Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[MrReyes96]

“Echo” characters being a thing is a good sign for potential clone characters like octoling and Isabelle
I do hope we get a good amount of new original characters though

 

[ErenJager]

Samus no longer has her Dark Samus color alt, hmmm.

Strong hmm moment.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Palutena has her side b changed, and her down b changed to include reflector.

Other than miis, custom moves are probably dead.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Curious, why aren't characters like dr Mario, Pichu and young link echoes?

Would impa work as Sheik's echo?

Would love to see dark samus and dixie now

They're apparently different enough to not be considered Echos.

screw all yall who thought Dr. Mario should be an alt hahaha

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Palutena has her side b changed, and her down b changed to include reflector.

Other than miis, custom moves are probably dead.

As it should be.

Custom Moves were a neat idea but horribly executed.

 

[Arcadenik]

I wonder if Smash Ultimate will have Board the Platforms AND Break the Targets (64/Melee style) AND Target Smash (like Angry Birds from SSB4)… that would be awesome.

And I really hope it will have Smash Run.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Curious, why aren't characters like dr Mario, Pichu and young link echoes?

Would impa work as Sheik's echo?

Would love to see dark samus and dixie now

Differences in moveset I'm guessing, What separates an echo from a clone is that while clones have actual different moves echoes do not I believe

I don't think Impa would work tbh due to their differences in proportions, specifically Skyward Sword Impa is extremely tall and lanky so they wouldn't really match up

 

[papagenos]

Palutena has her side b changed, and her down b changed to include reflector.

Other than miis, custom moves are probably dead.

since sakurai said hes working on getting miis to work online i think only costumes, mii face, and voice will be what you edit about them.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Nope. But Marth didn't either, and Roy got them. No standard Link had fire arrows, and yet Young Link got them. I'm not sure why you have made these apparent "rules" about what Echo Fighters' conditions would be. Echo Fighters are clones given an official name. And I wasn't even saying I thought Chrom SHOULD be an Echo of Ike, I'm saying if Chrom were included in this manner, I think it would more likely be Ike than Marth.

Young Link has Fire Arrows in Majora's Mask, so it makes sense.

Anyway, people are misunderstanding what Echo Fighters are.

They're clones with very few differences, sometimes bordering on almost none.

Regular clones like Ganondorf and Roy share a same character build and moveset to some degree, but have fairly extreme changes that make them play to a vastly different degree. Roy still played way more different from Marth than Lucina did, even before 4.

Then you have the "barely a clone, but a retool" style. Jigglypuff and Wolf are the two most notable ones. They are retooled via Kirby and Fox, using their base model and many moves to create a mostly unique moveset.

You could think of it as 3 pillars; Barely any changes, a ton of changes, barely the same.

 

[ToddCam]

But echo characters seem to be different from clones though, unlike say dr. mario and pichu, they lack any differences in their movesets and their changes consist of just tweaked variations of the original characters movesets.

I see. That's why I mentioned that you had apparently affixed rules to the Echo Fighter category that I find unwarranted. Dark Pit's forward special is charged with electricity, so elements can at least be added (aside from aesthetics). I think it's too early to say whether or not the criteria for Echo Fighter is a strict as you believe it to be.

 

[Inawordyes]

Do you think a character like Toon Zelda would still be considered an Echo Fighter by Sakurai if their proportions are vastly different, even if literally everything else is exactly the same?

 

[DYED]

Congrats to the Daisy and Ridley fans.

I won't lie, when I saw Waluigi and Midna still relegated as assist trophies my heart shattered a bit, but there's still time and newcomers slot for me to be happy too. :'(
No, but seriously, great great conference and great, great, GREAT game.

At this point, I'd say the most likely character to get added in are the rep for Rhythm Heaven (when Sakurai said that "Everyone is Back", I hope he included the characters that got canned, too) and the one that got many votes in the ballots, such as King K Rool and Shantae.

But now, let's talk about the real stuff. The REAL DEAL.
MY BOY GANONDORF IS AS SLICK AND SICK AS EVER LOOK AT HIM, JUST LOOK AT HIM
THANKS SAKURAI DADDY

Also, his sword REALLY enhances his range, he may be even viable in the next game, just imagine that!
IS IT CHRISTMAS ALREADY?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Young Link has Fire Arrows in Majora's Mask, so it makes sense.

Anyway, people are misunderstanding what Echo Fighters are.

They're clones with very few differences, sometimes bordering on almost none.

Regular clones like Ganondorf and Roy share a same character build and moveset to some degree, but have fairly extreme changes that make them play to a vastly different degree. Roy still played way more different from Marth than Lucina did, even before 4.

Then you have the "barely a clone, but a retool" style. Jigglypuff and Wolf are the two most notable ones. They are retooled via Kirby and Fox, using their base model and many moves to create a mostly unique moveset.

You could think of it as 3 pillars; Barely any changes, a ton of changes, barely the same.

Essentially there's:
Unique character -> Semi-clone -> Clone -> echo fighter -> alternate costume

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Do you think a character like Toon Zelda would still be considered an Echo Fighter by Sakurai if their proportions are vastly different, even if literally everything else is exactly the same?

They need to have nearly the same character model to be one.

If Toon Zelda were to get in, she'd be a regular clone ala Toon Link or Young Link.

Echo Fighters are basically alts with few changes.

Essentially there's:
Unique character -> Semi-clone -> Clone -> echo fighter -> alternate costume

Another good way to put it.

 

[Khao]

They're apparently different enough to not be considered Echos.

screw all yall who thought Dr. Mario should be an alt hahaha

I thought he was better off as an alt, but now that literally everyone is back he doesn't feel out of place anymore, if that makes sense, hahaha.

The only reason I disliked him was because at the end of the day, as a character, he's still literally Mario in another outfit. You can't say this about any other character in the roster. The complaint still applies but welp... This ****'s all about everyone making it back and I think that's ****ing awesome, so screw it.

 

[StrangeMann]

Congrats to the Daisy and Ridley fans.

I won't lie, when I saw Waluigi and Midna still relegated as assist trophies my heart shattered a bit, but there's still time and newcomers slot for me to be happy too. :'(
No, but seriously, great great conference and great, great, GREAT game.

At this point, I'd say the most likely character to get added in are the rep for Rhythm Heaven (when Sakurai said that "Everyone is Back", I hope he included the characters that got canned, too) and the one that got many votes in the ballots, such as King K Rool and Shantae.

But now, let's talk about the real stuff. The REAL DEAL.
MY BOY GANONDORF IS AS SLICK AND SICK AS EVER LOOK AT HIM, JUST LOOK AT HIM
THANKS SAKURAI DADDY

Also, his sword REALLY enhances his range, he may be even viable in the next game, just imagine that!
IS IT CHRISTMAS ALREADY?

You can mash out of ganoncide now
Unplayable

 

[Roberk]

• I'm REALLY hyped for Pokemon Trainer. The only thing that could've made it better is making the alts actual model swaps for the different regions' trainers. I saw some palette swaps representing other incarnations of Pokemon Trainers, but I wanted a bit more for essentially an avatar character.
• All veterans? Ehh, it's really cool, but it has me worried. It immortalizes some characters that I feel should've been passed over. Also, fewer newcomers, sad! Stuff like Snake and Wolf are solid picks to bring back, Pichu and Young Link are more like "seriously?".
• My casual friend who has never owned a Smash game was extremely disappointed that Midna didn't make it. It was the one thing he wanted since he wasn't at all involved in Smash to somewhat know what to expect. He said it ruined the Smash reveal for him when Midna was disconfirmed, I feel pretty bad for him tbh. Ignorance is also a curse when it comes to realistic expectations.
• Path of Radiance Ike and Radiant Dawn Ike? Hell yeah, now that's catering to fans. Also, Greg Chun as Ike's VA. Hnnngggg.
• English Marth with Yuri Lowenthal? YESSS! Also, love Marth's new shampoo, that is some fine hair.
• Roy, Dr. Mario, and everyone not Lucina/Dark Pit are officially confirmed not clones. Interesting.
• Get those Landmasters outta here.
• Ocarina of Time Ganondorf? With Ike's sword Smashes? Hell yeah.
• Interested to see Zelda gameplay in these next few days, disappointed that BOTW wasn't an alt. ALBW Zelda is great too though.
• The gauges shown were pretty neat and seem to be useful, but they are inconsistent. FLUDD should have a gauge. While R.O.B. got a gauge on his model, he should also have one near his portrait for consistency and clarity.
• Love the new effects during 1v1s with the cutscene. Feels like everybody can be Little Mac (in a good way with the satisfaction of the K.O. Punch). It makes the game much more hype.
• I haven't seen anybody catch this, but a lot of the effects of the Final Smashes and Victory Animations look like 3DS FE crits with the flash of the shaking face portrait and Persona 5's background flair. Sakurai really loves those things, so I guess those games really influenced him.
• The main theme is hype. Been listening to it nonstop. Hopefully, the music in this game isn't butchered to 2-minute loops like in Smash 4.
• Pretty satisfied with the new physics and mechanics so far. Higher gravity, directional air dodging, faster and just more offensive in general.

There's probably a ton more to say, but I'll end it here for now.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Congrats to the Daisy and Ridley fans.

I won't lie, when I saw Waluigi and Midna still relegated as assist trophies my heart shattered a bit, but there's still time and newcomers slot for me to be happy too. :'(
No, but seriously, great great conference and great, great, GREAT game.

At this point, I'd say the most likely character to get added in are the rep for Rhythm Heaven (when Sakurai said that "Everyone is Back", I hope he included the characters that got canned, too) and the one that got many votes in the ballots, such as King K Rool and Shantae.

But now, let's talk about the real stuff. The REAL DEAL.
MY BOY GANONDORF IS AS SLICK AND SICK AS EVER LOOK AT HIM, JUST LOOK AT HIM
THANKS SAKURAI DADDY

Also, his sword REALLY enhances his range, he may be even viable in the next game, just imagine that!
IS IT CHRISTMAS ALREADY?

I've heard several pro players say that Ganon seems significantly better/more fun based on the demo.

 

[Arcadenik]

The thing is the detractors (myself include) wanted a new game. We wanted new stages, new features and new characters. This game is the exact opposite and is "hey all the characters are back."

Well, Smash 6 certainly won't be "Ultimate".

This is what happens when we get a Smash game with zero cuts, we get fewer newcomers.

Oh dear... how will Nintendo and Sakurai top Smash Ultimate in the next Smash game? I mean, Smash 5's selling point is that it's the "ultimate Smash experience" with all characters and presumably all stages in Smash history.

Maybe Smash 6 will be a reboot? What could be Smash 6's selling point?

 

[DYED]

You can mash out of ganoncide now
Unplayable

Who needs ganoncides when you have that T H I C C N O S E
... I think I'll stop being creepy. Starting now.

By the way heh, it's really a pity but if the increased range makes his 1 vs. 1 even more powerful I could be okay with that.

 

[Troykv]

End of The Longest War: The Confirmation of Ridley At Long Last​

At long last, Ridley has finally been confirmed as a playable character in the Super Smash Bros. series. It was a victory and outcome that has been awaited for by Smash Bros. fans ever since Ridley was shown fighting Samus in the Melee trailer released for E3 2001, over 17 years ago.

My Own Personal History with Ridley​

*Sorry, I don't want to make the thread longer than it should be*

Wow Chrono! You have such a great story with Ridley, and it makes feel even better about Ridley's fans and their long waited reveal.

 

[DLEAF]

I keep seeing people throw this around but can someone confirm for me that it isn't Meta Ridley, but instead Proteus Ridley? It doesn't look like full Meta to me much closer to the partial like Proteus had.

Seems like a minor detail but it would show that they were giving attention to Samus Returns.


If you're reffering to that one pic on the site, the fact that it's on the ice Climbers stage and looks like Kirby is inhaling an ice block attack from the climbers makes me think it's just a regular neutral b. I don't see why Palutena would have her specials condensed if customs were staying.

Maybe just for miis? Seems like a weird feature to throw away though too...

I think they're gone for Miis too, since Sakurai said their movesets were streamlined.

...however, they also said old amiibo data could transfer to the new game, and custom moves are a part of amiibo... so who knows.

 

[N3ON]

im like 99% sure i saw samurai goroh, he got covered in ink by an inkling on the botw stage i dont recall when i saw this and MAYBE the ink confused me who it was but im pretty sure i saw this happen

Yeah, I've seen Goroh, he's not on the list.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Okay so do we know how Echo Fighters differ from clones? Has that been clarified? Because I have an idea, and I think a lot of other probably think the same thing.

 

[MrReyes96]

No Hilda outfit for Zelda is a travesty
Especially considering she’s based on LBW

 

[papagenos]

Yeah, I've seen Goroh, he's not on the list.

I totally read that wrong sorry, thought it was a list of whos been seen and quickly scanned it for goroh, my bad.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Echo characters seem to borrow animations 100% aside from maybe idles and taunts. As far as attacks go, animations appear to be identical. I think that's the difference with Echos and Clones. Clones have a different attack here and there, like Doc Tornado and Doc's new down air, the Loafer Lunge.

Lucina, Dark Pit, and presumably Daisy borrow ability animations entirely.

 

[N3ON]

Okay so do we know how Echo Fighters differ from clones? Has that been clarified? Because I have an idea, and I think a lot of other probably think the same thing.

An "Echo character" is just a fancy way of saying clone. More specifically, a near-direct clone. Hence them not even getting their own numbers.

I totally read that wrong sorry, thought it was a list of whos been seen and quickly scanned it for goroh, my bad.

No worries!

 

[Roberk]

I really dislike the subtitle "Ultimate".

ul·ti·mate
ˈəltəmət/
adjective
adjective: ultimate

1. 1.
   being or happening at the end of a process; final.
   "their ultimate aim was to force his resignation"
   synonyms:eventual, final, concluding, terminal, end; More
   
   
   
   • being the best or most extreme example of its kind.
     "the ultimate accolade"
     synonyms:best, ideal, perfect, greatest, supreme, paramount, superlative, highest, utmost, optimum, quintessential
     "the ultimate gift for cat lovers"

The definition of Ultimate is the apex, the final thing. What can top the "top" Smash game? There's surely going to be more Smash games, they make too much money and there's still a ton more in the video game multiverse to explore. They should've stuck with synonyms for battle, or even just make it be "Smash for Switch". It would've made more sense than "yeah this is the best Smash game defined by its name even though even more that are almost guaranteed to be bigger and better is sure to come in a few years."

 

[The Original Robot boy]

Ok I'm calling it sometime in fall or winter we get a test online demo

 

[monadoboy]

Two for OoT and BotW (the big Zeldas), one cel-shaded/toon, one from top down. I'm surprisingly happy with this. No other Smash has represented Zelda even half as good as Ultimate. (Next best thing to getting reworks, at least.) Space world sword for Ganondorf is a nice nod to what could've been and Melee while separating him more from Captain., Young Link takes what Link drops in favor of BotW stuff, which is neat and makes him useful. Link finally has a good Final Smash, Zelda's FS is cooler than a simple arrow and OoT Ganon is the best. Curious to what YLink's Final Smash will be.
Going BotW with Sheik was the best idea, gives BotW and OoT balance instead of being 3 - 1, and is a costume that exists in-game.
Supposedly Link can shoot lasers from the Master Sword when at 0%
This is the first time I'm satisfied with Zelda representation since Melee.
Plus, the mix-match of styles leaves a door open for newcomers... (Personally, I don't even care about newcomers anymore)

 

[DLEAF]

I really dislike the subtitle "Ultimate".

ul·ti·mate
ˈəltəmət/
adjective
adjective: ultimate

1. 1.
   being or happening at the end of a process; final.
   "their ultimate aim was to force his resignation"
   synonyms:eventual, final, concluding, terminal, end; More
   
   
   • being the best or most extreme example of its kind.
     "the ultimate accolade"
     synonyms:best, ideal, perfect, greatest, supreme, paramount, superlative, highest, utmost, optimum, quintessential
     "the ultimate gift for cat lovers"

The definition of Ultimate is the apex, the final thing. What can top the "top" Smash game? There's surely going to be more Smash games, they make too much money and there's still a ton more in the video game multiverse to explore. They should've stuck with synonyms for battle, or even just make it be "Smash for Switch". It would've made more sense than "yeah this is the best Smash game defined by its name even though even more that are almost guaranteed to be bigger and better is sure to come in a few years."

That's marketing for ya.

 

[DYED]

I really dislike the subtitle "Ultimate".

ul·ti·mate
ˈəltəmət/
adjective
adjective: ultimate

1. 1.
   being or happening at the end of a process; final.
   "their ultimate aim was to force his resignation"
   synonyms:eventual, final, concluding, terminal, end; More
   
   
   • being the best or most extreme example of its kind.
     "the ultimate accolade"
     synonyms:best, ideal, perfect, greatest, supreme, paramount, superlative, highest, utmost, optimum, quintessential
     "the ultimate gift for cat lovers"

The definition of Ultimate is the apex, the final thing. What can top the "top" Smash game? There's surely going to be more Smash games, they make too much money and there's still a ton more in the video game multiverse to explore. They should've stuck with synonyms for battle, or even just make it be "Smash for Switch". It would've made more sense than "yeah this is the best Smash game defined by its name even though even more that are almost guaranteed to be bigger and better is sure to come in a few years."

Fun fact.
In the japanese version the title has been changed to "Super Smash Bros. Special", which I think fits way more, it sounds like something out of the norm, and the fact that there are no cuts and a lot of elements from every game is really out of the norm.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

ChronoBound

Truly long time no see man. Been quite wondering what happened to you after you mysteriously disappeared again from one of the group threads we asked you to put your thoughts on.

But once again, really damn happy to you and other Ridley-fans out there. Sadly I'm bit sharing similar sentiments to Dixie's inclusion here and there a bit. I truly hope to be proven wrong though and we'd get both Dixie and K.Rool.

I'll be trying to enjoy Daisy, Roy, cutiepie Zelda, Squirtle and Young Link until then. Here's for hopes for more ultimate in the future.

 

[SlickWylde]

These aren't the only playable characters. There will be many more newcomers after Ridley, Simon, Daisy, and the Inklings.

Why do you believe there will be many, when Sakurai specifically said that we shouldn't expect very many? I understand if you don't think these are the last of them, but to assume both Simon and many more are coming seems a bit like setting yourself up for disappointment, when Sakurai himself is trying to get us to temper our expectations.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm still trying to get over the fact that I can play as Ivysaur again.

That was... that was a top tier level dream.

And no stamina?

It's like Smash heaven!

 

[RileyXY1]

Why do you believe there will be many, when Sakurai specifically said that we shouldn't expect very many? I understand if you don't think these are the last of them, but to assume both Simon and many more are coming seems a bit like setting yourself up for disappointment, when Sakurai himself is trying to get us to temper our expectations.

I was saying that I don't think that Simon is the only newcomer that has yet to be revealed.

 

[Roberk]

When you see the new FE lords as new possibilities for DLC.

 

[Arcadenik]

I really dislike the subtitle "Ultimate".

What if this is like Mortal Kombat Trilogy where the game has all the characters and stages from all the past games?

The next Smash could be a reboot.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Why do you believe there will be many, when Sakurai specifically said that we shouldn't expect very many? I understand if you don't think these are the last of them, but to assume both Simon and many more are coming seems a bit like setting yourself up for disappointment, when Sakurai himself is trying to get us to temper our expectations.

"many" is entirely subjective though, Brawl had 18 characters and smash 4 had 15, this game could go anywhere from 5 newcomers to 12, who actually knows