Smash bros needs more girls? Why

[3Bismyname]

let's just add Saki. he's close enough right

but anyway the top females that i think have a fair shot are Dixie, Palutena and a FE female
some more that i want and still have a decent shot include Mona, Tetra and Lip.
all are prominent characters within their respective franchises, all could warrant a spot, and all break those stereotypes that characters like Peach and Zelda made for Nintendo females.

 

[Hong]

the new list is better but again men can rep some of those games better

Lucina and Lyn are two awesome lords within the Fire Emblem universe. Worthy of note is Lyn is more akin to the Swordmaster than a traditional lord, where as Eliwood (who is sometimes regarded as the "main" character) is just next up in the line of Marths. Anna is one of the few characters who can actually represent the entire series, so i won't touch on that.

Dixie comes naturally after Donkey and Diddy, so next.

I am not a Star Fox fan beyond SNES and N64, but I can say without a doub that Krystal is the only character who can still deliver any flavour or new fresh gameplay.

Kachi is Isa's equal up until the end of the game when she sort of... enters him. Completely valid character choice.

Lip, along with Seren (my personal favourite), Ruby, Flare, etc., are from a game with almost exclusively female characters.

Kid Icarus has two important male characters that come to mind in Dark Pit and Magnus. Dark Pit is already a palette swap and Magnus will not find a character archetype that is not covered by an existing or more notable character and even then, none of them have anything on a long-standing character like Palutena.

Midna, Sami, and the WarioWare characters do have valid male competitors, though.

 

[Reznor]

Lucina and Lyn are two awesome lords within the Fire Emblem universe. Worthy of note is Lyn is more akin to the Swordmaster than a traditional lord, where as Eliwood (who is sometimes regarded as the "main" character) is just next up in the line of Marths. Anna is one of the few characters who can actually represent the entire series, so i won't touch on that.

Dixie comes naturally after Donkey and Diddy, so next.

I am not a Star Fox fan beyond SNES and N64, but I can say without a doub that Krystal is the only character who can still deliver any flavour or new fresh gameplay.

Kachi is Isa's equal up until the end of the game when she sort of... enters him. Completely valid character choice.

Lip, along with Seren (my personal favourite), Ruby, Flare, etc., are from a game with almost exclusively female characters.

Kid Icarus has two important male characters that come to mind in Dark Pit and Magnus. Dark Pit is already a palette swap and Magnus will not find a character archetype that is not covered by an existing or more notable character and even then, none of them have anything on a long-standing character like Palutena.

Midna, Sami, and the WarioWare characters do have valid male competitors, though.

I agree with this list (well everything but Krystal) I was mostly talking about Midna and a few others

let's just add Saki. he's close enough right

but anyway the top females that i think have a fair shot are Dixie, Palutena and a FE female
some more that i want and still have a decent shot include Mona, Tetra and Lip.
all are prominent characters within their respective franchises, all could warrant a spot, and all (except maybe Lip) break that stereotype that characters like Peach and Zelda made for Nintendo females.

I agree with this 100% and those are females I would like to see

 

[Hank Hill]

Truthfully, Dixie, Palutena, and a FE female character are all the females we would need until another becomes more prominent in Nintendo, I tell you what.

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

Truthfully, Dixie, Palutena, and a FE female character are all the females we would need until another becomes more prominent in Nintendo, I tell you what.

Yep!

 

[Guybrush20X6]

With characters that have a gender choice it seems to be the male gets picked the most with the Wii Fit Trainer as an exception.

The real reason is the marketing. Pokemon Trainer was a male for years before a female choice was made available in Crystal. The Male Animal Crossing Character, particularly one with the triangle nose, is the default choice if you select all the options that come up first in any AC game when making your character. And anytime I saw the non-minigame WiiFit stuff on adverts it was always the Female WiiFit trainer so naturally she gets in.

I don;t know what this has to do with anything really, just want to make conversation,

 

[Moon Monkey]

Dixie Kong & Kiddy (If the 3DS isn't having much trouble running it), Paluetena, Krystal are my top picks.

I do hope for characters like Pokemon Trainer ( I don't think it matters that much, since you play the Pokemon not the trainer) and Villager that there is a gender swap option.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I would agree that characters shouldn't be added based on their gender alone. That's poor reasoning.

I think it goes back to a bigger issue in which Nintendo don't usually create lead female characters or female characters who are hugely important to series they come from. They don't create many female characters who could get a place in smash without the gender card needing to be thrown about.

So I would say we're barking up the wrong tree if we complain at Sakurai. We should be encouraging Nintendo to create more dynamic and important female characters.

I do hope that Villager and Pokemon Trainer have female varients this time around, it doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to implement. Their voices would likely be non gender specific grunts/yelps.

It does make me wish Xenoblade Chronicles was a more major series though, if Xenoblade Chronicles were to get a 2nd representative there would be a very good chance of it being a female. So close and yet so far.

 

[Groose]

Dixie comes naturally after Donkey and Diddy, so next.

Kid Icarus has two important male characters that come to mind in Dark Pit and Magnus. Dark Pit is already a palette swap and Magnus will not find a character archetype that is not covered by an existing or more notable character and even then, none of them have anything on a long-standing character like Palutena.

I'd argue that the main villlain, King K. Rool, should come before the sidekick's sidekick for the Donkey Kong franchise. Still, she's definitely next in line after he is... unless if you would want some Cranky Kong action.

Also, the importance of Magnus is grossly overstated. He never appeared before Uprising and even then only appeared in roughly 9% of the game. He'd be a kickass character, don't get me wrong, but he isn't on the same level of importance as Palutena, Medusa, or even Hades.

Furthermore, Dark Pit definitely shouldn't be playable... outside of a palette swap. Simply put, he's a cool character that did steal quite a bit of the limelight in Uprising... but outside of unlimited flight, his powers are identical to those of Pit, who is already playable.

 

[Reznor]

I'd argue that the main villlain, King K. Rool, should come before the sidekick's sidekick for the Donkey Kong franchise. Still, she's definitely next in line after he is... unless if you would want some Cranky Kong action.

Also, the importance of Magnus is grossly overstated. He never appeared before Uprising and even then only appeared in roughly 9% of the game. He'd be a kickass character, don't get me wrong, but he isn't on the same level of importance as Palutena, Medusa, or even Hades.

Furthermore, Dark Pit definitely shouldn't be playable... outside of a palette swap. Simply put, he's a cool character that did steal quite a bit of the limelight in Uprising... but outside of unlimited flight, his powers are identical to those of Pit, who is already playable.

I wouldn't really call Dixie a sidekick;s sidekick she is a main character in the country games playable even more than DK

 

[Groose]

I wouldn't really call Dixie a sidekick;s sidekick she is a main character in the country games playable even more than DK

Actually, the same amount as DK because of Returns.

But yeah, I'm just so pro-K. Rool that my wording may not have been the most... objective.

 

[Reznor]

Actually, the same amount as DK because of Returns.

But yeah, I'm just so pro-K. Rool that my wording may not have been the most... objective.

forgot about the Returns games

and I get it some times you can't help but to writing ojectively

 

[shinhed-echi]

let's just add Saki. he's close enough right

lol
Except Saki is man enough to ask Airan to have his child BEFORE even becoming boyfriend-girlfriend.
And they do have a kid. however....Isa Jo's a completely different story.

 

[3Bismyname]

lol
Except Saki is man enough to ask Airan to have his child BEFORE even becoming boyfriend-girlfriend.
And they do have a kid. however....Isa Jo's a completely different story.

true true. i always mix the two up. they both look like girls to me

 

[Hong]

I'd argue that the main villlain, King K. Rool, should come before the sidekick's sidekick for the Donkey Kong franchise. Still, she's definitely next in line after he is... unless if you would want some Cranky Kong action.

You're right. I know K. Rool has a lot of fans so I should be more mindful of him... completely slipped my mind. :/ Definitely a potential contender.

 

[DeathKidZ100]

1.lucina

2.dixie kong

3.palutiena

 

[loganhogan]

I'd argue that the main villlain, King K. Rool, should come before the sidekick's sidekick for the Donkey Kong franchise. Still, she's definitely next in line after he is... unless if you would want some Cranky Kong action.

What if Nintendo is really giving up on him wouldn't the focus go to Dixie Kong?

 

[3Bismyname]

What if Nintendo is really giving up on him wouldn't the focus go to Dixie Kong?

not really. the 2 don't share the same role in the series so one being out of the picture doesnt switch the focus onto another. however, it can be argued that K.Rool really isnt as relevant as her anymore. i mean since Rare left Dixie has made more game appearances (K Rool made 5 to Dixies 9 and soon to be 10). but as a villain K Rool is the definitive character for the DK series. no other villain they've introduced in the series even compares to K Rool and that can speak volumes. i personally think either can warrant a spot, hell they could both get in if Sakurai wanted them too. but yes Dixie is more relevant than him at the moment.

 

[StupendousMike]

Good heavens, this may be old news to those participating in this thread, but I just read through a bunch of homophobic comments that made me uncomfortable. Ugh.

Anyway, No Smash character should get in just because they're female, but I'm rooting for both Palutena and Dixie. In fact, I support Dixie before K. Rool. Just throwing my support in for the Nintendo Ladies I happen to like a whole lot.

EDIT: Besides Peach, Samus and Zelda... who I love to play as in Smash in that order.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

While posting this pic on another thread I noticed one thing:

This fighting game has SIX female characters out of 16 (a catwoman, a beewoman, an undead, a hardcore little red riding hood and two succuby) which is a high percentual for an average fighting game. So, why can't Super Smash Bros. have the same?
One of the main concern of too many female characters in fighting games is they would be too similar to each other, which is true for Dead Or Alive, but just because designers didn't make any effort to go outside the stereotypes (I wish there were more female characters like Rila of Breakers and Breakers Revenge. While not all people will agree I think she was really sexy in her wrestling attire).
But when it's up to Super Smash Bros. they don't even need to make any effort because Nintendo's (and beyond) female characters are already enough different from each other.

 

[Reznor]

While posting this pic on another thread I noticed one thing:

This fighting game has SIX female characters out of 16 (a catwoman, a beewoman, an undead, a hardcore little red riding hood and two succuby) which is a high percentual for an average fighting game. So, why can't Super Smash Bros. have the same?
One of the main concern of too many female characters in fighting games is they would be too similar to each other, which is true for Dead Or Alive, but just because designers didn't make any effort to go outside the stereotypes (I wish there were more female characters like Rila of Breakers and Breakers Revenge. While not all people will agree I think she was really sexy in her wrestling attire).
But when it's up to Super Smash Bros. they don't even need to make any effort because Nintendo's (and beyond) female characters are already enough different from each other.

DS is a original game with original characters they have the freedom to make up what ever they want Smash bros is a crossover it doesn't have that freedom they have to use only nintendo games (like the 3rd time I've had to type this)

people have to stop using non crossover games to make a point

 

[Hypercat-Z]

OK Skip the (beyond) part. There are already enough nintendo female chars to pick among, if they care to.

http://www.backofthecerealbox.com/2008/03/ladysmash-gender-roles-in-super-smash.html

 

[Reznor]

OK Skip the (beyond) part. There are already enough nintendo female chars to pick among, if they care to.

http://www.backofthecerealbox.com/2008/03/ladysmash-gender-roles-in-super-smash.html

couple of things about the characters I will number it all just because I like to number stuff

1. no idea what daigasso band brothers is and why should the series get a rep over another (Elite Beat Agents would probably have more support just guessing though because almost every one I knew with a DS loved it)
2. why should Midna get in over Tingle when the latter has had his own games
3. Lip makes sense but is her series worth having in smash over others (real question I have little info on her games)
4. Dixie I agree with but her getting in over King K.Rool will make a ton of people pissed
5. Slippy has been in every game and in important to the starfox game why should Krystal get in over him (I hate Krystal but she would probable get in before Slippy sadly)
6. Marine Lightyears is owned by Enix which merged with Square making her a 3rd party (I think can't find much info on the right but I assume because it is made by Enix)
7. I know nothing about the Mother series but I do know there are characters with more support than Kumatora (her support thread only has 8 posts)
8. I like the idea of Bubbles would be a cool retro rep
9. why should Lyn get in we already had a FE rep for 6 and 7 why do we need another (and Roy has more of a chance than her with all his support)
10. Mona has the biggest chance of any Wario Ware rep (Mona is a girl so yay for people who want more girls)
11. I don't know much about Jill or how popular her game is so I can't comment on her

not against girls in smash but I am against gender being a selling point for a character

 

[3Bismyname]

couple of things about the characters I will number it all just because I like to number stuff

1. no idea what daigasso band brothers is and why should the series get a rep over another (Elite Beat Agents would probably have more support just guessing though because almost every one I knew with a DS loved it)

from what i can tell daigasso band brothers is more well recieved than Elite Beat Agents, at least in Japan. that said i dont think either warrant a spot to much.

2. why should Midna get in over Tingle when the latter has had his own games

i agree. really the only new females i think stand a good shot from Zelda would be Tetra, where if there's no Toon Link then may as well forget about her, or Impa who i would argue is far less important than Tingle

3. Lip makes sense but is her series worth having in smash over others (real question I have little info on her games)

kind of. we do have her weapon in Smash already (Lip's Stick). so clearly Sakurai knows about her. i think i heard in an interview one time that someone asked about her and Sakurai said something along the lines of "Does anybody even remember her?" so you can take that to mean that maybe Sakurai thought about her and thought that no one would like/care about her.

4. Dixie I agree with but her getting in over King K.Rool will make a ton of people pissed

i agree. hell i think both can warrant a spot and that the DK series can warrant 4 characters.

5. Slippy has been in every game and in important to the starfox game why should Krystal get in over him (I hate Krystal but she would probable get in before Slippy sadly)

im not big on Starfox in general, but i wouldnt mind Krystal as a 4th character. problem is i dont think the series warrant 4 characters and neither Falco or Wolf should be cut for a lesser character like her

7. I know nothing about the Mother series but I do know there are characters with more support than Kumatora (her support thread only has 8 posts)

yeah Masked Man or Porky would be better choices

8. I like the idea of Bubbles would be a cool retro rep

a little boring to me considering other retro characters like Takamaru, Lip or Mach Rider(who may or may not also be female) are more interesting i think

9. why should Lyn get in we already had a FE rep for 6 and 7 why do we need another (and Roy has more of a chance than her with all his support)

again im not huge on FE but i agree.

11. I don't know much about Jill or how popular her game is so I can't comment on her

don't bother. its one of those series that never quite worked out.

not against girls in smash but I am against gender being a selling point for a character

this is the way it should be. gender is really arbitrary in the long run. most girls i know who play smash don't know of any females they would want anyway outside of Palutena or a FE female. there's more guys they feel are more deserving and im inclined to agree. female characters has always been somewhat of an issue within gaming and sadly thats the simple reality. they tend to be supporting characters more often than leads and a lot of times they arent even the most crucial of the supporting cast. in some aspect i feel Smash properly represents this mindset, and its not Sakurais job to change that with Smash bros. especially when the pool for "good" females is smaller than the male counterpart.

 

[Hank Hill]

couple of things about the characters I will number it all just because I like to number stuff

2. why should Midna get in over Tingle when the latter has had his own games
4. Dixie I agree with but her getting in over King K.Rool will make a ton of people pissed
9. why should Lyn get in we already had a FE rep for 6 and 7 why do we need another (and Roy has more of a chance than her with all his support)

not against girls in smash but I am against gender being a selling point for a character

I'm neutral for the most part of what you posted, but there is a few topics I just want to slightly address.

2. Although Tingle's games weren't anywhere near Twilight Princess's success, I do prefer Tingle more.
4. I completely agree with you here.
9. I would hardly call Roy a rep for FE 7 because he only appears at the end of the game in a cameo. As much as I love Lyn, I honestly do not see her getting in on this point other than an AT.

 

[ToothiestAura]

Let's look at it this way: Brawl had 3 girls playable.
Peach, Zelda and Samus (Sheik and Zamus don't count because they're the same as two of the other girls).
Nana doesn't count because she's second fiddle to Popo. (You could count this as one half if you want).
Jigglypuff doesn't really count because it's a Pokemon and, well, it's had to tell. Not exactly a blatant example of femininity. (But she actually is a girl, so count if you must).
SSB clearly needs more girl than 3 (or 4 and a half).
Though, that obviously isn't a reason to put a character in the game. People just want more girls and that's fine.
There are also a number of characters who are genderless/have an unclear gender. Kirby, DeDeDe, Meta Knight, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, Pikachu, Yoshi, ROB and Game and Watch. (I know most of them DO have genders, but I them consider foremost as animals, Pokemon or sexless marshmallows in the case of Kirby.) It's harder to see the Male/Female situation with all the of the characters that are animals/creatures. Taking that into account things are less skewed in favor of male characters.


Character opinions:

I would personally like Krystal just because she would (hopefully) shake up the Starfox clone format.

I absolutely want Midna over Tingle. I mean Tingle's funny, but really? Midna & Wolf Link combo would be great. I highly doubt that would happen, though. It would probably come down to Tetra V. Tingle. And Tingle's AT inclusion was really just perfect - it hit the nail on the head. I fell that's the best use of him. Tetra or Midna would be far better in my opinion.

Lyn is an option, but I don't see it happening. Just due to her older status in FE. (not that that's a real reason.)

 

[Reznor]

Let's look at it this way: Brawl had 3 girls playable.
Peach, Zelda and Samus (Sheik and Zamus don't count because they're the same as two of the other girls).
Nana doesn't count because she's second fiddle to Popo. (You could count this as one half if you want).
Jigglypuff doesn't really count because it's a Pokemon and, well, it's had to tell. Not exactly a blatant example of femininity. (But she actually is a girl, so count if you must).
SSB clearly needs more girl than 3 (or 4 and a half).
Though, that obviously isn't a reason to put a character in the game. People just want more girls and that's fine.
There are also a number of characters who are genderless/have an unclear gender. Kirby, DeDeDe, Meta Knight, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, Pikachu, Yoshi, ROB and Game and Watch. (I know most of them DO have genders, but I them consider foremost as animals, Pokemon or sexless marshmallows in the case of Kirby.) It's harder to see the Male/Female situation with all the of the characters that are animals/creatures. Taking that into account things are less skewed in favor of male characters.


Character opinions:

I would personally like Krystal just because she would (hopefully) shake up the Starfox clone format.

I absolutely want Midna over Tingle. I mean Tingle's funny, but really? Midna & Wolf Link combo would be great. I highly doubt that would happen, though. It would probably come down to Tetra V. Tingle. And Tingle's AT inclusion was really just perfect - it hit the nail on the head. I fell that's the best use of him. Tetra or Midna would be far better in my opinion.

Lyn is an option, but I don't see it happening. Just due to her older status in FE. (not that that's a real reason.)

its not Sakurais fault nintendo doesn't have a lot of important females
now about the characters you have said

why should Starfox get another rep 3 is already a lot for a dead franchise
we already had Toon Link and now you want Tetra whats next Toon Ganon or Paper Bowser would rather have a character not based on a already existing one
Tingle is more popular than Midna he has his owns games and has been in more Zelda games he makes more sense than Midna
if we get a FE female I think we will get that one girl from the new game I forget her name

 

[DukeofShorts]

For all we know, there were from four to nine female characters in Brawl:
Zelda, Samus, Peach, Nana are for sure female and Pikachu, Squirtle, Charizard, Ivysaur, Lucario, Jigglypuff could all very well be female.(I know Lucario has a male voice, but those are just psychic words that he/she is putting into your mind.)

 

[Reznor]

For all we know, there were from four to nine female characters in Brawl:
Zelda, Samus, Peach, Nana are for sure female and Pikachu, Squirtle, Charizard, Ivysaur, Lucario, Jigglypuff could all very well be female.(I know Lucario has a male voice, but those are just psychic words that he/she is putting into your mind.)

also Yoshi there are Female Yoshis

Edit: and Pikachu is a male if it was Female its tail would look like a heart

 

[DukeofShorts]

Oh right, I forgot about that. Isn't there a way of telling which gender a Charizard is too?

 

[LaniusShrike]

also Yoshi there are Female Yoshis

Edit: and Pikachu is a male if it was Female its tail would look like a heart

Really? That sounds... really dumb.

AGH WHY DID I IMAGE SEARCH "FEMALE PIKACHU", I'm a trusting fool and the internet has failed me again.

Are there female yoshis? I kind of assumed they all reproduced asexually on account of their universal ability to pop out eggs with no real regard to gender. Or having a mate.

Yoshis are actually really, really weird.

 

[3Bismyname]

SSB clearly needs more girl than 3 (or 4 and a half).
Though, that obviously isn't a reason to put a character in the game. People just want more girls and that's fine.
There are also a number of characters who are genderless/have an unclear gender. Kirby, DeDeDe, Meta Knight, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, Pikachu, Yoshi, ROB and Game and Watch. (I know most of them DO have genders, but I them consider foremost as animals, Pokemon or sexless marshmallows in the case of Kirby.) It's harder to see the Male/Female situation with all the of the characters that are animals/creatures. Taking that into account things are less skewed in favor of male characters.

Kirby, Dedede and Meta Knight are all male. always have been.
i understand the confusion on Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard because there are no physical differences between the male and females within the pokemon games so whatever call them what you will. however Pikachu is male. you can tell by his tail. if its female it's shaped into a heart at the end.
and Game and Watch' name is Mr. Game and Watch so you can identify him as male as well. and Yoshi is debatable as well since in most regions outside of japan it is referred to as a male, however Miyamoto is on record saying he never assigned him a proper gender. and ROB, well w.e its a robot it has no gender to begin with.

 

[Reznor]

Really? That sounds... really dumb.

AGH WHY DID I IMAGE SEARCH "FEMALE PIKACHU", I'm a trusting fool and the internet has failed me again.

you foolish fool
another weird thing the Female Raichu doesn't have a point on its tail because the end of their tail is flat

about the Yoshi thing I don't think it has a gender but one would assume the species has gender (and if asexual then female makes more sense)

 

[Swamp Sensei]

All of these people are forgetting the most likely female newcomer.

Palutena!

 

[LaniusShrike]

All of these people are forgetting the most likely female newcomer.

Palutena!

I think I agree that she's the most likely newcomer. I can't think of anyone else that's more likely, and at this point I'm inclined to say that she's earned the spot or, at least, she will earn the spot eventually. In Japan, she's the title character of the Kid Icarus series (Palutena's Mirror) and she's becoming more and more important... I think she holds a very similar position as Zelda (to a lesser degree).

 

[Reznor]

All of these people are forgetting the most likely female newcomer.

Palutena!

she would be cool and I support her but I don't think she has as good of a chance as we might think
Sakurai doesn't like to "over rep" his series took 2 games to get more than 1 kirby character

 

[Swamp Sensei]

she would be cool and I support her but I don't think she has as good of a chance as we might think
Sakurai doesn't like to "over rep" his series took 2 games to get more than 1 kirby character

Considering Palutena is one of the most wanted characters here and mostly in Japan, I think she's pretty safe.

Besides... he didn't make Palutena.

 

[Reznor]

Considering Palutena is one of the most wanted characters here and mostly in Japan, I think she's pretty safe.

Besides... he didn't make Palutena.

true he didn't make her but he still might see KI has his series
and as we have seen just having popularity doesn't mean you will get in (some exceptions .... like 5)

Oh right, I forgot about that. Isn't there a way of telling which gender a Charizard is too?

male and female charzards look the exact same

 

[κomıc]

If the Pikmin series were to get another rep, I'm hoping it is Brittany. As much as I like Alph, the fact that we see a female pilot for the first time in Pikmin (because we know Olimar's wifey stays at home). And she has a pretty big role in the game, too. And Nintendo did highlight Brittany as one of many "female characters" to be playable in Nintendo's upcoming games (I'm thinking they also mean Dixie Kong in Tropical Freeze). Reading that line, it sounds weird- but I guess they mean there will be more female characters in their upcoming games, not that Brittany will be in every other game like it sounds @_@

 

[jaytalks]

I think in the hardcore community of Smash there would be a lot of anger toward Dixie getting over King K. Rool, but in the general community everything will be fine. I don't think fans looks at members of a series competing for spots in the same way Smash hardcore members do. And as a business matter, it does not matter if a community complains about a snub like that, because people are still making the economic decision to buy the game.

For animal characters (Pokemon), they can be both genders. They are referred to it in their trophies. However, Yoshi is referred to as a "he" in his Super Dragon trophy.

I'm not sure when popularity became such a deciding factor. It affect franchises already in Smash more so than it does new franchises. Popularity is a means of determining prominence, which affects a characters. Popularity is one factor in a multitude of factors.

I don't think it's a lot to ask for three or four females. Nintendo may lack females in lead roles overall, but there are enough characters that are strong in their own right to be characters.