Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[blackghost]

I'm not arguing her iconess in the "common pop-culture
I'm not sure but for me, to be a gaming icons, it should be for the traces you left in the Genre, for YOUR game . What you left in video games. Not for your gender, sexuality or whatever the hell... because then, we're mixing Politics, Feminisms and tons of issues that I wish wouldn't be discussed in something that the only goal is to have fun further more.

I would be happy if she gets in. But at this rate, are we adding Lara Croft because she's a GAMING icons? Or do we add her for being a POP-CULTURE icons?
n.

You cannot separate those issues form the importance of characters like samus and Laura tho. Thats not how these characters are recived and its not realistic for what they meant to the videogame industry. Samus, laura, chun-li (cammy is far behind) being women was and is part of their legacy. NO one in this thread could make an argument chunli or laura is not worthy of being in.

laura is enough of an icon that another developer "copied" her and made a good game and spat out a franchise thats considered legendary by some. Laura croft proved a video game character COULD become a pop culture phenomena (at least outside japan). Laura suffered because she was bounced around develpers and had sime subpar games (that STILL sold on her name alone) and now that laura is back in a good game series you can see how big she is.

Laura does beat cloud in recognition outside japan. like laura cloud design and character type has been copied and resold with great sucess. people liked drake and other swordsman BECAUSE they reminded them of luara and cloud. that cannot be swept under the rug. Who's the icon the original or the copy? For me that reaosning is the main reason bayo can never reach the next step. She's dante 2.0 not bayo 1.0. whther these compairons are right or wrong it is what people see and feel.
Mighty number nine, yuka laylee, and more. Master chief gets away with it becuase it came a full gneration after doomguy was gone.

Judging "iconicness" is a difficult thing. We have to take off our own blinders and bias and look objectively. When chaarcters like mario, cloud, laura, and assassin's creed have full movies and recognition even if i dont agree there's a reason these characters have this movie studios will get behind them, directors push them, and ect.
we cant even look at sales becuase if we did megaman the games don't sell as well as people may think. highest selling is at 3.9 million. Tomb raider was considered a failure selling at launch 3.7 million in 2013. The sequel sold 7 million. laura is very much still here.

 

[Pazzo.]

It's hard to try and use personal experience as a proof of popularity.

I was born in '97 and knew all about Croft and Tomb Raider.

 

[Sigran101]

A benefit of third-party characters is delivering a new fan-base to play and hopefully buy a Smash game that they would not have beforehand.

Speaking of which, there are definitely 3rd party characters that would get people to buy a new system for smash. One of my best friends and some people he is close with would buy a switch for joker from persona 5 in smash without a second thought. Although I hate this one, a crap ton of kids would buy a switch for minecrcraft Steve in smash. Third party characters definitely do draw in new customers from other fanbase despite what many say about it.

 

[Lyndis_]

Again, 2010 was not far from when Smash 4 started development at all.

Yes, there was a pretty big gap between 10 and 11 but not by the time Mega Man was added to Smash. Smash 4 was announced in 2011, but for arguments sake we can say that the roster was decided in 2012. That's only two years after MM10. His series was still pretty fresh in people's minds, especially if you consider Street Fighter X Mega Man to be a real title which I didn't here.

3 years is the very max if Nintendo had just decided on Mega Man right before E3 2013, which obviously couldn't realistically happen, but still if they had some super developer magic to make it happen it would be the latest. Mega Man was not forgotten at this point.

This is all not even considering the other series such as ZX and Star Force which last titles weren't that much earlier... along with quite a few spin-off titles that came out around 2010 (I believe most if not all are Japan exclusive though.)

 

[Pazzo.]

Side note: If Drake is a copy of Croft, then it's fair to say Croft is a copy of Indian Jones, who's a copy of Alan Quarterman, etc.

Same can be said for Mario, Link, Samus, Mega Man, etc. No character is completely original.

(None of these characters are actually copies btw)

 

[Bowserlick]

Third party characters (along with clones and cut veterans) are great downloadable solutions.

Sakurai has a limited amount of Nintendo characters. He has to be careful doling out the right amount and mix of old and new IP's without draining the character pool. Third party and cut characters allow him to avoid untouched Nintendo resources that can be used for other games.

 

[DNeon]

Side note: If Drake is a copy of Croft, then it's fair to say Croft is a copy of Indian Jones, who's a copy of Alan Quarterman, etc.

Same can be said for Mario, Link, Samus, Mega Man, etc. No character is completely original.

(None of these characters are actually copies btw)

But Lara took Indiana Jones and made a video game of it. They all draw inspiration from whatever before, everyone knows that, but you can't say she's less iconic than Drake just because there's something from another medium, she was the first in the video game realm and so deserves more credit for Drake than Jones deserves for her.

 

[NeonBurrito]

People need to remember that Mega Man's inclusion in Super Smash Brothers was not due to his relevancy or how iconic he was: it was simply due to how he "brings features and characteristics, to the roster that you don't see in other characters" and how he "was the most requested guest character".

His status as an icon most certainly didn't hurt him with getting into Smash, but it's not why he got into Smash. Smash just doesn't put icons in Smash for the sake of putting icons in Smash; they need to be unique and be popular picks as well.

 

[osby]

Third party characters (along with clones and cut veterans) are great downloadable solutions.

Sakurai has a limited amount of Nintendo characters. He has to be careful doling out the right amount and mix of old and new IP's without draining the character pool. Third party and cut characters allow him to avoid untouched Nintendo resources that can be used for other games.

Other games? There is no guarantee that this won't be last Smash.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

What would your reaction be if Professor Layton and Bomberman were revealed to be playable characters in Smash Switch?

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

What would your reaction be if Professor Layton and Bomberman were revealed to be playable characters in Smash Switch?

Wouldn't personally be excited about them, but I would like to see how they would be handled. Layton especially.

 

[papagenos]

Other games? There is no guarantee that this won't be last Smash.

I'd actually love if they "ended" making a new smash and just did continuous DLC for years with new characters constantly added and balancing patches fixing the games mechanics etc... doubt it'll happen but that would be great imo. Also sakurai has said hes done with smash many times before and yet he keeps coming back so I don't think I'll ever believe any smash bros. game is the final one no matter who declares it so.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

What would your reaction be if Professor Layton and Bomberman were revealed to be playable characters in Smash Switch?

(no offence to their fans but I'm good)

 

[osby]

I'd actually love if they "ended" making a new smash and just did continuous DLC for years with new characters constantly added and balancing patches fixing the games mechanics etc... doubt it'll happen but that would be great imo. Also sakurai has said hes done with smash many times before and yet he keeps coming back so I don't think I'll ever believe any smash bros. game is the final one no matter who declares it so.

Everyone keep asking for continous stream of characters but really how far can you go with the roster size? It has to stop somewhere and I think we are pretty close to the maximum size without characters starting to feel trivial, if this game not passes it.

As you said, Smash won't be sustained for years. Less selling games with more competitive focus tends to do that.

There WILL be a final one. Even if Sakurai keeps developping these games until the end of his career (I hope not), there is a limit on the number of games since Smash is built on "adding".

 

[Roberk]

Everyone keep asking for continous stream of characters but really how far can you go with the roster size? It has to stop somewhere and I think we are pretty close to the maximum size without characters starting to feel trivial, if this game not passes it.

As you said, Smash won't be sustained for years. Less selling games with more competitive focus tends to do that.

There WILL be a final one. Even if Sakurai keeps developping these games until the end of his career (I hope not), there is a limit on the number of games since Smash is built on "adding".

This is why cuts exist, they let the developers add newer and requested characters while keeping the development manageable. No way they’d end a franchise that sells consoles and millions of copies because “oh well there’s just too much content! Guess we have to stop!” It would only end if sales diminish, and even then an attempt might be made to revive it.

 

[DNeon]

What would your reaction be if Professor Layton and Bomberman were revealed to be playable characters in Smash Switch?

Psyched as hell for Bomberman, he's my number 2 choice. Layton would intrigue me to see how it works.

 

[MysticKnives]

Honestly Meowth should of been in smash since 64

A shame he never made it in

He would have been cool.... at least Puffdaddy was added to he game tho

 

[Pacack]

While I'm a little late to the discussion, I wanted to explain my view on video game icons as someone who's not quite 20.

SSS:
SS:
S:Steve(yes, really), Master Chief
A+:, Meowth, Mew(?)
A: Sora, Crash Bandicoot, Lara Croft
A-:
B+: Spyro
B:, Phoenix Wright
C:, Scorpion, Rayman, Bomberman
D: , Banjo-Kazooie
E: , Dante

Again, this is just my perspective.

 

[Lyndis_]

I'd personally be much more excited for Phoenix Wright than I ever would be Professor Layton.

Especially if we got his level 3 super as his Final Smash.

 

[Murlough]

Other games? There is no guarantee that this won't be last Smash.

We also have no reason to believe it will be.

 

[IntelliHeath1]

OKAY! GUESS WHAT TIME IT IS!

ITS TIME FOR COUNTDOWN!

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

While I'm a little late to the discussion, I wanted to explain my view on video game icons as someone who's not quite 20.

SSS:
SS:
S:Steve(yes, really), Master Chief
A+:, Meowth, Mew(?), Sora
A:, Lara Croft
B:, Phoenix Wright
C:, Scorpion
D: , Rayman, Spyro, Banjo-Kazooie, Dante
E: , Bomberman

Again, this is just my perspective.

Rosalina in the same catergory as Solid Snake and Scorpion? nah
and I'd say Lara and Cloud belong in the same catergory.
Meowth and Sora shouldn't be that high, and neither should phoenix.
Oh and crash belongs in like A+

 

[Pacack]

Rosalina in the same catergory as Solid Snake and Scorpion? nah
and I'd say Lara and Cloud belong in the same catergory.
Meowth and Sora shouldn't be that high, and neither should phoenix

You underestimate Galaxy, Mario Sports, and Mario Kart while also not considering how much the Metal Gear franchise has fallen from the public eye.

Meowth and Sora are that high on purpose. Meowth because of the anime and Sora because Kingdom Hearts is more well known among more casual gamers. That said, if there was a tier between A+ and A, I would put him there.

I think you overestimate Lara because of how much she was pushed in the UK. She's decidedly not Cloud's level elsewhere.

 

[ErenJager]

What would your reaction be if Professor Layton and Bomberman were revealed to be playable characters in Smash Switch?

My knee jerk reaction would be "Oh Bomberman? Konami's involved? Snake too maybe?"
Seeing Layton wouldn't really excite me. It would be nice seeing smaller companies get a piece in Smash though.
I'd be far more excited for Koei Tecmo to get a character... Ryu Hayabusa and hopefully Linkle/ hyrule warriors assets.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Is Bomberman really less famous than Banjo? I'd figured he'd at least be on par with him.

 

[SlickWylde]

Had a dream last night that Smash 5 was announced, but it was called Smash 4, and was literally just Sm4sh but with Inklings. I was in a room watching the stream with a bunch of people (I think it was my imaginary versions of you guys) and everyone was just so sad and defeated lol.

Also, I could definitely see Crash and Spyro, much before Master Chief

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

You underestimate Galaxy, Mario Sports, and Mario Kart while also not considering how much the Metal Gear franchise has fallen from the public eye.

Meowth and Sora are that high on purpose. Meowth because of the anime and Sora because Kingdom Hearts is more well known among more casual gamers. That said, if there was a tier between A+ and A, I would put him there.

I think you overestimate Lara because of how much she was pushed in the UK. She's decidedly not Cloud's level elsewhere.

Yeah mario galaxy and the sports and kart games are big but that doesn't mean Rosa is, she's not the main character in galaxy after all.

Lara is still the biggest female video game character and is known by practically everyone in the west at least, gamer or not everyone knows Lara Croft, the same can't really be said for cloud tbh.

Tomb Raider is known more than Kingdom Hearts by casual gamers too, I feel like people generally overestimate just how big kingdom hearts is tbh.

Just for reference, the last 2 tomb raider games alone sold 18 million copies worldwide, the kingdom hearts series has sold 24 million worldwide overall

 

[Deleted member]

I read you loud and clear.

View attachment 144291

Peter Griffin confirmed.

This made my day.

While I'm a little late to the discussion, I wanted to explain my view on video game icons as someone who's not quite 20.

SSS:
SS:
S:Steve(yes, really), Master Chief
A+:, Meowth, Mew(?), Sora
A:, Lara Croft
B:, Phoenix Wright
C:, Scorpion
D: , Rayman, Spyro, Banjo-Kazooie, Dante
E: , Bomberman

Again, this is just my perspective.

Hmmm..... should be in SSS andshould be in A+. ,, and Scorpion should merge with B tier, as is not more of a gaming icon than those four. Drop to C tier.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

This made my day.

Hmmm..... should be in SSS andshould be in A+. ,, and Scorpion should merge with B tier, as is not more of a gaming icon than those four. Drop to C tier.

Shiny, Sonic is never as popular as Mario. Him being in SS is fine

 

[Deleted member]

Shiny, Sonic is never as popular as Mario. Him being in SS is fine

But Sonic and Pikachu are equal.
I am not a Sonic fan or anything, but he is very popular. His games sold the second most copies out of every franchise.

 

[osby]

While I'm a little late to the discussion, I wanted to explain my view on video game icons as someone who's not quite 20.

SSS:
SS:
S:Steve(yes, really), Master Chief
A+:, Meowth, Mew(?), Sora
A:, Lara Croft, Crash Bandicoot
B+: Spyro
B:, Phoenix Wright
C:, Scorpion
D: , Rayman, Bomberman, Banjo-Kazooie
E: , Dante

Again, this is just my perspective.

Am I the only one who thinks Wii Fit Trainer could actually be on this list?

 

[Fenriraga]

But Sonic and Pikachu are equal.
I am not a Sonic fan or anything, but he is very popular. His games sold the second most copies out of every franchise.

I wouldn't really say Sonic and Pikachu are equal either.

Just because he isn't on par with the two doesn't mean he isn't among the most popular, though. Because he absolutely is one of gaming's biggest names.

 

[Deleted member]

I understand why Mario and Pac-Man would be a league over Sonic, but Sonic is not a league under Pikachu in popularity.

 

[SlickWylde]

Here are my video game icons (I'm gonna say from 15 years and younger) as a 30 year old man:

S:
A: (Banjo)
B:
C: (Never played MGS as a kid, but knew about it)

 

[Deleted member]

I wouldn't really say Sonic and Pikachu are equal either.

Just because he isn't on par with the two doesn't mean he isn't among the most popular, though. Because he absolutely is one of gaming's biggest names.

Sonic and Pikachu are equal.
Sonic is one of gaming's biggest names as well. Sonic should be in the same league as Pikachu. Maybe not Mario and Pac-Man, but still.

 

[osby]

Here are my video game icons (I'm gonna say from 15 years and younger) as a 30 year old man:

S:
A: (Banjo)
B:
C: (Never played MGS as a kid, but knew about it)

You can never have too many Bowsers.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I’m a sonic fanboy but I think Pikachu and Pokémon in general eclipses sonic just because pokemon hadn’t had large disasters like 06, boom and other middling games.

 

[ErenJager]

Can I just make a case for Koei Tecmo's possible involvement in Smash 5?

- The few new assets we've seen in Smash 5 have been Wii U based (Botw Link & Inkling's design)
- The latest installment of the Fatal Frame series was a Wii U exclusive. (Keoi Tecmo franchise)
- Hyrule Warriors (Dynasty Warriors is a Koei Tecmo franchise/ developed by KT) was very popular on Wii U & 3DS and was ported to the Switch.
- Fire Emblem Warriors (Dynasty Warriors is a Koei Tecmo franchise/ developed by KT) was made for the Switch.
- Atelier Lydie & Suelle: The Alchemists and the Mysterious Paintings (KT franchise) was multiplatform, but just came to the Switch.
- Nobunaga's Ambition: Taishi came to the Switch.

What i'm trying to point out is KT had heavy involvement with Nintendo during the Wii U, considering it got barely any third party support. Plus the continued working partnership on Warriors series. So far Smash 5 seems to be oriented towards Wii U era designs and assets. It's possible KT may have some consideration for its Hyrule Warriors contribution. Although with that being said spin offs/ side series don't get major love in Smash.

I feel like there's a chance.

How good of a chance Idk.

 

[Pacack]

Is Bomberman really less famous than Banjo? I'd figured he'd at least be on par with him.

Fair. Fixed that.

Yeah mario galaxy and the sports and kart games are big but that doesn't mean Rosa is, she's not the main character in galaxy after all.

She doesn't need to be the main character to get that much recognition from the spinoffs.

Lara is still the biggest female video game character and is known by practically everyone in the west at least, gamer or not everyone knows Lara Croft, the same can't really be said for cloud tbh.

This one can certainly be chalked up to difference of perspective. Lara is only that big in the UK, not elsewhere. Younger people in the US do not know her, but do know Cloud. Then, you have Japan and the rest of the East to consider.

Tomb Raider is known more than Kingdom Hearts by casual gamers too, I feel like people generally overestimate just how big kingdom hearts is tbh.

Just for reference, the last 2 tomb raider games alone sold 18 million copies worldwide, the kingdom hearts series has sold 24 million worldwide overall

While I understand what you're getting at here, I think that modern audiences will prove to recognize Sora more than Lara. Just wait until KH3 drops and we'll see if I'm right.

I understand why Mario and Pac-Man would be a league over Sonic, but Sonic is not a league under Pikachu in popularity.

I respectfully think you're underestimating the Pokemon cross-media franchise. It's the most profitable in the world for a reason.


I have made some changes to my list based on criticisms, though.

 

[Nekoo]

Tomb Raider is known more than Kingdom Hearts by casual gamers too, I feel like people generally overestimate just how big kingdom hearts is tbh.

Here's how I'm reading this "I Feel like people geneally overestimate the crossover of Final Fantasy and Disney and a series who sold 24 million worldwide while the announcement of a New World in a Disney themed event trumped The announcement of the Incredible 2 and a new Star Wars Battlefront 2 trailer (before it's release and ****storm)"

It's disney. Everything Disney is big just by brand power dude. You can't say otherwise...
Even if Sora HIMSELF isn't know by names, people recognize the Disney dude on the boxart- It's the same as people calling Lara Croft "Tomb Raider".
Disney themselve are recognizing how Big KH is now by including it in their own Disney events.Which wasn't the case until like KHIII
Also remember the age of the Kingdom Hearts AMV on youtube? Every AMV using the Sanctuary music that YOUTUBE THEMSELVES copyrighted it?