Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Capybara Gaming]

So, not to poke the hornet's nest, but...

Has "He who will not be named" posted any reaction anywhere to Daisy's inclusion and her status as an echo fighter? You know the fella I'm talking about.

I'm genuinely curious what his stance on this is, haha.

Yeah. He's rejoiced on his twitter. Nothing else I've seen *shrugs*

 

[Jetsurge]

Even if you guys don't consider Mewtwo a villain (I do) Mimikyu is probably getting in and he wants to straight up murder Pikachu.

 

[Idon]

Mewtwo's not evil, but he IS the ultimate random encounter challenge, and hardest pokemon to catch in whatever game he appears in. Which isn't a whole lot considering, but still.

Or he would be if Pokemon didn't allow you to bring 50 max restores and 100 Ultra balls.

Plus, if you didn't know Pokemon all that well, it'd be pretty safe to assume the pale alien that has dark psychic energy and has an evil laugh and whose final smash is mindbreaking everyone in front of him is probably not as kid-friendly as the electric mouse.

 

[Blargg888]

Found this on the King K. Rool thread

.@Sora_Sakurai Somebody is missing here. 🤔 pic.twitter.com/CTAb6xJhqs

— Kremling Kampaigner (@KRoolKountry) June 18, 2018

Bowser Jr., Dedede, and Mewtwo are all questionable here.
Bowser Jr. doesn't make any sense, Mewtwo has been an antagonist before, but whether it still can be considered such is questionable at best, and Dedede straight up just isn't a villain.

 

[Shroob]

Even if you guys don't consider Mewtwo a villain (I do) Mimikyu is probably getting in and he wants to straight up murder Pikachu.

Eh, that's only anime Mimikyu.

Game Mimikyu wants love, so it makes itself after Pikachu.

The problem is that Mimikyu is actually an eldritch abomination ala Cthulhu wearing a rag, so if you look at what's under the rag, you WILL die.

 

[Jetsurge]

Bowser Jr., Dedede, and Mewtwo are all questionable here.
Bowser Jr. doesn't make any sense, Mewtwo has been an antagonist before, but whether it still can be considered such is questionable at best, and Dedede straight up just isn't a villain.

Questioned if Mewtwo or Dedede can still be villains is like questioning if Darth Vader is still a villain after he's been redeemed.

 

[The Original Robot boy]

Mewtwo was never evil. The only confirmed evil Pokemon I can remember is Meowth in the anime, and it's debatable whether his game counterpart in Yellow counts. Mind you, the teams of HeartGold/SoulSilver are more based upon Yellow then Red/Blue, so who knows if Yellow is meant to be partially canon or not. Then again, Red always has a Pikachu and at least 1 regular RBY Starter, so...

Though didn't mewtwo destroy the lab he was in? or is that just from the movie? I mean when he found out he was created by humans and stuff

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Villain and Antagonist aren't the same thing either anyway. You can have a Villain Protagonist in a story. They're still evil, but they're the protagonist because it focuses on their part of the story or you play as them.

While Mewtwo is not a villain, he's not a protagonist either. He's pretty much just a Neutral Antagonist.

The only confirmed game villainous Pokemon at this point are from spin-offs, like Mystery Dungeon.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I'm dead serious when I say if Daisy has her Hi I'm Daisy taunt I will play her and spam that online. I will main both her and Inkling for the double Hi I'm Daisy and Woomy combo.

 

[Shroob]

Though didn't mewtwo destroy the lab he was in? or is that just from the movie?

It's implied in game, though considering the Pokemon Mansion was said lab, and it's still in one-piece, the worst Mewtwo would have done is set fire to it, not destroy it.

 

[Lyndis_]

Questioned if Mewtwo or Dedede can still be villains is like questioning if Darth Vader is still a villain after he's been redeemed.

I'm gonna have to go out on a limb here and say that's not really a great comparison.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Though didn't mewtwo destroy the lab he was in? or is that just from the movie?

Movie. But it was also experimented on and it was mad at humanity. That's why he's a villain proper in the first movie, but he turns good later on. Well, more neutral. In the games, he has no alliance towards good or evil whatsoever.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

The original 8 and their antagonists...View attachment 148882 Feels like something is missing.

Here is the original picture/post with the context I gave.

I didn't use Jr, I referred to them as antagonists, and I was showcasing that each of the original 8 series in Smash have a playable antagonist from said series except for DK. They took my picture, replaced Bowser for Bowser Jr. and didn't give much context. I didn't intend to present them as evil villains.

 

[Shroob]

The idea of playable Mimikyu really makes me wish that we still had the skeletons on electrocution ala 64.

Mimikyu may be a ghost, but I'd love to see what happens on the off-chance Sakurai were feeling cheeky and gave Mimikyu a skeleton under that rag... I mean, something's gotta be be holding the head part up.

 

[Jetsurge]

I'm gonna have to go out on a limb here and say that's not really a great comparison.

Here's a better one. Loki.

 

[The Original Robot boy]

Movie. But it was also experimented on and it was mad at humanity. That's why he's a villain proper in the first movie, but he turns good later on. Well, more neutral. In the games, he has no alliance towards good or evil whatsoever.

Ahhh I see so its like he's just basically wild animal

Questioned if Mewtwo or Dedede can still be villains is like questioning if Darth Vader is still a villain after he's been redeemed.

I wouldn't compare dedede like that i say hes more like knuckles from the sonic the hedgehog games as for mewtwo well i believe he's just a wild animal

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You know what, if people can say Ridley is the main antagonist of Metroid, then I'm more than willing to say that Kamek is the main antagonist of Yoshi

I mean, being the second most reoccuring character in the franchise, being the one who kickstarts the franchise by slaughtering all but one little girl in Colony K2-L, the constant grudge matches, being the leader of the villainous group, having one of the most iconic tracks of the franchise as it's theme and **** makes him the main antagonist. If you want to say it's cause he wasn't a final boss, Samus Returns exists

 

[Jetsurge]

The idea of playable Mimikyu really makes me wish that we still had the skeletons on electrocution ala 64.

Mimikyu may be a ghost, but I'd love to see what happens on the off-chance Sakurai were feeling cheeky and gave Mimikyu a skeleton under that rag... I mean, something's gotta be be holding the head part up.

Closest we've come to seeing it

 

[Zinith]

You're only giving more credence for Kamek's inclusion, and I don't want him. I don't think he'd be an interesting fighter

 

[Blargg888]

But, the Dark type in Japanese is called the EVIL type.

I think that the "evil" more refers to the Pokemon using dirty or shady tactics such as sneaking through shadows and throat chopping rather than actually being evil.

Reminder that Greninja is a dark type, yet in the anime it was literally portrayed as a hero.

Also, it's been stated multiple times in the Pokemon series that no Pokemon is truly evil. Of course, this claim is debatable given what we know about the Pokemon series, but it rings mostly true for both the anime and the games.

 

[Slavic]

Could Giratina be considered evil, probably the most of any Pokemon? It was Literally banished by God for its actions, so that sounds pretty evil.

I'm not caught up on the anime, though, so who knows

 

[Shroob]

Omega RubyAlpha Sapphire
"Mewtwo is a Pokémon that was created by genetic manipulation. However, even though the scientific power of humans created this Pokémon's body, they failed to endow Mewtwo with a compassionate heart."


X It was created by a scientist after years of horrific gene-splicing and DNA-engineering experiments.Y A Pokémon created by recombining Mew's genes. It's said to have the most savage heart among Pokémon.

Stadium 2 Because its battle abilities were raised to the ultimate level, it thinks only of defeating its foes.


Mewtwo is definitely not a nice guy. but he's not an antagonist.

 

[Jetsurge]

You're only giving more credence for Kamek's inclusion, and I don't want him. I don't think he'd be an interesting fighter

Kamek is just Bowser's minion. Baby Bowser is the main villain.

 

[The Original Robot boy]

You're only giving more credence for Kamek's inclusion, and I don't want him. I don't think he'd be an interesting fighter

Maybe as a Assist Trophy?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You're only giving more credence for Kamek's inclusion, and I don't want him. I don't think he'd be an interesting fighter

But. Kamek's not comparable to Ridley. Kamek only stands out among other Magikoopas because of the English team deciding to make him feel more special

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Bowser - Constant villain and antagonist (with occasional sports/karting breaks)
Bowser Jr. - See above but in mini form
Ganondorf - Shades of a sympathetic backstory, but a pure villain
Mewtwo - Dark psychic born out of experimentation, constantly hinted to enjoy hurting other Pokémon. Cackles.
Ridley - Parents-murdering arch-nemesis
Dedede - Started as a villain, still plays that role often, mind controlled or not.
Wolf - Prominent antagonist and dark mirror

These all check enough of the boxes for me to count them.

 

[Shroob]

Could Giratina be considered evil, probably the most of any Pokemon? It was Literally banished by God for its actions, so that sounds pretty evil.

I'm not caught up on the anime, though, so who knows

Giratina is a super misunderstood Pokemon.


People love to think of it as the devil of Pokemon, and there are plenty of similarities, but the truth is that Giratina is 100% Anti-matter.

The reason that Giratina was banished was because, don't really want a giant dragon of anti-matter in your world made out of matter.

 

[Zinith]

But. Kamek's not comparable to Ridley. Kamek only stands out among other Magikoopas because of the English team deciding to make him feel more special

Pacack already did some digging and found out what the confusion was about Kamek. It turns out that yes, Kamek is meant to be a standalone character even in the Japan.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Fun fact: The closest thing we had to a generic "almost identical to Bowser" child form besides Baby Bowser was Koopa Kid in Mario Party. Bowser Jr. didn't come out till a later game. Interesting coincidence. Then again, maybe the idea inspired Bowser Jr. Who knows.

 

[Shroob]

Now if we're talking about potentially evil Pokemon.

Banette.

You can't throw out toys in the Pokemon world out of fear that they'll turn into Banettes and come back for revenge for throwing them away.


Also, Driftloon kidnaps kids and takes them to hell.

 

[The Original Robot boy]

Fun fact: The closest thing we had to a generic "almost identical to Bowser" child form besides Baby Bowser was Koopa Kid in Mario Party. Bowser Jr. didn't come out till a later game. Interesting coincidence. Then again, maybe the idea inspired Bowser Jr. Who knows.

I forgot about that one, there's also the fact that none of the Koopalings are his children either the only one is Bowser jr

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Might be a late response, but here's my responses:
Mario: Waluigi
Donkey Kong: King K. Rool
The Legend of Zelda: Impa
Kirby: Bandanna Waddle Dee
Pokémon: Decidueye
Metroid: Dark Samus or Sylux
Yoshi: Kamek
Star Fox: Krystal
F-Zero: Samurai Goroh
Mother/EarthBound: Porky
Fire Emblem: Hector
Sonic: Tails
Kid Icarus: Viridi
Pikmin: Louie
Animal Crossing: Isabelle
Metal Gear: Raiden
Wario: Ashley
Xenoblade: Rex and Pyra or Elma
Mega Man: Zero
Street Fighter: Chun-Li or Guile
Final Fantasy: Sephiroth or Tifa Lockhart
Bayonetta: Father Balder
Splatoon: Octolings/Agent 8

Excluded series: Ice Climber, Pac-Man, Punch-Out!!, Gyromite, Game & Watch, Duck Hunt

I really like this list. I wanna do one with only minor changes.

Mario: Captain Toad! (Waluigi is also high on my list, but if I can only choose one Mario rep, it's this guy.)
Donkey Kong: King K. Rool (wouldn't be sad to see Dixie instead, though.)
The Legend of Zelda: Impa (No one else will suffice.)
Kirby: Bandanna Waddle Dee (My top expected newcomer that I actually really want.)
Pokémon: Decidueye
Metroid: Dark Samus (New Prime game, so Dark Samus is more relevant again.)
Yoshi: None, actually. (Sorry, Kamek.)
Star Fox: Krystal
F-Zero: Black Shadow (instead of Goroh)
Mother/EarthBound: Porky
Fire Emblem: Celica (Hector or Edelgard are also acceptable, just not another normal Swordsman.)
Sonic: Tails
Kid Icarus: Viridi (Medusa or Hades are also good, I think Medusa actually has the best shot, being one of the few female villains AND the original villain of the series AND the potential for being a Palu Echo Fighter)
Pikmin: None, really (Louie or the other Pikmin leads don't change anything gameplay-wise. They'd be great skins, though!)
Animal Crossing: Isabelle (As a Villager Echo)
Metal Gear: Raiden
Wario: Ashley
Xenoblade: Rex and Pyra
Mega Man: Zero
Street Fighter: Chun-Li
Final Fantasy: Sephiroth
Bayonetta: Jeanne (instead of Father Balder. And as a Bayo Echo, obviously)
Splatoon: Octolings/Agent 8

Excluded series: Ice Climber, Pac-Man, Punch-Out!!, Wii Fit, Gyromite, Game & Watch, Duck Hunt, and Yoshi.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I forgot about that one, there's also the fact that none of the Koopalings are his children either the only one is Bowser jr

Well, Mario Party 3 is a spin-off anyway.

Also, makes me wonder if the Koopa Kids were a mistranslation or something. At the very least, they're his children in the non-canon cartoon. That's a very specific thing.

Now the real question is who is Jr.'s mother. Peach jokes aside, it could be interesting if they ever explore that angle.

 

[The Original Robot boy]

Well, Mario Party 3 is a spin-off anyway.

Also, makes me wonder if the Koopa Kids were a mistranslation or something. At the very least, they're his children in the non-canon cartoon. That's a very specific thing.

Now the real question is who is Jr.'s mother. Peach jokes aside, it could be interesting if they ever explore that angle.

Remember Miyamoto did said it was him Lol

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Remember Miyamoto did said it was him Lol

Guess he felt like he needed to show his feminine side~

 

[NintenRob]

Yeah, I consider Kamek the main antagonist of the Yoshi series and the driving force behind most games. Even if Bowser is normally the final boss. Bowser Jr should not however be considered at all.

And I would consider King Dedede the main antagonist of Kirby. There's a reason he's used as the final challenge in Kirby Fighters Deluxe, Kirby's Blowout Blast and Battle Royale. Even Team Kirby Clash Deluxe had King D-Mind. A fusion of Dedede and Dark Mind.

 

[Zinith]

And yes, I do have a Yoshi rep that I want that isn't Kamek...

 

[RonNewcomb]

QUESTION / IMAGINE

We're at EVO, and Smash Bros Ultimate has a new trailer to be introduced.
In this Trailer, in homage to the fighting games, the five characters below are revealed.

1 - What would be your reaction?
2 - What would be the reaction of the internet?


View attachment 148741

I'm fgc and like none of those.
Soul Caliber Sophitia because we need more chicks with swords, and Samurai Shodown Nakoruru because her hawk.

Or Ken.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Questioned if Mewtwo or Dedede can still be villains is like questioning if Darth Vader is still a villain after he's been redeemed.

The thing about Mewtwo and Dedede is that they've moved past being villains while Vader died while just getting over it.

Dedede has been in more games as a hero as a villain.

Mewtwo straight up isn't most of the time.

It's not comparable at all.

Saying they're antagonists is better.

AND YES YOU PEOPLE ANTAGONIST=/=VILLAIN

 

[Blargg888]

Questioned if Mewtwo or Dedede can still be villains is like questioning if Darth Vader is still a villain after he's been redeemed.

...
Is he?

I've never seen any of the Star Wars movies, so your analogy is lost on me.

Bowser - Constant villain and antagonist (with occasional sports/karting breaks)
Dedede - Started as a villain, still plays that role often, mind controlled or not.

But when though? When is the "or not"?
6-7 of King Dedede's fights were as a result of mind control/possession
2 were as a result of a misunderstanding from Kirby
He wasn't even an enemy in RtD
The ones in Canvas Curse and Robobot weren't the real Dedede
He was just the rival in Avalanche

So he's really only had like, 3 villainous appearances:
In the first game.
In Dream Course.
and in Battle Royale, which, of the three, is the only one that's recent.

And even then, the things he's done in his few antagonist roles compare neither to the villains in Smash, nor to the villains in his own series.