Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Edgelord_197]

Didn't the new Bomerman game have Simon as a guest character and used the classic Barabarian look?

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

> People discuss about Simon Belmont for Smash
> People has to bring up a certain controversial fighting game spinoff with bad writing and designs

Never change Castlevania fans, never change.

 

[BluePikmin11]

So I have a new topic:

I keep thinking about people debating Konami characters between Bomberman and Simon because of the leaks. And I had a thought about Bomberman in particular. I picture Bomberman mostly as a stage control specialist with a ton of explosives for his moveset, but then I think about Snake and how he kinda basically does what Bomberman in playstyle and basic concept. Do you think if Snake and Simon get considered for this game, it might be harder for Bomberman to get in as a playable character?

I am just considering Sakurai and how he likes to make his cast of characters diverse.

http://sourcegaming.info/2015/07/09/megaman-villager-wiifit/

On the contrary, no matter how suited a character may be to fighting, if I cannot meaningfully distinguish them from other characters, or create fun unique characteristics of the characters, then that’s the end for them.

I think it is very likely that Snake will be compared to Bomberman gameplay-wise if Snake is planned to return in Smash Switch.

 

[Sonic Poke]

I've been out for two days and we suddenly have 25ish more pages and all about Simon Belmont.
Why are you guys thinking he is likely all of the sudden?
If it's a leak (what I suspect), why does it look true?

 

[One winged Devil]

Would you care to explain the difference here as it's relevant to our naughty vampire hunter?

Look up bikini battle damage.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Alright here's something I pulled together. It's a prediction roster of sorts, only based on info from current rumors, mostly the Ridley/Simon one and Emily's tease of an "Ultimate Smash Roster". A couple of these rumors have stated similar ideas (likely to be no cuts, several people mentioning Ridley) so I think there could be a connection. Plus it adds up to the my idea that this started as a port, and maybe got beefed up to an ultimate version or something. Anyway take a look.

10 Newcomers + 3 Returning Vets. Based most of my decisions off characters that are popular that would make it onto an "Ultimate Roster" via the ballot and such. This roster generally doesn't consider recent releases and such, hence no new Xenoblade rep, but only characters that would stir excitement. I'll throw in a few explanations.

Spoiler

Mario Rep - Several Mario characters are highly requested (Toad/Waluigi/Paper Mario/even Daisy) and we've pretty consistently gotten new Mario reps. So just a popular Mario character.
Takamaru - Kept with the retro rep and went for a popular one. Might be unnecessary.
Pokemon Rep - Alright this is the only one that really would have been influenced by recent games and that's only because Pokemon games sell, so there's no real worry with one of the new Pokemon being popular or not. Any Gen 7 Pokemon, pick whichever makes you happiest.
Chorus Men - Along with Ice Climbers getting put in due to no constraints, I think Sakurai was working on Chorus Men and faced the same issue. That's just Gematsu leak conspiracy though I'm not partial to their inclusion
Rayman - Just makes too much sense. But you can substitute for a more popular 3rd party that might be chosen because of the ballot.

I'm open to suggestions, but I want to keep it at this many characters, no more no less (it makes a perfect rectangle and I think would still fit the original CSS screen nicely...yeah I know that isn't important lol). 69 (71 with all Miis) also seems like a reasonable number of characters. Also reminder that this isn't my actual prediction but just a fun experiment based on the recent rumors so don't be mean

No Dixie? With relevance and popularity on her side I could see Sakurai double DK dipping like he did Mario in the last game, maybe I'm biased but she feels like a safer bet than K Rool tbh. And Isabelle is another extremely popular character that I feel is probably gonna happen.

 

[MarioMeteor]

What's wrong with that design that everyone keeps complaining about it?

Do people just really like to pretend to be super outraged every time a video game character gets a new design just because it's drastically different and they see everyone else acting outraged?

There’s a difference between “new” design and “bad” design. It wasn’t just Simon, either. Everybody in that game looked terrible, except for Aeon, who was a character created just for Judgement.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

No Dixie? With relevance and popularity on her side I could see Sakurai double DK dipping like he did Mario in the last game, maybe I'm biased but she feels like a safer bet than K Rool tbh. And Isabelle is another extremely popular character that I feel is probably gonna happen.

Having both Dixie and K. Rool would be ideal and I'd be cool with Isabelle.

 

[SonicMario]

So I have a new topic:

I keep thinking about people debating Konami characters between Bomberman and Simon because of the leaks. And I had a thought about Bomberman in particular. I picture Bomberman mostly as a stage control specialist with a ton of explosives for his moveset, but then I think about Snake and how he kinda basically does what Bomberman in playstyle and basic concept. Do you think if Snake and Simon get considered for this game, it might be harder for Bomberman to get in as a playable character?

I am just considering Sakurai and how he likes to make his cast of characters diverse.

http://sourcegaming.info/2015/07/09/megaman-villager-wiifit/



I think it is very likely that Snake will be compared to Bomberman gameplay-wise if Snake is planned to return in Smash Switch.

I do kinda think that if Simon is in Smash Switch. It makes Snake a prime candidate for DLC. The initial disappointment of Snake/Metal Gear fans once Simon shows up will be noticeable. But imagine the scenario of this. With Konami already contracted into Smash. And with 2nd company reps usually having been DLC in the past game. For the exception of Corrin, DLC in Smash 4 was either A. A popular 3rd Party icon of some note in History and/or Nintendo or B. A much wanted veteran from a past game. Snake is both of these combined.

I can almost already smell a Lucas-type reveal where the screen goes blank and we get a "Kept you waiting, huh?".

Granted Konami could still stiff arm Snake out and just have Simon. If they really are that petty to Kojima. But I think the window to Snake's return will be very much open if we do indeed get Simon.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

No Dixie? With relevance and popularity on her side I could see Sakurai double DK dipping like he did Mario in the last game, maybe I'm biased but she feels like a safer bet than K Rool tbh. And Isabelle is another extremely popular character that I feel is probably gonna happen.

I think K.Rool was probably more requested via the ballot and is more popular overall...however yea Dixie is absolutely on my prediction roster, I think she's way more likely.

Isabelle I deftinely missed...I don't know if she would have been requested but she's very popular. She's on my actual prediction too.

I wanna post mine at some point here, how do you all make such nicer roster pics? Is it all Photoshop/other editing software?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I think K.Rool was probably more requested via the ballot and is more popular overall...however yea Dixie is absolutely on my prediction roster, I think she's way more likely.

Isabelle I deftinely missed...I don't know if she would have been requested but she's very popular. She's on my actual prediction too.

I wanna post mine at some point here, how do you all make such nicer roster pics? Is it all Photoshop/other editing software?

I just make mine in photoshop, takes way too much time that I could spend doing actually productive things lol

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

> People discuss about Simon Belmont for Smash
> People has to bring up a certain controversial fighting game spinoff with bad writing and designs

Never change Castlevania fans, never change.

It’s like Metroid fans and Federation Force.

Or Paper Mario fans and any post Super Paper Mario game.

 

[wildvine47]

So I have a new topic:

I keep thinking about people debating Konami characters between Bomberman and Simon because of the leaks. And I had a thought about Bomberman in particular. I picture Bomberman mostly as a stage control specialist with a ton of explosives for his moveset, but then I think about Snake and how he kinda basically does what Bomberman in playstyle and basic concept. Do you think if Snake and Simon get considered for this game, it might be harder for Bomberman to get in as a playable character?

I am just considering Sakurai and how he likes to make his cast of characters diverse.

http://sourcegaming.info/2015/07/09/megaman-villager-wiifit/



I think it is very likely that Snake will be compared to Bomberman gameplay-wise if Snake is planned to return in Smash Switch.

I think Snake and Bomberman are definitely different enough from a gameplay perspective for overlap to not be an issue. Snake's stage control explosive tools are his mine downsmash and c4 down special. Both are immobile bombs with a small radius of effect, one of which Snake has to activate on his own.

Bomberman would be a whole different ballgame. Rather than having stationary bombs like snake, Bomberman would be kicking, throwing, and sliding his bombs all over the stage, where they'd explode with weaker but larger plus-shaped explosions. Whereas Snake plays the slower game of trying to force you into the zone he controls, Bomberman's area of control would be constantly moving and shifting with him.

The bigger problem Bomberman faces is whether or not Nintendo's down to let Konami have three characters. That's where the issue really lies imo.

 

[Garteam]

Regarding Simon's design, its always kind of reflected the way that Japanese art has progressed since the 80s. When the original Castlevania came out in 1986, muscular heroes were all the rage because of films such as Terminator and Rocky. This ascetic became popular in Japan and having a bulging tank of muscles as your protagonist became a shorthand for showing a protagonist as capable. Simon Belmont's design in Castlevania I, II, and (to a lesser extent) IV reflects this idea so he's got biceps that would make the greatest of gym rats blush.

By the time the 1990s began, skinnier main characters began phasing muscular characters out in both American and Japanese media. Tone was much more preferred than pure size when designing characters in games, anime, and manga, so Simon's design was slimmed down but still muscular for 1993's Castlevania judgement.

By the mid 1990s, the muscular ascetic was basically thrown out the window in favour of making the characters look more feminine with softer features and longer hair. This is where the more modern Simon design comes from, with Simon rocking the red hair and looking more like Marth than his original NES design.

If you guys want to see this phenomenon in action, just google the art of Fist of the North Star, Yu Yu Hakusho, and Rurouni Kenshin, 3 popular manga that all ran in Shonen Jump at different times that follow the art direction of their period (or just look up the art progression of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure). Regarding Smash, I'm fairly certain Sakurai will use Simon's classic design, given how its the most iconic incarnation of the character. Plus, I imagine Sakurai's vision for Simon will play most closely to the NES games like Mega Man, so it makes sense to use the design of the times.

 

[SvartWolf]

The site seems to be experiencing issues, since it's only letting me like this post once :/

 

[Strider_Bond00J]

Re: Simon Belmont/Castlevania in Smash Bros - I can see it happening, and if it does happen, I'll be pleasantly surprised. Not exactly my most wanted third-party character (though this debate and discussion is making me want him in Smash now), but I think he's got plenty of potential to bring to Smash Bros.

Maybe I might go back to that Roster I was thinking of posting and adding Simon to it... But, uni work calls. ¡Hasta luego!

 

[MarioMeteor]

Unfortunately, the odds of anything Castlevania in Smash almost impossible, unless it’s a Castlevania Pachinko machine with a Mario cameo or something.

Konami is just such a wonderful company.

 

[NintenRob]

All this talk of Castlevania and Vampires reminds me of a joke moveset I made for Dawn (from Buffy the Vampire Slayer) once.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/17bMDlTBxDZvHe82evI3NU5rBPaWeKTpS2AxMJhIqaUM/edit?usp=sharing

It's a good laugh, especially if you've watched the show.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

There's no reason to debate which Konami character should be in Smash. Sakurai wants smash to be the ultimate crossover fighter.

He wouldn't limit himself to certain number of characters from a company. If he wanted 2 more capcom character he could do it and theres no rule he has stopping him from doing that.

 

[MrRoidley]

If you ask me, Simon might go Bayo/Cloud and have both the 80's design (blonde, buff) and 90's designs (red-haired bishonen) for you to choose. Adaptations might have to be made in both in order for them to fit as costumes of each other, but I think it will happen. I mean, I'm saying for myself, but as someone that has never played Castlevania, I recognize Simon better by his red-haired design than the original one

 

[SchAlternate]

Simon Belmont must be in the game, if only so we can get a clip of the narrator saying the word Belmondo as well.

Well, that and the fact that he'd be a legitimately cool addition and Castlevania is a legendary series that deserves a spot in Smash's history.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I think if (in an alternate universe) Castlevania were to get a representative in Smash, it would most likely be Alucard, since he is the most reoccurring (and arguably important) character in the franchise.

 

[One winged Devil]

So if Simon does get in then who should voice him?

 

[Opossum]

So if Simon does get in then who should voice him?

I always pictured him having a low bass voice. Like, Travis Willingham, maybe, if he'd be willing.

 

[Nu~]

I think if (in an alternate universe) Castlevania were to get a representative in Smash, it would most likely be Alucard, since he is the most reoccurring (and arguably important) character in the franchise.

The character certainly has a wide range of more interesting abilities than Simon.

I think a castlevania rep in general is pretty likely though

 

[BlondeLombax]

It’s like Metroid fans and Federation Force.

Or Paper Mario fans and any post Super Paper Mario game.

Or Banjo fans and Nuts & Bolts (a game I personally adore, but as its own thing). These kinds of things are always present.

So if Simon does get in then who should voice him?

Well, he did have a pretty badass one in Super Bomberman R (say what you want about that game, I just see it that way). Remove the warbling effect and record a few new lines, and we'd be set.

 

[MarioMeteor]

So if Simon does get in then who should voice him?

It would depend on what design they use. It’d be cool if they got Richard Armitage (Trevor’s anime voice actor) to do it.

The character certainly has a wide range of more interesting abilities than Simon

Yes he does. It’s pretty strange how, despite being the character most people associate with Castlevania, Simon isn’t given a consistent design, nor does he star in any recent games.

 

[Fenriraga]

> People discuss about Simon Belmont for Smash
> People has to bring up a certain controversial fighting game spinoff with bad writing and designs

Never change Castlevania fans, never change.

Bringing up a Castlevania fighting game upon a rumor of a Castlevania character making it into a fighting game? What are the odds! :V

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Joke: DK Rap
Woke: Bloody Tears rap

 

[Fenriraga]

Here's something I totally forgot until a second ago.

Along with the likes of Snake, Bomberman, Twinbee and others, Simon was playable in this weird Japan only platform fighter. Some of Snake's moves in Brawl definitely took some inspiration from this game, so I wonder if the same could be said for Simon?

 

[Freduardo]

Here's something I totally forgot until a second ago.

Along with the likes of Snake, Bomberman, Twinbee and others, Simon was playable in this weird Japan only platform fighter. Some of Snake's moves in Brawl definitely took some inspiration from this game, so I wonder if the same could be said for Simon?

If I’m taking someone from that game, I’m trolling every “Goku for Smash” by getting Optimus Prime in Smash.

I mean... Labo Robot is really really close...

 

[Roberk]

There's some great irony when people complain about "anime" in Super Smash Bros. despite every single game being developed by a Japanese company and Japanese-developed games are heavily prioritized as a result.

Like what the hell are you expecting here?

I don't get why they would use "anime" to single stuff like FE and Xenoblade out. Doesn't Pokemon have one of the longest-running animes ever, with many of its characters being designed in "anime" styles? Or even Zelda, which can exude some "anime" tropes and designs at times.

Also, why is it bad? Are they against a very generalized art-style? None of the "anime" characters in Smash really exhibit the bad tropes of "anime" (other than stuff in Corrin's originating game, but that's a whole other deal.)

Honestly, it seems like a scapegoat argument for people that are mad that their franchises didn't get as many reps as they wanted.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

I don't get why they would use "anime" to single stuff like FE and Xenoblade out. Doesn't Pokemon have one of the longest-running animes ever, with many of its characters being designed in "anime" styles? Or even Zelda, which can exude some "anime" tropes and designs at times.

Also, why is it bad? Are they against a very generalized art-style? None of the "anime" characters in Smash really exhibit the bad tropes of "anime" (other than stuff in Corrin's originating game, but that's a whole other deal.)

Honestly, it seems like a scapegoat argument for people that are mad that their franchises didn't get as many reps as they wanted.

Western Pride/ diet Xenophobia

You'd be amazed at the amount influential anime industry veterans people that did so much for animation and video games that worked there butts off skillfully drawings these incredible animated sequences only to be ignored or insulted by some American kid on the internet because "lol anime"

Yoichi Kotabe who worked a ton on anime with Toei and veterans like Miyazaki in the 60s is very important to Nintendo history. He modernized Mario and Links design and was the main inspiration for Wind Waker Art style.

 

[Deleted member]

Simon Belmet? I am not a Castalvania guy, but I can see people's reasoning..
I mean I heard his early games were popular, and was on a Nintendo console.

Also it seems people are forgetting one Pokemon that can potentially be in Smash...

 

[ThatShadowLink]

So if Simon does get in then who should voice him?

Even though his only (English) VA is from... Judgement, Keith SIlverstein is a phenomenal actor, one of the best in the industry. If he remains as Simon, I wouldn't be mad.

 

[Sigran101]

Because power is about physical prowess, not magic alone. It doesn't "show power". Power is about being near untouchable(like with super armor), sending people flying. Power is basically Strength.

No, moves makes sense because one can picture them doing it. Otherwise most movesets wouldn't work. If it has to fix what the character can potentially do. Ganondorf himself has very few canon moves to draw from to make a full moveset, unlike, say, Mario, who has most moves covered. Even Link has to get a few unusual moves. Not to mention Zelda. And Sheik. And Peach. Etc.

Movesets absolutely need to be coherent and can't just be random canon moves. They need to flow right. This is something Ganondorf always did.

Also, what weapon? You mean the weapon he didn't pick up outside of WW, his own swords, and the Sword of Sages he stole from someone trying to execute him from it? He doesn't have an actual regular canon sword like Link does. Being a swordsman is just one of his many traits. Him overpowering others is a huge thing for his characterization, and having the de facto highest strength in a fighting game, which lets him overpower others, is a very strong representation of who he is.

Lastly, keep in mind the main Zelda trio(so not Sheik, really) heavily represent their Triforce pieces based more around what the series is. Link is Courage, able to handle any weapon and various tools. Zelda is Wisdom, and has always been a primary magic user. Ganondorf is Power, who does it in various ways, but mostly was able to push everybody around easily due to his immense strength, something shown way more with TP Beast Ganon(who, fyi, isn't a primary magic design, but a physical brute). Using a thin sword that is about finesse, not power strikes, wouldn't even work well. His only move is a simple stab with it in Smash. It's not a huge sword like the one in the GC Tech Demo, which fits Ganondorf better. His actual sword usage was never "power" so much as technique. He only used brute strength and some magical moves otherwise to show off his power. This isn't even counting Ganon in OOT, who is a boss that is mostly physically assaulting you, using hard-hitting swords. Ike is basically what Ganondorf needs to be akin to to represent Power as a Swordsman(not the same moveset, but more the same style of extremely strong strikes, something he does in Smash as a clone anyway). He doesn't actually use his Swords in any way to represent Power in the canon games. Only HW, which explicitly even uses Smash Bros. moves like Warlock Punch, further showing that magical brutish attacks are still a valid interpretation of him(never mind his Flame Choke is a canon move based upon stuff he did in WW and TP. He can and will physically assault others. He absolutely punches. The only real point to consider is that he's not much of a kicker, but to pretend he doesn't go punching around his enemies is completely wrong).

But why can't he just have hard hitting moves with swords? I understand your point about magic, although I think magic can be done in a way that feels powerful, but just because he uses technique doesn't mean he can't have hard hitting moves like Ike. Ike didn't feel hard hitting at all in PoR but it worked in smash.

Not to mention Ganondorfs were already some of the hardest hitting attacks in zelda. And there's absolutely no reason to think his moves wouldn't flow if he used a sword. Most characters are based off animations from their games and they flow fine.

Maybe he throws a punch here and there, but his primary weapon is usually a sword. And they could just swap what his sword looks like just like the rest of his design. Use the oot sword in melee, and the tp sword in brawl and beyond. Simple as that.

As far as the stolen sword, I really don't see the issue. His sword was gone obviously because he had been captured and they don't let prisoners keep their weapons, so he killed a sage and took one. Is that really so untrue to his character that it would be weird to have in smash? If anything it fits his origin as king of the gerudo thieves.

I'm not sure how handling multiple weapons represents courage. I think it just represents link like swords and magic represents ganondorf. I think you need to replay the oot Ganondorf fight because he was not a fist fighter. Not even a little bit. The one attack people point to as a punch is the shockwave, which is mainly a magic attack and is also not in smash.

Finally, if ganondorf is portrayed as using mainly magic and swords in zelda, how is it sakurai's place to say "nah, that doesn't represent this character well" and change how he fights to fit his opinion? He has gone on record saying that he does his best to faithfully recreate characters like they are in their game. If ganondorf using swords and magic means he doesn't represent power then I guess the Zelda developers don't want him to represent power. It's not sakurai's place to change that.

Ganondorf is first and foremost considered an evil wizard, and he uses swords primarily as well. He does not punch link in Zelda, so why should he punch him in smash? And maybe if you stretched it you could make the argument that he should have half of his moves be punching and kicking, but it doesn't excuse having no sword or magic at all.

And this is meaningless anyway because there's no reason he would be based on captain falcon if he was new in brawl anymore than girahim would be based on marth or Greninja would be a sheik clone, even if he was for some reason given a punch based movesets. Thank you for giving me a real argument though.

 

[SvartWolf]

whats this? i can spam a main smash thread with Castlevania music.... and be ON TOPIC?

ive dreamed more than ten years to this day...

Let me savour this while it lasts

 

[ColietheGoalie]

I don't get why they would use "anime" to single stuff like FE and Xenoblade out. Doesn't Pokemon have one of the longest-running animes ever, with many of its characters being designed in "anime" styles? Or even Zelda, which can exude some "anime" tropes and designs at times.

Also, why is it bad? Are they against a very generalized art-style? None of the "anime" characters in Smash really exhibit the bad tropes of "anime" (other than stuff in Corrin's originating game, but that's a whole other deal.)

Honestly, it seems like a scapegoat argument for people that are mad that their franchises didn't get as many reps as they wanted.

I think the “anime” complaint is just a badly expressed wish for less humanoid characters. Hence why Pokemon doesn’t get roped into it despite actually having anime tie-ins.

Japanese heros with silly hair and swords popped up a fair bit in Smash4, and I think people are just yearning for more creative, interesting archetypes.

 

[osby]

I think the “anime” complaint is just a badly expressed wish for less humanoid characters. Hence why Pokemon doesn’t get roped into it despite actually having anime tie-ins.

Japanese heros with silly hair and swords popped up a fair bit in Smash4, and I think people are just yearning for more creative, interesting archetypes.

Well, it's hard to do something about the Japanese part, except Diddy Kong. Apart from that, I really wouldn't put most of them in the same archetype. But if we are talking about "hero with sword" as a more broad one, yeah, most of them were like that.

But only ones with really silly hair were Cloud and Corrin.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Simon Belmet? I am not a Castalvania guy, but I can see people's reasoning..
I mean I heard his early games were popular, and was on a Nintendo console.

Also it seems people are forgetting one Pokemon that can potentially be in Smash...
View attachment 145134

Tapu Koko would be pretty cool, actually. I can see how it might be able to utilize both electric and fairy-type attacks, as well as Guardian of Alola for its Final Smash.
Only thing is, if it's gotten a following already, it's already butting heads with, like, a dozen other Pokemon (cut from previous games, Sceptile, Decidueye, Eevee, etc.). I suppose it doesn't hurt to speculate, though.