Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

i doubt it based on the fact alph and the koopalings still exist and ARENT echo fighters.

I did say "initially", but I think alternate characters and Echo Fighters that share slots with their originals can easily co-exist.

 

[KingBroly]

There will be far less newcomers introduced in this game though.

and with the focus this game is getting on fan service I don't think you can compare what happened in the last game to what will happen in this game.

Sakurai has stated he thinks this will be the last Smash Bros game, with that in mind I'm finding it hard to imagine his goal will be anything but trying to please the fans.

He said that with Melee, Brawl and Wii U/3DS as well. This will probably do it, though. I'm sure he'd like a lighter workload.

 

[Roberk]

Interestingly enough, Robin's success may come from the fact that he's not a self-insert the way you describe. He has plenty of development and personality. Enough to make him the main character of the story.

Guess I didn't see what Zinith said, I wasn't talking about Robin at all. I took Osby's joke literally and just tried to explain the difference between a silent protagonist and an avatar who doesn't speak.

 

[RouffWestie]

So, this game is called; "Super Smash Bros Ultimate"

Now, what would define Ultimate for you?
I'll give some rules for this game.

You are to add up to "10" Nintendo characters/first n' seond party characters.
And you can have up to "5" 3rd parties.

Now, it's to personalize what would for "you" make the Smash from where it currently is, to the "Ultimate".
Which characters are left, who are realizable still that is.

I'll write mine, but in the mean time, I'd love to hear from your perspectives.
Try to reason why they'd be a good fit to make it your ultimate.

Out of the Nintendo characters, I'd want to see playable status awarded to:
Dry Bowser - for being a recurring form of Bowser in the mainline Mario series since NSMB, even managing to make it into the spin-offs often;
Dixie Kong - for being the thrid of the main Kong heroes, starring in her own game, and making a comeback in Tropical Freeze;
King K. Rool - for being the main antagonist of the original DKC trilogy and other DK games of the past;
Dark Matter - for being a recurring antagonist in Kirby games and never seeming to die;
Slippy Toad - for being a longtime member of the Starfox team who had finally getting his time in the spotlight in Star Fox Guard on the WiiU;
Mimikyu - for being a direct reference to the popularity of the series mascot;
and Lip - for being the one Nintendo character with the bleakest future and thus the most need to be revived;

And for third party characters, I'd want to see:
Tails - because he's Sonic's sidekick
Simon Belmont - because Castlevania has remained an iconic franchise from NES up to the modern age, even influencing the creation of an entire subgenre of gaming.
Tetris - because it's the single most recognizable game in the puzzle genre and had a huge impact on gaming in general
and Banjo-Kazooie - because they represent a bygone era when Rare still worked with Nintendo.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

He said that with Melee, Brawl and Wii U/3DS as well. This will probably do it, though. I'm sure he'd like a lighter workload.

That's true but I agree this time he probably means it.

At the very least this is the last chance to have every character ever playable in Smash Bros. So for that reason I could see Sakurai trying to make the biggest impact by adding in some fan favourites alongside the existing roster.

Though on the other hand, it's Sakurai. So who can really say what he's thinking?

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Reposting this from the roster thread, the bottom row is all the character I think have a chance to get in as echo fighters. However I think only 3 more (possibly 4) will actually get in.

Of each, Dry Bowser, Hilda and Yarn Yoshi could end up as costumes, Chrom may end up as part of Robin's FS again and for Octoling, I'm not sure they'd do an Echo of a new character. (again ...)

 

[papagenos]

I did say "initially", but I think alternate characters and Echo Fighters that share slots with their originals can easily co-exist.

if they can distinguish them somehow from alt costume characters, totally matters how the CSS is setup so we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Metal Shop X]

I don't know if it have been posted before but.

Man, Sheik new final smash is basically Strider's Ragnarok, I love it.

Also, she finally use the weapon in her back! 'can't wait to see Captain Falcon pulling a gun in his final smash too.

 

[Cosmic77]

That's true but I agree this time he probably means it.

At the very least this is the last chance to have every character ever playable in Smash Bros. So for that reason I could see Sakurai trying to make the biggest impact by adding in some fan favourites alongside the existing roster.

Though on the other hand, it's Sakurai. So who can really say what he's thinking?

I don't even bother listening to Sakurai when he says something like this. If there was ever an excuse for him to stop working on Smash, Smash 4 would've been the time to do it. He had an injured hand and was absolutely exhausted, yet look what happened. The time between Smash 4 and Smash Ultimate is the shortest timespan we've ever had between Smash games.

I fully expect him to come back for the next Nintendo console and direct Smash once again.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

I hear people talking about a Shadow being an echo fighter.
The only Shadow I'd like to see is black, and very speedy in a vehicle.
He also sort of looks like batman, rather than a hedgehog.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Sakurai has stated he thinks this will be the last Smash Bros game.

While there have been some inconsistency in this, I don't believe he's actually said this. In fact right before he showed off Ridley at Treehouse he mentioned the next iteration of Smash probably not carrying over all characters, implying there will be another in the future. Also money.

Anyway instead of discussing which Xenoblade character, does anyone else think it's very possible we won't get any Xenoblade character on the base roster with the different direction?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Anyway instead of discussing which Xenoblade character, does anyone else think it's very possible we won't get any Xenoblade character on the base roster with the different direction?

I do.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Anyway instead of discussing which Xenoblade character, does anyone else think it's very possible we won't get any Xenoblade character on the base roster with the different direction?

Yeah, and the same for Fire Emblem and possibly Pokemon.

At least in the base game. DLC may bring some total newcomers.

 

[Cosmic77]

While there have been some inconsistency in this, I don't believe he's actually said this. In fact right before he showed off Ridley at Treehouse he mentioned the next iteration of Smash probably not carrying over all characters, implying there will be another in the future. Also money.

Anyway instead of discussing which Xenoblade character, does anyone else think it's very possible we won't get any Xenoblade character on the base roster with the different direction?

I don't see why we wouldn't. Even if every veteran is returning, I still expect Sakurai to try and reach out to casuals and add some of the newer and more relevant Nintendo characters from franchises like Pokemon and Xenoblade. I highly doubt his only goal is to please the vocal minority and add fanservice characters.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I don't see why we wouldn't. Even if every veteran is returning, I still expect Sakurai to try and reach out to casuals and add some of the newer and more relevant Nintendo characters from franchises like Pokemon and Xenoblade. I highly doubt his only goal is to please the vocal majority and add fanservice characters.

You're right, he'll likely also try to please the silent majority of the fanbase. Good thing he has the ballot to help him know which characters people really want.

 

[One winged Devil]

Roll would make for a good Echo Fighter.

 

[SuperMasterHand]

I see a lot of people saying ''XXX can't be in the game cause Sakurai decided the roster at the beggining back in 2016" and such
But it's just assumption, yes he did that for every other Smashs, but we don't know for this one.

Maybe this time he decided he wanted everyone back in the first place (he literaly said that in the direct) and then decided the newcomer list AFTER in order to give a chance to the latest switch games for exemple. Who knows ?

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Roll would make for a good Echo Fighter.

Yeah, I made a support thread for her. ^_^

 

[Jexulus]

You're right, he'll likely also try to please the silent majority of the fanbase. Good thing he has the ballot to help him know which characters people really want.

Dr. Luigi confirmed next Echo Fighter, y'all!

 

[Skyblade12]

In regards to echo fighters, I know people think that were named in the direct because they're going to be this huge thing and most of the newcomers will be echo fighters....but that wasn't my first thought when I saw it revealed.

I got the impression that perhaps Sakurai doesn't like the term "clone". If you think about it it's a very derogatory and dismissive way to talk about a character and in general is a term that has a negative meaning.

It could have been an attempt to change the term by giving them an official name.

That said I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least one more echo fighter (I mean the last game had two of them) but I'm also finding it hard to think of potential echo fighters that would have significant fan demand behind them, aside from maybe Dixie Kong. (and even then I'm not sure how well that would work)

I think it’s because Sakurai feels the need to declone the clones. Every game, characters who started out as Echoes get more and more distinct.

I think by qualifying them as Echoes, he can say “that’s it, they’re copies, I don’t have to mess with them any more, people won’t expect them to be their own fighters”.

 

[Roberk]

I think the hype with Echo Fighters is people transferring their hype from traditional newcomers to clones. Sakurai made it very clear in the Direct that there wouldn't be that many newcomers, but at the same time characters that take the most minimal amount of effort are being given their own distinction: "Echo Fighters". People know that their favorite newcomers getting into Ultimate will have to jump through even more hoops and see them making it in as low-effort a possibility. Combine this with characters suspected to be similar to existing fighters not being present in their usual color palettes, some Final Smashes containing these similar characters not being shown, assist trophies of these similar characters not being shown, and you have a recipe for speculators desperately trying to reason that their character will be playable in any way possible.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I don't see why we wouldn't. Even if every veteran is returning, I still expect Sakurai to try and reach out to casuals and add some of the newer and more relevant Nintendo characters from franchises like Pokemon and Xenoblade. I highly doubt his only goal is to please the vocal minority and add fanservice characters.

I do not think casual when I think the Xenoblade series...if anything it's a series that turns away casual newcomers (X was super complicated to a non-JRPG fan like me).

As for Pokemon...I still think people are sleeping on it's popularity and success. They did so much with Sun and Moon that I don't see Sakurai saying nah to some great designs (Decideueye, Mimikyu....even Lycanroc) just because he brought back Pichu... Yeah I'll be shocked if we don't get a Pokemon newcomer. Well shocked and disappointed

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

I still think people are reading too much into Echo Fighters. True clones got a new name and people are suddenly acting like this is a game changer for Dark Samus and Dixie.

Has their chances of getting in Smash really changed? People were considering them to be possible clones before E3, so why are things different now? It's not like they suddenly got more relevant.

I agree to extent that people are focusing on it too much, but I think the new name isn't why, or at least it's only part of the reason.

Consider that both Dark Pit and Lucina have been confirmed to be returning. Both characters that were speculated to be cut. Not only were they not cut but they are just as cloney as ever.

Before this reveal there was a nontrivial chance there would be no true clones in this game ala Brawl. Now that we are positive that isn't the case the chances of potential clone characters have changed. Whether it is a dramatic change or not is debatable, but it has changed.

It's not surprising that people who wanted characters who could be clones are clinging to that.

 

[osby]

I agree to extent that people are focusing on it too much, but I think the new name isn't why, or at least it's only part of the reason.

Consider that both Dark Pit and Lucina have been confirmed to be returning. Both characters that were speculated to be cut. Not only were they not cut but they are just as cloney as ever.

Before this reveal there was a nontrivial chance there would be no true clones in this game ala Brawl. Now that we are positive that isn't the case the chances of potential clone characters have changed. Whether it is a dramatic change or not is debatable, but it has changed.

It's not surprising that people who wanted characters who could be clones are clinging to that.

Or maybe people finally got how much work is required for original fighters and even coming up with new moves for semi clones.

By the way, we only have three true clones, or echo fighters, right? All the others are now semi clones.

 

[Pakky]

Super keen on these new stock icons. So much so, I made about nine of them myself for my new prediction roster.

Spoiler

I'm really feeling these new, simple and clean visual HUD styles Nintendo has been using for a lot of their games recently.

I care for Elma but this is clean as f**k good work!

I'm so proud of Smash, everyone can see everything now, man, never underestimate the power of a clean UI!

 

[Deleted member]

Wait... Maybe Decidueye could be an Echo of Pit?
.....
I want to punch myself

 

[Cosmic77]

By the way, we only have three true clones, or echo fighters, right? All the others are now semi clones.

That's correct. Dr. Mario is a semi now (Not sure what changes he got, if any), and Link's new changes make him stand out more from YL and TL.

Wait... Maybe Decidueye could be an Echo of Pit?
.....
I want to punch myself

Eww, gross. No one even plays with the Pits anyway.

 

[Mogu]

That's correct. Dr. Mario is a semi now (Not sure what changes he got, if any), and Link's new changes make him stand out more from YL and TL.



Eww, gross. No one even plays with the Pits anyway.

Well, for Dr. Mario, he got a new dair (0:05) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0qVpaEtEF4

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Wait... Maybe Decidueye could be an Echo of Pit?
.....
I want to punch myself

Well we currently don't have a framework for how echoes work, but I think it would be the dumbest thing for a character to have 2 echoes.

And we would be missing out on so much of what makes Decideueye interesting

(Actual on second thought they really couldn't share animations as Decideueye doesn't use blades at all so I don't think we need to worry)

 

[Deleted member]

Well we currently don't have a framework for how echoes work, but I think it would be the dumbest thing for a character to have 2 echoes.

And we would be missing out on so much of what makes Decideueye interesting

(Actual on second thought they really couldn't share animations as Decideueye doesn't use blades at all so I don't think we need to worry)

It was more of a joke about how desperate I am to get Decidueye as a playable character, but I agree.

 

[verysleepywolf]

When Sakurai says unlock methods will be streamlined, what exactly does that mean? Streamlined like in Brawl where you kind of just unlocked everybody by doing random things? I would greatly prefer the Melee style where unlocking is an intense hike through the different modes. I never cared for the alternative route of accumulating vs matches personally.

 

[Pakky]

Prediction for Greninja's final smash

 

[RileyXY1]

When Sakurai says unlock methods will be streamlined, what exactly does that mean? Streamlined like in Brawl where you kind of just unlocked everybody by doing random things? I would greatly prefer the Melee style where unlocking is an intense hike through the different modes. I never cared for the alternative route of accumulating vs matches personally.

For me, unlocking characters in Melee was a chore. I don't want unlocking characters to be like that.

 

[Cosmic77]

Prediction for Greninja's final smash

That's funny. I thought his new Final Smash would be him automatically losing to Charizard, a fire type.

(Anime logic is stupid.)

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

When Sakurai says unlock methods will be streamlined, what exactly does that mean? Streamlined like in Brawl where you kind of just unlocked everybody by doing random things? I would greatly prefer the Melee style where unlocking is an intense hike through the different modes. I never cared for the alternative route of accumulating vs matches personally.

Well with 60+ characters to unlock, I hope it is streamlined. I'm thinking some kind of event mode or something where every event unlocks a new character. I just hope we don't have to dig around, after all that wouldn't be streamlined.

 

[osby]

When Sakurai says unlock methods will be streamlined, what exactly does that mean? Streamlined like in Brawl where you kind of just unlocked everybody by doing random things? I would greatly prefer the Melee style where unlocking is an intense hike through the different modes. I never cared for the alternative route of accumulating vs matches personally.

I don't think there can be predetermined unlocking methods for 60 fighters, so... I say lower your expectations.

 

[Pakky]

That's funny. I thought his new Final Smash would be him automatically losing to Charizard, a fire type.

(Anime logic is stupid.)

To be fair Mega Charizard X isn't weak to water anymore due to being dragon type it does normal damage.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

So, this game is called; "Super Smash Bros Ultimate"

Now, what would define Ultimate for you?
I'll give some rules for this game.

You are to add up to "10" Nintendo characters/first n' seond party characters.
And you can have up to "5" 3rd parties.

Now, it's to personalize what would for "you" make the Smash from where it currently is, to the "Ultimate".
Which characters are left, who are realizable still that is.

I'll write mine, but in the mean time, I'd love to hear from your perspectives.
Try to reason why they'd be a good fit to make it your ultimate.

Well the only thing I can say that would make this game "Ultimate" is Isaac being playable. (I wouldn't ask for anything more after that)

but that wouldn't be much of a response so I'm going to include a list of what I think would make this game "Ultimate" for the Smash Community in general. (I mean I can't please everyone with this but that should be obvious)

I've also decided not to include newer characters on this Nintendo character list, focusing on characters that have been wanted for a long time. (or at least as long as since the start of Smash Bros Wii U speculation)

Nintendo Characters

King K. Rool (Been wanted for a long time by a large and dedicated fanbase)
Isaac (Has a devoted fanbase, honestly I think the fans deserve more than an assist trophy)
Dixie Kong (Similar to K. Rool she's another Nintendo character whos fans have been around the block a few times)
Bandana Dee (I've seen polls where this guy performs very well so he clearly has a notable fanbase backing him)
Ashley (She's very popular in Japan, so it makes sense to include her for her Japanese fans)
Captain Toad (I don't really like the idea of Captain Toad in Smash....BUT he does have a fanbase and I see him pop up fairly regularly so I think he deserves inclusion)

I wanted to add Rex & Pyra, but I think that was more from my own desire than anything else. (and I had already decided not to include newer characters with more recent fanbases) I think if we're focusing on what would make this Smash Ultimate for the core Smash community, newer characters could easily wait for the next Smash.

After these six characters I don't really feel there are any other Nintendo characters with significant fanbases behind them that have been around for a long time.

Third Party

Banjo & Kazooie (Has a good fanbase behind him and I would imagine that Banjo & Kazooie getting in would be a highlight for many people who played the original games on the N64, especially considering Banjo & Kazooie would almost certainly have made it into Smash if Rare had never been sold)
Geno (I don't really care for him, but people clearly love him so I think he's a part of what would make the game "Ultimate")
Simon Belmont (I heard he performed well on the ballot so that's largely why he's here.....plus he seems to be the character people mention most whenever people talk about older third party characters on the same level as Sonic or Megaman)

So 9 characters in total, on top of the 3 we have now for 12 newcomers in total. I guess it's not a huge number but it's likely still a bit overblown for what we'll actually be getting this time around.

To recap:

Spoiler

King K. Rool
Isaac
Dixie Kong
Bandana Dee
Ashley
Captain Toad
Banjo & Kazooie
Geno
Simon Belmont

I know there are others that didn't get on this list, but I do find it hard to imagine there would be many significantly sized fanbases still looking for their character to get into Smash after this. At least fanbases that have been around for a long time. (aside from characters like Waluigi, Krystal or Takamaru who I can't choose based on the rules)

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

I initially thought they were just going to be clones that share slots with the characters they're based on, but have a few differences.
Tbh I would've liked that much better :/

THats interesting, although I've never understood the clone hate. I mean, it's literally just extra content in the game, and if it really bothers you that badly, just... don't play as them?

 

[Pakky]

NANI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!