Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[SirCamp]

Minecraft being repped with a stage or assist trophy would make way more sense to me.

I'm gonna be honest I actively don't want Steve in the game. I'd much rather have Banjo.

We already know why.
Most hard-core gamers want to distance themselves from the kids who play Minecraft.
I think this attitude is dumb to be fair.

And no it has nothing to do with wanting to distance myself from "kids."

The biggest reason I don't want Steve is because as a character he isn't interesting. Minecraft is about building **** and doing whatever you want in a malleable world. Steve himself is largely irrelevant. He's an avatar character with no characterization. Like Robin, but less interesting. Minecraft is certainly iconic and a great game, but that doesn't automatically make Steve interesting. Realistically creepers are more iconic than Steve himself.

The other reason, and it seems a bunch of people disagree with this sentiment now, but Smash to me is about Nintendo and Nintendo's history with respect to gaming. It's not just about gaming generally. And Minecraft really doesn't have a huge connection to Nintendo. Yes, you can play Minecraft on the switch and even the 3DS so it's not entirely out of bounds, but the Switch version is super recent and even given both versions it just isn't a game people associate with Nintendo.

And yes, before you bring it up I know that Cloud is a weird one with respect to that argument, but there IS a difference there. Which is that FF as a series has a rich history with Nintendo, having started on Nintendo consoles. Given that, a FF rep makes sense, and while Cloud specifically doesn't fit, he's is both the closest FF has to a mascot and also was likely the only choice Square Enix gave Nintendo. Personally given my feelings on the matter I would have preferred Black mage myself, but you take what you can get I suppose.

And we already know that Phil Spencer would be okay with Banjo in smash, a character that IS strongly associated with Nintendo consoles, even if he hasn't been present for a while. So if given the choice Banjo makes more sense to ME personally, if we're talking Microsoft characters.

So to me what it comes down to is, when given the choice between a character with strong associations with Nintendo, that literally began on a Nintendo console and which oozes personality and a character that is just an avatar for a game, that while very important to the overall gaming landscape, isn't really associated with Nintendo and has only very recent history with Nintendo is seems like the choice makes itself.

Now it isn't guaranteed that there is actually a dichotomy here and that one precludes the other, in which case I would be perfectly fine with both Banjo and Steve making the cut. I just don't find it terribly likely that two Microsoft owned characters would find their way into Smash. And to me Banjo is far and away the more interesting pick.

 

[Deleted member]

I know everyone hates the size argument, but is he not huge here as well? I've only actually play Star Fox 64 so maybe I'm just wrong, but I thought he was supposed to be massive. And since that picture has no reference frame I really have no idea how big he is in that form.

It's just the giant head and hand with a cloak and cables underneath.

 

[papagenos]

Banjo and Kazooie isn't going to do anything for Microsoft though is the problem. I mean granted, it could just be a Geno situation like he would be with Square.

But in all scenarios where Geno is involved. There's at least Cloud or Cloud and Sora on top of him.

So you can't get Banjo without another Microsoft character I'd wager. Alone he's virtually not happening, because they don't even promote him themselves.

Good point, its sort of like how maybe simon is in cause the ballot had so many snake requests and the "deal" was both with konami.

Maybe they went to microsoft to get Banjo and microsoft wants minecraft in smash and so its a joint deal.

all speculation upon speculation here of course for lots of "info" we dont even know holds any water.

 

[T-Hell]

But on the opposite hand, if you are trying to make a fake leak you would want to sound convinced of what you are saying at 100%.
If he have a leaker that is not convinced and just hear something about minecraft in smash, he would say something similar to "maybe a stage or a trophy"

He could be acting accordingly, like I said, to not seem straight up strange. I still kind of trust him but that wording is suspicious as **** to me.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

So all these leaks, and no one even bothers to mention Wolf nor Crash?

 

[SirCamp]

Banjo and Kazooie isn't going to do anything for Microsoft though is the problem. I mean granted, it could just be a Geno situation like he would be with Square.

But in all scenarios where Geno is involved. There's at least Cloud or Cloud and Sora on top of him.

So you can't get Banjo without another Microsoft character I'd wager. Alone he's virtually not happening, because they don't even promote him themselves.

That's possible. I suppose Phil Spencer's talk of Banjo in smash could just be PR talk/posturing to try and hype people up for Banjo and then use that as leverage.

I'm not convinced that would be necessary though. Microsoft owns Banjo and while they may not know what to do with him now, they are always going to want their properties to be well known and in the public eye. Even better if they don't have to do anything themselves to get that done. And it's entirely possible they could use that momentum to try and revitalize the series (I know I know, crazy fanboy talk. Unlikely as it is). We just don't know what's going on backstage at Microsoft. And really the more exposure their IPs get the better.

 

[Zeox]

So all these leaks, and no one even bothers to mention Wolf nor Crash?

Wolf is in the imgur leak.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

It would help a bit if he stated whether the Snake/Minecraft source is the same source as one of his prior ones, at the moment we're looking at 4 different sources, which is a bit of a mess, although I get he might not be able to give more details if it risks anyone's job.

 

[SirCamp]

Minecraft being repped with a stage or assist trophy would make way more sense to me.

I'm gonna be honest I actively don't want Steve in the game. I'd much rather have Banjo.



And no it has nothing to do with wanting to distance myself from "kids."

The biggest reason I don't want Steve is because as a character he isn't interesting. Minecraft is about building **** and doing whatever you want in a malleable world. Steve himself is largely irrelevant. He's an avatar character with no characterization. Like Robin, but less interesting. Minecraft is certainly iconic and a great game, but that doesn't automatically make Steve interesting. Realistically creepers are more iconic than Steve himself.

The other reason, and it seems a bunch of people disagree with this sentiment now, but Smash to me is about Nintendo and Nintendo's history with respect to gaming. It's not just about gaming generally. And Minecraft really doesn't have a huge connection to Nintendo. Yes, you can play Minecraft on the switch and even the 3DS so it's not entirely out of bounds, but the Switch version is super recent and even given both versions it just isn't a game people associate with Nintendo.

And yes, before you bring it up I know that Cloud is a weird one with respect to that argument, but there IS a difference there. Which is that FF as a series has a rich history with Nintendo, having started on Nintendo consoles. Given that, a FF rep makes sense, and while Cloud specifically doesn't fit, he's is both the closest FF has to a mascot and also was likely the only choice Square Enix gave Nintendo. Personally given my feelings on the matter I would have preferred Black mage myself, but you take what you can get I suppose.

And we already know that Phil Spencer would be okay with Banjo in smash, a character that IS strongly associated with Nintendo consoles, even if he hasn't been present for a while. So if given the choice Banjo makes more sense to ME personally, if we're talking Microsoft characters.

So to me what it comes down to is, when given the choice between a character with strong associations with Nintendo, that literally began on a Nintendo console and which oozes personality and a character that is just an avatar for a game, that while very important to the overall gaming landscape, isn't really associated with Nintendo and has only very recent history with Nintendo is seems like the choice makes itself.

Now it isn't guaranteed that there is actually a dichotomy here and that one precludes the other, in which case I would be perfectly fine with both Banjo and Steve making the cut. I just don't find it terribly likely that two Microsoft owned characters would find their way into Smash. And to me Banjo is far and away the more interesting pick.

To add on to this rant. A Minecraft stage would actually be perfect imo. Because let's be real the most iconic part of Minecraft is the environment. Turning that into a stage, especially one with voxels/destructible stage elements, would perfectly represent the game and what it's about.

EDIT - So I meant to edit my previous post and add this bit as an addendum, but apparently I quoted myself instead. Oops. I'm a bit tired.

 

[Zeox]

To add on to this rant. A Minecraft stage would actually be perfect imo. Because let's be real the most iconic part of Minecraft is the environment. Turning that into a stage, especially one with voxels/destructible stage elements, would perfectly represent the game and what it's about.

edit - so I mean to edit my previous post and add this bit as an addendum, but apparently I quoted myself instead. Oops. I'm a bit tired.

Alright I'm all for a minecraft stage, could be a very fun one, i'm ready to ride this train to the inevitably disappointment when nothing of this is real.

 

[NeonBurrito]

The fact that people are now questioning Vergeben's leak because he mentioned Minecraft is literal proof that the only reason anyone believed him in the first place was for the sake of confirmation bias. Exactly what I predicted.

This whole leak is entirely a matter of "It has characters I like, so it must be legit!" The guy has an extremely incorrect leaking streak, a terrible reputation within the community, is known for constantly editing his posts to make himself look right, and anything he has gotten right has absolutely nothing to do with Nintendo. If the exact same guy said that the newcomers were going to be Bad Boxart Mega Man, Fire Flower Mario, and Raichu, no one would believe him.

The only reason people here believed it in the first place was "Yes! Ridley is in!" But now that talk of Minecraft comes around, that isn't the case anymore. What a surprise.

 

[Pacack]

The leak, whether real or not, did not become any more or less credible from this statement.

The guy still has gotten stuff right in the past, and this doesn't change any of that. He also has gotten stuff wrong in the past, and this doesn't change any of that either. Don't fall into the trap of "I don't want X, therefore X cannot happen."

 

[StrangeMann]

Coming from ResetEra, Looks like we got a new "leak" with footage coming from 4chan.
-Edit: Scratch that, Other users have pointed out these are SFM renders

 

[SirCamp]

He could be acting accordingly, like I said, to not seem straight up strange. I still kind of trust him but that wording is suspicious as **** to me.

It's entirely possible he has multiple sources and is simply more confident in one over the other. Granted, if that's the case and were I in his position I would probably just stay silent until I was more convinced, but everyone makes different judgment calls. Besides that really depends on his intent, it could be that he is drunk on the attention he's receiving, or it could just be that he wants to get as much information out there as he can, but was a little bit more dubious of this info and wanted to reflect that. Or maybe it's all a fabrication and the facade is starting to fade away. We don't really know. It's just something interesting to talk about at the end of the day.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Banjo and Kazooie isn't going to do anything for Microsoft though is the problem. I mean granted, it could just be a Geno situation like he would be with Square.

But in all scenarios where Geno is involved. There's at least Cloud or Cloud and Sora on top of him.

So you can't get Banjo without another Microsoft character I'd wager. Alone he's virtually not happening, because they don't even promote him themselves.

Banjo and Geno aren't comparable. Not that I think Banjo is going to happen (and I must emphasise this point because people are inevitably going to counter my post with irrelevant arguments about likelihood) but the difference is that the head of Microsoft has repeatedly supported the idea of Banjo as a playable character whereas Square Enix has never done so for Geno.

 

[GrownManJones]

Why do you think there are so many roster leaks but not a single leak on actual gameplay? Such as it's 1.25 times faster than Sm4sh, or they brought back ledge/wave dashing.

 

[SuperiorYoshi87]

Are you guys ready for a roster that I went full crazy on? It's based on the premises that Vergeben is for real and also that Sakurai will be revisiting old concepts for this game.

Total Newcomers: 14
Returning Veterans: 3
Clone Newcomers: 1

Newcomer List: Captain Toad, Kamek, Dixie*, Sheriff, Impa, Takamaru, Ridley, Bandana Waddle Dee, Lycanroc, Isabelle, Alph**, Rhythm Heaven Character, Elma, Inklings, Simon Belmont, Rayman

Returning Veterans: Ice Climbers, Wolf, Snake

*Dixie Kong is a unique character added alongside Diddy Kong, as I imagine she was intended to be in Brawl. They're similar to the Ice Climbers, but with two different movesets.

**Alph is a clone.

Characters outlined in yellow are those I'm predicting for DLC. The one's outlined in purple are alternatives I could also see happening for the base roster. Green characters I can imagine happening for DLC, but I am not actively predicting.


Feel free to attack me on these. I know that Kamek, Alph, a Sonic character for DLC, and Sora for DLC are all unpopular predictions, but my point is to be just weird enough that it might line up with Sakurai.

Dude.... I've been thinking Dixie/Diddy tag team could be a possibility especially if we're seeing a lot of the core cast getting changes in this game! Love it!

 

[Arcanir]

Stealth__ said this awhile ago
https://twitter.com/Stealth___/status/1000506502191484928

He's known to have friends with information on rumors and leaks. He's not a leaker though.

Stealth_'s not particularly reliable, back with the DLC he was one of the backers of the Inklings rumor which blew up in his face, and he also got kicked out of ResetEra because he couldn't back up his sources. Vergeban's information could be right, but I wouldn't use Stealth_ as a way to back it up.

As for Vergeban, it's possible this is a 'fourth/fifth source' like stated before, but if that's the case it's getting hard to follow. He really should be better at filtering and clarifying things when he's giving out information like this since it's easy to jumble these things together.

 

[Opossum]

To everyone saying that no one cares about Steve himself, bear in mind that Minecraft merchandise featuring him sells well. Between action figures and Halloween costumes, Steve is easily a more popular character than a good amount of the current roster in Smash.

Can't argue with merchandising.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Why do you think there are so many roster leaks but not a single leak on actual gameplay? Such as it's 1.25 times faster than Sm4sh, or they brought back ledge/wave dashing.

Because like only a small portion of people who play Smash? Actually give two fiddlesticks about all of that. The roster is always the primary selling point to the larger audience.

 

[Awakining]

Why do you think there are so many roster leaks but not a single leak on actual gameplay? Such as it's 1.25 times faster than Sm4sh, or they brought back ledge/wave dashing.

Because characters generate more buzz than gameplay across all levels of fans. A casual player wouldn't necessarily care about any particular technical aspect of the game, but they would definitely start talking if they heard claims that their favorite face would be appearing in the game. Most leakers want to get the most attention that they can, so they exploit the easiest method of obtaining their goal.

 

[Opossum]

I also had not a N64, but the Ultimate roster is the Ultimate roster.
Don't try to fight it. It's DA BESS.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

 

[N3ON]

Having Banjo and Minecraft in the game is the best of both worlds.

 

[Bowserlick]

Only have Banjo & Kazooie in as a character in the blocky style of Minecraft.

That should piss everyone off.

 

[SirCamp]

To everyone saying that no one cares about Steve himself, bare in mind that Minecraft merchandise featuring him sells well. Between action figures and Halloween costumes, Steve is easily a more popular character than a good amount of the current roster in Smash.

Can't argue with merchandising.

Fair enough. I could very easily be wrong about that aspect of Steve's chances. I don't personally play Minecraft much, but I have plenty of friends that do and I just never got the impression that Steve himself was all that important. That might also be a demographic thing since my friend's and I are on the older side. I think we're less likely to buy merchandise like that regardless.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Banjo and Geno aren't comparable. Not that I think Banjo is going to happen (and I must emphasise this point because people are inevitably going to counter my post with irrelevant arguments about likelihood) but the difference is that the head of Microsoft has repeatedly supported the idea of Banjo as a playable character whereas Square Enix has never done so for Geno.

I've noticed this trend of you shooting down literally even the slighest sliver of hope and glimmer for Geno.

Calm down with that.

After all your last statement is proven quite untrue.

Someone at Square had to approve of that Geno costume. And if they really didn't give a crap about him as much as you peddle? They wouldn't have even allowed Sakurai to do that.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Having Banjo and Minecraft in the game is the best of both worlds.

Xbox All-Stars Battle Royale?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Square gives not a single **** for Geno. I doubt they'll be protective of him when they've never bothered to use him

 

[Opossum]

Fair enough. I could very easily be wrong about that aspect of Steve's chances. I don't personally play Minecraft much, but I have plenty of friends that do and I just never got the impression that Steve himself was all that important. That might also be a demographic thing since my friend's and I are on the older side. I think we're less likely to buy merchandise like that regardless.

Nah it's all good, I get it. It's just whenever I go into my local Gamestop there's always a ton of Minecraft merchandise and usually at least one family looking at it.

Only reason I'd be somewhat sad about Steve is if he takes the terraforming gimmick I want Isabelle to have, because it actually fits him even better. Other than that I wouldn't be upset, personally.

 

[?????????????]

I'd be down with Minecraft in Smash.

Minecraft isn't my cup of tea...a lot of my friends love it, but I just couldn't get into it. However, I DO think it's a series with a lot of recognizability.

And if they DID add a Minecraft character on top of it all? It's such a creative game, I think you could make a really fun moveset. Or what if they allowed you to customize Steve's costumes in Smash (skins)?

 

[cmbsfm]

Master Cheif is a skin in Minecraft Switch, does that techinally count as an appearance on a Nintendo console?

 

[GrownManJones]

Because like only a small portion of people who play Smash? Actually give two fiddlesticks about all of that. The roster is always the primary selling point to the larger audience.

I know reading comprehension can be hard, but I was asking why do people know all these characters but haven't mentioned gameplay.

Also, in your mind no one cares, but this Evo Melee will be more hype than Sm4sh and have a Sunday spot. Even when they gave Sm4sh a Sunday slot and not Melee, Melee hit the same numbers on a Saturday. You know why? Because the gameplay, not the roster. But please go on and tell me more.

 

[?????????????]

I know reading comprehension can be hard, but I was asking why do people know all these characters but haven't mentioned gameplay.

Also, in your mind no one cares, but this Evo Melee will be more hype than Sm4sh and have a Sunday spot. Even when they gave Sm4sh a Sunday slot and not Melee, Melee hit the same numbers on a Saturday. You know why? Because the gameplay, not the roster. But please go on and tell me more.

But why do people buy Smash games in the first place?

...It's because they're excited to play as their favorite Nintendo characters. It's the roster.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Nah it's all good, I get it. It's just whenever I go into my local Gamestop there's always a ton of Minecraft merchandise and usually at least one family looking at it.

Only reason I'd be somewhat sad about Steve is if he takes the terraforming gimmick I want Isabelle to have, because it actually fits him even better. Other than that I wouldn't be upset, personally.

We have a criminally low amount of trap/terraforming characters in Smash, I think both can bring enough to the table to be included.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

A procedurally generated Minecraft stage could actually be really fun. They've already experimented with procedurally generated stages in Smash 4 with Tortimer Island and Mario Maker. Why not make a Minecraft stage?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I've noticed this trend of you shooting down literally even the slighest sliver of hope and glimmer for Geno.

Calm down with that.

After all your last statement is proven quite untrue.

Someone at Square had to approve of that Geno costume. And if they really didn't give a crap about him as much as you peddle? They wouldn't have even allowed Sakurai to do that.

Costume =/= Square Enix caring about the idea of Geno as a playable character in Smash, especially since they haven't used him in a major role since 1996, not even in the two Mario sports games they collaborated with Nintendo for.

Master Cheif is a skin in Minecraft Switch, does that techinally count as an appearance on a Nintendo console?

Sure why not.

 

[Cosmic77]

Minecraft is iconic, so I'm fine with any type of representation.

However, if we end up getting Steve as a character, I'm afraid that people will interpret it the wrong way. "So Sakurai really does consider joke characters! Maybe if we try hard enough, we might actually be able to get Goku in Smash!"

 

[SuperiorYoshi87]

I can see Smash getting a Minecraft stage and maybe an assist trophy... MC has been an olive branch between Nintendo and Microsoft. I think it would make sense and it wouldnt be out of sorts. Smash is becoming more and more like a interactive library of gaming history. Snake joining the game back in Brawl completely changed the game and by a larger extent Cloud. Smash is growing into something more and guest appearances are getting bolder. MC is a huge part of gaming history and I wouldn't be opposed to Sakurai giving it some love.

Plus if MC is present that would make me confident wed see Banjo. There's no way Nintendo wouldn't have MS in a room talking about licenses and not bring up Banjo who had a big presence on the ballot. I wouldn't be surprised if MS said you can't one and not the other. You'll get Banjo so long as you represent a current MS IP that's going to see results. MC is an obvious choice as it's relevant to Nintendo and MS.

 

[GrownManJones]

But why do people buy Smash games in the first place?

...It's because they're excited to play as their favorite Nintendo characters. It's the roster.

Reading comprehension = zero. All I asked about was why no leaker has mentioned anything about gameplay. Didn't talk about sales figures, how to sell a game, the roster or Melee until I was forced to.

So once again I just want to know why there's so much leaks around the roster but not one about gameplay. That's what I was asking. Maybe there was a leak that I missed.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Minecraft is iconic, so I'm fine with any type of representation.

However, if we end up getting Steve as a character, I'm afraid that people will interpret it the wrong way. "So Sakurai really does consider joke characters! Maybe if we try hard enough, we might actually be able to get Goku in Smash!"

I mean if people want to feel that way, it's not really a big deal. It's not like they're the ones making the decisions for the game's future. Sakurai has said Goku will never happen, so he will never happen.