Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[MopedOfJustice]

If Simon Belmont is in Smash, PLEASE avoid using his awful Castlevania Judgement design.

Or anything from Judgement period.

I dunno, Judgement is pretty impressive. Remember how people were talking about Pyra's design not having anything interesting about it because it was too busy with sex? For Shanoa's design in Judgement, they managed to make it both less appealing and less interesting at the same time:

Spoiler

But who hasn't picked up a bad habit after being caught up in initial success?

 

[Pacack]

By that it is equally selfish to celebrate a characters inclusion that someone else didn't want. That's just semantics. The topic is clearly whether or not it is moral to not want a character, or at least that's what it seemed to me.

While I'm hesitant to say anything regarding the degree of selfishness, as that isn't really quantifiable, it is true that both cases are selfish.

I was not attempting to imply anything other than what I said, which is that the desire is selfish.

I hope this doesn't sound condescending, but please clearly articulate the position you are debating.

You and @Arcadenik agree that the position is selfish. That was what Arcadenik was saying. The moral implications of that selfishness are different altogether from whether it is or is not a selfish position.

You were arguing side B of topic B while he was arguing side A of topic A. Clearly, no conclusion can be made until the two of you are debating the same point.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

I dunno, Judgement is pretty impressive. Remember how people were talking about Pyra's design not having anything interesting about it because it was too busy with sex? For Shanoa's design in Judgement, they managed to make it both less appealing and less interesting at the same time:

Spoiler

But who hasn't picked up a bad habit after being caught up in initial success?

The only good redesigns in the game were Cornell and Carmilla to a lesser extent.

The others plain sucked.

 

[MarioMeteor]

If Simon Belmont is in Smash, PLEASE avoid using his awful Castlevania Judgement design.

Or anything from Judgement period.

If we were to get a Belmont in Smash, I’d rather it be Richter because he’s objectively the best Belmont and if you disagree you’re wrong because he has a lot more moveset potential with all of the athletic **** he can do in his various appearances.

 

[Originality]

While I'm hesitant to say anything regarding the degree of selfishness, as that isn't really quantifiable, it is true that both cases are selfish.

I was not attempting to imply anything other than what I said, which is that the desire is selfish.

I hope this doesn't sound condescending, but please clearly articulate the position you are debating.

You and @Arcadenik agree that the position is selfish. That was what Arcadenik was saying. The moral implications of that selfishness are different altogether from whether it is or is not a selfish position.

You were arguing side B of topic B while he was arguing side A of topic A. Clearly, no conclusion can be made until the two of you are debating the same point.

Noted for the future. Thank you for your input, along with anyone else who had things to say.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Only thing Judgment had going for it was the remixes and if Simon is in Smash, chances are he'll get new mixes.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Wanna throw a wrench in this discussion....morals/ethics/whatever aside I don't see the logic in "If X character doesn't get in than Y character has a better chance". Like I get the literal effect that if Dixie Kong was deconfirmed there would be less Donkey Kong characters in the running but that doesn't literally give King K. Rool or anyone a chance. That's working off the idea that Sakurai views character inclusions by series reps which is a faulty way of thinking.

 

[Pacack]

Question, all.

We all know that Mario is an extremely popular series, but I'm not sure if we've discussed the implications of that for the ballot.

Is it possible that a character who we often dismiss like Waluigi/Toad/Daisy was voted for highly on the ballot? If so, could that affect our newcomer selection?

 

[Pazzo.]

Wait, preferring your favorite choices to the expense of others is selfish?

What sort of fresh tripe is this?

Let's just get back to Smash, thanks.

(Edit: pretend like I posted this a page back.)

 

[One winged Devil]

Someone told me something really messed up when I said that I wanted Ridley as a playable character, people need to remember that you can disagree with someone without being an asshole about it.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

If Simon Belmont is in Smash, PLEASE avoid using his awful Castlevania Judgement design.

Or anything from Judgement period.

What's wrong with that design that everyone keeps complaining about it?

Do people just really like to pretend to be super outraged every time a video game character gets a new design just because it's drastically different and they see everyone else acting outraged?

 

[FrostyPlayZ]

Nintendo made an announcement! Smash For the Switch Invitational Tournament will be in LA featuring Armada, Plup, Lucky, Mang0, MkLeo, Abadango, Mr.R, and ZeRo! This will be after ths splatton 2 world championship on June 12! For more information go to e3.nintendo.com it will be live streamed and I AM SO EXCITED. So make your bets on characters because they will be revealed soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

What's wrong with that design that everyone keeps complaining about it?

Do people just really like to pretend to be super outraged every time a video game character gets a new design just because it's drastically different and they see everyone else acting outraged?

This is coming from a fan of Death Note and I think the artists’ interpretations of the characters don’t even do it nor feel right. And don’t get me started on the horrible characterization either (Maria having breast envy is the dumbest character trait they gave her).

There’s a reason why most Castlevania fans didn't like anything about that game.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Question, all.

We all know that Mario is an extremely popular series, but I'm not sure if we've discussed the implications of that for the ballot.

Is it possible that a character who we often dismiss like Waluigi/Toad/Daisy was voted for highly on the ballot? If so, could that affect our newcomer selection?

Possibly. At any rate I wouldn't be that surprised.

 

[Sigran101]

I think deep down that Ganonorf being the representation of Power is beyond fitting.

There you go. Honestly, this is going in circles and I do not accept it poorly fits him at all. I understand the want of his magic moves from OOT, or a weapon. I get it too. I at one point wanted him to heavily use his sword. That changed when I not only played as him heavily in Brawl(not just Melee), but I looked into how his moveset uses animations from TP. That said, the only move I feel that makes little sense is Wizard's Foot. It just doesn't seem like a move he'd do. An extreme strong magical punch is believable, at least. Dark Dive arguably is an issue too.

How does using swords and magic make him not represent power? Power =/= punching and kicking. It's not like that is what makes him powerful. Does shiek represent power more than Ike? Because shiek uses punches and kicks and Ike only uses a sword. Ganondorf can be just as strong and use a frickin sword. This argument literally makes zero sense. And Ganondorf using the falcon punch does not make sense just because you can picture him doing it. I could see Link punching and kicking too. That doesn't mean a punching based movesets would be reasonable for him, and it certainly doesn't mean he should have that over his weapons. That's silly. So what if ganondorf has a punch or kick here and there in tp? Why does that mean his primary weapon, the one he actually uses when you fight him, should be taken away? That's like saying link should have a sumo wrestling based moveset because he did that in tp too.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

This is coming from a fan of Death Note and I think the artists’ interpretations of the characters don’t even do it nor feel right. And don’t get me started on the horrible characterization either (Maria having breast envy is the dumbest character trait they gave her).

There’s a reason why most Castlevania fans didn't like anything about that game.

I think this demonstrates my main issue with people complaining about character designs. They act like its really obvious and self evident and the justification is so vague.

"It doesn't feel right."
"Don't get me started on how horrible it is."
"There's a reason most people don't like it."

 

[Guybrush20X6]

What's wrong with that design that everyone keeps complaining about it?

Do people just really like to pretend to be super outraged every time a video game character gets a new design just because it's drastically different and they see everyone else acting outraged?

Compare and contrast

Simon's Classic Looks

Spoiler: Classic Looks

Barbarian

Knight-ish

These are the two main looks people think of when Simon is brought up.

The problem however, isn't that Judgment Simon isn't them, by nature of being more... boyish. The problem is the look has been done better by Komani themselves.

Contrast Simon from his last canon appearance (in Classic timeline) from Castlevania Chronicles

to this...

The word overdesigned comes to mind.
Or that the designer was told he dresses in all leather and no-one clarrified that it was leather he'd have likely tanned himself.

P.S. The last Simon from the Lords Trilogy

Spoiler: Dat Beard

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

I think this demonstrates my main issue with people complaining about character designs. They act like its really obvious and self evident and the justification is so vague.

"It doesn't feel right."
"Don't get me started on how horrible it is."
"There's a reason most people don't like it."

Compare the Judgement design to Simon’s other designs. Does it look like a vampire hunter to you? Even other users previously pointed out how badly designed it is. He looks like Light Yagami in BDS&M Gear.

You can say that the new designs for Castlevania Judgement are excusable, but Maria Renard’s story mode being all about how she is jealous of the size of Carmilla and Sypha’s ***s is inexcusable. Try actually watching cutscenes and playing the game to see why it’s considered the Bomberman Act Zero of Castlevania.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Compare and contrast

Simon's Classic Looks

Spoiler: Classic Looks

Barbarian

Knight-ish

These are the two main looks people think of when Simon is brought up.

What's wrong with that design that everyone keeps complaining about it?

Do people just really like to pretend to be super outraged every time a video game character gets a new design just because it's drastically different and they see everyone else acting outraged?

Once again. It's just "Look at this design. And then look at that design. See how they are not the same. That's bad."

 

[MopedOfJustice]

How does using swords and magic make him not represent power? Power =/= punching and kicking. It's not like that is what makes him powerful. Does shiek represent power more than Ike? Because shiek uses punches and kicks and Ike only uses a sword. Ganondorf can be just as strong and use a frickin sword. This argument literally makes zero sense. And Ganondorf using the falcon punch does not make sense just because you can picture him doing it. I could see Link punching and kicking too. That doesn't mean a punching based movesets would be reasonable for him, and it certainly doesn't mean he should have that over his weapons. That's silly. So what if ganondorf has a punch or kick here and there in tp? Why does that mean his primary weapon, the one he actually uses when you fight him, should be taken away? That's like saying link should have a sumo wrestling based moveset because he did that in tp too.

I believe part of the case here is that his use of weapons/magic has been inconsistent between games while, in both of the relevant incarnations, attacking with his hands has been present.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Compare the Judgement design to Simon’s other designs.

"It's different, therefore it's bad."

Does it look like a vampire hunter to you?

Yes. Does the old one?

Even other users previously pointed out how badly designed it is. He looks like Light Yagami in BDS&M Gear.

"It's bad because everyone else thinks it's bad too.

You can say that the new designs for Castlevania Judgement are excusable, but Maria Renard’s story mode being all about how she is jealous of the size of Carmilla and Sypha’s ***s is inexcusable. Try actually watching cutscenes and playing the game to see why it’s considered the Bomberman Act Zero of Castlevania.

I'm not taking about personality and story.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Once again. It's just "Look at this design. And then look at that design. See how they are not the same. That's bad."

Added more clarifiation while editing.

To repeat, that his shiny leathers make him looks more like he's from a boy band than a woodland hunter type character, out to hunt the deadliest beast of all.
Like the designer was told he dressed in leather without asking what kind of leather. (in this case, tanned hides)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

How does using swords and magic make him not represent power? Power =/= punching and kicking. It's not like that is what makes him powerful. Does shiek represent power more than Ike? Because shiek uses punches and kicks and Ike only uses a sword. Ganondorf can be just as strong and use a frickin sword. This argument literally makes zero sense. And Ganondorf using the falcon punch does not make sense just because you can picture him doing it. I could see Link punching and kicking too. That doesn't mean a punching based movesets would be reasonable for him, and it certainly doesn't mean he should have that over his weapons. That's silly. So what if ganondorf has a punch or kick here and there in tp? Why does that mean his primary weapon, the one he actually uses when you fight him, should be taken away? That's like saying link should have a sumo wrestling based moveset because he did that in tp too.

Because power is about physical prowess, not magic alone. It doesn't "show power". Power is about being near untouchable(like with super armor), sending people flying. Power is basically Strength.

No, moves makes sense because one can picture them doing it. Otherwise most movesets wouldn't work. If it has to fix what the character can potentially do. Ganondorf himself has very few canon moves to draw from to make a full moveset, unlike, say, Mario, who has most moves covered. Even Link has to get a few unusual moves. Not to mention Zelda. And Sheik. And Peach. Etc.

Movesets absolutely need to be coherent and can't just be random canon moves. They need to flow right. This is something Ganondorf always did.

Also, what weapon? You mean the weapon he didn't pick up outside of WW, his own swords, and the Sword of Sages he stole from someone trying to execute him from it? He doesn't have an actual regular canon sword like Link does. Being a swordsman is just one of his many traits. Him overpowering others is a huge thing for his characterization, and having the de facto highest strength in a fighting game, which lets him overpower others, is a very strong representation of who he is.

Lastly, keep in mind the main Zelda trio(so not Sheik, really) heavily represent their Triforce pieces based more around what the series is. Link is Courage, able to handle any weapon and various tools. Zelda is Wisdom, and has always been a primary magic user. Ganondorf is Power, who does it in various ways, but mostly was able to push everybody around easily due to his immense strength, something shown way more with TP Beast Ganon(who, fyi, isn't a primary magic design, but a physical brute). Using a thin sword that is about finesse, not power strikes, wouldn't even work well. His only move is a simple stab with it in Smash. It's not a huge sword like the one in the GC Tech Demo, which fits Ganondorf better. His actual sword usage was never "power" so much as technique. He only used brute strength and some magical moves otherwise to show off his power. This isn't even counting Ganon in OOT, who is a boss that is mostly physically assaulting you, using hard-hitting swords. Ike is basically what Ganondorf needs to be akin to to represent Power as a Swordsman(not the same moveset, but more the same style of extremely strong strikes, something he does in Smash as a clone anyway). He doesn't actually use his Swords in any way to represent Power in the canon games. Only HW, which explicitly even uses Smash Bros. moves like Warlock Punch, further showing that magical brutish attacks are still a valid interpretation of him(never mind his Flame Choke is a canon move based upon stuff he did in WW and TP. He can and will physically assault others. He absolutely punches. The only real point to consider is that he's not much of a kicker, but to pretend he doesn't go punching around his enemies is completely wrong).

 

[PSIguy89]

As much as I’ve enjoyed CJ’s gameplay, I do agree that they went a little overboard when redesigning the characters. The guys a great artist, but I don’t think Castlevania is his best work haha

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Added more clarifiation while editing.

To repeat, that his shiny leathers make him looks more like he's from a boy band than a woodland hunter type character, out to hunt the deadliest beast of all.
Like the designer was told he dressed in leather without asking what kind of leather. (in this case, tanned hides)

I mean, I could just go to his original design and go "Look at Simon Belmont. He looks more like a stripper than a vampire hunter"

 

[MopedOfJustice]

The thing I find really interesting is that the Judgement design is distinctly sexualized, but it's not extremely sexualized, and yet it is met with round disapproval on the basis of things like it not making sense or being tacky/tasteless.
But it's still much milder than the outfits of female characters that nonetheless get defended. I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to push a feminist agenda, it's just that sexualized male designs almost never get brought up as far as I've seen and I think it's notable.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Fact of the matter is, Sakurai would go for the most well received design for Simon than one from a hated spinoff.

Classic > Chronicles > Lords of Shadow > Judgement

Samus was the exception since well, Other M was unfortunately Samus’s most recent design in a Metroid game.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I mean, I could just go to his original design and go "Look at Simon Belmont. He looks more like a stripper than a vampire hunter"

I think you're being deliberately obtuse at this point.

And for the record, his original design looks like a Conan the Barbarian cosplayer.

 

[PSIguy89]

Quite frankly I was never a huge fan of Simons OG look, but i ADORE his look in that mobile game, it’s the perfect splice between classic and the more modern designs

 

[One winged Devil]

The thing I find really interesting is that the Judgement design is distinctly sexualized, but it's not extremely sexualized, and yet it is met with round disapproval on the basis of things like it not making sense or being tacky/tasteless.
But it's still much milder than the outfits of female characters that nonetheless get defended. I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to push a feminist agenda, it's just that sexualized male designs almost never get brought up as far as I've seen and I think it's notable.

Sexual Male designs aren't the same has Females.

Unlike you I actually push my feminist agenda when needed.

 

[Bowserlick]

All this stripper talk. Simon Belmont better have Palutena's pole taunt.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

On a tangent of questionable past designs, who's up for Classic Jumpman?

 

[Deleted member]

If Simon Belmont is in Smash, PLEASE avoid using his awful Castlevania Judgement design.

Or anything from Judgement period.

>Acklownoedging anything from Judgement in General.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

On a tangent of questionable past designs, who's up for Classic Jumpman?

Discount Popeye.

Still better than Classic Ice Climbers

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Sexual Male designs aren't the same has Females.

Would you care to explain the difference here as it's relevant to our naughty vampire hunter?

 

[Bowserlick]

Simon Belmont holding out a cross for an 'A' attack or tilt and burning Mario and the like with it would be hilarious.

 

[kylexv]

Back to Lycanroc for a moment. I just came up with a crazy idea.
*puts on tinfoil hat*

Maybe Dusk Lycanroc's design is so similar to Midday Lycanroc because Sakurai already decided on using Lycanroc for Smash before Game Freak made the Dusk form and Sakurai and Game Freak didn't want to change the entire moveset to accommodate the new form

*removes tinfoil hat*

 

[Zerp]

Speaking of Ganondorf and movesets, I've always thought giving Ganondorf the Project M treatment with the reflecting cape/float + sword as a taunt attack that functions as Warlock Punch, and then also additionally replacing the Warlock Kick with those energy balls he uses in dead man's volley would do him wonders, he'd represent more kinds of his magic now just like people want him to, without sacrificing much from his current moveset and it's portrayal of his brutal nature. What do you all think?

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Back to Lycanroc for a moment. I just came up with a crazy idea.
*puts on tinfoil hat*

Maybe Dusk Lycanroc's design is so similar to Midday Lycanroc because Sakurai already decided on using Lycanroc for Smash before Game Freak made the Dusk form and Sakurai and Game Freak didn't want to change the entire moveset to accommodate the new form

*removes tinfoil hat*

Possible but I more get the feeling that the higher ups declared that the game devs have to play nice with their little brothers in the anime writing department and make their cool new ideas part of the world.

Something like

Devs: We've got a day form, like a traditional wolf and a night form that evokes the image of a werewolf
ANIME: And Ash's is so special it's one that's half way between them!
Devs: ... Designs for three legged wolfs? Any ideas?

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Speaking of Ganondorf and movesets, I've always thought giving Ganondorf the Project M treatment with the reflecting cape/float + sword as a taunt attack that functions as Warlock Punch, and then also additionally replacing the Warlock Kick with those energy balls he uses in dead man's volley would do him wonders, he'd represent more kinds of his magic now just like people want him to, without sacrificing much from his current moveset and it's portrayal of his brutal nature. What do you all think?

I don't have an issue with him having a magic trick or two necessarily, but that float is horribly janky and fits OoT Ganon better anyway. It's actually my least favorite thing in the entire game.
The cape flip is weird, but it's not as bad. If I could change it, and we were pretending it was OoT Ganon, I'd make it fire a projectile and then only reflect while the projectile is in the world, like Villager's tree making him act differently. Also it would be down special because Warlock Punch is great.