Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Diddy Kong]

I do feel people are underestimating Snake's return.

He has the raw potential to surpass Mewtwo in popularity.

That kind of blows my mind but its true.

Doubt it. Mewtwo was already a hugely popar request before Melee. That's why he got in.

Nobody with a sane mind would request Snake similary.

Ice Climber popularity I can imagine. Just not Mewtwo.

 

[Bowserlick]

A Fatality has to be instant death. A beacon of light (just like when a character goes off screen) flashes where the victim once stood if it connects.

This could be a Final Smash or a special which instant kills anyone above 113%.

 

[Deleted member]

I do feel people are underestimating Snake's return.

He has the raw potential to surpass Mewtwo in popularity.

That kind of blows my mind but its true.

Then why wasn't he included instead of Lucas or Roy?

(And before someone brings up the whole "Roy was the token Melee veteran" thing, what this is implying is that Snake would have had Mewtwo's place while Mewtwo would have had Roy's.)

 

[Megadoomer]

Then why wasn't he included instead of Lucas or Roy?

(And before someone brings up the whole "Roy was the token Melee veteran" thing, what this is implying is that Snake would have had Mewtwo's place while Mewtwo would have had Roy's.)

Lucas and Roy are both semi-clones of characters who are already in Smash 4, and Nintendo characters, which would make them both easier to remake and easier to get permission to use.

 

[Bowserlick]

In the original Smash, electric attacks would briefly reveal a character's skeleton. This brief X-ray vision could make a come-back for Scorpion's fatality attack or Final Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

Lucas and Roy are both semi-clones of characters who are already in Smash 4, and Nintendo characters, which would make them both easier to remake and easier to get permission to use.

And then we get Ryu, who is neither Nintendo nor veteran.

 

[Pixlemaster]

And then we get Ryu, who is neither Nintendo nor veteran.

But he did meet the requirements of the ballot, and he's one of the most recognizable fighting character

 

[Deleted member]

But he did meet the requirements of the ballot, and he's one of the most recognizable fighting character

....Ryu was in the works before the ballot was a thing.

Furthermore, that does absolutely nothing to counter my point.

 

[Megadoomer]

And then we get Ryu, who is neither Nintendo nor veteran.

They were already working with Capcom and Sega for the base game, which I think would make it easier in terms of getting another character through DLC. I'm not sure about Square-Enix, but maybe they were easier to work with than Konami?

 

[Deleted member]

They were already working with Capcom and Sega for the base game, which I think would make it easier in terms of getting another character through DLC. I'm not sure about Square-Enix, but maybe they were easier to work with than Konami?

While Street Fighter is a Capcom IP, it's owned by a different branch of Capcom than what owns the Mega Man franchise.
Hence why Ryu's copyright is under "CAPCOM U.S.A., INC." rather than "CAPCOM CO., LTD."

Also, the concept of Konami "being hard to work with" honestly doesn't make any sense to me. That would imply that there was ever any attempt to bring Snake back on Sakurai's/Nintendo's side.
The impression I'm getting is that neither side actually made an effort to communicate on the matter.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Then why wasn't he included instead of Lucas or Roy?

(And before someone brings up the whole "Roy was the token Melee veteran" thing, what this is implying is that Snake would have had Mewtwo's place while Mewtwo would have had Roy's.)

Just to point out he did say he has the potential. He never said he was incredibly popular at the launch of DLC even though I would disagree. One thing to note is that characters start to become more popular after they are cut. Mewtwo and Roy were cut from Brawl and their popularity skyrocketed, especially Mewtwo since he wasn't a clone. Lucas, I honestly think is a matter of circumstances. I really think that Lucas was really close to being added in the base game but it just didn't work out. Add that to his Japanese popularity and the fact that all that **** with Konami and Kojima started right around that time and it's no surprise that Snake's raw popularity was overlooked. Lucas just worked out way better.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Doubt it. Mewtwo was already a hugely popar request before Melee. That's why he got in.

Nobody with a sane mind would request Snake similary.

Ice Climber popularity I can imagine. Just not Mewtwo.

Diddy, you are severely underestimating Snake here.

• Metal Gear is one of the most beloved franchises in gaming.
• Snake was very popular both casually and competitively.
• Snake is a veteran so that already gives him a huge boost in popularity.

Also, Diddy, why with the sane mind comment?

I can easily see Snake surpassing Wolf even.

Then why wasn't he included instead of Lucas or Roy?

(And before someone brings up the whole "Roy was the token Melee veteran" thing, what this is implying is that Snake would have had Mewtwo's place while Mewtwo would have had Roy's.)

its possible that an agreement just couldn't be made for whatever reason.

You misunderstand me Golden. I didn't say anything in terms of likeliness, just popularity.

Also I said potential... So.....

Snake is clearly going to be among the front runners of popularity from here on out.

 

[SmashChu]

I don't think that's a problem especially for re-releasing a previous game. As Nintendo doesn't change anything major in re-releases or VC releases, licensing contracts are probably the same as in the previous release. Second, if anything then it's Nintendo's fault and not Konami's because I can't imagine a company refusing to get a guest appearance in a game as big as Smash is.

But as we don't know what happened and how it exactly works, this is just useless speculation. I'm still very confident about his return in a new game.

On a company denying a guest appearance, it could happen. If Konami doesn't want Snake associated with Nintendo or its characters (because they are too kiddy maybe), then they will certainly do it. There could also be the situation where the company wants more money or they have an agreement with another company to keep a series off a platform. And rights can change. It's not as simple as you make it.

And no, you have to renew the license agreement to do that. Konami is not going to let you release a game with their properties without them having a say. Micheal Patcher discussed this in one of his videos (despite not being able to predict his way out of a paper bag, he knows a good deal about the inner workings of the industry). Long story short, the brand holder would get paid again. If not, the company could file an injunction and get the game recalled. Starts at about 7min

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scXqVfKKNvg

This is why I say Nintendo may move away from licensing as much as they have with Smash 5. That may not be the only reason (Iwata let Sakurai do whatever he wants and Kimishima may reign it in for numerous reasons). I could be wrong on that. I have been in the past, but I say this because people tend to go in the complete opposite direction and say everyone under the sun will be in Smash. There is more going on behind the scenes.

What I will say is hold on to a copy of Super Smash Bros for Wii U. With so many licensed characters in that game and it's lower sales, you'll never see a re-release of that game. Keep it. It will be worth a lot of money in the future.

NonSpecificGuy I covered what you mentioned above, so I guess you can consider this a reply to your post too. Only thing I'll add is that if the licensed was timed, it would have run out by now/ Brawl is almost 10 years old so even if it covered future releases, they'd have to renew.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

On a company denying a guest appearance, it could happen. If Konami doesn't want Snake associated with Nintendo or its characters (because they are too kiddy maybe), then they will certainly do it. There could also be the situation where the company wants more money or they have an agreement with another company to keep a series off a platform. And rights can change. It's not as simple as you make it.

And no, you have to renew the license agreement to do that. Konami is not going to let you release a game with their properties without them having a say. Micheal Patcher discussed this in one of his videos (despite not being able to predict his way out of a paper bag, he knows a good deal about the inner workings of the industry). Long story short, the brand holder would get paid again. If not, the company could file an injunction and get the game recalled. Starts at about 7min

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scXqVfKKNvg

This is why I say Nintendo may move away from licensing as much as they have with Smash 5. That may not be the only reason (Iwata let Sakurai do whatever he wants and Kimishima may reign it in for numerous reasons). I could be wrong on that. I have been in the past, but I say this because people tend to go in the complete opposite direction and say everyone under the sun will be in Smash. There is more going on behind the scenes.

What I will say is hold on to a copy of Super Smash Bros for Wii U. With so many licensed characters in that game and it's lower sales, you'll never see a re-release of that game. Keep it. It will be worth a lot of money in the future.

NonSpecificGuy I covered what you mentioned above, so I guess you can consider this a reply to your post too. Only thing I'll add is that if the licensed was timed, it would have run out by now/ Brawl is almost 10 years old so even if it covered future releases, they'd have to renew.

I'm not going to carry this very much farther but I just want to point out that deals don't always work like that.

Take the Virtua Fighter characters in Dead or Alive 5 and it's additional versions. They have permission to use those characters in each one of their versions and, if the creative director of Team Ninja is to be believed, money has not changed hands. At all.

Now, I don't think that Nintendo got away with not paying for these characters but maybe they did get away with striking a lifelong deal for those games in singularity.

What I'm trying to say is licensing deals always occur but they don't always have to play out exactly like the others. They can be negotiated. This could even be the reason Snake wasn't added. Maybe Konami wasn't comfortable with doing that over again.

 

[Deleted member]

Diddy, you are severely underestimating Snake here.

• Metal Gear is one of the most beloved franchises in gaming.
• Snake was very popular both casually and competitively.
• Snake is a veteran so that already gives him a huge boost in popularity.

Also, Diddy, why with the sane mind comment?

I can easily see Snake surpassing Wolf even.

I think he meant that by the time of Melee.

Remember, until Brawl's reveal, the idea of getting third-party characters was nothing but a mere dream.

 

[Roberto zampari]

When i checked the pool about "if we wanted to have a new ubisoft character for Smash" , i wanted to say...
Are we need some characters from Assassin's creed, Far Cry and No More Heroes for Smash?

Also, i renember correctly, Snake and Sonic originally were planned for Melee, but was cut by time constrains (correct me if i'm wrong).

If Nintendo includes Rayman for Smash, his final smash must be summoning Rabbids.

 

[Schnee117]

Are we need some characters from Assassin's creed, Far Cry and No More Heroes for Smash?

No More Heroes isn't a Ubisoft IP.
Ubisoft just published both games in NA.

Also, i renember correctly, Snake and Sonic originally were planned for Melee, but was cut by time constrains (correct me if i'm wrong).

Neither were planned.
The closest is that Kojima asked Sakurai to add Snake but it was far too late in development to add a new character by that point.
So Snake got added in Brawl instead.

 

[UserKev]

Actually am fine with Mewtwo the way he is. Take notes: after the buffs. I wouldn't change him much.

But a buff Mewtwo done right would be sick..

Scorpion? I definitely don't see his stage. They'd also have to edit his most iconic move, the snake grab to where it just grab their clothes.

I don't know what to see for Bowser, Yoshi and the likes.

 

[Pixlemaster]

I don't see scorpion happening because Sakuria would have to change him a lot to keep the E10 + rating, which would cause Scorpion to lose his gory atibutes he's known for

But i do see a buff to the puff

 

[Bowserlick]

Scorpion is known for his harpoon spear, fatalities, and being an undead ninja.

The undead ninja part just requires him to appear in the game. The spear is a special. And the fatality could either be a Final Smash or another (instant-death) special.

 

[SmashChu]

I'm not going to carry this very much farther but I just want to point out that deals don't always work like that.

Take the Virtua Fighter characters in Dead or Alive 5 and it's additional versions. They have permission to use those characters in each one of their versions and, if the creative director of Team Ninja is to be believed, money has not changed hands. At all.

Now, I don't think that Nintendo got away with not paying for these characters but maybe they did get away with striking a lifelong deal for those games in singularity.

What I'm trying to say is licensing deals always occur but they don't always have to play out exactly like the others. They can be negotiated. This could even be the reason Snake wasn't added. Maybe Konami wasn't comfortable with doing that over again.

Well first, keep in mind Sega's AM2 help with the game and I'm hearing the game was published by Sega in Europe (not 100% on this given some weaker sources).

Regardless, is Nintendo's agreements with these companies merely handshakes and allow Nintendo to use the characters in Smash whenever? Probably not. These are two B grade fighting games. These are the A-list characters of major publishers. I don't think Nintendo will get to use Sonic or Snake just willy nilly. These companies are going to want a payday and they don't want their characters in a game without their say.

You can kind of see this in other areas. The third party characters are never on the front of the box. The CD Nintendo released had no music from Sonic or Megaman. Only PacMan, which is likely due to Namco developing the game. As an aside, what I'm saying likely doesn't apply to Namco if they make the game as they'd have rights as a developer anyway. This is the same situation with DoA 5 (as Sega helped make the game and may have published it in Europe).

Lastly, on Snake, the situation would be more akin to what I'm saying. If Nintendo could use Snake, why was Brawl not released on the Wii U. If Nintendo could use him in the future for the game, there wouldn't be an issue getting the game out.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

But a buff Mewtwo done right would be sick..

Scorpion? I definitely don't see his stage. They'd also have to edit his most iconic move, the snake grab to where it just grab their clothes.

I don't know what to see for Bowser, Yoshi and the likes.

Snake grab?

Buddy, Scorpion doesn't have anything like that.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Snake grab?

Buddy, Scorpion doesn't have anything like that.

It's an odd description of the Spear Attack. Do note that in some adaptions, it's a snake that comes out of his hand(including the first Mortal Kombat movie).

Considering the Hookshot didn't create blood anyway, the spear doesn't need to. They're effectively the same move, albeit one is clearly made of metal. While the other comes out of someone's hand.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Scorpion should be fine if Bayonetta and Snake where. Toned down similary as them, he'd work.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

This is why we aren't in charge of balancing, people.

Nothing but the purple Pikmin equivalent would make Alph bonkers and not in a good way.

At the same time though, we can end up with moves that are just pathetic if we're not able to modify fighter movesets.

For some examples, Mega Gunman, Armored Jet Hammer, Warlock Thrust, and even Spinphony are heavily impractical to use, but for different reasons; Mega Gunman has terrible damage output for its long start-up lag; Armored Jet Hammer deals far less damage and knockback than Jet Hammer, despite of the super armor inclusion, which is a poor trade-off; Warlock Thrust has very poor knockback stats, even when sweetspotted, and has long ending lag, giving it no advantages at all when compared to the rest of Ganondorf's attacks; Spinphony's frame duration is very long, and is just very sad as a whole with its poor damage output.

Even some default special moves are worth mentioning, such as Ganondorf's Dark Dive.

https://mynintendonews.com/2017/08/...chat-miiverse-will-be-ending-on-november-8th/

A first sight of Smash Switch incoming?

I wouldn't exactly count on it just yet.

 

[Bowserlick]

If you want to go the clone route with Alph, he can have Rock Pikmin instead of Purple. They could be dropped instead of thrown like Villager's Bowling Ball.

Alph could be slower and if his Up B is used while holding a Rock Pikmin, he instantly plummets to his doom bringing the winged Good Samaritan Pikmin with him.

 

[Ura]

I would rather see Sub-Zero over Scorpion personally.

Though if Ed has his way then it's obviously going to be Scorpion. Either is fine though I prefer to see Sub-Zero in.

 

[Deleted member]

I would rather see Sub-Zero over Scorpion personally.

Same.
Sub-Zero is the (pun slightly not intended) cooler option.

 

[Ura]

Same.
Sub-Zero is the (pun slightly not intended) cooler option.

Yeah and I also think he would be more easier to incorporate in Smash since his specials are all in all less violent than Scorpion's.

I mean don't get me wrong or anything but freezing someone is much easier to do than literally impale them with a spear the way Scorpion does in MK.

That and Sub-Zero & the IC's being in the same game would be really neat.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah and I also think he would be more easier to incorporate in Smash since his specials are all in all less violent than Scorpion's.

I mean don't get me wrong or anything but freezing someone is much easier to do than literally impale them with a spear the way Scorpion does in MK.

That and Sub-Zero & the IC's being in the same game would be really neat.

I don't look at it from that angle, as we have the likes of Toon Link grabbing people by stabbing them with a Hookshot as well as Corrin literally impaling opponents to the ground with Dragon Fang Lunge.

The angle I do look at it is that Sub-Zero has a lot more interesting mechanics to work with than Scorpion does.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

If I had my choice of a Mortal Kombat character I'd choose Human Smoke.

He's such a badass.

 

[Deleted member]

If I had my choice of a Mortal Kombat character I'd choose Human Smoke.
He's such a badass.

Huh, when did Kakashi join Mortal Kombat?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Huh, when did Kakashi join Mortal Kombat?

2011

 

[MMXZero]

I'm thinking Travis Touchdown is the next third party character in Smash. Suda51 has been bugging Sakurai about it for a while and he has a cult following with Nintendo fans like Bayonetta. Plus he is owned by Marvelous, Inc and his games were localized by Ubisoft.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I'm thinking Travis Touchdown is the next third party character in Smash. Suda51 has been bugging Sakurai about it for a while and he has a cult following with Nintendo fans like Bayonetta. Plus he is owned by Marvelous, Inc and his games were localized by Ubisoft.

He's possible. I wouldn't say necessarily likely, but possible. Suda51 is very passionate about that character as you say so I think he's more likely than what most people give him credit for. Even still, I don't think he's as likely as say, Rayman in terms of 3rd parties though.

 

[N3ON]

I think if NMH3 had released in place of Bayonetta 2, it's entirely possible Travis could've been the ballot character. They both scratch the same niche and have a strong cult following. And timing plays a large role in these kind of things. Plus iirc Suda51 has pestered Sakurai about including Travis in the past.

Personally I would rather see Travis over Bayo in Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

Reminder Travis is not a Ubisoft character, but a Grasshopper one.

Ubisoft's role was to publish the first 2 NMH games to the US.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy, you are severely underestimating Snake here.

• Metal Gear is one of the most beloved franchises in gaming.
• Snake was very popular both casually and competitively.
• Snake is a veteran so that already gives him a huge boost in popularity.

Also, Diddy, why with the sane mind comment?

I can easily see Snake surpassing Wolf even.

Well I don't really underestimate him. I just don't think he's that beloved with the Smash fanbase. I haven't really heard too much backlash from the lack of Snake as of yet. Meanwhile with Mewtwo...? That was a completely different story. Snake is in general a far more reasonable cut than Mewtwo ever was.

The sane mind comment might've been a bit too much however, but I think it's indeed common logic that Mewtwo's removal was far more impactful than Snake's. And that he was the most missed veteran in general. Mewtwo was the reason DLC started. Mewtwo was more popular than the most requested newcomer of Smash 4; Mega Man.

Snake really doesn't hold up to that. But I do agree he's probably more popular than Wolf. Wolf however, is also more reasonable to re-add than Snake. So I take Wolf's vocal support is much higher. Snake might be the most popular veteran left, but that doesn't say all too much.

Then again, there's not really a lot of characters left "worthy" to include. But I'll take a jab at it anyway. I've just compared the popularity of Mewtwo being similar, or even surpassing Mega Man's. Now let's look at which character we could compare Snake with.. I'll take a shot and just say King K.Rool.

I really don't think Snake is as popular at this point than King K.Rool. In the overall world of gaming... SURE he is. But not with the Smash audience. K.Rool was just behind Mewtwo and Mega Man in popularity, and Ridley was also there. But Ridley is simply unlikely to ever appear playable. So there's that. But you can compare Snake to Ridley sameway and get the same result; people would prefer the Nintendo king reptile over the third party human soldier named after a reptile.

So that's why I said I don't think Snake will be the new Mewtwo.

I want him back too, don't get me wrong. Grew quite attachted to Snake in Brawl, and he was very fun to fight against. But I won't delude myself.

 

[WB97]

Have been gone for a while. If there's anything of note I have missed please let me know so i can get my thoughts on anything I have missed in please

On the topic of Snake I...honestly don't know how to feel about his chances of returning. I am unsure how much demand there is for him to return, I am unsure if Nintendo are really wanting him to return that desperately, I am unsure if Konami even want him back all that much...I am honestly beginning to think Bomberman or Simon Belmont are more likely than him given Konami directly named those two franchises as being really popular amongst Nintendo's player base and would therefore maybe feel getting them in the roster is a better idea at this point.

Who knows for sure though at this point. If he did return I'd welcome him back to the roster with open arms.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I think the thing with Snake is that he's basically held down by "but he's konami" whereas Wolf/Mewtwo where much easier and thus likelier.
If Konami wasn't the zombie it is I think Snake support would be more apparent