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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Cutie Gwen

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Honestly I don't get the overconfidence K.Rool's fans are having. Like, you guys DO realize this very thing happened with the DLC and went absolutely ape**** at Bayonetta and Corrin right? The only reason I see this is because "Well Ridley got in" but Ridley's got more than being a popular request in 4
 

osby

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It doesn't matter if the average Nintendo noob doesn't know. One of the best parts of Smash when I was a kid was discovering characters that I didn't know for the first time in the game.
To be honest, currently game is filled with that kind of characters: Captain Falcon, Lucas, Young Link, Little Mac, Sheik etc.
I don't know if people are aware of this but roster is actually filled with fanservice to the old fans, due to the nature of the game.
 
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TMNTSSB4

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Honestly I don't get the overconfidence K.Rool's fans are having. Like, you guys DO realize this very thing happened with the DLC and went absolutely ape**** at Bayonetta and Corrin right? The only reason I see this is because "Well Ridley got in" but Ridley's got more than being a popular request in 4
Ridely got in because Smash didn’t have enough hunks
 
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D

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Honestly I don't get the overconfidence K.Rool's fans are having. Like, you guys DO realize this very thing happened with the DLC and went absolutely ape**** at Bayonetta and Corrin right? The only reason I see this is because "Well Ridley got in" but Ridley's got more than being a popular request in 4
I'm just assuming Sakurai will add newcomers from the ballot and that Sakurai made him a Mii costume because he wanted to save him for later.
 

Cutie Gwen

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I'm just assuming Sakurai will add newcomers from the ballot and that Sakurai made him a Mii costume because he wanted to save him for later.
I get that. But you're not what I'm talking about then, there's fans here who are convinced he's 100% in the game because "Ballot! Ridley!" I'm not against the idea but it's best not to count your chickens before they hatch
 

Jetsurge

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Honestly I don't get the overconfidence K.Rool's fans are having. Like, you guys DO realize this very thing happened with the DLC and went absolutely ape**** at Bayonetta and Corrin right? The only reason I see this is because "Well Ridley got in" but Ridley's got more than being a popular request in 4
They did bring Kyrstal back as an assist and she hasn't been in a Star Fox since like 2006 and Zero rebooted the series kind of removing her from it. Sort of a similar situation to K. Rool.
 

Cutie Gwen

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They did bring Kyrstal back as an assist and she hasn't been in a Star Fox since like 2006 and Zero rebooted the series kind of removing her from it. Sort of a similar situation to K. Rool.
So K.Rool's going to be in as a playable character because of what happened to Krystal? Can you explain why K.Rool couldn't just have the same fate?
 
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I get that. But you're not what I'm talking about then, there's fans here who are convinced he's 100% in the game because "Ballot! Ridley!" I'm not against the idea but it's best not to count your chickens before they hatch
I see.
Well then, this might not end well. Now I just hope we don't get another Waluigi situation.
 

Ignoritus

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I feel like one thing people really aren't considering when discussing the viability of newcomers is the fact that we really have hit the bottom of the barrel in terms of newcomers. I know everyone has their favorite pick, and some of them have good shots yeah, but take a moment when considering a newcomer's viability and compare them not to the current cast of all-star picks but to their competitors. Even some of the strongest contenders have a fair bit holding them back at this point- Bandana Waddle Dee may be a significant character but he is still just a Waddle Dee variant, has poor recognizability, and came from post-Sakurai Kirby games which Sakurai tends to ignore. Decidueye would admittedly be a great fit but legitimately does not have anything going for him beyond "he's cool!" and "they MUST have a gen 7 rep!". And those are some of the more likely picks.

A newcomer doesn't need to beat out Mario, they just need to beat out all of the other characters in the Newcomer Discussion forum. Combined with the ballot results allowing Sakurai to justify a lot of picks I don't think he otherwise could have, I think the lack of many significant icons left to add creates an interesting opportunity for some unexpected picks.
 

Cutie Gwen

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I feel like one thing people really aren't considering when discussing the viability of newcomers is the fact that we really have hit the bottom of the barrel in terms of newcomers. I know everyone has their favorite pick, and some of them have good shots yeah, but take a moment when considering a newcomer's viability and compare them not to the current cast of all-star picks but to their competitors. Even some of the strongest contenders have a fair bit holding them back at this point- Bandana Waddle Dee may be a significant character but he is still just a Waddle Dee variant, has poor recognizability, and came from post-Sakurai Kirby games which Sakurai tends to ignore. Decidueye would admittedly be a great fit but legitimately does not have anything going for him beyond "he's cool!" and "they MUST have a gen 7 rep!". And those are some of the more likely picks.

A newcomer doesn't need to beat out Mario, they just need to beat out all of the other characters in the Newcomer Discussion forum. Combined with the ballot results allowing Sakurai to justify a lot of picks I don't think he otherwise could have, I think the lack of many significant icons left to add creates an interesting opportunity for some unexpected picks.
Actually Japan loves Waddle Dees, not Bandana specifically but the whole species. I say this judging by the amount of promotional material and merchandise. Like with the Kirby Cafe from a while ago and that recent train thingy
 

Jetsurge

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So K.Rool's going to be in as a playable character because of what happened to Krystal? Can you explain why K.Rool couldn't just have the same fate?
- K. Rool is a lot more heavily requested than Krystal
- K. Rool is the main villain of his series while Krystal is a side character
- Mii costume added to Smash 4 because of his demand. I didn't see a Krystal one.
- Project plan was made close to his Mii costume. K. Rool's was on their minds
- DK needs more characters while Star Fox has enough for what it is
 
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RileyXY1

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- K. Rool is a lot more heavily requested than Krystal
- K. Rool is the main villain of his series while Krystal is a side character
- Mii costume added to Smash 4 because of his demand. I didn't see a Krystal one.
- Project plan was made close to his Mii costume. K. Rool's was on their minds
- DK needs more characters while Star Fox has enough for what it is
Most of what you said is heavily opinionated.
 

KMDP

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I feel like one thing people really aren't considering when discussing the viability of newcomers is the fact that we really have hit the bottom of the barrel in terms of newcomers. I know everyone has their favorite pick, and some of them have good shots yeah, but take a moment when considering a newcomer's viability and compare them not to the current cast of all-star picks but to their competitors. Even some of the strongest contenders have a fair bit holding them back at this point- Bandana Waddle Dee may be a significant character but he is still just a Waddle Dee variant, has poor recognizability, and came from post-Sakurai Kirby games which Sakurai tends to ignore. Decidueye would admittedly be a great fit but legitimately does not have anything going for him beyond "he's cool!" and "they MUST have a gen 7 rep!". And those are some of the more likely picks.

A newcomer doesn't need to beat out Mario, they just need to beat out all of the other characters in the Newcomer Discussion forum. Combined with the ballot results allowing Sakurai to justify a lot of picks I don't think he otherwise could have, I think the lack of many significant icons left to add creates an interesting opportunity for some unexpected picks.
To reiterate your point about Newcomer competition, on the Isaac support thread I rattled off about 20 newcomers with "unique and fun moveset potential" (ultimately Sakurai's biggest criteria for who gets in) that I could think of (some 1st party, some 3rd party). Those were definitely bottom of the barrel (well, not the third parties). People shouldn't just expect their character just because they want them.

Curb your enthusiasm, so to speak. (doo doo doo~...)
 
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D

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- DK needs more characters while Star Fox has enough for what it is
Sakurai doesn't really care about the amount of representatives a series has, he just picks and chooses what thinks will work well.
 

RileyXY1

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Sakurai doesn't really care about the amount of representatives a series has, he just picks and chooses what thinks will work well.
Yeah. If Sakurai thinks that DK only needs two reps then that's fine with me.
 

Cutie Gwen

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- K. Rool is a lot more heavily requested than Krystal
- K. Rool is the main villain of his series while Krystal is a side character
- Mii costume added to Smash 4 because of his demand. I didn't see a Krystal one.
- Project plan was made close to his Mii costume. K. Rool's was on their minds
- DK needs more characters while Star Fox has enough for what it is
Source? And no, easily manipulated fanpolls in echo chambers don't count
He's also been MIA for a while and Donkey Kong is usually promoted as part of Mario. Kyrstal was a side character who's popularity made her part of the main crew, she got nothing but a reference in Zero as it's another 64 retelling
I'll give you that one as I do believe the K.Rool costume was a nod to his popularity
That doesn't really mean much, as anyone who was on the ballot can be argued "To have been on their minds". That's just not an argument in K.Rool's favour
Sakurai has not cared about "Muh reps". The only time we know for a fact he said anything about MUH REPS™ was being on edge about Corrin being another Fire Emblem character, but he decided to go with Corrin either way
 

Guybrush20X6

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So K.Rool's going to be in as a playable character because of what happened to Krystal? Can you explain why K.Rool couldn't just have the same fate?
Well I'd take a King K. Rool assist trophy personally. The Mii costume was nice but I'd like the croc to actually show up in person... in crocodile... whatever.
 

Omega Tyrant

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She could use her hair instead of her tails
I already covered why the hair can not be used if she were to be an Echo, anatomically they're not close at all and the animation would be jacked up if they tried to get them to match, while hitboxes and hurtboxes would inevitably get changed, but it's a moot point now anyway when Diddy's jab no longer uses his tail, and his only other tail attack is a ledge getup attack that remains to be seen

Ya know, I'm already dreading the July drought.

Back in Brawl and Smash4 days, it was managable because every night had a chance of being something new that we had never seen before, and we were always on edge as to what we'd see next.

Now? We're pretty much set for the next month since Julys almost never get Directs, so everything's gonna be rehashed.

:sadsheep:

It could be worse; in Brawl there was about a six month wait after the first much smaller unveiling to see anything else, which was then just that Fox is in the game, And after Smash 4's first, again much smaller unveiling, there was about a month until we got anything new (Olimar's return), while for months most POTDs would be **** like Luigi's nose.
 
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Imadethistoseealeak

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Also using Mii costumes as a form of evidence is kind of a mute point due to what happened with Takamaru...

I know King K. Rool and Takamaru aren't on the same level, but you can't just point to someone getting a Mii costumes as evidence of anything, for any newcomer. (Also I always thought the Mii costumes thing was kinda bull because characters like Dunban and Black Knight got them too...)
 

RileyXY1

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Also using Mii costumes as a form of evidence is kind of a mute point due to what happened with Takamaru...

I know King K. Rool and Takamaru aren't on the same level, but you can't just point to someone getting a Mii costumes as evidence of anything, for any newcomer. (Also I always thought the Mii costumes thing was kinda bull because characters like Dunban and Black Knight got them too...)
You're right. Characters who recieved Mii costumes in SSB4 don't have higher chances of being playable.
 

Jetsurge

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Also using Mii costumes as a form of evidence is kind of a mute point due to what happened with Takamaru...

I know King K. Rool and Takamaru aren't on the same level, but you can't just point to someone getting a Mii costumes as evidence of anything, for any newcomer. (Also I always thought the Mii costumes thing was kinda bull because characters like Dunban and Black Knight got them too...)
Takamaru's Mii costume was taken from his assist trophy model, K. Rool's was brand new
 

Imadethistoseealeak

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Takamaru's Mii costume was taken from his assist trophy model, K. Rool's was brand new
So was Black Knight.
Black Knight for Smash Ultimate.

(Sorry for the sass, but that's why I specifically mentioned Black Knight. Also my point is sure the Mii costumes can be a gauge of popularity, but did we need that to know King K. Rool, Ashley, Inkling, Geno and Isabelle were popular requests? Mii costumes do not mean anything for a character's chances)
 

KMDP

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Also using Mii costumes as a form of evidence is kind of a mute point
Not that I disagree with you or anything (I don't), but you mean "moot" point.

Now, I've had a new thought. I just said that unique and fun movesets are Sakurai's top priority with characters, right.
Bayonetta won the ballot, right? (In a way that is unclear due to Sakurai's wording)

Sakurai's only human, he can't know all the ins and outs of each and every character. It's possible (nay, likely) that the reason there was a comment box on the ballot was not just so that people could state how much they like the character, but also make a case for their moveset potential.

The "winners" of the ballot other than Bayonetta could be made up not of the most votes (necessarily), but of whoever made the best cases for movesets.
So was Black Knight.
Black Knight for Smash Ultimate.

(Sorry for the sass, but that's why I specifically mentioned Black Knight. Also my point is sure the Mii costumes can be a gauge of popularity, but did we need that to know King K. Rool, Ashley, Inkling, Geno and Isabelle were popular requests? Mii costumes do not mean anything for a character's chances)
Black Knight as an Ike echo would be pretty dope, though.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Takamaru's Mii costume was taken from his assist trophy model, K. Rool's was brand new
Oh boy Black Knight and Heihachi confirmed!
In all seriousness this is just moving the goalpost after being called out for not using arguments that help K.Rool specifically. If you want to make a stronger case, point out how it specifically helps K.Rool and can't be used for a larger group of characters
So was Black Knight.
Black Knight for Smash Ultimate.

(Sorry for the sass, but that's why I specifically mentioned Black Knight. Also my point is sure the Mii costumes can be a gauge of popularity, but did we need that to know King K. Rool, Ashley, Inkling, Geno and Isabelle were popular requests? Mii costumes do not mean anything for a character's chances)
Oh I'd say Geno's popularity being a factor was 'needed' to be said as his support seemingly dropped off of the face of the Earth entirely after Brawl
 

AlphaSSB

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- DK needs more characters while Star Fox has enough for what it is
First off, why are we comparing Star Fox to Donkey Kong? Krystal being an Assist Trophy has no impact on King K. Rool, or any other Donkey Kong newcomer for that matter.

Even so, why does one need more characters than the other? Wouldn't both series benefit to gain newcomers? Krystal and Slippy both have their merits, and they would both make for unique additions to the roster. To count them out because Star Fox has three characters while Donkey Kong has two is blasphemy.

Second, Sakurai has shown that the number of characters a series has only matters when there's too many. Sakurai expressed concerns with adding Corrin, as he felt that there was already too many Fire Emblem characters with Roy, but the development staff convinced him to go through with it.
 
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I don't think there's a strong argument for either of K. Rool's possible fates. It's best to just give him the benefit of the doubt.
 
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Imadethistoseealeak

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Moot point. I'll remember that XD.

Speaking of Mii costumes and Geno I just watched Source Gamings Rating of Geno and they mentioned something interesting. Echo fighters based off the Mii fighters.

Apparently Sakurai said his idea for Geno's Moveset would he similar to the Mii Gunner and so it's possible he could just be an echo. I never even thought of that and personally I wouldn't mind because I don't really care for Geno, but Mii Gunner was my favorite class and I don't really like playing Miis so it would give me a character for that Moveset.

What do you all think? Could there be other Mii echoes? I think the brawler and swordfighter are too generic to really base an echo off of.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Again, I think people are antsy for news and are therefore trying to find ways to confirm their favorites ahead of time.

A character getting a Mii Costume doesn’t suddenly make them more likely. If that’s the case, then Dunban, Chrom, Flying Man, Proto Man, Viridi, and Lloyd Irving should also be considered frontrunners.

A critical flaw of the Smash fan base is that they splice evidence in ways they, as in individual fans, see fit. The evidence is fitted to support their favorite, even if it would support another character as well.

This is where I see the “Rex and Pyra would never be a Greninja situation because it’s not the same thing”, or “Ashley is more likely because she hasn’t been seen just yet and had a Mii Costume”. It seems to me that the only reason Rex and Pyra can’t be a Greninja situation is because particular people don’t like Rex and Pyra because “muh sexualization”, and people are just ignoring the fact that there are still 20 something remaining Assist Trophies we haven’t seen and assuming it “increases a characters chances” when that’s not necessarily the case.

With the AT’s, there’s just as much of a chance they got cut. We were literally shown footage from a demo. The purpose of a demo is to show some, but not all, of a given product. For all we know, Sakurai felt we needed something fresh and replaced Shadow with Knuckles. Or we have both Shadow and Knuckles as AT’s.

Support the characters you want and talk about how cool they will be. I’m not saying we shouldn’t do that. But one thing I see happening over and over again is this expectation that “X CHARACTER IS GOING TO PLAYABLE” and then when X character is, indeed, not playable, fans get mad about it when the expectation was entirely fabricated by the fans themselves.
 

True Blue Warrior

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We know Sakurai gets a look at the games beforehand and Zero Suit Samus's concept art from Samus Returns simply cannot be shrugged off as a coincidence imo. Though Dixie isn't the second most important character of the franchise she's in, that's Diddy
Eh, I don't see the specific similarities. ZSS in Ultimate pretty much looks the same as ZSS in Smash 4 (which of course was a design based off Other M) with the biggest difference being the reduced bust size and the more muscular legs (which are definitely more thinner than in SM ZSS's concept art). The biggest difference between the concept art and Ultimate ZSS is that the former has more heavy dark blue highlights.

.It seems to me that the only reason Rex and Pyra can’t be a Greninja situation is because particular people don’t like Rex and Pyra because
Except for the fact Sakurai wouldn't have had to give them the Greninja treatment since Elma exists and was recent in December 2015, when the roster for Ultimate was conceptualised. You're also ignoring the fact that Sakurai explicitly stated that Pokemon was an exception and that Robin was confirmed to have been less likely had his game released 6 months later than when it did. You can make any argument against a character look illegitimate when you deliberately twist and misinterpret them.
 
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Murlough

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Moot point. I'll remember that XD.

Speaking of Mii costumes and Geno I just watched Source Gamings Rating of Geno and they mentioned something interesting. Echo fighters based off the Mii fighters.

Apparently Sakurai said his idea for Geno's Moveset would he similar to the Mii Gunner and so it's possible he could just be an echo. I never even thought of that and personally I wouldn't mind because I don't really care for Geno, but Mii Gunner was my favorite class and I don't really like playing Miis so it would give me a character for that Moveset.

What do you all think? Could there be other Mii echoes? I think the brawler and swordfighter are too generic to really base an echo off of.
That actually sounds pretty cool. Overall I don't really like the Miis but Gunner and Brawler have both been pretty fun to troll my friends with. Hopefully, they would do enough to differentiate Geno from Gunner somehow.
 

KMDP

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Moot point. I'll remember that XD.
"Imadethistoseealeak with remember that."

Speaking of Mii costumes and Geno I just watched Source Gamings Rating of Geno and they mentioned something interesting. Echo fighters based off the Mii fighters.

Apparently Sakurai said his idea for Geno's Moveset would he similar to the Mii Gunner and so it's possible he could just be an echo. I never even thought of that and personally I wouldn't mind because I don't really care for Geno, but Mii Gunner was my favorite class and I don't really like playing Miis so it would give me a character for that Moveset.
There could be characters representing specific builds of Mii Fighter, I could see that.

EDIT: Actually, that could be a workaround for Mii Fighters not being able to go online. GENIUS!
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Moot point. I'll remember that XD.

Speaking of Mii costumes and Geno I just watched Source Gamings Rating of Geno and they mentioned something interesting. Echo fighters based off the Mii fighters.

Apparently Sakurai said his idea for Geno's Moveset would he similar to the Mii Gunner and so it's possible he could just be an echo. I never even thought of that and personally I wouldn't mind because I don't really care for Geno, but Mii Gunner was my favorite class and I don't really like playing Miis so it would give me a character for that Moveset.

What do you all think? Could there be other Mii echoes? I think the brawler and swordfighter are too generic to really base an echo off of.
It's just ridiculously redundant, for all we know Mii Costumes could return, not to mention the only cloney character that wasn't from their own franchise is Ganondorf. I don't see Geno happening either way but if feels like a waste of time.
I don't think there's a strong argument for either of K. Rool's possible fates. I'll just give him the benefit of the doubt.
All I expected is Spring Man tbh and now I don't know what to expect other than Simon
 

Guybrush20X6

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Also using Mii costumes as a form of evidence is kind of a mute point due to what happened with Takamaru...

I know King K. Rool and Takamaru aren't on the same level, but you can't just point to someone getting a Mii costumes as evidence of anything, for any newcomer. (Also I always thought the Mii costumes thing was kinda bull because characters like Dunban and Black Knight got them too...)
Moot point, but I get what you're saying.

Mii costumes are not hard evidence of inclusion but they are evidence of interest. After all they had to market them to people who wnated to play as said characters without taking it as a personal insult.

So Ashley, Isabelle, Chrom and K. Rool looks good in their chances but nothing's concrete. Nintendo's not intentionally hinted at or promised anything. Still, fun to wonder.
 

92MilesPrower

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Today is June 23rd. If you're a fanboy or fangirl of Sonic just like I am, you should know very well what today is. On that note, here's a question for a hypothetical situation: If Shadow were playable, what would be a better Final Smash for him: Super Shadow, or Chaos Blast? Chaos Control is out of the question since it seems like every Final Smash will be damaging, from what we've seen.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Eh, I don't see the specific similarities. ZSS in Ultimate pretty much looks the same as ZSS in Smash 4 (which of course was a design based off Other M) with the biggest difference being the reduced bust size and the more muscular legs (which are definitely more thinner than in SM ZSS's concept art). The biggest difference between the concept art and Ultimate ZSS is that the former has more heavy dark blue highlights.
The Samus Returns concept art is the only time Samus was shown with muscle AFAIK. Alongside the shorter heel being shared in the designs and Samus' arms also having some muscle too, I just can't see it as Sakurai looking ahead and liking what he saw
 
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