Official Smash for Switch 2 - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Guynamednelson]

Yeah, I know. In fact, I believe I was talking about what you said after seeing your previous post about BotW Link above.

Honestly I don't even think the remote detonated bombs are the worst thing ever but a Link without a Hookshot is #notmylink

 

[Laniv]

https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLeaksAndRumours/comments/1kd4qg0/yuji_horii_seemingly_confirms_chrono_trigger/

So apparently a Chrono Trigger remake got confirmed by Yuji Horii at a convention in Naples. Chrono Trigger has always been one of my favorite SNES RPGs so I hope this leads to it getting some sort of representation in the next Smash.

...maybe this is the motivation I needed to actually play Chrono Trigger lol

Please don't be be HD-2D

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Honestly I don't even think the remote detonated bombs are the worst thing ever but a Link without a Hookshot is #notmylink

Oh yeah, there is that. I do miss the Hookshot.

 

[Watuna4343]

Yeeeah, on the Paper Mario front, I do think he's unlikely and for very good reason. It's just Mario again, but Paper. And the '3 Links - 3 Marios' logic is something I've heard before but that doesn't really count as argument for me because a) the different versions of Link and Mario are just clones that are typically added later on in development, whereas with Paper Mario we are talking about spending time and resources on a 2nd Mario moveset instead of making a new character altogether and b) let's be real, The Legend of Zelda doesn't have as many options as Mario as most of the characters are one-offs. The same does not apply to Mario where there are so many characters (with some very glaring ones) that are there, ready to be included. And also, let's be real, he's a very bubble pick. Like yes, it's someone who is often discussed on these online forums but be honest - who outside of that would even care for Paper Mario as a fighter? The Paper Mario games are more niche compared to the rest of the Mario spin-offs and in general the Mario spin-offs are pretty much represented by the wider Mario cast, who represent the whole Mario franchise as a whole.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Yeeeah, on the Paper Mario front, I do think he's unlikely and for very good reason. It's just Mario again, but Paper. And the '3 Links - 3 Marios' logic is something I've heard before but that doesn't really count as argument for me because a) the different versions of Link and Mario are just clones that are typically added later on in development, whereas with Paper Mario we are talking about spending time and resources on a 2nd Mario moveset instead of making a new character altogether and b) let's be real, The Legend of Zelda doesn't have as many options as Mario as most of the characters are one-offs. The same does not apply to Mario where there are so many characters (with some very glaring ones) that are there, ready to be included. And also, let's be real, he's a very bubble pick. Like yes, it's someone who is often discussed on these online forums but be honest - who outside of that would even care for Paper Mario as a fighter? The Paper Mario games are more niche compared to the rest of the Mario spin-offs and in general the Mario spin-offs are pretty much represented by the wider Mario cast, who represent the whole Mario franchise as a whole.

Since I brought it up, I feel obligated to say: I was not really trying to make an argument there when I said it. I was not wholly serious, but I did have one little point when I said that; I would not be surprised if they had more than one version of a character with such a character fitting that bill being in a future Smash Bros. game. I mean, I am not crazy about Paper Mario, but I would not be surprised if he were playable in Smash one day. In fact, I mentioned the three Links because well, that kind of started it all, kind of, maybe.

Anyhow, I have kept reading that Paper Mario would be different from regular Mario in playstyle, so maybe he would not play that much like regular Mario?

 

[AreJay25]

...maybe this is the motivation I needed to actually play Chrono Trigger lol

Please don't be be HD-2D

It probably will be lol. Square ain't exactly in the position to do another FF7 style remake.

The most I can see is maybe a Trials of Mana level effort.

 

[Watuna4343]

Since I brought it up, I feel obligated to say: I was not really trying to make an argument there when I said it. I was not wholly serious, but I did have one little point when I said that; I would not be surprised if they had more than one version of a character with such a character fitting that bill being in a future Smash Bros. game. I mean, I am not crazy about Paper Mario, but I would not be surprised if he were playable in Smash one day. In fact, I mentioned the three Links because well, that kind of started it all, kind of, maybe.

Anyhow, I have kept reading that Paper Mario would be different from regular Mario in playstyle, so maybe he would not play that much like regular Mario?

Oh no, I did realize that, it's the whole conversation on the forum got serious about talking about Paper Mario's chances so my response was more part of the disucssion rather than for you, if that makes sense. Anyway, I did mention that the 3 Links having largely the same moveset is the reason why there even are 3 Links in the game (plus one of the clone-Links replacing another one of the Links), whereas Paper Mario wouldn't have that privilege. Which is why the different moveset is imo a setback for him because again, why make a 2nd Mario moveset from scratch when you can make any other character (not just Mario related)?

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Oh no, I did realize that, it's the whole conversation on the forum got serious about talking about Paper Mario's chances so my response was more part of the disucssion rather than for you, if that makes sense. Anyway, I did mention that the 3 Links having largely the same moveset is the reason why there even are 3 Links in the game (plus one of the clone-Links replacing another one of the Links), whereas Paper Mario wouldn't have that privilege. Which is why the different moveset is imo a setback for him because again, why make a 2nd Mario moveset from scratch when you can make any other character (not just Mario related)?

I just felt like I had to clarify my case. Thanks for saying all that, though!

But yeah, I am not too crazy about Paper Mario, so whether he plays the same as regular Mario or differently, I can do without him. And also...

I can see Paper Mario play more like, or completely like regular Mario despite what others have said.

 

[Stratos]

I would say that Paper Mario is a different character from Mario because Mario and Luigi had met and teamed up with Paper Mario in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam which was released on Nintendo 3DS. I'm sure everyone will remember that game.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I would say that Paper Mario is a different character from Mario because Mario and Luigi had met and teamed up with Paper Mario in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam which was released on Nintendo 3DS. I'm sure everyone will remember that game.
View attachment 402306

Is Paper Mario supposed to be a separate universe from the start or just this game?

 

[CosmicEternity44]

I would say that Paper Mario is a different character from Mario because Mario and Luigi had met and teamed up with Paper Mario in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam which was released on Nintendo 3DS. I'm sure everyone will remember that game.
View attachment 402306

Yeah, that is true, actually. However, even if he has all the different abilities and tools to make a different moveset with, I still would not be surprised if he played a lot or exactly like Paper Mario. I am not saying he would in the end, but you never know.

 

[dream1ng]

Yeeeah, on the Paper Mario front, I do think he's unlikely and for very good reason. It's just Mario again, but Paper. And the '3 Links - 3 Marios' logic is something I've heard before but that doesn't really count as argument for me because a) the different versions of Link and Mario are just clones that are typically added later on in development, whereas with Paper Mario we are talking about spending time and resources on a 2nd Mario moveset instead of making a new character altogether and b) let's be real, The Legend of Zelda doesn't have as many options as Mario as most of the characters are one-offs. The same does not apply to Mario where there are so many characters (with some very glaring ones) that are there, ready to be included. And also, let's be real, he's a very bubble pick. Like yes, it's someone who is often discussed on these online forums but be honest - who outside of that would even care for Paper Mario as a fighter? The Paper Mario games are more niche compared to the rest of the Mario spin-offs and in general the Mario spin-offs are pretty much represented by the wider Mario cast, who represent the whole Mario franchise as a whole.

Paper Mario being a bubble pick is a new one for me. He's a pretty well known character... because he's Mario, and has a sub-series that shares his name. He's also not that requested in the bubble. I mean he has popularity, but the bubble certainly cares more about other Mario characters overall.

My feeling is more people outside the bubble would be happy to see him than inside the bubble, because out there they don't care about Geno. Here people would be too invested in him and Waluigi, reception would be mixed at best that it wasn't one of them.

Also there's no actual proof being a different version of an existing character hinders your chances, so that claim is very conjectural. If anything, the amount of characters with an alternate would suggest there's no ideological barrier to that type of addition. Though I commiserate since it's not one I prefer.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

With Geno being obscure, I can see why people would not care about Geno, a good number of people, anyway. Still, on Geno and Chrono, someone on the last page said there probably won't be competition between the two, but if there was, and Geno got in over Chrono, it will probably be more, but maybe not completely because of Sakurai bias if he still has that for Geno.

Yeah, I am kind of joking around there.

 

[dream1ng]

I would say that Paper Mario is a different character from Mario because Mario and Luigi had met and teamed up with Paper Mario in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam which was released on Nintendo 3DS. I'm sure everyone will remember that game.
View attachment 402306

Well canonically the three Links we have in Ultimate are three different characters, because there are many Links.

But from a macro perspective, Paper Mario is... obviously Mario, and to call the three Links the same character is understandable, even if technically debatable.

 

[Stratos]

Is Paper Mario supposed to be a separate universe from the start or just this game?

Good question, but based on the example of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles from the 1987 animated series meeting and working with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles from the 2003 animated series in the movie Turtles Forever and somewhere in the final showdown they meet and work with the first Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles from the first comic book series, I would say that Paper Mario is indeed in a separate universe from Mario, although again the example I wrote proves nothing.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Well canonically the three Links we have in Ultimate are three different characters, because there are many Links.

But from a macro perspective, Paper Mario is... obviously Mario, and to call the three Links the same character is understandable, even if technically debatable.

I should have realized that from before, myself. If I may, though, I'd like to add that it is Mario, but from another universe.

You probably knew that, though, so who am I to point that out?

 

[RodNutTakin]

I mean...what kind of child roams around the newly monster/crazy people infested world with a baseball bat and nothing but fast food for provisions unsupervised with the blessing of both their parents?

Unrealistic scenarios don't remove character traits.

This logic is a bit disingenuous because I don't think there's anything in-game or in supplementary material for the original Ice Climber game implying that Popo and Nana were meant to be children from the start (or really any specific characteristics for them at all), unlike Ness or Lucas who are clearly established as such in game. What Sakurai did to the Ice Climbers is, as far as I know, his own personal interpretation, and I think it'd be fair to reason that a different director (or a different direction, we could've had child Pit in Smash as well!) could have done things differently regarding them.
It's kind of like how everyone used to envision the hunting dog from Duck Hunt as a Muttley-esque malicious jerk who relishes in others' mistakes, but Sakurai chose to characterize the dog instead as "cartoon dog who does funny dog things and occasionally laughs once in a while".
I guess at this point I'm not really arguing against Popo and Nana being children specifically in Smash, more that it's the direction Sakurai likely chose for his interpretation of the characters and that it doesn't necessarily need to be the "final say" on how people may see the characters outside of Smash's context (or at least, as long as Nintendo continues to do nothing with the IP in-house). But honestly, between them and the gritty Mach Rider redesign he likely came up with for the character's Melee trophy, I honestly wouldn't mind Sakurai directing a whole game focused on his personal takes on reimagining underused Nintendo characters.
Either that or just giving Ice Climber the Uprising or Bananza treatment.

Anyway, to move towards the current topic, I personally think the biggest obstacle for Paper Mario isn't just being another Mario, but a Mario who's still trying to shake off practically a decade of unenthusiasm towards being in Smash. The mentality for basically two entire games (Smash for and Ultimate) was "I don't want Paper Mario if he's going to play like the modern games", and the TTYD remake may already be too late to sway things right away depending on how long SSB6 has been drafted for.

 

[Gengar84]

Good question, but based on the example of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles from the 1987 animated series meeting and working with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles from the 2003 animated series in the movie Turtles Forever and somewhere in the final showdown they meet and work with the first Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles from the first comic book series, I would say that Paper Mario is indeed in a separate universe from Mario, although again the example I wrote proves nothing.

Hey, I hear TMNT, I’m happy so points for that lol.

 

[Laniv]

I don't think Geno's gonna be base game, so really I feel it's between Waluigi, Toad, and Pauline

And maybe King Boo

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I don't think Geno's gonna be base game, so really I feel it's between Waluigi, Toad, and Pauline

And maybe King Boo

Honestly I think King Boo is kind of a sleeper pick for Mario characters, at least somewhat, especially after the huge numbers Luigi's Mansion 3 put up. Obviously not guaranteed, but I wouldn't exactly be super surprised to see him lol

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Watch we get just a plain ol' Boo instead given how prominent the ghost is in promotional material and merchandise, even getting a character profile on the official Mario website before any other common enemy.

 

[Watuna4343]

Paper Mario being a bubble pick is a new one for me. He's a pretty well known character... because he's Mario, and has a sub-series that shares his name. He's also not that requested in the bubble. I mean he has popularity, but the bubble certainly cares more about other Mario characters overall.

My feeling is more people outside the bubble would be happy to see him than inside the bubble, because out there they don't care about Geno. Here people would be too invested in him and Waluigi, reception would be mixed at best that it wasn't one of them.

Also there's no actual proof being a different version of an existing character hinders your chances, so that claim is very conjectural. If anything, the amount of characters with an alternate would suggest there's no ideological barrier to that type of addition. Though I commiserate since it's not one I prefer.

I'd say Paper Mario is definitely a bubble pick, given that outside of the '3 Links, 3 Marios' statement as reason, another big reason I've seen stated is that 'we need Mario RPG rep on the roster' for some reason. Something which... yeah, doesn't strike me as something casuals would actively seek for. And also, personal prediction or gut feeling, something like it but I feel like Paper Mario's inclusion, if it happened, would be rather underwhelmingly received. The ones who wanted him would be happy, but I don't think people would be so over the moon for Mario but Paper (and also I think if Waluigi doesn't get in but Paper Mario does, there will backlash involved too much like with Piranha Plant making it in before Waluigi). So I really wouldn't confidently say that people outside of the bubble care for Paper Mario that much. I'm not saying that Paper Mario would necessarily be a hated addition, but I don't exactly see much happiness outside of his fans either.

As for different versions of characters...they have very questionable track record. There are 3 alternate versions which are clones (Dr. Mario and the 2 Links) so already there isn't much comparison (and besides out of the 3, only 1 actually has an at least outside shot of returning) and then the 2 that are their own unique fighters (Sheik for Zelda and Zero Suit Samus for Samus), only got in as part of a transformation gimmick that couldn't be transferred to the 3DS because of limitations. There's no evidence of a 2nd version of a character making it in on its own merits as a seperate fighter, which is what I think it's assumed would be the case for Paper Mario, hence why I struggle to see why Paper Mario would get in over other characters.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Edit: Didn't read correctly,

 

[Noipoi]

Watch we get just a plain ol' Boo instead given how prominent the ghost is in promotional material and merchandise, even getting a character profile on the official Mario website before any other common enemy.

I’d still take it. A ghost fighter would be really interesting.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I’d still take it. A ghost fighter would be really interesting.

At least it will be the first freely levitating character in Smash.

 

[Sucumbio]

King Boo would be a delightful addition to the cast.

 

[SharkLord]

Watch we get just a plain ol' Boo instead given how prominent the ghost is in promotional material and merchandise, even getting a character profile on the official Mario website before any other common enemy.

If he gets hit by Luigi's Final Smash, it triggers an easter egg where he dies immediately. No other fighter will be affected like this

 

[fogbadge]

King Boo could have a similar final smash to Zelda's current one. but with a portrait in place of the triforce

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As far as the Chrono Trigger remake, latest analysis of the event suggests the notion of a remake was created by the translator, not said by Yuji Hori

Hypothetically SE could be working on one or at least a glammed-up port, but its looking like this event didn't confirm anything.

 

[Louie G.]

I don't think Geno's gonna be base game, so really I feel it's between Waluigi, Toad, and Pauline

And maybe King Boo

I've been edging closer and closer toward the Pauline train lately, somewhat frustratingly. I do like Pauline well enough, but I rolled my eyes a bit at the idea of her being the "singer / performer" type character over other prospects like Chorus Kids, Squid Sisters / Off the Hook, what have you. Which is an archetype I want very desperately, just feel like there are characters more equipped to take on that role. Still I resign that Pauline's niche could be different than these characters, by embracing more of that broadway grandeur compared to say, Splatoon idols and their jpop synchronized dances.

I see some potential in Pauline taking more from her Odyssey appearance directly, using her big mayor's hat to replicate some of Mario's Cappy antics and using her tall micstand as a makeshift staff. All the while she can adopt some classic Donkey Kong iconography that Mario and DK are otherwise too busy to handle themselves. While I still think there are better options overall, I see a lot of opportunity for Pauline that I was hesitant to give her full credit for.

Mind you, I still think Waluigi is in the best position. But I've maintained that the Marioverse is likely to get two new characters as it usually does, and Pauline's stock has been steadily increasing, it's starting to be something worth serious conversation. Having the collectives of Mario / Luigi / Wario / Waluigi and Peach / Daisy / Rosalina / Pauline all playable is probably kinda neat too, could make for fun team battles.

King Boo is someone who has grown on me a lot though, and I think we tend to sleep on just how big Luigi's Mansion has gotten. He's also not in such a bad position himself, returning to MKW as a 'main' racer after appearances in Luigi's Mansion 3 and even a somewhat prominent feature in a memorable Super Mario Wonder level. Most notably, as addressed before, a 'ghost' character is such a compelling framework that we've hardly explored and I can see King Boo being very appealing in the name of moveset variety. I'll still give him a respectable third place in the current standings.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I dont want Pauline in the game because it will just boil down to a spam of Jump up super star.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Man...

You know how obnoxious I am about loving Lloyd Irving sometimes?

There will be no end to my obnoxiousness if Chrono Trigger actually gets a remake. I will go nuclear on the Crono hype train. (He won't get in but a man can dream. Lloyd is significantly more realistic.)

 

[cashregister9]

At this point I just want Pauline in because I want to play as her in the game.

I don't really care about how the greater Mario universe is represented or how she would represent the greater concept of music based characters.

I don't think she would exclude other music based characters anyways.

 

[Guynamednelson]

There will be no end to my obnoxiousness if Chrono Trigger actually gets a remake

Unfortunately for you, there will be no start to it either:

Gematsu (@gematsu.com)

Late update: footage from the event is out, and Horii himself never actually says anything about a remake of Chrono Trigger (like at all—it was all the interpreter). Sorry to burst everyone's bubble. Link: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2448211166?t=18941s

bsky.app

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Unfortunately for you, there will be no start to it either:

Gematsu (@gematsu.com)

Late update: footage from the event is out, and Horii himself never actually says anything about a remake of Chrono Trigger (like at all—it was all the interpreter). Sorry to burst everyone's bubble. Link: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2448211166?t=18941s

bsky.app

Looks like Geno is safe for now.

...Yeah, I was joking around. So what?

 

[Ivander]

I dont want Pauline in the game because it will just boil down to a spam of Jump up super star.

Unless Donkey Kong Bananza brings in the new hotness that overtakes Jump Up Superstar.

At this point I just want Pauline in because I want to play as her in a game.

looks at Mario Kart 8 Deluxe/Mario Kart Tour, Mario Tennis Aces, Mario Golf Super Rush, Mario Strikers Battle League, Mario Party Jamboree and Mario Kart World

Well my good friend, you have not one, not two, but 5 non-mobile games where you can play as her with a 6th one on the way for a total of 6 games where you can play as her.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Unfortunately for you, there will be no start to it either:

Gematsu (@gematsu.com)

Late update: footage from the event is out, and Horii himself never actually says anything about a remake of Chrono Trigger (like at all—it was all the interpreter). Sorry to burst everyone's bubble. Link: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2448211166?t=18941s

bsky.app

I'll go back to being the Lloyd stan now...

 

[cashregister9]

looks at Mario Kart 8 Deluxe/Mario Kart Tour, Mario Tennis Aces, Mario Golf Super Rush, Mario Strikers Battle League, Mario Party Jamboree and Mario Kart World

Well my good friend, you have not one, not two, but 5 non-mobile games where you can play as her with a 6th one on the way for a total of 6 games where you can play as her.

I meant The game, as in Smash bros.

 

[Noipoi]

I meant The game

I just lost…

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Do we not count Paper Mario as a Mario character or what?

He does. I just forgor.

Yeah, I do think Crono is the most likely but I don’t think it’s completely impossible to get someone else, especially if we keep Hero around. Crono and Hero feel a bit redundant together for me personally when we could get another character that stands out more like Magus or Frog. Not that I wouldn’t be hyped to see anyone from the series.

One thing to keep in mind is that despite both being influenced by Akira Toriyama, Hero and Crono (or whoever) would be using different art styles because Dragon Quest has deviated from it's original style to form its own while Chrono Trigger is just straight up Akira Toryiama.

Mechanically, Chrono has a lot more emphasis on physical attacks than magic, so unless they gave him other character's techs for no reason, he wouldn't fill the sword and sorcery niche that Hero does. If they go all in on giving him dual techs with party members, that'll really set him apart from Hero as well.

This logic is a bit disingenuous because I don't think there's anything in-game or in supplementary material for the original Ice Climber game implying that Popo and Nana were meant to be children from the start (or really any specific characteristics for them at all), unlike Ness or Lucas who are clearly established as such in game. What Sakurai did to the Ice Climbers is, as far as I know, his own personal interpretation, and I think it'd be fair to reason that a different director (or a different direction, we could've had child Pit in Smash as well!) could have done things differently regarding them.
It's kind of like how everyone used to envision the hunting dog from Duck Hunt as a Muttley-esque malicious jerk who relishes in others' mistakes, but Sakurai chose to characterize the dog instead as "cartoon dog who does funny dog things and occasionally laughs once in a while".
I guess at this point I'm not really arguing against Popo and Nana being children specifically in Smash, more that it's the direction Sakurai likely chose for his interpretation of the characters and that it doesn't necessarily need to be the "final say" on how people may see the characters outside of Smash's context (or at least, as long as Nintendo continues to do nothing with the IP in-house). But honestly, between them and the gritty Mach Rider redesign he likely came up with for the character's Melee trophy, I honestly wouldn't mind Sakurai directing a whole game focused on his personal takes on reimagining underused Nintendo characters.
Either that or just giving Ice Climber the Uprising or Bananza treatment.

Putting their designs aside since devoid of context they could be depicting chibi adults rather than kids, there are things in the game that make me lean more to them being children, specifically their victory and loss animations, which depict them hopping around and crying respectively. And yeah, Smash pretty much just fleshes out what's already there, so there they are definitely kids.

Also, I wasn't being disingenuous before. Your claim was that they couldn't be children because the game they were in was about mountaineering + monsters, and I refuted it by saying that child coding was about character traits rather than the scenario itself. For another example, Poppi QTπ is supposed to be a form for Poppi that symbolizes her transition into adulthood, but the characterization Poppy has in this form doesn't really change, showing that same nievite and similar mannerisms. Whether or not she is a child is dubious because she's a robot, but she is definitely child coded.

EDIT: Also also, I would definitely be down for a Ice Climber reboot. That sounds like it would be a lot of fun.