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Official Smash for Switch 2 - Speculation & Discussion Thread

SMAASH! Puppy

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I feel like Banjo would have had higher priority than Game & Watch and the Ice Climbers for Melee.
They are the weakest links here, but they were also selected specifically to have some weird picks, which Banjo would not have been so that's kind of a tough call. I honestly think that Marth is the most likely to be replaced here due to Sakurai's reservations about Japanese only characters, and Marth & Roy almost not being in the worldwide release; Banjo would be an easy character to add instead of dealing with that, but then he's also not as big as Marth was in Japan so...I dunno.
 

Gengar84

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They are the weakest links here, but they were also selected specifically to have some weird picks, which Banjo would not have been so that's kind of a tough call. I honestly think that Marth is the most likely to be replaced here due to Sakurai's reservations about Japanese only characters, and Marth & Roy almost not being in the worldwide release; Banjo would be an easy character to add instead of dealing with that, but then he's also not as big as Marth was in Japan so...I dunno.
I feel like there’s a plausible alternate universe where Banjo was chosen over Ness in Smash 64 if Nintendo fully owned RARE. Not sure if that’s crazy talk but I think it could have happened.
 

Gengar84

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If Nintendo still owned Rare, wouldn’t there have to be significant Sea of Thieves content in Smash?

Is there a notable character in that game that‘d work, or would it just be a create-a-character pirate? I’ve watched a decent number of livestreams of the game but I don’t know much about its lore.
Yeah, I’d imagine so. I doubt we’d have a character but a stage is totally plausible.
 

Freduardo

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I just see Ultimate just getting a "switch 2 edition" with all dlc, including mii costumes included (so hey, if you never got the dlc before, it's now only 10 bucks to get it all on your switch 2.) And IF THEY'RE SUPER NICE: Smash Run, a boss rush with a character select, and custom moves return. Maybe even one extra fighter's pass.
 

Gengar84

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I just see Ultimate just getting a "switch 2 edition" with all dlc, including mii costumes included (so hey, if you never got the dlc before, it's now only 10 bucks to get it all on your switch 2.) And IF THEY'RE SUPER NICE: Smash Run, a boss rush with a character select, and custom moves return. Maybe even one extra fighter's pass.
As long as we get some kind of substantial single player mode, some small improvements to existing modes like Stage Builder, and a lengthy DLC support for multiple years of passes to at least get us to 100 characters by the end, I’m okay with this.
 

fogbadge

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If Nintendo still owned Rare, wouldn’t there have to be significant Sea of Thieves content in Smash?

Is there a notable character in that game that‘d work, or would it just be a create-a-character pirate? I’ve watched a decent number of livestreams of the game but I don’t know much about its lore.
a better question is would Sea of Thieves still exist?
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I just see Ultimate just getting a "switch 2 edition" with all dlc, including mii costumes included (so hey, if you never got the dlc before, it's now only 10 bucks to get it all on your switch 2.) And IF THEY'RE SUPER NICE: Smash Run, a boss rush with a character select, and custom moves return. Maybe even one extra fighter's pass.
Given how The Legend of Zelda was handled, and licensing, I feel like the more likely scenario is Super Smash Bros. Ultimate: Switch 2 Edition including a boss rush, an Echo Fighter or 2, and maybe a couple of items. No DLC for the base game included.
 

Gengar84

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I’m still holding out hope that we’ll get either Rash or Fulgore in the next Smash. It helps a lot that both Battletoads and Killer Instinct are now playable on Nintendo consoles. Battletoads got a reboot a few years ago and KI got one a bit over a decade ago with rumors of a new game. Even Perfect Dark is getting a new game coming up so RARE’s properties aren’t completely dormant. RARE does admittedly have a ton of competition just from within Microsoft but I don’t think it’s out of the question if they want another classic NES/SNES era character.
 

Perkilator

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I just see Ultimate just getting a "switch 2 edition" with all dlc, including mii costumes included (so hey, if you never got the dlc before, it's now only 10 bucks to get it all on your switch 2.) And IF THEY'RE SUPER NICE: Smash Run, a boss rush with a character select, and custom moves return. Maybe even one extra fighter's pass.
I think it more realistic for a Switch 2 Edition to include relatively non-intensive-to-develop content like:
  • Rollback netcode
  • Balance changes
  • Target Test as an option for Stage Builder (which now supports mouse controls)
  • Boss rematches via the Spirit Rematch feature
  • The ability to create your own Classic Mode route
  • Online Squad Strike and Smashdown
 

Guynamednelson

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Given how The Legend of Zelda was handled, and licensing, I feel like the more likely scenario is Super Smash Bros. Ultimate: Switch 2 Edition including a boss rush, an Echo Fighter or 2, and maybe a couple of items. No DLC for the base game included.
I'm not sure how much content an NS2 edition would have, given that Mario Party Jamboree is getting all-new modes, but even still I feel like Smash Run 2.0 would still be too much work. Even with code from the 3DS game being reused, there's still a lot of stuff that needs to be remodeled in Switch 2-quality, such as all the enemies who never got HD models.
 

MBRedboy31

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Kirby and the Forgotten Land NS2’s DLC seems to be about half the length of the base game campaign, although it does have a whole lot of asset reuse. From the Treehouse gameplay I’ve seen, each level in it does have several fully new rooms that have no base game equivalent, but they still reuse base game textures and stuff.

I’m not sure what the equivalent of that for Smash would be, in the hypothetical where it does get a NS2 version.
 
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The Stoopid Unikorn

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I feel like Banjo would have had higher priority than Game & Watch and the Ice Climbers for Melee.
Ice Climbers and Game & Watch were hitting entirely different categories than any other character and are exempt of any "priority order"

The former were explicitly chosen among other NES characters. With Banjo debuting on the N64, he would not have gotten in the way of that.

The latter is the token surprise character. I don't think Banjo fits there either. Call it a hunch.

I feel like there’s a plausible alternate universe where Banjo was chosen over Ness in Smash 64 if Nintendo fully owned RARE. Not sure if that’s crazy talk but I think it could have happened.
Not really. Mother is massive in Japan and Smash 64 wasn't originally intended to release internationally, so Ness is kind of a perfect fit there.
 
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TheFirstPoppyBro

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or indeed a Starfy stage
I usually go for Pufftop for a Starfy stage, but an underwater stage would set his stage apart (plus it's an aquatic-based platformer primarily) so I'd be down for that too.
The times we argued "Smash is always out within the first two years of a console's life" are looking very stupid now that I've been reminded that this was objectively, factually incorrect.

Thanks, Nintendo 3DS, for giving us precedence of Smash not always being as early as we thought. Makes the idea of a 2028 Switch 2 Smash more plausible.
Yeah, I always figured Smash 3DS was the exception to the pattern and it probably wouldn't happen that way on a console since the pattern still applied to Smash Wii U, but now that we know Sakurai is making a launch window title for the Switch 2 like he did for the 3DS, it feels like a very apt comparison lol

Definitely feeling like Smash will probably be 2028 now since it typically takes about 2.5-3 years to make it, but it also means the project plan will be very relevant to right now, so I don't completely mind that, just might be a bit before we get any actual info.
 

Arcanir

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I still think the next Smash could be in 2027. If Studio S is working on the next Smash then they were recruiting in 2023 and stopped in 24, and I highly doubt they were doing nothing for over a year. At the very least I would assume they started early work on the game while Sakurai was on Kirby Air Ride, which would allow a foundation for Sakurai to build on once Air Ride has finished development.
 
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SharkLord

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I feel like there’s a plausible alternate universe where Banjo was chosen over Ness in Smash 64 if Nintendo fully owned RARE. Not sure if that’s crazy talk but I think it could have happened.
The thing is, the 64 unlockables were built on other fighters as a basis. Ness and Falcon aren’t as blatant as Luigi and Jigglypuff, but Ness was still chosen because he shared Mario’s skeleton. I don’t know anyone in 64 that matches Banjo’s profile, especially when factoring in Kazooie
 

Guynamednelson

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Ness was still chosen because he shared Mario’s skeleton
And it's kind of weird to think about when you consider that even in 64, Ness shares only one single animation with Mario, his getup attack.

Which is probably still less of a workload than Kazooie and her backpack, but it's still weird to think about Ness as a Mario clone when Smash's clones tend to be...more blatant.
 

SharkLord

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And it's kind of weird to think about when you consider that even in 64, Ness shares only one single animation with Mario, his getup attack.

Which is probably still less of a workload than Kazooie and her backpack, but it's still weird to think about Ness as a Mario clone when Smash's clones tend to be...more blatant.
Yeah, and even Falcon has more of Samus’ attacks, plus whatever they had left of King of Dragons. Ness is easily the least clone-y of the 64 cast. I wonder if this indicates he was planned from the start
 

Wario Wario Wario

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Nintendo, Capcom, SquareEnix and Konami merge into one company called "Japanese Games". Smash 6 has 200 characters!
OK, let's put aside the moral element, as you are doing, and speak practically on Smash: Japanese Games would theoretically have a shared budget pool, mostly shared marketing team, a lot of studio overlap/mergers/micromanaging - and most importantly, there would be an expectation that Japanese Games could put the same amount of budget into individual games and release them at the same proximity as if you were to imagine their pre-merger business as a single entity.

What this means is:
  1. All games have to be lower-budget and more rushed to statisfy the limited time that a smaller group of executives has; the more wide-spread budget pool; and the expectation of a preserved game frequency, cancelling out the 200-character dream
  2. Most retro cult-classic franchise revivals have been from aftermarket companies that literally don't own anything else - Metroid already struggles when the Mario machine is there, but under Japanese Games - competiting with Final Fantasy; Dragon Quest; Ressie... it is never seeing the light of day again, and that could just as well apply to Metroid content in Smash too. This is also an issue for Konami and Capcom IPs as a whole, they are niche brands while Square-Enix and Nintendo are mainstream.
  3. Smash's wrongly celebrated marketing cannot exist, and could by all means outright kill Smash's future, because it has such a reputation for overshadowing Nintendo's other products in marketing. Beyond Nintendo slowing down announcements to adjust for Smash, basically the entire Japanese gaming industry would hinge on Smash and the result that would be the best for everyone - even AT Japanese Games - is for it to fail.
Yeah, and even Falcon has more of Samus’ attacks, plus whatever they had left of King of Dragons. Ness is easily the least clone-y of the 64 cast. I wonder if this indicates he was planned from the start
Shigesato Itoi was actually the literal first person Sakurai asked for permission in making Smash 64, he says it right here just before yapping a bunch of really dumb BS about source accuracy. (Justice for Dashing Super Guy, he didn't deserve to be dragged like this)
 
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Thegameandwatch

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Pit is most likely replacement, who would then be a newcomer in SSB4
While Palutena (she still exists obviously but doesn’t becomes playable) and Dark Pit presumably never get added since Uprising wouldn’t exist (if it still exists then presumably just Palutena since Dark Pit was apparently based on a Pit alt in Brawl).
Melee: Banjo & Kazooie would be considered, though since his competition is :peachmelee::bowsermelee::zeldamelee::sheikmelee::mewtwomelee::icsmelee::marthmelee:&:gawmelee:, I dunno if he'd be selected.
My opinion is that it’s more likely that Diddy Kong gets added early or at least gets a trophy.

He was owned by Nintendo (stated in DKR box along with Krunch and Banjo) but they were bit reluctant to use the character until after the Rare deal with Microsoft and DK JR was also almost in Double Dash instead according to unused files in the demos.

Dixie and K Rool had trophies so I assume it’s because of Diddy Kong Racing.
 
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The Stoopid Unikorn

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100%.

Nintendo, Capcom, SquareEnix and Konami merge into one company called "Japanese Games". Smash 6 has 200 characters!
It seems you're also looking at it with the lens of someone who foolishly thinks devs have infinite time and infinite resources.

If Smash has yet to do 100 characters in over 25 years, do you really think a single game can add 111? Like, that's genuine insanity right there.

The big problem with the idea of Nintendo owning everything is that now, the pool of "first-party" options is much bigger but the number of fighter slots is the same so if anything, it causes some characters to become less likely, if not impossible.

If Nintendo owns everything, nothing gets in.
 
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GoldenYuiitusin

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Yeah, and even Falcon has more of Samus’ attacks, plus whatever they had left of King of Dragons. Ness is easily the least clone-y of the 64 cast. I wonder if this indicates he was planned from the start
Ironically Ness may have been the last character added to the game given the order on the Debug Menu.
:mario64: :fox64: :dk64: :samus64: :luigi64: :link64: :yoshi64: :falcon64: :kirby64: :pikachu64: :jigglypuff64: :ness64:
 

Guynamednelson

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I’m 99% sure he’s just trolling and doesn’t actually believe any of that. I think he’s just trying to get a reaction.
I'd think he'd have dropped it by now, because it's gotta be boring using the exact same tactics to troll people for years.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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I'd think he'd have dropped it by now, because it's gotta be boring using the exact same tactics to troll people for years.
I could say that for a lot of things about Smash speculation, which is why I'm inclined to believe he really means it
 

SharkLord

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It seems you're also looking at it with the lens of someone who foolishly thinks devs have infinite time and infinite resources.

If Smash has yet to do 100 characters in over 25 years, do you really think a single game can add 111? Like, that's genuine insanity right there.

The big problem with the idea of Nintendo owning everything is that now, the pool of "first-party" options is much bigger but the number of fighter slots is the same so if anything, it causes some characters to become less likely, if not impossible.

If Nintendo owns everything, nothing gets in.
To play the devil's advocate, if this hypothetical Japanese Games was a thing, they could probably pool together enough resources to make it happen. Kinda like Activision pooling everything into their yearly Call of Duty games.

To stop playing the devil's advocate, the modern Calladooty dev cycle just plain sucks and I'd much rather dev teams have room to actually work on new games instead of just being yet another cog in the Ultra Moneymaker machine

OK, let's put aside the moral element, as you are doing, and speak practically on Smash: Japanese Games would theoretically have a shared budget pool, mostly shared marketing team, a lot of studio overlap/mergers/micromanaging - and most importantly, there would be an expectation that Japanese Games could put the same amount of budget into individual games and release them at the same proximity as if you were to imagine their pre-merger business as a single entity.

What this means is:
  1. All games have to be lower-budget and more rushed to statisfy the limited time that a smaller group of executives has; the more wide-spread budget pool; and the expectation of a preserved game frequency, cancelling out the 200-character dream
  2. Most retro cult-classic franchise revivals have been from aftermarket companies that literally don't own anything else - Metroid already struggles when the Mario machine is there, but under Japanese Games - competiting with Final Fantasy; Dragon Quest; Ressie... it is never seeing the light of day again, and that could just as well apply to Metroid content in Smash too. This is also an issue for Konami and Capcom IPs as a whole, they are niche brands while Square-Enix and Nintendo are mainstream.
  3. Smash's wrongly celebrated marketing cannot exist, and could by all means outright kill Smash's future, because it has such a reputation for overshadowing Nintendo's other products in marketing. Beyond Nintendo slowing down announcements to adjust for Smash, basically the entire Japanese gaming industry would hinge on Smash and the result that would be the best for everyone - even AT Japanese Games - is for it to fail.

Shigesato Itoi was actually the literal first person Sakurai asked for permission in making Smash 64, he says it right here just before yapping a bunch of really dumb BS about source accuracy. (Justice for Dashing Super Guy, he didn't deserve to be dragged like this)
...Metroid, struggling? A decade ago you'd be dead-on, but Metroid Dread cracked 3 million copies, despite Metroid having been struggling to get a grip for the past ten years and being a sequel to the then-19-year-old Metroid Fusion. Metroid Prime Remaster then sold over a million copies, and now Metroid Prime 4 is finally approaching release after being announced like eight years ago. Yeah, it's not Mario-tier success, but if I remember correctly Metroid's average sales doubled on the Switch. Unless the bar to success is absurdly high, I'd say Metroid is eating really good right now.

The article you linked is pretty interesting, though. Itoi being the first guy contacted lines up with my guess that Ness was planned earlier than the other unlockable characters. The idea of a "dog fighting game" is also pretty funny. i wonder if Sakurai looked back on that pitch while desiging the Duck Hunt team.

Politely disagree on the "dumb yapping BS" about source accuracy. I think it's an interesting insight into what goes on between developers and how they see their creations. Kirby was Sakurai's baby at the time, and he's totally justified in having guidelines on how he wants his creation handled. Extending that courtesy to his fellow developers is something I respect.

1746479520343.png

Changing the topic a little, we've discussed for a while about how TPC is very protective of Pokemon's image, despite how we take Pokemon's inclusion for granted. This seems to confirm it. It's strange to think there's a timeline where Pokemon just... Isn't in Smash, at least not for a while. Funny seeing the differing reactions between Tsunekazu Ishihara and Satoshi Tajiri, though.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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I think long term Sakurai's general philosophy towards character representation and the general execution of such was a benefit in getting third parties to come to the table for Smash beyond just the money. Especially for SE characters and the likes of Sora, Sakurai and company gained the reputation for gettings fighters right, which likely helped negotiate the use of them circa Smash 4/Ultimate.
 
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