Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Zinith]

Hey guys, I decided to make a prediction roster for the sake of making a prediction roster, plus those always spark fun conversations. Here it is:

Most of my choices are pretty standard, to be honest. 68 characters plus the Mii fighters for 71 characters. All the veterans from Smash for Wii U/3DS return and there are 11 newcomers (plus the return of the Ice Climbers).

I don't what's more confusing. That Erdrick is on there, or that his name is not Loto...

 

[True Blue Warrior]

2 pokemon newcomers might be a little out there but not completely unrealistic, 8 completely unique characters is a little much tho, not even mario has that here. Pyra without Rex though? They're kind of a package deal.

People thought Fire Emblem would never get 6 characters and look at where we are. 8 Pokemon is not that much of a stretch.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't what's more confusing. That Erdrick is on there, or that his name is not Loto...

...They're the same person. The name is still correct.

That said, I think Slime would get in easier, being the mascot and having the potential to show off all kinds of Dragon Quest abilities, including the extreme varied spell list.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Yea I feel like alot of ppl are sleeping on another sega character

Space Harrier or Opa Opa repping sega iconic arcade history seem possible

Oh man I would personally love it if they did reference Space Harrier and Fantasy Zone. The SEGA arcade games in particular are fan favorites and to see those get some more love would get people excited. I'm not even joking.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

People thought Fire Emblem would never get 6 characters and look at where we are. 8 Pokemon is not that much of a stretch.

2 of those 6 are also clones, 8 completely original characters from one franchise that isn't mario with 2 brand new ones in the base game is a little out there imo. If anything we'd get a gen 7 one in the base game and a gen 8 one as dlc

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To be honest, I doubt we'll get two newcomers from SM myself. 1 is already questionable at this time due to which one to choose. This isn't an obvious stand out or a Greninja situation, after all. There's multiple viable choices.

 

[Duplighost]

Not to change the topic, but I have a quick question. What do you guys think the likelihood of another "Subspace Emissary" and/or story mode is?

If I recall correctly, Sakurai was going to put one in Smash 4, but decided not to because people would spoil the cutscenes or something? Maybe he's putting it in Smash 5 instead.

To be honest, I doubt we'll get two newcomers from SM myself. 1 is already questionable at this time due to which one to choose. This isn't an obvious stand out or a Greninja situation, after all. There's multiple viable choices.

I agree with this. Greninja was a clear-cut choice from Gen 6, and although Decidueye would be the most likely contender from Gen 7, he isn't as clear-cut a choice as Greninja was.

Plus, the upcoming Pokemon games for Switch are likely the Pikachu/Eevee Kanto remakes, which strays from Gen 7.

However, one thing to always bear in mind is that Sakurai has been developing this game for 3 years, which was during a time that Decidueye was quite relevant with the release of SM. So I wouldn't say his inclusion is super unlikely, either.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I agree with this. Greninja was a clear-cut choice from Gen 6, and although Decidueye would be the most likely contender from Gen 7, he isn't as clear-cut a choice as Greninja was.

Plus, the upcoming Pokemon games for Switch are likely the Pikachu/Eevee Kanto remakes, which strays from Gen 7.

However, one thing to always bear in mind is that Sakurai has been developing this game for 3 years, which was during a time that Decidueye was quite relevant with the release of SM. So I wouldn't say his inclusion is super unlikely, either.

Or another Gen 7 Pokemon. There's quite a few choices. Regardless, 1 of them seems fairly plausible. 2 not as much. I'm thinking whichever ones of the considered lot don't make it in will be Pokeball Pokemon at least.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Or another Gen 7 Pokemon. There's quite a few choices. Regardless, 1 of them seems fairly plausible. 2 not as much. I'm thinking whichever ones of the considered lot don't make it in will be Pokeball Pokemon at least.

You know, come to think of it, when will the Assist Trophy and Pokeball Pokemon disconfirmations start?

 

[TheLastJinjo]

You know, come to think of it, when will the Assist Trophy and Pokeball Pokemon disconfirmations start?

Yeah, I'd like to see the Assist Trophies as soon as possible.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You know, come to think of it, when will the Assist Trophy and Pokeball Pokemon disconfirmations start?

As soon as we see some.

To be perfectly honest, I find it's better than nothing. A character you want playable still showing up in gameplay is still something. But yeah, finding out they're not playable does hurt at first.

 

[Jak_spoon]

Not to change the topic, but I have a quick question. What do you guys think the likelihood of another "Subspace Emissary" and/or story mode is?

If I recall correctly, Sakurai was going to put one in Smash 4, but decided not to because people would spoil the cutscenes or something? Maybe he's putting it in Smash 5 instead.


I agree with this. Greninja was a clear-cut choice from Gen 6, and although Decidueye would be the most likely contender from Gen 7, he isn't as clear-cut a choice as Greninja was.

Plus, the upcoming Pokemon games for Switch are likely the Pikachu/Eevee Kanto remakes, which strays from Gen 7.

However, one thing to always bear in mind is that Sakurai has been developing this game for 3 years, which was during a time that Decidueye was quite relevant with the release of SM. So I wouldn't say his inclusion is super unlikely, either.

I think one of the reasons greninja was such a clear cut is that Sakurai had been wanting to add Takamaru and had ideas for his move set which he was able to easily adjust and put on greninja. I think he’s had a desire for a ninja class character for a while. As seen by sheik.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Not to change the topic, but I have a quick question. What do you guys think the likelihood of another "Subspace Emissary" and/or story mode is?

If I recall correctly, Sakurai was going to put one in Smash 4, but decided not to because people would spoil the cutscenes or something? Maybe he's putting it in Smash 5 instead.


I agree with this. Greninja was a clear-cut choice from Gen 6, and although Decidueye would be the most likely contender from Gen 7, he isn't as clear-cut a choice as Greninja was.

Plus, the upcoming Pokemon games for Switch are likely the Pikachu/Eevee Kanto remakes, which strays from Gen 7.

However, one thing to always bear in mind is that Sakurai has been developing this game for 3 years, which was during a time that Decidueye was quite relevant with the release of SM. So I wouldn't say his inclusion is super unlikely, either.

At the time of Smash 4 speculation, there wasn't a clear cut most popular/promoted Pokemon. Decidueye is in a different situation than Greninja because for Sun & Moon, Mimikyu is unarguably the most popular and promoted Pokemon. It's unknown if this was foreseen by the Pokemon Company prior to when the roster was decided, but they clearly had plans to push Mimikyu as can be demonstrated by his major role in the Anime and as a totem Pokemon in Sun & Moon.

Decidueye seems to mostly be predicted because he's a final evolution like Greninja was and it's easier and less imaginative to see him working in a fighting game. For speculators it's like "Oh, Sakurai's over here. He's gonna add the star of the last movie. Oh, he's over here, he's gonna add the most popular starter. Oh, wait, now he's over here."

The big candidates seem to be Mimikyu, Decidueye, and Zeraora. And popularity/promotion wise, Mimikyu is the biggest candidate.

 

[PeridotGX]

I feel like we're getting 2 additional Pokémon in this game. One is Gen 7, either Decidueye or Lycanroc. The other could be literally anyone, be it a Veteran returning, another Gen 7 mon, or Sakurai looking back and adding an old Pokémon.

You know, come to think of it, when will the Assist Trophy and Pokeball Pokemon disconfirmations start?

I sorta hope they come soon. I was looking back at some old Smash 4 threads and the Graveyard Thread for disconfirmed characters was interesting.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

I finally finished my roster prediction update. Here it is:

I'm at work, so I had to make it a little differently.

Would love to discuss, but be adults about it. This is with DLC potential included. I emphasis, this is not a base roster, but a finalized, post-DLC, prediction roster. Thank you.

19 total newcomers.

2 returning vets.

2 cuts. (Since I believe this game will use Smash 4 assets heavily, but not totally.)

I didn't not use a basis regarding recent rumors, because we don't have any concrete evidence, and a rumor is a rumor is a rumor until proven otherwise. No matter how credible the source is, or once was.

Thoughts? Questions?

Edit: This will be updated post E3.

 

[Pakky]

So, I've got this idea running in my mind for a while now. What do you all think of a rival system like that of MvC and Playstation All-Stars?

I would like it a lot actually. Special intros or stage entrances for rivaled characters would be great.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I finally finished my roster prediction update. Here it is:
View attachment 145228
I'm at work, so I had to make it a little differently.

Would love to discuss, but be adults about it. This is with DLC potential included. I emphasis, this is not a base roster, but a finalized, post-DLC, prediction roster. Thank you.

19 total newcomers.

2 returning vets.

2 cuts. (Since I believe this game will use Smash 4 assets heavily, but not totally.)

I didn't not use a basis regarding recent rumors, because we don't have any concrete evidence, and a rumor is a rumor is a rumor until proven otherwise. No matter how credible the source is, or once was.

Thoughts? Questions?

Edit: This will be updated post E3.

Why Wonder Red?

 

[Pokechu]

i still feel like everyone's sleeping on squirtle and ivysaur, especially if these pokemon leaks are true and the game is a kanto game

if 5ma5h isn't entirely new and builds onto smash 4 then i don't see why we couldn't get squirtle and ivysaur, especially since there's no clear cut frontrunner for the gen 7 rep and squirtle and ivysaur were unique veterans that got cut due to the loss of transformations, I think it's entirely possible we get them back instead of decidueye/lycanroc/mimikyu/whoever.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Why Wonder Red?

Why not wonder red? He's certainly not the strangest thing in this roster lol

 

[Icedragonadam]

https://sourcegaming.info/2016/01/21/sakuraixnomuraparttwo/

So apparantly it's being brought up on the other site that Castlevania was a big impact for Sakurai.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

I doubt Lucina is being cut. Way to popular and easy to put in since her assets all exist in Marth.

 

[PeridotGX]

i still feel like everyone's sleeping on squirtle and ivysaur, especially if these pokemon leaks are true and the game is a kanto game

if 5ma5h isn't entirely new and builds onto smash 4 then i don't see why we couldn't get squirtle and ivysaur, especially since there's no clear cut frontrunner for the gen 7 rep and squirtle and ivysaur were unique veterans that got cut due to the loss of transformations, I think it's entirely possible we get them back instead of decidueye/lycanroc/mimikyu/whoever.

If Gen 8 is a Kanto revisit, I think that Squirtle is a very viably choice, but in addition to a Gen 7 Pokémon.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Why Wonder Red?

I feel he has a lot of potential. His game did alright, and I think a moveset revolving around the rest of the main cast of the team would be unique. Having the other main color Wonders come out because Red is giving orders to attack. It’s hard to explain, but I see it so perfectly in my head.

How’s the rest of the roster? What grade do I get out of 10?

 

[Captain Fun]

I feel he has a lot of potential. His game did alright, and I think a moveset revolving around the rest of the main cast of the team would be unique. Having the other main color Wonders come out because Red is giving orders to attack. It’s hard to explain, but I see it so perfectly in my head.

How’s the rest of the roster? What grade do I get out of 10?

Huh. Last I had heard, Wonderful 101 did really poorly.

Then again, if sales were everything, Bayonetta wouldn't be in.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

I feel he has a lot of potential. His game did alright, and I think a moveset revolving around the rest of the main cast of the team would be unique. Having the other main color Wonders come out because Red is giving orders to attack. It’s hard to explain, but I see it so perfectly in my head.

How’s the rest of the roster? What grade do I get out of 10?

9/10 roster. All great choices.
Only downside is Wario is once again alone and I doubt Lucina is going anywhere.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I finally finished my roster prediction update. Here it is:
View attachment 145228
I'm at work, so I had to make it a little differently.

Would love to discuss, but be adults about it. This is with DLC potential included. I emphasis, this is not a base roster, but a finalized, post-DLC, prediction roster. Thank you.

19 total newcomers.

2 returning vets.

2 cuts. (Since I believe this game will use Smash 4 assets heavily, but not totally.)

I didn't not use a basis regarding recent rumors, because we don't have any concrete evidence, and a rumor is a rumor is a rumor until proven otherwise. No matter how credible the source is, or once was.

Thoughts? Questions?

Edit: This will be updated post E3.

- 2 unique pokemon newcomers, from the same gen as well isn't likely to me, it makes more sense to have a gen 7 pokemon in the base game and then a gen 8 one later on as DLC.
- As far as Zelda reps go toon Zelda is a strange choice, she's not very relevant or very popular and she's overshadowed by her alter ego Tetra.
- I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that FE spot is for the next game which I don't think is likely, its way too soon for that.
- Octolings and no ribbon girl?
- Really don't see Doc, Dark Pit or Lucina being cut since they're so easy, if anything I think it's far more likely they'll be luigified.

 

[Sigran101]

They aren't final bosses. They're a big part of the game and some of the most notable in it. So it's not exactly a great analogy. Plus, Ganon, in this particular case, is something everybody can easily see really quickly on. They also clearly are far more part of the game than the demo shows, so I don't see the point in mentioning that.

However, you're missing the point being made; it's that if he sees the beta characters(not the demo, but drawings, and information on them) and finds something interesting, he will consider them and possibly put them in. Greninja being that popular wasn't something that Sakurai considered. It was his moveset potential that he saw right away.

Popularity isn't the end-all. It isn't even a very relevant thing he needs to outright look for when it comes to a character he's seeing before the game would be released. He can't gauge later popularity. What he can gauge is if he thinks he can make the character likable overall as a playable character. That's far more important than straight popularity.

I completely agree. If this wasn't true we'd never have gotten game and watch or R.O.B. or possibly even Wolf.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Why not wonder red? He's certainly not the strangest thing in this roster lol

What’s the strangest thing to you? I honestly genuinely want to know.

I doubt Lucina is being cut. Way to popular and easy to put in since her assets all exist in Marth.

I’m wishywashy with her. The same could be said about Wolf, and Pichu before him, but they’re no longer with us. The only reason I put Wolf on the roster is because of the high demand for his return. She’s popular, but Sakurai also prides himself on uniqueness, and Lucina doesn’t offer a whole lot because all of her assets exist in Marth.

Either way. I won’t be upset if she returns. I’d be happy for all those that wanted her back. I personally don’t like her, and that probably did play in part of why I removed her, but who am I? I took other things into account too. Clones tend to be low priority though.

If Gen 8 is a Kanto revisit, I think that Squirtle is a very viably choice, but in addition to a Gen 7 Pokémon.

If the rumors are true, and it’s a Yellow reboot/remaster, I could see Eevee, but I know that’s been hashed out recently. I’d love to see Squirtle again. Little cutie pie.

Huh. Last I had heard, Wonderful 101 did really poorly.

Then again, if sales were everything, Bayonetta wouldn't be in.

Hmm? Maybe I have my information mixed up. I thought it was one of the more successful Wii U titles. Regardless. I know some of my picks are a little out there.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I completely agree. If this wasn't true we'd never have gotten game and watch or R.O.B. or possibly even Wolf.

Semi-odd examples, but yeah. R.O.B. has his own reasons for being, same with Wolf.

It's why the "is currently relevant" or "game was released within the right time frame for Sakurai to get information during development" isn't the only factor. They're absolutely factors and do influence some of the roster. But not the be-end-all. Wolf was pretty much only in due to being easier to make than Krystal, as he was a retool of Fox, so a different kind of clone(one that people can't easily tell is one outside of the special moves at best). Never mind him using some moves among other cast members. Not that any of this is a bad thing)including being clone-related).

Anyway, I think he's gotten information on BOTW and S/M stuff before their actual releases. Not that it means we're absolutely getting a character from them(S/M I think is more likely than BOTW myself, but eh).

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

What’s the strangest thing to you? I honestly genuinely want to know.

Toon Zelda probably, or the 2 gen 7 pokemon newcomers or the monster hunter

 

[Zinith]

...They're the same person. The name is still correct.

That said, I think Slime would get in easier, being the mascot and having the potential to show off all kinds of Dragon Quest abilities, including the extreme varied spell list.

I believe Loto is the canonical name though, and was even called that in the US Game Boy release

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

- 2 unique pokemon newcomers, from the same gen as well isn't likely to me, it makes more sense to have a gen 7 pokemon in the base game and then a gen 8 one later on as DLC.
- As far as Zelda reps go toon Zelda is a strange choice, she's not very relevant or very popular and she's overshadowed by her alter ego Tetra.
- I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that FE spot is for the next game which I don't think is likely, its way too soon for that.
- Octolings and no ribbon girl?
- Really don't see Doc, Dark Pit or Lucina being cut since they're so easy, if anything I think it's far more likely they'll be luigified.

-That’s fair, and I actually agree with you. When I was originally making my roster out in text, I had it set up where we’d get a Gen VII. Pokémon (Lycanroc) and a Gen VIII Pokémon for DLC, but after the rumors of the Pokémon Switch games came out, and were seemingly confirmed, I didn’t know when we’d be getting Gen VIII. Though Smash is coming out relatively early in the Switch’s life, so maybe we’ll get DLC support for awhile.

- I believe both Zelda and Link will get moveset revamps to coincide with BotW, and I added Toon Zelda as a way to maintain Zelda’s old moveset for those who enjoy how she originally played. That’s going off a head-canon belief though.

- Could pull a Roy. Depends of when the game is coming out, and how long it’s been in development. Even then, DLC is a possibility.

- Splatoon is a commercial success, and has a plethora of weapons to pull from. ARMS is still a baby learning to walk, but I added Spring Man because he’s the poster boy of the franchise. That being said, Ribbon Girl could be interchanged with him for that spot and I’d be fine. I just chose him out of habit.

- I can’t believe a rumor until I see it manifest into confirmation. We have always had cuts, and a new title, regardless of how much Smash 4 is used, will have cuts. Not everyone can make varsity, and a lot of times it’s clones. Pichu, Roy, Young Link (technically), were cut from Melee. 3 of the 4 were clones. Snake, Ice Climbers, Pokémon Trainer, Lucas, and Wolf were cut from Brawl to Wii U/3DS. 1 was licensing, 2 were technical issues, and 2 were clones. Albeit one was brought back via DLC. However, clones are usually low priority. Doc is on my roster by the way.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I believe Loto is the canonical name though, and was even called that in the US Game Boy release

All I said is they're both correct names for him. Not which is currently canon. Not that I entirely disagree with your point, but Erdrick may be arguably even a more recognizable names to fans. It's hard to say what they'd use. It also is a cooler name than Loto, but eh.

 

[FlareHabanero]

People constantly bring up the aspect of development timing being the basis for character selection, but there's a fatal problem with this type of logic.

Nintendo has had a rather weak time period for several years between 2013-2016, with the Wii U in particular being a magnet for rather controversial games or game droughts. It would be a disservice if that time period was the focus of the next Smash game, since Nintendo themselves like to pretend the Wii U never happened. Though to be fair the 3DS has had better success, so I could them focusing a lot more on that system instead.

This is kind of reflected in the character selection too. It's like, you're limiting yourself to characters from Fire Emblem, The Legend of Zelda, Super Mario Bros., Pokemon, Kirby, and miscellaneous titles like Rhythm Heaven Megamix and Xenoblade Chronicles X. Settling purely on that is way too restricting, and like I said this is during a period when Nintendo was pumping out controversial titles, so some characters would get heat just because they're tied to such games, like how Toad gained a negative reception in recent years due to being pushed so hard in spin-offs.

I would not be surprised if the development team purposely went in the opposite direction this time around, looking ahead into future games in order to possibly get better options. Plus there's still the factor of character inclusions being influenced by the ballot, characters already being considered being reconsidered again, and of course the grey area that is the guest characters.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Toon Zelda probably, or the 2 gen 7 pokemon newcomers or the monster hunter

I explained Toon Zelda in my other reply.

I agree with the 2 Gen VII. Pokémon.

Monster Hunter is extremely popular, and has had a long history with Nintendo. I think it’s possible. I actually think it’s likely.

 

[NintendoKnight]

Geez, I'm gone for a day or two and I miss a ton of solid snake discussion.

Both the discussion of Ganondorf's cloneship, and the new love for Simon.

My one desire for Simon is that his back roll dodge resembles this:

 

[TheSpitefulWolf]

still can't wrap my head around how some folk think we're getting 13+ ****ing characters. that poll up top is ****ing nuts.

i'm feeling 4 non-smash-4 charas coming, and two of that number are old vets. inkling, springman, wolf, and icies. makes the roster 60, and that's ****ing gigantic already.

 

[Fenriraga]

So here's an interesting little bit of research.

For those who don't want to watch this guy stammer for 8 minutes, let me condense what he says.

At the recent KH3 event, this guy talked with various Square and Disney reps, most importantly the Vice President and General Manager of Disney's Japan branch. He asked him two questions: Who owns Sora/has the legal rights to Sora, and what his chances would be of getting into Smash.

He said that, speaking purely legally, Disney does indeed own Sora. However, whenever they do absolutely anything with Sora, they always get the A-OK from Namoura. They don't want to do anything that might make him uncomfortable, or put Sora in a situation that hurts his or the series' image. So while Disney does own Sora, Namoura always has the final say in how Sora is used. He's Namoura's baby, as they say.

As for his chances for Smash, the VP turned the question back and asked if it's something he thinks the fans want, would love to see, would be comfortable with, etc etc. He said if all of those things were to come to fruition, it's something they would very seriously consider. They'd also want Nintendo to reach out to them rather than the other way around.

So... Yeah. Just felt that would be an interesting point to share. I still don't see him as likely, but it's always nice to have more insight to unique situations like Sora.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

still can't wrap my head around how some folk think we're getting 13+ ****ing characters. that poll up top is ****ing nuts.

i'm feeling 4 non-smash-4 charas coming, and two of that number are old vets. inkling, springman, wolf, and icies. makes the roster 60, and that's ****ing gigantic already.

2 years to create 4 characters?

What do you think Sakurai has been doing this entire time?

 

[NintendoKnight]

still can't wrap my head around how some folk think we're getting 13+ ****ing characters. that poll up top is ****ing nuts.

i'm feeling 4 non-smash-4 charas coming, and two of that number are old vets. inkling, springman, wolf, and icies. makes the roster 60, and that's ****ing gigantic already.

It's not hard to to understand once you learn that the newcomer count has increased literally every game since 64's debut.

There are still plenty of characters that could potentially be in this game. Personally, I see this game as the golden opportunity for Sakurai to dip back into the older games and pull out some older characters that haven't been given as much attention recently, since there aren't a ton of newer characters to pull from right now that aren't from ARMS or a XenoBlade title.

Edit: Newcomers per game.

SSB64: 12.
SSBM: 14.
SSBB: 18.
SSB4: 21.

It's only gone up.