movie IIRC.

Now all we have to see is how much Zaraora can really be an Echo of Lucario, since we have seen so little of him.

 

[Mutsukki]

Actually I forgot one very real option for the Gen 7 mon, which is just plain old Rowlet. I think people might be sleeping on the lil guy considering he's not fully evolved, but if you wanna talk pushed mons from Gen 7, Rowlet's far and above the winner in that regard.

So really, I'm thinking what it actually comes down to is Rowlet vs. Tapu Koko vs. Incineroar for our Gen 7 rep. Hopefully we get them confirmed soon so the arguing doesn't last for months and months.

Another small, round Pokémon with multiple jumps? No thanks

 

[KMDP]

Might have to agree to disagree with you on this one.

Lucario's official height: 3' 11"
Zeraora's official height: 4' 11"

Now, canon heights don't really play a part in Smash (see: Kirby and Olimar); but not only is Zeraora's stance way different to Lucario's, it's significantly bigger.

 

[SvartWolf]

I've been calling for Simon for a literal decade now, lol. But people now act like he's the single biggest missing character, which, naw.

yeah.. people are bandwagoning now.. but I don't think is a bad thing. lot of people have come to the thread after playing that castlevania games in the nes and snes for the first time, which is great imo. and the netflix series certainly have helped...

And is true we never been K.Roll or Ridley status popular, but the support existed even if most of the people that wanted the character knew to keep their expectations low cause Castlevania, like all konami stuff not named Metal Gear Solid, have been slowly vanishing into obscurity. but the support was there, small, but existed. (I even remember Brawl's support thread)

I really think that Simon is a decently wanted character (at least for people that have known the series, obviously people that never heard of castlevania don't know of him) but most people always considered him a pipe dream, specially considering that the Konami fade started a lot before the Kojima episode. (I mean, look at silent hill).

This leak mostly made everyone relize that ... what if? what if he isn't such a pipe dream? I mostly say that Simon skyrocket in popularity comes mostly from there, fueled by the access to the NES and SNES mini.

I mean.. if the same leaker starts saying that decidueye or the top picks pokemon arent in... suddenly everyone starts asking themselves if he is speaking truth. if Simon wouldn't be at least liked, people would been crucifixing Verge from way before. (although Ridley may have helped).

 

[Omega Tyrant]

There would be no denying the fact it would give him credibility to his words, however I think that he's not necessarily comparable to Gematsu right this instant. As he doesn't have that credibility that Gematsu had at this moment, but that's just due to the nature of how things are playing out right now with reveals and information drops. There is a chance that everything he spoke upon is true, but we won't know until the game drops.
But yeah, I wouldn't throw anything he says out the window, like I wouldn't accept as gospel, just because something seems very "safe and obvious", I mean after all many predicted Palutena and Mega Man were getting in from what I saw.

Of course he isn't there yet and it remains to be seen if he is legitimate or got some lucky guesses, but each thing that turns out correct builds credibility along the way, and I bring up Gematsu as people were constantly trying to dismiss its credibility by claiming any characters it got right were "safe and obvious" outside of WFT, so I'm just cautioning against people doing the same thing again and going into the extreme end of skepticism.

 

[NeonBurrito]

With all this topic of Vergeben being legit or not, I'd like to post something I posted long ago about the subject:

I don't believe it for a minute. I know I'm late to this party, but I don't.

Granted, I really don't believe in any leaks unless they're gameplay footage, considering the Rayman leak of yesteryear, but he has a history of editing his leak posts, (noted on reddit by the little *) and seems to get numerous things incorrect.

Just skimming the Nintendo-only section on his most recent of the two posts (that he's edited, mind you), he's said that the January 11th direct would likely focus on some of the following:

• Metroid Prime 4 ("It will have some presence in the Direct.")
• A new Animal Crossing game ("which should be covered in the Direct.")
• A new Pokemon game ("Pokemon Gen 8 should get covered and some kind of highlight in the Direct")
• GTA V port ("GTAV having a Switch port release and likely around Q3 and highlighted in the Direct is something I heard")
• Dragon Quest XI ("Dragon Quest XI should be appearing during the January Direct")
• Undertale ("Undertale coming to Switch and being announced in the January Direct")

And he got nearly none of it right! He didn't mention:

• The World Ends With You Port
• Pokken DX
• Kirby Star Allies
• New Mario Tennis
• Ys VIII
• Luigi's Balloon World
• Mario + Rabbids DLC
• PAYDAY 2
• Celeste
• Tropical Freeze Port + Funky Kong

None of it. The only thing he got right was that Dark Souls Remastered was a thing, BUT not only did he say he didn't think it would be in the January direct, but the fact that it was multiplatform was announced near minutes after the direct ended, whereas he though it may have been Switch exclusive. And even then, rumors of the game had been spreading before he had ever even said anything about it. (Absolutely no mention of the game in his original post...)

While some of those things eventually did come true (Undertale was announced later on in a March direct, a Wario game was announced as well), we still haven't seen anything else he said we would've seen four months ago. Alongside that, we're still missing other things like Injustice 2, Dragon Ball Fighter Z, Soul Calibur VI, Hearthstone (which has literally been deconfirmed, by the way), Killing Floor 2, Nier Automata, amongst many others. No way in hell Fire Emblem 16 is having a May release date when we STILL know nothing about it.

Even still, that's just looking at his Nintendo stuff. I have no goddamn clue how inaccurate is other stuff could be. I didn't bother.

Plus, there's always the case of "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is." Saying Ridley is going to be in Smash is a big *** claim (no pun intended). He's likely one of the most hyped up characters not already in the game, and the idea of Konami coming back to work on Smash AND the Ice Climbers returning just add fuel to the hypothetical fire.

As far as I can tell, the sole thing he's gotten right was that the TMNT and Enchantress would be in Injustice 2. But even then, something like that has absolutely jack all to do with Nintendo, the Switch, or Smash.

This whole leak is entirely a matter of "It has characters I like, so it must be legit!" The guy has an extremely incorrect leaking streak, a terrible reputation within the community, is known for constantly editing his posts to make himself look right, and anything he has gotten right has absolutely nothing to do with Nintendo. If the exact same guy said that the newcomers were going to be Bad Boxart Mega Man, Fire Flower Mario, and Raichu, no one would believe him.

Or at least, that's my take on it. He could be right. Who knows? Take everything with a pinch of salt.

Also I don't believe it because Simon Belmont and Ridley would make me extremely happy and Smash newcomers almost always let me down so I doubt it

Remember to take everything with a grain of salt.

On the topic of Incineroar, I've recently felt that he's been a rather slept on pick, simply due to how Ash has been meant to get one in the anime since before Sun and Moon were even released:

However, with Decidueye / Mimikyu / Lycanroc out of the picture, I do feel like there's an obvious "best Gen VII Pokemon," still remaining.

Spoiler

 

[vaanrose]

Lucario's official height: 3' 11"
Zeraora's official height: 4' 11"

Now, canon heights don't really play a part in Smash (see: Kirby and Olimar); but not only is Zeraora's stance way different to Lucario's, it's significantly bigger.

6'7" Mewtwo staring down 3'11" Lucario

 

[WallyPalmer]

6'7" Mewtwo staring down 3'11" Lucario

I was actually about to post the exact same image but then decided that the discussion sucked.

 

[KMDP]

6'7" Mewtwo staring down 3'11" Lucario

I was actually about to post the exact same image but then decided that the discussion sucked.

Like I said, Canon Heights aren't really used in Smash.

Charizard would barely be bigger than Pokémon Trainer, otherwise.

What's more important is that Zeraora's stance is radically different, anyway.

With that being said, I'm going to drop the discussion here.

 

[WallyPalmer]

With all this topic of Vergeben being legit or not, I'd like to post something I posted long ago about the subject:

Remember to take everything with a grain of salt.

On the topic of Incineroar, I've recently felt that he's been a rather slept on pick, simply due to how Ash has been meant to get one in the anime since before Sun and Moon were even released:
View attachment 155611

However, with Decidueye / Mimikyu / Lycanroc out of the picture, I do feel like there's an obvious "best Gen VII Pokemon," still remaining.

Spoiler

Sorry, that's not Cutiefly, the best Gen VII Pokémon.

Good Vergeben Info, tho. I'm not giving that guy a second of my time, despite how much I'd like my beautiful Dog Leslie Knope Daughter in smash.

 

[Nonno Umby]

Question: Was Zeraora datamined when Sun and Moon came out? Because if it was already in the game it might even been chosen as an unique character rather than an echo.
I'm asking because I remember Volcanion being in X/Y since 2013, even tho it was released 3 years after the game's release

 

[CodeBlue_]

>Mimikyu in the "Vergeben is Correct" outcome
>says it wont be mimkyu
bro i think you need to work a little bit on that

Welp my dumb ass didn't read the actual leak

>Looks at what Verge actually said

what the ****? I guess he is backing on the Gengar leak? That is definitely out there.

 

[blazefan519]

Question: Was Zeraora datamined when Sun and Moon came out? Because if it was already in the game it might even been chosen as an unique character rather than an echo.
I'm asking because I remember Volcanion being in X/Y since 2013, even tho it was released 3 years after the game's release

iirc no, It was datamined in USUM not SuMo. Marshadow was datamined for SuMo tho so it is a possibility.

 

[WallyPalmer]

Question: Was Zeraora datamined when Sun and Moon came out? Because if it was already in the game it might even been chosen as an unique character rather than an echo.
I'm asking because I remember Volcanion being in X/Y since 2013, even tho it was released 3 years after the game's release

Oh, no. I believe it was only added to USUM.

something about ninjas

 

[RandomAce]

Alright I’m heading off to bed. Today ended up being more hectic than I thought.

I also want to see everyone’s else opinions on this tomorrow.

Goodnight Everyone! And keep on hoping!

 

[UberMadman]

Zeraora is still to this day not obtainable in Sun and Moon because the data for it literally does not exist in those games. Unlike Lycanroc-Dusk, there also was no evidence of its existence on the PGL prior to its reveal. It is highly likely that Zeraora wasn't even designed until after the release of Sun and Moon, which would put the time of completion of its design about a year or so after the project plan was finished. For these reasons, I highly doubt Zeraora even had a chance to be considered for SSBU.

 

[blazefan519]

Alright I’m heading off to bed. Today ended up being more hectic than I thought.

I also want to see everyone’s else opinions on this tomorrow.

Goodnight Everyone! And keep on hoping!

Good night!

 

[Nonno Umby]

iirc no, It was datamined in USUM not SuMo. Marshadow was datamined for SuMo tho so it is a possibility.

Oh, no. I believe it was only added to USUM.

something about ninjas

Thanks for the response.

This is very interesting to hear.
But while I was searching for more Zeraora infos, I sumbked upon these images were it stand upright just like Lucario

(Please forgive the low quality).

I mean he could technically work as an Echo, I suppose.

Alright I’m heading off to bed. Today ended up being more hectic than I thought.

I also want to see everyone’s else opinions on this tomorrow.

Goodnight Everyone! And keep on hoping!

Goodnight, although it is 9 AM in my country ahah.

 

[perfectchaos83]

Zeraora is still to this day not obtainable in Sun and Moon because the data for it literally does not exist in those games. Unlike Lycanroc-Dusk, there also was no evidence of its existence on the PGL prior to its reveal. It is highky likely that Zeraora wasn't even designed until after the release of Sun and Moon, which would put the time of completion of its design about a year or so after the project plan was finished. For these reasons, I highly doubt Zeraora even had a chance to be considered for SSBU.

My conspiracy theory is that Sakurai wasn't sold on any Gen VII Pokemon and then Zeraora was inherently designed to be for Smash. Is this likely? Not in a million years. But if it Happens, I wanna be right.

 

[WallyPalmer]

Zeraora is still to this day not obtainable in Sun and Moon because the data for it literally does not exist in those games. Unlike Lycanroc-Dusk, there also was no evidence of its existence on the PGL prior to its reveal. It is highky likely that Zeraora wasn't even designed until after the release of Sun and Moon, which would put its design about a year or so after the project plan was finished. For these reasons, I highly doubt Zeraora even had a chance to be considered for SSBU.

Yeah no doubt he's unlikely as heck. However, if he was in the game, his movie comes out internationally in November, which would be a decent time for a reveal.

Anyways, here's a character concept for all you 3 AM folks

White Guy from the Detroit Human game

Spoiler: moveset

Neutral B: Gun
Side B: Fanart
Down B: Dubious Racial Allegory
Up B: Gun but different.

Final Smash: Gun again

If sakurai doesn't add him I'll call for a boycott on the game to all my 3 twitter followers.
thank you.

 

[Deleted member]

Welp my dumb *** didn't read the actual leak

>Looks at what Verge actually said

what the ****? I guess he is backing on the Gengar leak? That is definitely out there.

Isn't it just
"Decidueye isn't the Gen 7 character"
"It isn't Mimikyu or Lycanroc either"

That would imply that it's still a Gen 7 Pokémon, just not one of those three.

 

[Zinith]

I absolutely adore Isabelle, and I can confidently say that I don't trust Yoshi, and his strange exoskeleton/saddle. Creatures should not be biologically made to be ridden. It is a mistake of God.

Yoshi can handle it (and be adorable doing it)

 

[Diddy Kong]

The more I think about it the more Zeraora as an Echo of Lucario makes sense.
If a new Pokémon character wasn't planned from the start, it would make sense to add an echo. Sakurai, while he knew about Gen VII, he also knew that they would have became old around the time Smash games out (in fact Gen VIII is coming next year). Adding the last Pokémon from Gen VII would still make it feel fresh even this year. He is also going to star in a movie IIRC.

Now all we have to see is how much Zaraora can really be an Echo of Lucario, since we have seen so little of him.

Am down for a Lucario Echo, without the Aura effect. But don't know about this Pokemon at all... is he really that similar?

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Welp my dumb *** didn't read the actual leak

>Looks at what Verge actually said

what the ****? I guess he is backing on the Gengar leak? That is definitely out there.

Isn't it just
"Decidueye isn't the Gen 7 character"
"It isn't Mimikyu or Lycanroc either"

???

Vergeben claims it's a gen 7 pokemon (having answered yes when someone asked him if it was a gen 7 pokemon), so Gengar and the other non-gen 7 candidates aren't in consideration for this.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Watch the 7th gen Pokémon be the first one they revealed to everyone's shock.

 

[CodeBlue_]

Vergeben claims it's a gen 7 pokemon (having answered yes when someone asked him if it was a gen 7 pokemon), so Gengar and the other non-gen 7 candidates aren't in consideration for this.

Isn't it just
"Decidueye isn't the Gen 7 character"
"It isn't Mimikyu or Lycanroc either"

???

[making myself look like an idiot in front of everyone] [me] [reading the actual leak]



thanks for the clarification, i think I should go to bed. I'm definitely out of it tonight.

 

[Nonno Umby]

Am down for a Lucario Echo, without the Aura effect. But don't know about this Pokemon at all... is he really that similar?

IDK, since it has yet to be officially released, but I've read that they share a similar stat spread. And also being an Echo would let him be added later in development, which makes sense for him since he was introduced later than other Gen VII Pokémons (which means he is also more relevant than most of them, even with Gen VIA behind the corner)

 

[KMDP]

Alright I’m heading off to bed. Today ended up being more hectic than I thought.

I also want to see everyone’s else opinions on this tomorrow.

Goodnight Everyone! And keep on hoping!

Good night, RandomAce.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Thanks for the response.

This is very interesting to hear.
But while I was searching for more Zeraora infos, I sumbked upon these images were it stand upright just like Lucario
View attachment 155613
(Please forgive the low quality).

I mean he could technically work as an Echo, I suppose.


Goodnight, although it is 9 AM in my country ahah.

He's still built quite a bit differently from Lucario, it's not asinine like Mimyikyu being a Pikachu Echo but I'm not convinced you could slap that model over Lucario's skeleton and have him do Lucario's stuff without any abnormalities.

 

[Deleted member]

Watch the 7th gen Pokémon be the first one they revealed to everyone's shock. View attachment 155617

Well, there IS the fact the alternative coloring (not the Shiny) hasn't been made available yet....
....and technically, anyone can have a Magearna at any time past a certain point in their game with QR Codes that never expire :V