Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Arcadenik]

Star Fox Grand Prix? Wonder if Nintendo will bring back Krystal for this game...

 

[T-Donor66]

Anyone have any Smash 5 related dreams yet? I dream’t that I was at Target on release day to buy the new game, and my friend showed me a gameplay trailer where Mewtwo and Mario had a bunch of new moves! And then I woke up, and was slapped with the reality that i still have to wait many more months till it actually releases.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

By the way, has anyone brought up the new Star Fox leak?

Spoiler

Sounds crazy, but nothing would surprise me after Mario+Rabbids. Although I must admit, if this turns out to be real, then I'll be a little confused as to why Nintendo chose Star Fox over F-Zero. Sounds like the perfect game needed to revive a dead franchise.

I don't know. At the very least, this could help Wolf get in Smash as DLC if he somehow misses the base roster.

If this is real than the trio of Star Fox characters are as relevant as ever and all have a decent shot to make the game whether it be on the base roster or as DLC.

Not gonna lie I'm gonna be pissed if we get this instead of a brand new game from Platinum, hopefully we're getting a proper game too and this is just a bonus

You mean Retro? Supposedly they're the ones working on this game. The Platinum thing that came out today suggests they are making a completely new action game with no relation to this.

 

[Murlough]

That is definitely not true. Moveset-wise Marth and Roy shares the same:

• Down Tilt
• Up Smash
• Down Smash
• Neutral Aerial
• Forward Aerial
• Back Aerial
• Up Aerial
• Throws
• Side B
• Down B

In contrast, Marth and Ike only shares the same Down B and down smash.

Absolutely incorrect. You're taking things at face-value (poorly at that).

Roy's unique close-ranged sword mechanic is the complete reverse of Marth's tipper mechanic. In melee this wasn't enough for him to be any more than a basic Marth Clone.

In 4 they overhauled him but I'll get to that after I'm done countering each of those moves he "copied" from Marth.

Spoiler

Down-tilt I can't disagree with. Its basically the same except for the opposite "tipper" effect.

Up-Smash is wrong. Roy's upsmash is a multihit attack and lacks the hitbox Marth has that pulls the opponent from the ground into it. This isn't even taking into consideration the reverse tippers. The moves are fundamentally different...they just look like.

Down-Smash is basically the same. Pretty sure Marth's is faster but don't feel like looking up the frame data to be certain. Reverse tipper still applies. Ike's downsmash is not the same as either of theirs.

Neutral Aerial is another case of "it looks alike" but isn't the same. Marth's is a quick attack meant to keep opponents out primarily and the second hit doesn't (or rarely) combos into anything. Roy's Nair is his best combo tool both the first and second hits. Not the same.

Forward Aerial doesn't even look the same. Do you think Corrin's and Ike's Fair a clone of Marth's too?

Roy's back air jablocks. Marth's does not. Also potentially framedata differences. Opposite tippers.

Up Aerial isn't the same just similar. I'm repeating too much so skip~

Their only common throw is upthrow. All the others work fundamentally differently. Marth has no combo throw. Roy can combo out of forward throw and rarely down throw. Just because they look alike does not mean they are the same.

Grounded Side-B I can see an argument for even if the tippers make the move function differently (Roy's is worse). Aerial Side-B no. Marth's helps him rise in the air which has several uses. Roy continues to fall and the angle is different.

The counters work differently even if they are counters. Roy's counter is much easier to kill off of because of his much larger "tipper."

What really sets apart Roy and Marth is how their respective kits come together, not every individaul move in a vaccuum. Roy supports a much more aggressive style that puts him constantly in the opponents face. Marth wants to be an arm's reach away from the opponent at all times.

One is a Zoner. One plays more like Captain Falcon with a sword. Just because they look similar does not mean they are the same.

Roy is just as different from Marth as Falco to Fox, Lucas to Ness, and Luigi is to Mario. If they aren't straight up clones in 4 then neither is Roy.

Edit: Man I thoroughly butchered this formatting.

EDIT: FIXED. HATE FORMATTING. HATE IT ALOT.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Do Sony Microsoft even

If this is real than the trio of Star Fox characters are as relevant as ever and all have a decent shot to make the game whether it be on the base roster or as DLC.

You mean Retro? Supposedly they're the ones working on this game. The Platinum thing that came out today suggests they are making a completely new action game with no relation to this.

I'd hope platinum would be doing the main game while this remains a side game by retro, the last thing star fox needs is more switching developers, and it's not like platinum hasn't handled multiple games at once before

Absolutely incorrect. You're taking at things (poorly) at face-value.

Roy's unique close-ranged sword mechanic is the complete reverse of Marth's tipper mechanic. In melee this wasn't enough for him to be any more than a basic Marth Clone.

In 4 they overhauled him but I'll get to that after I'm done countering each of those moves he "copied" from Marth.

Down-tilt I can't disagree with. Its basically the same except for the opposite "tipper" effect.

Up-Smash is wrong. Roy's upsmash is a multihit attack and lacks the hitbox Marth has that pulls the opponent from the ground into it. This isn't even taking into consideration the reverse tippers. The moves are fundamentally different...they just look like.

Down-Smash is basically the same. Pretty sure Marth's is faster but don't feel like looking up the frame data to be certain. Reverse tipper still applies. Ike's downsmash is not the same as either of theirs.

Neutral Aerial is another case of "it looks alike" but isn't the same. Marth's is a quick attack meant to keep opponents out primarily and the second hit doesn't (or rarely) combos into anything. Roy's Nair is his best combo tool both the first and second hits. Not the same.

Forward Aerial doesn't even look the same. Do you think Corrin's and Ike's Fair a clone of Marth's too?

Roy's back air jablocks. Marth's does not. Also potentially framedata differences. Opposite tippers.

Up Aerial isn't the same just similar. I'm repeating too much so skip~

Their only common throw is upthrow. All the others work fundamentally differently. Marth has no combo throw. Roy can combo out of forward throw and rarely down throw. Just because they look alike does not mean they are the same.

Grounded Side-B I can see an argument for even if the tippers make the move function differently (Roy's is worse). Aerial Side-B no. Marth's helps him rise in the air which has several uses. Roy continues to fall and the angle is different.

The counters work differently even if they are counters. Roy's counter is much easier to kill off of because of his much larger "tipper."

What really sets apart Roy and Marth is how their respective kits come together, not every move in a vaccuum. Roy supports a much mire aggressive style that puts him constantly in the opponents face. Marth wants to be an arm's reach away from the opponent at all times.

One is a Zoner. One plays more like Captain Falcon with a sword. Just because they look similar does not mean they are the same.

Roy is just as different from Marth as Falco to Fox, Lucas to Ness, and Luigi is to Mario. If they aren't straight up clones in 4 then neither is Roy.

Changing some of a moves attributes doesn't really make it a different move tho, most of them still share the same animation and stuff despite that.

 

[Murlough]

Changing some of a moves attributes doesn't really make it a different move tho, most of them still share the same animation and stuff despite that.

Read the last 3 paragraphs, at least, thats kinda where my main point lies. The only reason I went over the moves like that was because the one guy said those are specifically the same, which I made a counter-argument for.

Anyway, yes they do.

What the move does and how it does it is what makes a move a move. Animation is only a tiny part of it. And most of Roy's moves do have different animations. Roy's fair and Marth's fair are similar but are not the same animation.

 

[SquashiniKun]

Anyone can throw together a logo and waste some printer ink on it.

Spoiler: If I can throw this together in three minutes, someone with some actual time could do that in about ten

If I can shoddily throw this together in three minutes, someone with a bit of effort could make that leak in the exact same amount of time.
View attachment 144355

Will that game have Bart Simpson as a guest character?

Cookies for anyone can guess what i'm referencing.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Read the last 3 paragraphs at least thats kinda where my main points lie. The only reason I went over the moves like that was because the one guy said they specifically the same, which I made a counter-argument for.

Anyway, yes they do.

What the move does and how it does it is what makes a move a move. Animation is only a tiny part of it. And most of Roy's moves do have different animations. Roy's fair and Marth's fair are similar but are not the same animation.

Still, the moves act differently but they're still variations on marth's moves, they took marth's moveset as a base and changed various aspects of it, hence the semi-clone title

 

[Murlough]

Still, the moves act differently but they're still variations on marth's moves, they took marth's moveset as a base and changed various aspects of it, hence the semi-clone title

So we agree then, don't we? He's arguing they are not as different as Lucas-Ness or Luigi-Mario. I'm trying to tell him that they are that different.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

So we agree then, don't we? He's arguing they are not as different as Lucas-Ness or Luigi-Mario. I'm trying to tell him that they are that different.

They're different but not nearly as different as Ike is from Marth which you were implying beforehand. Roy is still a clone since he was built off of marth and they still share a lot, Ike wasn't

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Animation is only a tiny part of it.

From a production standpoint, animation is nearly the entirety of what makes a character a clone or not. Clones can play very differently and there can be a character with completely different animations who plays more similarly to the base character than the clone does, but for the purpose of talking about roster additions, Roy is very much a clone.

 

[Chandeelure]

Did you guys talk about this?

https://gonintendo.com/stories/309022-nintendo-grabs-trademarks-for-f-zero-pikmin-sin-punishment-s

 

[Murlough]

They're different but not nearly as different as Ike is from Marth which you were implying beforehand.

I could, almost literally, use his and your exact arguments and make a case for Ike being a clone of Marth.

What do you think Ike's neutral special is based on? Roy's Flare Blade from Melee. Ike's Fair? Thats got the same animation as Marth's! Ike's counter is exactly the same as Marth's!

Yes, objectively speaking Roy is more of a clone to Marth than Ike. I was incorrect for saying that. I could still use yall's arguments for why Roy is the same as Marth and apply plenty of them to Ike though. Thats what I'm trying to get at.

I just need to say "look up someone playing in tournament with Roy then look up someone playing Marth in tournament," and then go to do something productive next time this comes up.

From a production standpoint, animation is nearly the entirety of what makes a character a clone or not. Clones can play very differently and there can be a character with completely different animations who plays more similarly to the base character than the clone does, but for the purpose of talking about roster additions, Roy is very much a clone.

*inhales deeply* So, a semi-clone just like Luigi, Lucas, and Falco as I have been saying the entire time.

Also it does take quite a bit of time to deal with hitboxes and framedata. Theres a reason balance isn't always easy or quick. The changes made to Roy may not be adding a completely new character but it is still a far cry from adding Lucina. There is a very large difference here and I have no clue how yall can't see that.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

From a production standpoint, animation is nearly the entirety of what makes a character a clone or not. Clones can play very differently and there can be a character with completely different animations who plays more similarly to the base character than the clone does, but for the purpose of talking about roster additions, Roy is very much a clone.

Exactly. And this is how Smash Bros. clones are made. Yes, Roy is still a clone. He's been updated and changed up to be less of one. Wolf is still a clone, but also wasn't nearly as much as even Jigglypuff was in 64(who obviously was heavily changed, but still shares animations with Kirby to make her very easy to put in the game).

The animations are pretty much the bread and butter. Now, how they first became a clone can have different reasons. But it does remain that the animations are swapped onto another character, and this is a good chunk of their moveset in many cases. Others are more a semi-clone by retooling the moveset but making them feel immensely different. It's just varying degrees of clone.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I could, almost literally, use his and your exact arguments and make a case for Ike being a clone of Marth.

What do you think Ike's neutral special is based on? Roy's Flare Blade from Melee. Ike's Fair? Thats got the same animation as Marth's! Ike's counter is exactly the same as Marth's!

Yes, objectively speaking Roy is more of a clone to Marth than Ike. I was incorrect for saying that. I could still use yall's arguments for why Roy is the same as Marth and apply plenty of them to Ike though. Thats what I'm trying to get at.

I just need to say "look up someone playing in tournament with Roy then look up someone playing Marth in tournament," and then go to do something productive next time this comes up.

But not really, Ike and Marth have similar down smashes and forward airs but both moves have completely different animations as well as properties, the moves are very much different. I'll give you roy's forward air since that has a different animation in addition to it's properties but down smash still shares it's animation. Those are the only similarities Marth and Ike have and those are still stretches. Every other move and every other animation is different between them, all the attacking, movement, items, ledge, jumping etc etc animations are completely different while Roy shares those with Marth.

 

[Murlough]

But not really, Ike and Marth have similar down smashes and forward airs but both moves have completely different animations as well as properties, the moves are very much different. I'll give you roy's forward air since that has a different animation in addition to it's properties but down smash still shares it's animation. Those are the only similarities Marth and Ike have and those are still stretches. Every other move and every other animation is different between them, all the attacking, movement, items, ledge, jumping etc etc animations are completely different while Roy shares those with Marth.

So, the properties of a move only matter when you are attempting to counter my argument then?

Roy's Fsmash, Up-B, Neutral B, Up-tilt, Side-tilt, Jab, and Upair have unique animations. On top of the amount of visuals, the time spent dealing with frame data and Roy's unique properties:weight, fallspeed, how his grabs work, his unique tipper mechanic, amongst other things I'm sure I missed went in to differentiate Roy from Marth. Oh yeah, and Roy's unique properties on every ****in' move in his entire kit that I already mentioned. ARGGHHHH!

You are focusing on one of several aspects here, whilst saying my points are insufficient until its convenient for you to say the same thing. Roy is 1/3 a clone at worst. You already said you agree that he is a semi-clone and I admitted I was wrong about the Ike thing so why are you even continuing?

Exactly. And this is how Smash Bros. clones are made. Yes, Roy is still a clone. He's been updated and changed up to be less of one. Wolf is still a clone, but also wasn't nearly as much as even Jigglypuff was in 64(who obviously was heavily changed, but still shares animations with Kirby to make her very easy to put in the game).

The animations are pretty much the bread and butter. Now, how they first became a clone can have different reasons. But it does remain that the animations are swapped onto another character, and this is a good chunk of their moveset in many cases. Others are more a semi-clone by retooling the moveset but making them feel immensely different. It's just varying degrees of clone.

Please send me the source that says 90% of effort put into a Smash character is the animation. Until then I'm gonna ignore it. Find me the link and you got me there.

Yes, it does specifically need to be Smash or 3D fighting game related. 2D fighters like Blazblue and older Street Fighter titles absolutely took forever to animation. 3D takes far less time which is why Street Fighter converted.

Ok, so how exactly can you say Falco is not a clone of Fox, but a semi-clone while also saying Roy is just a clone of Marth. Lucina is a clone in the way you are describing. Every single thing about her besides her height (which almost never actually matters) and her tipperless blade are exactly the same as Marth's.

Roy has had significant work put into him to make it so he isn't just "Fire Marth." Honestly, it feels kind of disrespectful to disregard the effort put in so easily, and I didn't even work on it.

"Others are more a semi-clone by retooling the moveset but making them feel immensely different." Alright, so....EXACTLY LIKE ROY.

THE TWO DON'T FEEL EVEN CLOSE TO THE SAME IN GAME WHAT THE HECK MAN.

 

[The Original Robot boy]

I really hope Clones comeback i feel they a big part of smash

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Nintendo filed several new trademarks, starting with a Smash Logo.

https://mobile.twitter.com/trademark_bot/status/996151177099333637

I don't think these mean much of anything beyond them appearing in the game in some shape or form, whether that is music, trophies, ATs, playable, etc. and we could've guessed that a lot of these would make some kind of appearance. This is Smash related, though, and you could try to speculate some things based on them.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

So, the properties of a move only matter when you are attempting to counter my argument then?

Roy's Fsmash, Up-B, Neutral B, Up-tilt, Side-tilt, Jab, and Upair have unique animations. On top of the amount of visuals, the time spent dealing with frame data and Roy's unique properties:weight, fallspeed, how his grabs work, his unique tipper mechanic, amongst other things I'm sure I missed went in to differentiate Roy from Marth. Oh yeah, and Roy's unique properties on every ****in' move in his entire kit that I already mentioned. ARGGHHHH!

You are focusing on one of several aspects here, whilst saying my points are insufficient until its convenient for you to say the same thing. Roy is 1/3 a clone at worst. You already said you agree that he is a semi-clone and I admitted I was wrong about the Ike thing so why are you even continuing?

The properties and the animations BOTH matter, they're kinda the 2 things that make up a move. The 2 moves that ike kinda maybe shares have both of those things being different, Roy has many completely unique moves but he also has many that share marth's animations, hence the whole semi-clone thing. And that's not including all of the misc animations and stuff that Roy and Marth share, which Ike doesn't share with Marth. So we agree that Roy is a semi-clone then? Cool, cool, idk why you're continuing either.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

On top of the amount of visuals, the time spent dealing with frame data and Roy's unique properties:weight, fallspeed, how his grabs work, his unique tipper mechanic, amongst other things I'm sure I missed went in to differentiate Roy from Marth. Oh yeah, and Roy's unique properties on every ****in' move in his entire kit that I already mentioned. ARGGHHHH!

Melee Falco has lots of different properties compared to Fox. Still unambiguously a clone. I don't see why this is so upsetting or surprising. Melee Doc is one of my favorite characters in the series and I think his only unique animation is his taunt. Roy's not as much of a clone as Melee Falco or Doc, of course, but I'm pretty sure he still compares negatively to Luigi.
Edit: Which is to say, I'd say he's like 75% a clone because he does have those different attacks.

 

[Roberk]

I could, almost literally, use his and your exact arguments and make a case for Ike being a clone of Marth.

What do you think Ike's neutral special is based on? Roy's Flare Blade from Melee. Ike's Fair? Thats got the same animation as Marth's! Ike's counter is exactly the same as Marth's!

Yes, objectively speaking Roy is more of a clone to Marth than Ike. I was incorrect for saying that. I could still use yall's arguments for why Roy is the same as Marth and apply plenty of them to Ike though. Thats what I'm trying to get at.

I just need to say "look up someone playing in tournament with Roy then look up someone playing Marth in tournament," and then go to do something productive next time this comes up.

*inhales deeply* So, a semi-clone just like Luigi, Lucas, and Falco as I have been saying the entire time.

Also it does take quite a bit of time to deal with hitboxes and framedata. Theres a reason balance isn't always easy or quick. The changes made to Roy may not be adding a completely new character but it is still a far cry from adding Lucina. There is a very large difference here and I have no clue how yall can't see that.

Aesthetic from animations is super important. Don't people complain about "too many anime swordsmen!", we all know that these sayings are used to slight FE as no one would say that Link, Shulk, Meta Knight (he appeared in an actual anime, fight me), and Cloud shouldn't be here because they use swords. The reason these other characters get away with it is that they all have completely different animations and designs while all still using swords.

I'll give you the fact that he's a semi-clone, that doesn't matter. What I'm saying is that he is fundamentally built off of Marth. Semi-clones like Luigi, Lucas, and Falco get passes as one's Luigi, another is from a very small series, and the other is a bird as opposed to a fox. Aesthetic wise, Roy is just red-haired Marth. Now if Roy/Marth get English voices and get to express an FE rep's best (potential) part, their characters, then he could be a bit different. Character-wise Roy is the second weakest lord of the franchise so it's not much of a benefit but whatever.

Not exactly a clone, but still less unique than the other semi-clones.

 

[New_Dumal]

I'm not saying this to offend anyone but you must be delusional to say that Ike is "equally a clone" to Marth than Roy.
Tweak animations and change properties was and still is what clones means in Smash.

 

[Murlough]

Melee Falco has lots of different properties compared to Fox. Still unambiguously a clone. I don't see why this is so upsetting or surprising. Melee Doc is one of my favorite characters in the series and I think his only unique animation is his taunt. Roy's not as much of a clone as Melee Falco or Doc, of course, but I'm pretty sure he still compares negatively to Luigi.
Edit: Which is to say, I'd say he's like 75% a clone because he does have those different attacks.

I'm not upset. I'm annoyed. How the hell do you even get 75% a clone.

I give up. Yall, are impossible. At least I put in effort to make a counterargument. All I get is a "no my argument is superior to yours animation is all that matters."

I'm not saying this to offend anyone but you must be delusional to say that Ike is "equally a clone" to Marth than Roy.
Tweak animations and change properties was and still is what clones means in Smash.

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS RIGHTEOUS AND HOLY I ALREADY SAID THAT WAS WRONG OF ME.

WHY IS THE ONE TERRIBLE POINT I MADE THE ONLY ONE ACTUALLY BEING LOOKED AT AND MENTIONED.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I'm not upset. I'm annoyed. How the hell do you even get 75% a clone.

I give up. Yall, are impossible. At least I put in effort to make a counterargument. All I get is a "no my argument is superior to yours animation is all that matters."

Animation is a big part of what makes a character though, and regardless Roy is still based off of built off of marth and that's quite evident from all of the things they share, while Ike is obviously not built from Marth. If Wolf can have COMPLETELY different attacks but he's still only 70% unique according to sakurai, then what does that make roy?

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS RIGHTEOUS AND HOLY I ALREADY SAID THAT WAS WRONG OF ME.

WHY IS THE ONE TERRIBLE POINT I MADE THE ONLY ONE ACTUALLY BEING LOOKED AT AND MENTIONED.

While I also hate that this happens, welcome to the internet
All the positive you could ever do can be invalidated in the eyes of others by one silly mistake.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

I'm not upset. I'm annoyed. How the hell do you even get 75% a clone.

I give up. Yall, are impossible. At least I put in effort to make a counterargument. All I get is a "no my argument is superior to yours animation is all that matters."

Not continuing the argument but just to explain the mindset, I think the issue here is that clones are a judgement about asset use, not playstyle. Having the same animations make a character a clone, having the same framedata makes them the same character. The hierarchy is further reinforced by the fact that it's easy to have a character with the same animations but every single instance of framedata changed. Having a character with identical framedata but different animations is absurd.
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, I should have mentioned that part in any of my earlier posts and I have no intention of trying to persuade you, but hopefully it makes it more obvious how other people (be they wrong or not) might come to the conclusion that animation is the principally important factor here.

 

[Roberk]

Nintendo filed several new trademarks, starting with a Smash Logo.

https://mobile.twitter.com/trademark_bot/status/996151177099333637

I don't think these mean much of anything beyond them appearing in the game in some shape or form, whether that is music, trophies, ATs, playable, etc. and we could've guessed that a lot of these would make some kind of appearance. This is Smash related, though, and you could try to speculate some things based on them.

Most of these just seem like stuff created in the 2000's and not really expanded upon recently. Maybe they wanted to secure all of their stuff from that era just in case for corporation reasons?

Edit: Assist trophy and other miscellaneous stuff for Smash probably.

 

[RandomAce]

Nintendo filed several new trademarks, starting with a Smash Logo.

https://mobile.twitter.com/trademark_bot/status/996151177099333637

I don't think these mean much of anything beyond them appearing in the game in some shape or form, whether that is music, trophies, ATs, playable, etc. and we could've guessed that a lot of these would make some kind of appearance. This is Smash related, though, and you could try to speculate some things based on them.

When I first saw this, what instantly took my attention was Sin and Punishment and my hope went up for a revival. But then I realized that it was Smash Bros. related as you have stated. I guess they’re trying to copyright Saki being an AT again.
(I hope Isa becomes a character for Smash 5.)

I noticed that they trademarked the Smash Bros. Logo for the switch version. I have a feeling it’s the finalized logo for the game since it’s most likely ready by now. Especially since E3 is 4 weeks away. So I wonder how it will look like and what it’s final title will be.

 

[Murlough]

Animation is a big part of what makes a character though, and regardless Roy is still based off of built off of marth and that's quite evident from all of the things they share, while Ike is obviously not built from Marth. If Wolf can have COMPLETELY different attacks but he's still only 70% unique according to sakurai, then what does that make roy?

1. I neglected to quote your last post because you ended with a smartypants "why are you continuing" comment. There is no reason to discuss further because we argree that Roy is a semi-clone. What are you doing right now? What are you arguing? We agree!

2. READ. MY. POSTS. OR. DO. NOT. QUOTE ME. I already quoted the mod wjo said that same thing about animation taking up most of the time of a characters development in Smash. I said "find me a source confirming that and I will back down." You are not a credible source of information on the subject as far as I am aware.

3. Wolf is literally in the same boat as Roy. As others have discussed, I think yesterday, very many of Wolf's animations were ripped off of others characters moves in brawl. If Sakurai thinks Wolf is a clone great but then so is Roy....and you said Roy is a semi-clone.....you are also arguing with yourself here. You do realize this right?

 

[TheLastJinjo]

What's everyone's biggest pipe dream character? Mine is probably Kumatora from Mother 3. I love her design and the game she comes from, but seeing as how Mother 3'll probably never make it West...yeah, I'm not exactly optimistic about her chances.

I'd also love to see a Persona protagonist, but that unfortunately is an even bigger pipe dream than Kumatora, ha ha.

Adeleine from Kirby. She should have been just as much of a cast member as Meta Knight and Dedede. An Artist would be so cool for Smash.

 

[CroonerMike]

1. I neglected to quote your last post because you ended with a smartypants "why are you continuing" comment. There is no reason to discuss further because we argree that Roy is a semi-clone. What are you doing right now? What are you arguing? We agree!

2. READ. MY. POSTS. OR. DO. NOT. QUOTE ME. I already quoted the mod wjo said that same thing about animation taking up most of the time of a characters development in Smash. I said "find me a source confirming that and I will back down." You are not a credible source of information on the subject as far as I am aware.

3. Wolf is literally in the same boat as Roy. As others have discussed, I think yesterday, very many of Wolf's animations were ripped off of others characters moves in brawl. If Sakurai thinks Wolf is a clone great but then so is Roy....and you said Roy is a semi-clone.....you are also arguing with yourself here. You do realize this right?

Dude, chill out. Can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. There is no reason to be getting this mad.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

2. READ. MY. POSTS. OR. DO. NOT. QUOTE ME. I already quoted the mod wjo said that same thing about animation taking up most of the time of a characters development in Smash. I said "find me a source confirming that and I will back down." You are not a credible source of information on the subject as far as I am aware.

Take this with the same preface as my last post, but just to explain:
There's a reason Melee's roster went as it did. It wasn't models, hitbox properties or character physics that made the clones easy to produce, it was the fact that they already had almost all of their animations done. The fact that 4 characters with new models, framedata and physics could be produced in about the time that one new character could be when the only major carryover is the animation kind of proves that point and I'm pretty sure Sakurai has made comments to that effect when discussing the matter.

 

[Bebe Mignon]

So...have we discussed Emily's comment on the Smash roster?

 

[CroonerMike]

So...have we discussed Emily's comment on the Smash roster?

No, what she say?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

1. I neglected to quote your last post because you ended with a smartypants "why are you continuing" comment. There is no reason to discuss further because we argree that Roy is a semi-clone. What are you doing right now? What are you arguing? We agree!

I just said that because you said beforehand lmao, it aint that deep

3. Wolf is literally in the same boat as Roy. As others have discussed, I think yesterday, very many of Wolf's animations were ripped off of others characters moves in brawl. If Sakurai thinks Wolf is a clone great but then so is Roy....and you said Roy is a semi-clone.....you are also arguing with yourself here. You do realize this right?

My point was that if Wolf is 70% unique in Sakurai's eyes, then Roy is obviously even less unique. This was in reference to you saying Roy was "1/3 of a clone at worst" earlier, this obviously isn't true if Wolf, a character with completely different attacks, is still a 30% a clone. Roy is half at the very best.

But regardless let's drop the argument, we're just going in circles at this point lol.

 

[Chandeelure]

I will never believe anything Emily says.

Except if she says Bandana Dee is playable ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Bebe Mignon]

No, what she say?

She claims that the additions to the roster will make people jump out of their seats and that a lot of people will be happy. She's basically saying it will be the ultimate roster.

Edit: I have no reason to doubt her. She was the one who hinted Retro Studios' game.

 

[Chandeelure]

Spike is playable in Mario Tennis Aces lol.

I hope they make Blooper playable, like in Mario Party 8.

She claims that the additions to the roster will make people jump out of their seats and that a lot of people will be happy. She's basically saying it will be the ultimate roster.

Edit: I have no reason to doubt her. She was the one who hinted Retro Studios' game.

Sounds exciting.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I honestly think the current clone argument is boiling down to semantics/stuff that Sakurai probably doesn't even think about.

Do certain character share similar moves to other characters? Yes. Do practically ANY of the clone characters who share similar moves play similar to the one they copy? Is the answer no? If it is, then who cares?

It's like people immediately view the word "clone" as an instant negative as if there's literally no value in a character existing just because they're a clone.

Roy is not the same clone he was in Melee. Despite having similar moves, he plays nothing like Marth OR Lucina. Lucina also doesn't play much of anything like Marth despite sharing the moveset. They may be clones based on moveset, but what's the issue if you can't properly play them the same way?

Frankly, I feel like any negative feeling anybody has toward a particular character is because they want their own character to replace said character. Even though that's not how any of this works.

It might also be me getting tired of the same pointless arguments (like, not even relevant speculation), but sometimes this website gets soooooo deep into the semantics that they make Sakurai out to seem like a literal madman, considering things that are only magnified by this fanbase. Sakurai is probably just having the time of his life making these games, and when he makes clones says to himself, "Who would be easy, and what might make people happy?". We get fun characters that are easier to make. Big whoop.

EDIT: As far as leaks, that gets me excited. But I'll believe it when I actually see it.

 

[monadoboy]

https://mobile.twitter.com/trademark_bot/status/996151177099333637

Is that...?

Spoiler