Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

You do realize how massive the SSE was? Like I said, the mode by itself was essentially its own game in size, the cutscenes were pure CGI that altogether were nearly a whole movie's worth in length, and over half of Brawl's disc space was stuff devoted to the SSE. If the SSE didn't exist, that is a hell of a lot of developmental resources that is freed up for the rest of the game, and Sakurai himself said Brawl had several more planned characters (i.e. the Forbidden Seven) and other content that got scrapped because of developmental constraints.

I mean, there's no 100% guarantee that having no SSE would have given us the Forbidden 7. That gets into hypothetical "what if" scenarios, especially because there's no concrete info about what would or would have happened if Sakurai chose to do X instead of Y.

Could we have gotten more characters if SSE wasn't worked on? Maybe, but there's also just as equal a chance that if SSE didn't exist that there would have been something else that wasn't characters worked on instead. Or we might have gotten the game released sooner, who knows?

It's all about priorities for game devs. Not every feature in the planning phase can make it in sadly, so devs have to pick what they can do with the time they're given. For Sakurai, he must have felt like having a story mode was important, so he focused on making sure there was an enjoyable story mode. All in all, I do think it's a little bit of a stretch to say we would have gotten more characters if there wasn't a SSE. The truth of the matter is that there's no way of knowing if that would have happened, because, well, it isn't what happened.

Just my two cents on the matter, though. I am by no means a game dev expert, so it's very probable that I'm 100% wrong.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Dunno still on the Adventure Mode or new SSE however - I dunno what'd make them engaging to justify huge resources to spend on (specificially SSE2). Adventure Mode also needs some good overhaul due how Melee's format feels aged today in comparison.

The problem with Melee's Adventure mode is how clearly visibly rushed the mode is after the first few stages; the Mushroom Kingdom and Underground Maze platforming levels are neat, if a bit basic, but then after the Escape From Brinstar stage the mode devolves into a static Classic mode for the rest of the game with just normal fights (over half the stages are just normal fights), with the only breaks being the racing the cars in the Mute City stage (which while fun plays more like a bonus stage) and the poorly-implemented "climbing" Icicle Mountain stage. If they expanded on the seemingly original intention of having each stage be more like the Mushroom Kingdom and Underground Maze stages, with SSE-styled bosses also done instead of finishing the stages with normal fights, I think the mode would be a lot better received.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I’m perfectly fine with Smash Ultimate not having a story mode like SSE. All they need to give me for a single player experience is an Adventure Mode like Melee and Smash Run (keep Smash Tour away...even though I’d still play that mess of a mode cause I’m a sick ****)

Agreed.

As much as I like the MvC-ish idea, I kind of prefer that Smash doesn't concern itself with serviceable plots. Other fighting franchises trip over each other trying to set up lore, while Smash just shrugs, eliminates the middleman and lets you mess around until you fight God.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The only problem with trying to revert back to Melee's Adventure mode is the fact that the drastic changes to the Final Smashes have caused Giga Bowser to lose his fully playable status. As a result, something else would have to cover the secret final boss role.

 

[Pyra]

Just make a bunch of cutscenes I can unlock and watch in the extras menu or something, I'll be okay.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The only thing I miss about Subspace is seeing such unique pairings team up to take down bad guys.

And it also gave us the single greatest thing to happen:

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

The only problem with trying to revert back to Melee's Adventure mode is the fact that the drastic changes to the Final Smashes have caused Giga Bowser to lose his fully playable status. As a result, something else would have to cover the secret final boss role.

Just have the Hands and Core in there, they make more sense anyways.

 

[Roberk]

Honestly just make another crossover game if people want the cinematic Story Mode experience. SSE already equals a "game" on its own.

I know a lot of you will quote me and say that Smash will lose its "magic" for not being the big Nintendo crossover game anymore. IMO Smash on its own is only so much as a crossover when it only releases every 4-7 years and a vanilla story experience like SSE can ruin almost every other aspect of Brawl. We have the characters, just make them actually interact. I want dialogue, I know some characters don't speak but don't restrict the ones that do. Smash is nice for having a bunch of different characters and franchises and companies on the screen at the same time but it's the entire "character interaction" that you could only get in a crossover is pretty lackluster.

I know MK8 has had some non-Mario characters (and might even be getting Kirby with that Funko Pop leak) so it'd be a nice franchise to foster the next big crossover game. Although it is "Mario"kart so the amount of crossovers is limited. Also, racing is not a good genre for a cinematic story experience. Maybe some sort of RPG could work. That way the game would be in a genre known for these cinematic stories that people want.

My point is that Subspace doesn't really fit in Smash. It destroyed Brawl, and it was lackluster in gameplay, story, and character interactions that should be expected in a crossover. Smash holds Subspace back and Subspace holds Smash back. I really don't want Ultimate to be held back by "extra" stuff which restricted Brawl and Smash 4 from seeing their true potential.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Just have the Hands and Core in there, they make more sense anyways.

Master Hand, Crazy Hand, and Master Core are Classic mode bosses though.

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

Just make a bunch of cutscenes I can unlock and watch in the extras menu or something, I'll be okay.

Smash Wii U Did do that. You get to Watch TRAILERS.
Honestly. I think the Trailer cutscenes are a nice alternative to the Cutscenes for SSE. I enjoy them, and all of them look so nice.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

I mean, there's no 100% guarantee that having no SSE would have given us the Forbidden 7. That gets into hypothetical "what if" scenarios, especially because there's no concrete info about what would or would have happened if Sakurai chose to do X instead of Y.

Could we have gotten more characters if SSE wasn't worked on? Maybe, but there's also just as equal a chance that if SSE didn't exist that there would have been something else that wasn't characters worked on instead. Or we might have gotten the game released sooner, who knows?

It's all about priorities for game devs. Not every feature in the planning phase can make it in sadly, so devs have to pick what they can do with the time they're given. For Sakurai, he must have felt like having a story mode was important, so he focused on making sure there was an enjoyable story mode. All in all, I do think it's a little bit of a stretch to say we would have gotten more characters if there wasn't a SSE. The truth of the matter is that there's no way of knowing if that would have happened, because, well, it isn't what happened.

Just my two cents on the matter, though. I am by no means a game dev expert, so it's very probable that I'm 100% wrong.

With no SSE, that is a huge amount of developmental resources freed up for the rest of the game, ergo much of the other planned content that was cut from insufficient resources like the Forbidden Seven could have been finished in time, not to mention better polishing for the rest of the game (like the balancing could have been potentially better if more resources could have been allocated to it). Smash was proven to be a huge franchise at that point, with Melee being the Gamecube's best-selling game, so it's not like Nintendo would have given Sakurai so much less to work with if he didn't plan to do a SSE that we would have ended up with the same game, and it's not like Sakurai would have planned even less characters if he wasn't planning to do a hugely-intensive story mode anymore.

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

This going to sound odd, but hear me out. I Think SSE was good for the smash series. Now let me explain what I'm thinking here.

All I'm gonna say is one simple sentence: Now Sakurai knows what not to do.

 

[Pyra]

Smash Wii U Did do that. You get to Watch TRAILERS.
Honestly. I think the Trailer cutscenes are a nice alternative to the Cutscenes for SSE. I enjoy them, and all of them look so nice.

I kinda meant cutscenes in the same vein as SSE.

Trailers are nice but not the same in the slightest imo
I need more things on the same level as Captain Falcon sliding into and killing a dozen pikmin

And it also gave us the single greatest thing to happen:

And this.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Master Hand, Crazy Hand, and Master Core are Classic mode bosses though.

True, but what could they put in here, Cyclopean Medusa? Mutated Marx? Ganon?

 

[Idon]

I kinda meant cutscenes in the same vein as SSE.

Trailers are nice but not the same in the slightest imo
I need more things on the same level as Captain Falcon sliding into and killing a dozen pikmin

Maybe captain falcon can finally land a falcon punch, lmao

 

[Just a random scrub]

The only problem with trying to revert back to Melee's Adventure mode is the fact that the drastic changes to the Final Smashes have caused Giga Bowser to lose his fully playable status. As a result, something else would have to cover the secret final boss role.

(Shrugs) Well.... they COULD still decide to make a fully playable Giga Bowser specifically for an Adventure Mode..... but somehow, something tells me that isn't extremely likely.

On to the topic at hand of a SSE2: I'd love it (and as much of a development hog as the original Subspace was, I think it was critical in establishing the Brawl's identity as a game and a great addition to Smash Bros), but it's extremely unlikely and would probably result in too much other content getting axed, so as much as it pains me to admit it....... it might be for the best if we didn't get a Subspace Emissary 2 in the base game.

(If we're talkin' DLC tho..... that's another story entirely. If they decided to do a SSE2 as DLC, then the issue of it's development cost cutting into the rest of the game's content wouldn't be much of an issue anymore, and you can bet that I'd buy the **** out of that ****. This would actually be a very smart move now that I think about it; spending the development time polishing the base game to make it as lit as possible, and THEN starting work on SSE2 whenever the **** they feel like it, because SSE is basically it's own game.)

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

I kinda meant cutscenes in the same vein as SSE.

Trailers are nice but not the same in the slightest imo
I need more things on the same level as Captain Falcon sliding into and killing a dozen pikmin


And this.

Yeah, I know that's what you meant. I was just joking.

 

[Pyra]

The only problem with trying to revert back to Melee's Adventure mode is the fact that the drastic changes to the Final Smashes have caused Giga Bowser to lose his fully playable status. As a result, something else would have to cover the secret final boss role.

Tabuu.

Also as a playable character.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

True, but what could they put in here, Cyclopean Medusa? Mutated Marx? Ganon?

Definitely not Ganon, since he's already Ganondorf's Final Smash.

Tabuu.

Also as a playable character.

Considering that Tabuu is dead, I don't see him making any kind of return.

 

[Luminario]

Y'all are forgetting the TRUE star of SSE

Spoiler

She was so carefree. Honestly? Iconic.

 

[Deleted member]

Considering that Tabuu is dead, I don't see him making any kind of return.

Tabuu Soul

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

Tabuu Soul

In Classic Sakurai Fashion. I mean, Just look at the Kirby Games!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Tabuu Soul

Considering that the Soul bosses are stronger than the originals, it would seem very awkward to face such a foe when the difficulty is set to be too easy.

In Classic Sakurai Fashion. I mean, Just look at the Kirby Games!

Last I've checked, the Soul bosses are not Sakurai's creations.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Y'all are forgetting the TRUE star of SSE

Spoiler

She was so carefree. Honestly? Iconic.

Stuff like this is the reason I want to see another SSE.

The only thing I miss about Subspace is seeing such unique pairings team up to take down bad guys.

And it also gave us the single greatest thing to happen:

Dedede in Subspace Emissary was the real MVP. Dude realized Tabuu's plan and implemented a way to stop them even if he failed by putting the pieces in place for the de-trophy-ication of everyone.

Tabuu and Ganondorf were playing checkers while Dedede was playing 6 DIMENSIONAL CHESS.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

In Classic Sakurai Fashion. I mean, Just look at the Kirby Games!

The ones he didn't make...

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

Was it ever proved that "Prai_Mai" of the Forbidden Seven was an actual character? If not, then wouldn't it be the "Forbidden Six?"

----

 

[Deleted member]

Considering that the Soul bosses are stronger than the originals, it would seem very awkward to face such a foe when the difficulty is set to be too easy.

Aren't we discussing a replacement for Giga Bowser, who cannot be fought on easy?

 

[McSpanker]

IMO, I think if they want to do a story mode that's anywhere near as big as SSE was, it should definitely be DLC. I'm one of the few people who was a huge fan of the SSE but it is definitely obvious it took a toll on Brawl overall and the SSE was no where near as cool as it could have been. Personally, I would prefer for them to work on the game and then after releasing it, put all resources into another SSE. I'd probably buy it for 40 bucks and I would take it over literally any DLC characters. Although I know that will never happen, seeing as releasing DLC characters at 10 a pop will probably make them way more money and probably for less effort too

 

[Pyra]

Considering that Tabuu is dead, I don't see him making any kind of return.

Since when does death mean anything? Especially when it comes to being playable. OoT Ganondorf has died.
Any amount of campy writing can easily bring the dude back in any regard. Smash logic? He probably had a stock leftover.

Or it could be Tabuu's brother, Shamuu.
Kinda swims more than flies around, but same deal.

Considering that the Soul bosses are stronger than the originals, it would seem very awkward to face such a foe when the difficulty is set to be too easy.

I mean, no reason for him to appear on any difficulty than on the hardest, right? Being a secret boss and all
It doesn't have to be a step-by-step nearly carbon copy of Melee's adventure, right?

 

[OdnetninAges]

At the end of the Jump Force initial reveal, there’s a shot where Light and Ryuk are standing on top of a building looking below.

I know that. I was asking where you heard they weren't playable, which Cutie Gwen already provided a source for long before you.

 

[Deleted member]

Y'all are forgetting the TRUE star of SSE

Spoiler

She was so carefree. Honestly? Iconic.

A majority of my laughing during that mode was watching Peach do things like that.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Aren't we discussing a replacement for Giga Bowser, who cannot be fought on easy?

Tabuu is no Giga Bowser replacement though, since the two are fought differently; the former has an HP meter, much like with Master Hand and Crazy Hand, while the latter operated like a fully playable fighter, but could not be used without hacking.

 

[Deleted member]

Or it could be Tabuu's brother, Shamuu.
Kinda swims more than flies around, but same deal.

Ecco the Dolphin for Smash.

 

[Just a random scrub]

IMO, I think if they want to do a story mode that's anywhere near as big as SSE was, it should definitely be DLC. I'm one of the few people who was a huge fan of the SSE but it is definitely obvious it took a toll on Brawl overall and the SSE was no where near as cool as it could have been. Personally, I would prefer for them to work on the game and then after releasing it, put all resources into another SSE. I'd probably buy it for 40 bucks and I would take it over literally any DLC characters. Although I know that will never happen, seeing as releasing DLC characters at 10 a pop will probably make them way more money and probably for less effort too

Great minds think alike.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Considering that Tabuu is dead, I don't see him making any kind of return.

If they wanted to bring Tabuu back they could make up any reason they want for him to be back, characters being apparently dead have never stopped creators from bringing back characters before when they wanted to (and who knows if Tabuu is actually supposed to be dead, he could have just been "defeated" within in the SSE canon for all we know).

 

[Pyra]

Tabuu is no Giga Bowser replacement though, since the two are fought differently; the former has an HP meter, much like with Master Hand and Crazy Hand, while the latter operated like a fully playable fighter, but could not be used without hacking.

Wait, jokes aside, I don't get why this disqualifies Tabuu from being a secret boss in Adventure mode.

Are you asking for a parallel to Giga Bowser?
A beefed up "revived" version of a character?

 

[Megadoomer]

Smash Wii U Did do that. You get to Watch TRAILERS.
Honestly. I think the Trailer cutscenes are a nice alternative to the Cutscenes for SSE. I enjoy them, and all of them look so nice.

It would be nice if they added the DLC character trailers as those characters were released; it felt odd going to the trailers section for Smash Wii U and not being able to watch half a dozen of the character trailers.

 

[MainJPW]

Was it ever proved that "Prai_Mai" of the Forbidden Seven was an actual character? If not, then wouldn't it be the "Forbidden Six?"

----

Pra_Mai was one of seven unused incomplete character data files:

https://tcrf.net/Super_Smash_Bros._Brawl#Removed_Characters

So that means that, yes, it’s an actual character.

 

[Dracyoshi]

I think that the best way to do single player with the least development time would be to mix a few platforming levels that reuse assets from existing stages in with glorified CPU battles in unique arenas.

The key is to spend as little time as possible on regular stages and instead give each fight its own flavor that makes it unique from a regular CPU battle. By making every fight take place on a unique layout (even if it reuses textures, models etc) it'll make the stages feel new and not like regular CPU battles on a regular stage. Additionally, players will have to quickly learn and adapt to unique stage layouts. That's one problem that Melee's adventure mode had: A lot of fights were just CPU battles on normal stages that you could replicate yourself.

For example, they could send you through a Temple-themed platformer that reuses assets from the Temple stage and then make you fight a powered up Ganondorf wearing a few permanent items like the Super Mushroom inside a chamber with many spike hazards. It'd reuse a lot of assets, but still feel new because it contains unique platforming challenges and forces you to approach the fights differently. Throw in a few minigames between areas like a Duck Hunt minigame and Target Blast and you've got a pretty decent formula.

Is it as good as SSE? No, but you can't do that without putting in thousands of hours of development time. Instead, this would essentially be Adventure Mode+.

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

The ones he didn't make...

Tabuu is no Giga Bowser replacement though, since the two are fought differently; the former has an HP meter, much like with Master Hand and Crazy Hand, while the latter operated like a fully playable fighter, but could not be used without hacking.

(oops my bad. I'm just gonna pretend he did for the sake of the joke)