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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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But...IT IS a rebranding of clones dude-
Well, not exactly. It's a type of clone.

The issue is people don't get what Echo Fighters are. If anything, they basically first existed with the Polygons, as they're literally the same thing, but have moves removed from their command pool. The first time we can play a 'em is in Smash 4 proper.

Nonetheless, there is nothing wrong with any kind of clone. The key factor is they play differently, and thus, always have their own slot(transformation characters can share a slot, but the rest can't due to how VS records work).

I don't know why people act like they're an issue. There is an argument for how tedious it is to go through every mode with them, but to be frank? The issue is the modes are not very exciting and haven't had much for mini-games either. That's the bigger issue.
 

Hinata

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Neat that he kills her regardless apparently.

But it'd have been cool if it were other ships for characters that had them. Like the Odyssey for Mario.
Enzo's plane from Bayonetta 2 for Bayo.
 

Wyoming

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On the other side of the spectrum...

We could have a bunch of Echo fighters potentially in the likes of Dixie, Shadow, Black Shadow, Dark Samus, etc.

But seriously, my dreams for Smash now are for Waluigi, King K. Rool, Bandana Dee, and Chrom to be newcomers..
Black Shadow does not have the same build as Falcon at all. He's much bulkier and taller.

Blood Falcon is the only possible echo of Falcon because, like Shadow and Dark Pit, he is a genetically engineered/dark magic clone of him.
 
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Roberk

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But...IT IS a rebranding of clones dude-
Clones have gameplay differences like Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young Link, etc. This is taking the near-alts of 4 and potential alts/newcomers like Daisy and making them their own thing. Lucina got lucky by not having tipper making her have distinct gameplay, but Dark Pit is rated the same as Pit on tier lists and with what Trinen was saying I expect Daisy to mostly just be cosmetic differences from Peach. Pre Smash 4 clones had different stats and attribute like gravity, knockback, speed, etc.

Echos are just Lesser Clones. Whether that's good or bad is what will be decided when we see what's done with them, but Echoes are different from traditional clones.
 

DarkFalcon

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Now that stage hazards are toggles and we have Battlefields of every stage that means no more of the same Animal Crossing music when watching competitive matches. Best thing ever tbh.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Black Shadow does not have the same build as Falcon at all. He's much bulkier and taller.

Blood Falcon is the only possible echo of Falcon because, like Shadow and Dark Pit, he is a genetically engineered/dark magic clone of him.
And he probably wouldn't work as a Ganondorf Echo due to too many different animations, though that'd just be for the sword moves. So not many, as long as they shared the same hitboxes. He could run slower, but still have same weight. It'd get people want they wanted out of the character, but they'd also finally learn that they weren't going to completely revamp Ganondorf and give his old moveset to Black Shadow. Doing it partially is better than nothing, I guess?
 

Idon

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The issue and confusion is because Smash is the only fighter currently that has clones that are this close to being identical to each other.
So much so, that they have to be differentiated by another name to divide them between clones that have more noticeable differences. The name Sakurai and co. have come up with is "Echo" for those exact type of characters.

Of course, now the general community believes that all clones regardless are echoes and now character discussions have dissolved every character into either completely unique or echo.

The reality is, this game's probably going to feature a mix of uniqueness, clones, and echoes.
 

Sonic Poke

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I think Link changed so much that we can't say Young Link is a full clone anymore. I think it is a semi-clone that feels like a faster classic Link.
And it seems Doc is getting slowly decloned.
 

N3ON

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Clones are a spectrum. On one end you have the direct clone, which we don't have in Smash, but Dark Pit would probably be the closest. Or maybe now Daisy, iunno. On the other you have Wolf, being not really a clone but not original either. Semi-clones such as Lucas and whatever the TL/YL/Doc tier is are somewhere in between.

Echoes are just the clones that reside nearest the direct clone end of things.

That's how I look at it.
 
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Wyoming

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I think Link changed so much that we can't say Young Link is a full clone anymore. I think it is a semi-clone that feels like a faster classic Link.
And it seems Doc is getting slowly decloned.
Actually would Toon Link now be a semi clone of Young Link? The boy came first, after all
 
D

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I think Echo Fighters are fine in Smash Bros.
Honestly who cares? Clones actually encourage more characters.
Like Chrom and Mythra are a higher possibility now.
 

TMNTSSB4

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The best buff in all of Ultimate is palutena's new hair.

That Laffy Taffy thing in 4 was distracting. Now she actually looks amazing.
That and adding Pit screaming about how he can’t read are the greatest buffs in Smash history right now
 

Wyoming

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Why are people less salty about clones since Sakurai gave them a term nobody else on Earth came up with before? That's so weird after defending clones in Smash for a decade across the web and real life.
 

Curious Villager

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Actually would Toon Link now be a semi clone of Young Link? The boy came first, after all
Their both semi clones of Link since he's the parent character they where originally based off, Its kind of like saying Lucina is a clone of Roy, or Doc a semi clone of Luigi.
 
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Opossum

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I figured, as the resident Chrom Guy™, I'd give my input on the idea of an Ike Echo Chrom. Up until now I haven't said much on the matter.

In short, Echo Chrom is a toss up. On the one hand, we already have a lot of Fire Emblem characters, including an Echo (a Fire Emblem echo from Awakening, even!). As well, Sakurai envisioned Chrom as Marth and Ike's middle ground, so shifting him completely to one side of the dichotomy may seem suspect.

On the other hand, Chrom was someone Sakurai originally wanted in, and someone who he knows is popular with the fans. And if you subscribe to the "Mii Costume = Consolation Prize" theory, he may have even done well on the ballot. And he's still pushed pretty often by Intelligent Systems to boot.

As well, it's possible Sakurai may reconsider how he originally saw Chrom due to Heroes. If you weren't aware, in Heroes, Chrom is part of the Mighty Glacier archetype, unlike in Awakening where he was a Lightning Bruiser (to use TVTropes terms). He's even slower than Ike is there. And one of the moves that Ike had that didn't fit Chrom (Up Air) actually got changed, to boot.

The only move of Ike's that REALLY doesn't fit Chrom, in my opinion, is his jab. Chrom would more likely incorporate a shoulder bash than a kick for the second hit, but maybe that's something Sakurai would be willing to overlook. Some of the throw animations are sketchy as well, but I digress.

As far as Specials, Eruption would be replaced by a move called Awakening. This would be based on the rite that gives his game its name, where Chrom was bathed in Naga's holy fire to become worthy of the Exalted Falchion. Chrom is already the type to stab his weapons into the ground, after all, and the only change that'd need to be made is making the flames white to signify that they're Naga's.

Quick Draw could stay as is, but be renamed Luna, as the animation for Luna is basically the same. Maybe Chrom's could be differentiated by being able to go through opponents, like Luna can in Awakening.

Counter can stay because lol Counter.

Aether isn't a big deal either since A) Chrom performs a similar move when fighting Lucina in Arena Ferox, and 2) Chrom naturally learns Aether in Awakening (and Heroes, too). This might be too big of a change, but if not, maybe they can make the descent of Chrom's Aether angled as it is in Awakening. But if that is too much of a change he can be kept the same as Ike's.

Final Smash can be a Pair-Up styled move with Frederick assisting Chrom, since that's incredibly in-character.

But in the end, while I think it's TECHNICALLY POSSIBLE Chrom could get in as an echo, I'm not getting my hopes up. I learned that lesson four years ago and would rather not need to learn it again. But if it did happen? Well, I'd finally have playable Chrom. Of course I'd prefer a unique moveset, as I've made many for Chrom in the past, but Sakurai disagrees so it's not worth complaining about at that point. And being able to play as Chrom, my favorite Nintendo character? It would truly make the game Ultimate for me.
 

DarkFalcon

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Why are people less salty about clones since Sakurai gave them a term nobody else on Earth came up with before? That's so weird after defending clones in Smash for a decade across the web and real life.
Simply put, Echo Fighters sounds really cool. I've never been against clone characters, but it is interesting seeing more positive responses towards their inclusion just based on a name change.
 

Dragoncharystary

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Alright, I'm going to predict we get 10 new stages with 2 DLC this time and the majority of old stages returning with a few exceptions such as Miiverse and Pyrosphere for various reasons.

This is the list I have of the ten new stages I'm predicting including the confirmed ones:
-Great Plateau Tower
-Moray Towers
-New Donk City
-Tetris Stage
-Minecraft Stage
-New Xenoblade Stage (Probably from X)
-Gangplank Galleon
-Dracula's Castle
-Spring Man Stadium
-Ultra Space from Sun and Moon

Then for DLC:
-Rayman Stage
-Dillon's Rolling Western Stage

I kind decided to just buy into the Verg leak to make things easier here but I think this combined with most past stages returning would be a pretty good lineup.
 

Idon

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Why are people less salty about clones since Sakurai gave them a term nobody else on Earth came up with before? That's so weird after defending clones in Smash for a decade across the web and real life.
Placebo.
Never underestimate how easy it is to trick the human mind.
 
D

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That and adding Pit screaming about how he can’t read are the greatest buffs in Smash history right now
Pit can not read and he is an angel?
Palutena is a bad teacher.
But in the end, while I think it's TECHNICALLY POSSIBLE Chrom could get in as an echo, I'm not getting my hopes up. I learned that lesson four years ago and would rather not need to learn it again. But if it did happen? Well, I'd finally have playable Chrom. Of course I'd prefer a unique moveset, as I've made many for Chrom in the past, but Sakurai disagrees so it's not worth complaining about at that point. And being able to play as Chrom, my favorite Nintendo character? It would truly make the game Ultimate for me.
Keep in mind that Sakurai loves surprises. Sakurai said Ridley was too big some time ago and Ridley is in now.
I mean the fact that Daisy got in brings my hope for Chrom and Mythra. I understand Daisy is more popular than the two combined and that Sakurai understands there is a lot of FE characters, but be hopeful. I mean he gave us a Chrom outfit because Sakurai knew he is well wanted.
I think Chrom is not very likely, but no longer practically impossible anymore.

Also good move-set for Chrom.
 

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Clones are a spectrum. On one end you have the direct clone, which we don't have in Smash, but Dark Pit would probably be the closest. Or maybe now Daisy, iunno. On the other you have Wolf, being not really a clone but not original either. Semi-clones such as Lucas and whatever the TL/YL/Doc tier is are somewhere in between.

Echoes are just the clones that reside nearest the direct clone end of things.

That's how I look at it.
Perfect clones that they don't even get their own slots. :4alph::4larry::4roy::4wendy::4iggy::4morton::4lemmy::4ludwig:

Imperfect clones but still close enough to the original characters that they get their own slots but not their own numbers. :4lucina::4darkpit:

Semi-clones that they are similar to the original characters but with enough differences that they get their own slots AND their own numbers. :4luigi::4drmario::pichumelee::4falco::younglinkmelee::4ganondorf::4feroy::4lucas::4tlink::wolf:

Why are people less salty about clones since Sakurai gave them a term nobody else on Earth came up with before? That's so weird after defending clones in Smash for a decade across the web and real life.
Because Sakurai legitimatized last-minute filler clones with the euphemism official term, "Echo Fighters".
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Perfect clones that they don't even get their own slots. :4alph::4larry::4roy::4wendy::4iggy::4morton::4lemmy::4ludwig:

Imperfect clones but still close enough to the original characters that they get their own slots but not their own numbers. :4lucina::4darkpit:

Semi-clones that they are similar to the original characters but with enough differences that they get their own slots AND their own numbers. :4luigi::4drmario::pichumelee::4falco::younglinkmelee::4ganondorf::4feroy::4lucas::4tlink::wolf:
Actually you can argue that the clones and semi-clones are different. Ones like Wolf simply used Fox as a retooling, but still had quite a few unique properties. Also, you forgot Jigglypuff among the semi-clone section.
 

Sonic Poke

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And talking about clones, I think it is about time for Luigi to lose the n-special and u-special to kinda fully differentiate him from Mario.
But we already know it won't happen in this game.
 

Arcadenik

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Actually you can argue that the clones and semi-clones are different. Ones like Wolf simply used Fox as a retooling, but still had quite a few unique properties. Also, you forgot Jigglypuff among the semi-clone section.
I am glad you mentioned Jigglypuff. I honestly was thinking about putting Jigglypuff in that category but I was not in the mood to defend myself from Jigglypuff fans.
 

Idon

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Here's a small issue with Ike-Chrom.
The Chrom-family Falchion.

Never mind the fact that it has been horrendously shortened in order to shove Lucina in Marth's hitbox, the fact that we have two Falchions which should be exactly the same size and weight being two VERY different sizes and VERY different weights would be kinda weird.

Lucina will be on screen dancing with the a tiny knife Falchion like a fencer and Chrom will be on the other side flailing a massive Falchion-shaped club!
 
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Idon

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I am of the personal opinion that Luigi should get a vacuum, somewhere in his moveset. I don't especially care where, but it should be SOMEWHERE.

An Up B to suck air to reach the ledge? a Side B as a command grab? A neutral B as a projectile that brings foes closer? A Down-B that acts as an inverse Mario FLUDD?
Don't matter. Put it in there.
 
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Roberk

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Here's a small issue with Ike-Chrom.
The Chrom-family Falchion.

Never mind the fact that it has been horrendously shortened in order to shove Lucina in Marth's hitbox, the fact that we have two Falchions which should be exactly the same size and weight being two VERY different sizes and VERY different weights would be kinda weird.

Lucina will be on screen dancing with the a tiny knife Falchion like a fencer and Chrom will be on the other side flailing a massive Falchion-shaped club!
The two-handed Awakening Falchion is the original. An oddity from making Lucina a clone shouldn’t hinder Chrom IMO. Lucina never learned Marth’s style, yet she’s a clone of him. Dark Pit despises being likened to Pit, yet he is a clone of him. Clones can take liberties and ignore consistency, it shouldn’t matter that much.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I am glad you mentioned Jigglypuff. I honestly was thinking about putting Jigglypuff in that category but I was not in the mood to defend myself from Jigglypuff fans.
Basically, some are more straight clones than others. While Toon Link is wayyyyyy more different, Young Link was an animated clone like the rest of the Melee 6. These are regular clones. Toon Link can be argued as a regular clone or semi-clone, but ones like Wolf, Jigglypuff, Falcon, and Ness(I forgot about Falcon and Ness) are all retools of a character. Ness, like Luigi, was retooled from Mario. Falcon from Samus(though you can tell he got a little bit from the beta characters, including the build), and Jigglypuff from Kirby. And of course, Wolf from Fox.

I guess a good way to put it is ones like Luigi are blatant, while ones like Wolf are very difficult to tell, but still shares a selection of the same moves. And some aren't retools of anyone, being unique. Of course, even those can share a move or two here and there.
 

MysticKnives

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I think Link changed so much that we can't say Young Link is a full clone anymore. I think it is a semi-clone that feels like a faster classic Link.
And it seems Doc is getting slowly decloned.
Neither Young Link or Toon Link are full clones anymore.
 

MoonlitIllusion

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I am of the personal opinion that Luigi should get a vacuum, somewhere in his moveset. I don't especially care where, but it should be SOMEWHERE.

An Up B to suck air to reach the ledge? a Side B as a command grab? A neutral B as a projectile that brings foes closer? A Down-B that acts as an inverse Mario FLUDD?
Don't matter. Put it in there.
It would make a good down special or grab but I don't see either of them going anywhere, tbh I'd be down to have e. gadd playable if it meant we could have a vaccum moveset, but I guess Luigi's mansion 3 and him in spinoffs would really need to happen first, he's such a cool character honestly they need to use him more
 
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Cereal Bawks

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Does 7 new characters sound like a good number? Sakurai said we shouldn't be expecting a lot, and 7 is about half of what we usually get in a new Smash game.
 

Chandeelure

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Has anyone seen this leak recently?
http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/420618251#p420622354

EDIT: Here's pretty much a summary of the leak for those who don't care.

-We're getting 12 newcomers, 8 unique, 4 echo (including Inkling, Ridley, and Daisy)
-It will contain some highly requested characters, and some characters Sakurai wanted to add in previous smash games
-There'll be 25 new stages, and 100 returning ones
-Every version of Battlefield and Final Destination is available
-The main unlocking method for characters will "feel like an adventure" (The return of Adventure Mode?)
What is even the point of these leaks that say nothing interesting or surprising.

Remember that leak with the pic of Battlefield that said E3 would have some stuff like Bayonetta's guns, Inkling's weapon and all that?
It was true, but nobody cared, because it was not interesting at all lol.

At least say the name of one character or something.
 

TMNTSSB4

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Pit can not read and he is an angel?
Palutena is a bad teacher.
Also a bad friend and mother figure (plus the part where she isn’t so smart herself, more so than Pit of course)...atleast she loves him I guess
I am of the personal opinion that Luigi should get a vacuum, somewhere in his moveset. I don't especially care where, but it should be SOMEWHERE.

An Up B to suck air to reach the ledge? a Side B as a command grab? A neutral B as a projectile that brings foes closer? A Down-B that acts as an inverse Mario FLUDD?
Don't matter. Put it in there.
Final Smash and Grab
And talking about clones, I think it is about time for Luigi to lose the n-special and u-special to kinda fully differentiate him from Mario.
But we already know it won't happen in this game.
That is an evil and heartless idea
 

Tree Gelbman

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9 newcomers left. 2 are for sure echo fighters.

1) Geno - Longtime fan want. Actions seem taken to appease most every long time Mario request save Waluigi and even he still remains as assist trophy which is better than nothing. Daisy is an echo fighter. Toad's increased involvement in Peach and Daisy's moveset seems to have been for a reason. I'm willing to bet it was to appease Toad fans and because Captain Toad is not coming.

2) Shadow the Hedgehog/Tails - One of these will be an echo fighter of Sonic. Shadow's missing assist trophy is odd, if we were to see him he'd be two assist trophies for Sonic. Which indicates a desire to represent how prominent and iconic the multiple characters of the series are. So if he doesn't get the Echo treatment. I'm betting Tails will so fans can achieve the long awaited Sonic vs Mario vs Luigi vs Tails match.

3) Ashley - Much like Ridley is a western fan dream. Ashley is a Japanese fan dream. I see her getting the bump as an answer for giving us Western fans Ridley. She's also one of the more popular assist trophies not seen just yet, which could mean nothing considering Kat & Ana don't seem to be appearing either, but I have a feeling about this little witch as well.

4) Isabelle - Now the face of her franchise and a verified superstar. Assist trophy is missing. She used to pop out frequently as well, so a little odd we've yet to see her. I'm calling either she's an echo fighter as much as it'd peeve me or she'll be one of our unique fighters. I'm calling it unique as I only see at least two more echo fighters happening.

5) King K. Rool - Another big time fan want like Ridley and Geno. One of the longest requested characters in Smash history. Acknowledged with a Mii Fighter costume last time and most likely placed well in the ballot.

6) Dixie Kong - Diddy's echo fighter. Again? I want more for her. But Sakurai plotted her before. He knows she's wanted and this would be an easy and nice way to appease the demand to grow the Donkey Kong franchise reps. You get a unique newcomer in King K Rool and an echo fighter in Dixie Kong.

7) Elma - Rex & Pyra will be DLC I believe. They came a little too late in my opinion and I believe the action figure was meant to be his replica for her skell.

8) Mimikyu - Gives Sakurai the chance to do three "Pikachus". Highly popular Gen 7 fan favorite. Ghost/fairy and a Pokemon type that we really haven't seen in Smash before.

9) One Unique Third Party Icon Newcomer. This could be Belmont, Rayman, etc. But I do think there will be one true third party icon added for base game.

This is what I'm seeing for the rest of the roster. So speaketh I.
 
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Xephilon

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This is the first I'm hearing about this.
https://twitter.com/Nintendo/status/996648239846768641?s=19

https://topics.nintendo.co.jp/c/article/06a7f0f8-575b-11e8-b311-063b7ac45a6d.html

Here it is but again, it doesn't say demo. So I'm not sure if its an event or something going over there or there will be a demo for a few days like Mario Tennis

Edit: Just noticed the date, May 16th. Yeah, probably nothing interesting...

Edit 2: Looked up more on it, it's an event to play it in japan: https://gematsu.com/2018/05/super-s...e-at-various-japanese-events-starting-june-17

Sorry if I gave false hopes x.x
 
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Zerp

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Is it bad that I'm fine with Echoes, purely because there's now a distinction that puts them as visibly less important characters, unlike the regular and semi-clones?
I am glad you mentioned Jigglypuff. I honestly was thinking about putting Jigglypuff in that category but I was not in the mood to defend myself from Jigglypuff fans.
The way you phrased that makes it sound like we're some sort of horrendous plague upon the community lol.
What is even the point of these leaks that say nothing interesting or surprising.

Remember that leak with the pic of Battlefield that said E3 would have some stuff like Bayonetta's guns, Inkling's weapon and all that?
It was true, but nobody cared, because it was not interesting at all lol.

At least say the name of one character or something.
The reason they don't say anything is because if they said the name of even one thing that isn't in the game we'd know it's wrong when that thing is deconfirmed.
 
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