Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[justaway12]

Yeah, 1 second, as I mentioned before...unless you weren't talking to me ^^;

 

[Diddy Kong]

I know this is old, but I just had to comment, because I don't think it's fair:



For everything said here Mewtwo has an answer.

1. Mewtwo can use Psych Up to get a similar effect.
2. Mewtwo can Safeguard the effect to stop it.
3. Can use Swift to ignore the accuracy loss, can use Mist to remove the paralyzing and confusing effect. I'm pretty sure "instantly defeated" doesn't count against bosses. He could also use Me First to attack Ness first with 1,5 the amount of power PSI Rockin Omega does.
4. Mewtwo can use Recover to get health back, and as said, can use Mist to remove effects.
5. Mist removes paralysis.
6. Mewtwo can use Barrier and Amnesia to also increase defense.
7. Don't know for sure, but I think Mewtwo could teleport too. Not that it matters alot because psychic battles pretty much ignore teleporting. He could also just Disable teleport if he wants to.

Not to mention Mewtwo can also confuse Ness and can swap his attacking power for his psychic power (I know he has a baseball bat, but against Mewtwo his physical powers are useless anyhow). He can also use various moves to power himself up by alot.

Also, everything noted above is only if he's UNTOUCHED. If you bring in tutors and TM/HM machines, Mirror Coat would come in and it would pretty much render Ness useless. Could also use Embargo to remove Ness' item, use a decoy with Substitute, use Role Play to get whatever Ness' special ability is etc.

Finally someone else defending Mewtwo.

Looking forward to the new Ness vs Mewtwo matchup. ^^

 

[Crystanium]

Yeah, 1 second, as I mentioned before...unless you weren't talking to me ^^;

Not even one second, if you were speaking to me. The fastest I tapped on this online stopwatch I am using was 0. The second fastest speed I got was 82, then 86, then 88, and sometimes around 104, or 120. But it was never a second. Now, if Sonic is going to be transforming into Super Sonic, and he's going to be moving at supersonic speed, we already know that at Mach 4.9, one mile can be covered in one second. (Mach 4.9 is 5,512.5 feet per second. One mile is 5,280 feet.) Sonic doesn't need that much speed, however. One second just at Mach 1 is 1,125 feet per second. How far is Bowser from Sonic?

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Okay guys, we really need the start-up times for Chaos Control and Stop Watches.

 

[Crystanium]

I know this is old, but I just had to comment, because I don't think it's fair:



For everything said here Mewtwo has an answer.

1. Mewtwo can use Psych Up to get a similar effect.
2. Mewtwo can Safeguard the effect to stop it.
3. Can use Swift to ignore the accuracy loss, can use Mist to remove the paralyzing and confusing effect. I'm pretty sure "instantly defeated" doesn't count against bosses. He could also use Me First to attack Ness first with 1,5 the amount of power PSI Rockin Omega does.
4. Mewtwo can use Recover to get health back, and as said, can use Mist to remove effects.
5. Mist removes paralysis.
6. Mewtwo can use Barrier and Amnesia to also increase defense.
7. Don't know for sure, but I think Mewtwo could teleport too. Not that it matters alot because psychic battles pretty much ignore teleporting. He could also just Disable teleport if he wants to.

Not to mention Mewtwo can also confuse Ness and can swap his attacking power for his psychic power (I know he has a baseball bat, but against Mewtwo his physical powers are useless anyhow). He can also use various moves to power himself up by alot.

Also, everything noted above is only if he's UNTOUCHED. If you bring in tutors and TM/HM machines, Mirror Coat would come in and it would pretty much render Ness useless. Could also use Embargo to remove Ness' item, use a decoy with Substitute, use Role Play to get whatever Ness' special ability is etc.

This is Smash characters true to their game. That means Mewtwo has four moves. Let's see how many moves you've mentioned.

• Psych Up
• Safeguard
• Swift
• Mist
• Me First
• Recover
• Barrier
• Amnesia
• Teleport (?)
• Disable
• Mirror Coat
• Embargo
• Substitute
• Role Play

I'm sure you know how to count.

Okay guys, we really need the start-up times for Chaos Control and Stop Watches.

I got less than a second with Super Sonic.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

I got less than a second with Super Sonic.

Less than a second for Sonic to transform into Super Sonic, or for Sonic to use Chaos Control?


Btw, we need a finalized time for stop watches. What have we got so far, a second - two?

 

[Uffe]

I know this is old, but I just had to comment, because I don't think it's fair:

For everything said here Mewtwo has an answer.

1. Mewtwo can use Psych Up to get a similar effect.
2. Mewtwo can Safeguard the effect to stop it.
3. Can use Swift to ignore the accuracy loss, can use Mist to remove the paralyzing and confusing effect. I'm pretty sure "instantly defeated" doesn't count against bosses. He could also use Me First to attack Ness first with 1,5 the amount of power PSI Rockin Omega does.
4. Mewtwo can use Recover to get health back, and as said, can use Mist to remove effects.
5. Mist removes paralysis.
6. Mewtwo can use Barrier and Amnesia to also increase defense.
7. Don't know for sure, but I think Mewtwo could teleport too. Not that it matters alot because psychic battles pretty much ignore teleporting. He could also just Disable teleport if he wants to.

Not to mention Mewtwo can also confuse Ness and can swap his attacking power for his psychic power (I know he has a baseball bat, but against Mewtwo his physical powers are useless anyhow). He can also use various moves to power himself up by alot.

Also, everything noted above is only if he's UNTOUCHED. If you bring in tutors and TM/HM machines, Mirror Coat would come in and it would pretty much render Ness useless. Could also use Embargo to remove Ness' item, use a decoy with Substitute, use Role Play to get whatever Ness' special ability is etc.

First off, Mewtwo only gets four moves. Psych Up can copy everything but HP, which still leaves Mewtwo at max of 416 HP. I'd think that Safeguard would up the chances of PSI Flash doing an instant KO on Mewtwo since it'd cancel all status changes. As for Me First, it only works if the other person is faster and uses an attack. Also, that's okay, because unlike in Pokemon, EarthBound uses scrolling meters, which even if it says Ness takes mortal damage, he can still use Life-Up to heal himself.

As stated before, since Mewtwo is a wild Pokemon, he is unable to learn TMs and HMs on his own. So he has no way of using Teleport. And if he did, that'd make Ness the winner by default since he'd be the one who ran away. As for Disable, it only disables the last attack the opponent used. And what do you mean confuse Ness?

 

[justaway12]

Not even one second, if you were speaking to me. The fastest I tapped on this online stopwatch I am using was 0. The second fastest speed I got was 82, then 86, then 88, and sometimes around 104, or 120. But it was never a second. Now, if Sonic is going to be transforming into Super Sonic, and he's going to be moving at supersonic speed, we already know that at Mach 4.9, one mile can be covered in one second. (Mach 4.9 is 5,512.5 feet per second. One mile is 5,280 feet.) Sonic doesn't need that much speed, however. One second just at Mach 1 is 1,125 feet per second. How far is Bowser from Sonic?

Are you talking about the transformation or Sonics speed? If you mean Sonics speed, then I feel that I misunderstood.

Well, I doubt the would stand up close and exchange pleasantries. I would think a fair ways away and Bowser has things to stop it too.

Firstly, he can't move by transforming, if we are talking about Sonic the Hedgehog 2, anyway.

Sonic needs three things to transform, the choas emerald, 50 coins and he needs to jump, he would freeze in midair for about 1 second, enough time for Bowser to get out his stop watch and they would freeze.

the transformation time takes 1 second, by that time Bowser might have already taken out his stop watch.

@Raizen: I think like 1 second for the stop watch, but we are still sorting out the details for Sonic...

 

[Crystanium]

Less than a second for Sonic to transform into Super Sonic, or for Sonic to use Chaos Control?


Btw, we need a finalized time for stop watches. What have we got so far, a second - two?

To transform. If the time it takes to use Chaos Control to warp Shadow from one place to another is the same way with the same amount of time to activate some kind of time freeze or anything else with Chaos Control, then the time I got from the moment he said it to when the green light disappeared took 9 seconds. Otherwise, I'm not sure.

Are you talking about the transformation or Sonics speed?

I was talking about Sonic's transformation. It's less than a second. It'd usually be around 100 milliseconds or so.

Well, I doubt the would stand up close and exchange pleasantries. I would think a fair ways away and Bowser has things to stop it too.

I didn't mean close up like that. I meant maybe something like ten or twenty yards.

Firstly, he can't move by transforming, if we are talking about Sonic the Hedgehog 2, anyway.

The video shows Sonic transforming into Super Sonic and showing no delay when he's finished. He jumps into the air, transforms, and continues moving forward.

Sonic needs three things to transform, the choas emerald, 50 coins and he needs to jump, he would freeze in midair for about 1 second, enough time for Bowser to get out his stop watch and they would freeze.

If we are assuming that Bowser is aware of Sonic's speed or what he could transform into. But, in this match, the characters have their items from their games, so Sonic already has 999 rings and the Chaos Emeralds with him. And again, that video whoever linked it showed Sonic transforming under a second.

the transformation time takes 1 second,

No it does not. I have been using a stopwatch. Every time I test it, it is never 1 second. It is always below that. I've usually landed anywhere from 150 milliseconds or lower. I have never gone past 200 milliseconds, let alone 1 second.

by that time Bowser might have already taken out his stop watch.

How long does it take to bring it out and use it?

@Raizen: I think like 1 second for the stop watch, but we are still sorting out the details for Sonic...[/COLOR][/B]

You say you think it's one second, which simply means that Sonic will be done with Bowser. Like I said before, Mach 1 is 1,125 feet per second, or 375 yards. Sonic will have covered a lot of ground. The video shows Sonic moving already after he's transformed.

 

[Reakt00r]

First off, Mewtwo only gets four moves. Psych Up can copy everything but HP, which still leaves Mewtwo at max of 416 HP. I'd think that Safeguard would up the chances of PSI Flash doing an instant KO on Mewtwo since it'd cancel all status changes. As for Me First, it only works if the other person is faster and uses an attack. Also, that's okay, because unlike in Pokemon, EarthBound uses scrolling meters, which even if it says Ness takes mortal damage, he can still use Life-Up to heal himself.

As stated before, since Mewtwo is a wild Pokemon, he is unable to learn TMs and HMs on his own. So he has no way of using Teleport. And if he did, that'd make Ness the winner by default since he'd be the one who ran away. As for Disable, it only disables the last attack the opponent used. And what do you mean confuse Ness?

That Mewtwo can only get four moves shouldn't really be taken into account, seeing as other characters get to use all of their moves from all of their games at the same time too. So it's pretty much whatever's in their world combined.

You're also using Pokémon's mechanics with Earthbound's mechanics as if they were the same or if they were cross-compatible, but that's not what this is about. That's just like saying Mario beats Bowser by letting him fall in the lava after getting the axe because that's logical and the mechanics work that way. And with that logic you could also say Ness his attacks could miss, because that's what they do in the Pokémon world.

The mortal wounded thing is a big advantage for Ness though, for which Mewtwo has no answer, unless something like Psych Up or the copy ability could get that special skill aswell.

And like I said, PSI Flash doesn't work against bosses, so it sure won't work on someone with such a high psychic level as Mewtwo that pretty much counts like a boss.

I also don't really get why he can't use TM/HM's because he's normally a wild Pokémon. I mean, Ness won't learn all these moves either without someone pointing him around to finish the game, but that doesn't really matter that much. And even if that STILL doesn't count, Mewtwo is an actual TRAINER in Pokémon Stadium. And seeing as he's a TRAINER he CAN use TM/HM's.

After this discussion I see that it might've been a good idea to have some specific rules to make the decisions more accurate. Like what's allowed and what's not, because that's unspecified right now.

With confusing Ness I mean use Confusion or Psychic to get him confused.

Also, don't get me wrong, I'm still not sure if who would win (in their own world, Ness seems to have a way bigger impact than Mewtwo does in his world, so I would vote for Ness too) but it just seemed very strange how in some cases the loser in the first posts seem to have no options AT ALL.

 

[Crystanium]

That Mewtwo can only get four moves shouldn't really be taken into account, seeing as other characters get to use all of their moves from all of their games at the same time too. So it's pretty much whatever's in their world combined.

The problem here is that the moveset in the Pokémon series has always been consistent with no more than four moves. This has never been the same for every other game, because they don't base their games off an RPG, and if they do, they don't take the same approach. In this case, Ness is not limited to four moves, but a variety of abilities.

You're also using Pokémon's mechanics with Earthbound's mechanics as if they were the same or if they were cross-compatible, but that's not what this is about.

Then this argument needs two sides agreeing with each other on how the mechanics will work here.

That's just like saying Mario beats Bowser by letting him fall in the lava after getting the axe because that's logical and the mechanics work that way.

It wouldn't work this way, of course, as this is a neutral battlefield that does not favor either side. This means that there is no water for a character like Samus to hide under while Super Sonic cannot go under water without drowning. Or it has no walls or anything to hide behind. So, if we were talking about NES Mario and NES Bowser, we'd give Bowser fire balls and hammers, while Mario would be given fire balls, and we know he'd win, because his fire balls are more efficient. There needs to be some kind of consensus here, and I doubt that 1 HP, for example, would be maybe 10 HP in the EarthBound Universe or vice versa. This really doesn't get us anywhere if that's the case.

And with that logic you could also say Ness his attacks could miss, because that's what they do in the Pokémon world.

But PSI Rockin' has never been used in the Pokémon Universe, so we really don't know if it would hit or miss. The amount of damage, however, wouldn't be any different, I'd think.

I also don't really get why he can't use TM/HM's because he's normally a wild Pokémon. I mean, Ness won't learn all these moves either without someone pointing him around to finish the game, but that doesn't really matter that much.

Ness isn't a wild Pokémon. He is not given the option from a trainer as to whether or not he wants to learn a new move and replace it.

 

[PowerBomb]

For everything said here Mewtwo has an answer.

1. Mewtwo can use Psych Up to get a similar effect.

Psyche Up only copies stat boosts/drops. It doesn't copy the actual attacks.

2. Mewtwo can Safeguard the effect to stop it.

ye

3. Can use Swift to ignore the accuracy loss, can use Mist to remove the paralyzing and confusing effect. I'm pretty sure "instantly defeated" doesn't count against bosses. He could also use Me First to attack Ness first with 1,5 the amount of power PSI Rockin Omega does.

Me First only works if you're faster...Mewtwo probably is. Mist only negates stat drops...
Mewtwo isn't a boss.
Swift is extremely weak.

4. Mewtwo can use Recover to get health back, and as said, can use Mist to remove effects.

Yes for Recover, no for Mist unless it is stat dropping.

5. Mist removes paralysis.

No, it doesn't.

6. Mewtwo can use Barrier and Amnesia to also increase defense.

Waste, IMO. He's better off trying to nail the opponent with attacks.

7. Don't know for sure, but I think Mewtwo could teleport too. Not that it matters alot because psychic battles pretty much ignore teleporting. He could also just Disable teleport if he wants to.

1. Mewtwo doesn't learn Teleport
2. Disable has crap accuracy

Not to mention Mewtwo can also confuse Ness and can swap his attacking power for his psychic power (I know he has a baseball bat, but against Mewtwo his physical powers are useless anyhow). He can also use various moves to power himself up by alot.

Mewtwo doesn't learn Confuse Ray...
Power Swap would only work well if Mewtwo had Psycho Boost, but he doesn't. It really doesn't apply in this battle.

Also, everything noted above is only if he's UNTOUCHED. If you bring in tutors and TM/HM machines, Mirror Coat would come in and it would pretty much render Ness useless. Could also use Embargo to remove Ness' item, use a decoy with Substitute, use Role Play to get whatever Ness' special ability is etc.

Mirror Coat has negative priority, Mewtwo has to get hurt first by the uber Rockin'. Mewtwo is wild, he can't teach himself TMs or Move Tutor moves (nor can he brain wash them for that matter ).
Embargo nulls items for a few turns. That's about it.

 

[Reakt00r]

The problem here is that the moveset in the Pokémon series has always been consistent with no more than four moves. This has never been the same for every other game, because they don't base their games off an RPG, and if they do, they don't take the same approach. In this case, Ness is not limited to four moves, but a variety of abilities.

But Mewtwo hasn't only been in the "regular" Pokémon games. There's also Pokémon Snap, Pokémon Puzzle League, Pokémon Pinball and Mystery Dungeon series.

Then this argument needs two sides agreeing with each other on how the mechanics will work here.

That's why I said it would be better to get some rules, but seeing as this topic has already 101 pages, that's a bit to late now

It wouldn't work this way, of course, as this is a neutral battlefield that does not favor either side. This means that there is no water for a character like Samus to hide under while Super Sonic cannot go under water without drowning. Or it has no walls or anything to hide behind. So, if we were talking about NES Mario and NES Bowser, we'd give Bowser fire balls and hammers, while Mario would be given fire balls, and we know he'd win, because his fire balls are more efficient. There needs to be some kind of consensus here, and I doubt that 1 HP, for example, would be maybe 10 HP in the EarthBound Universe or vice versa. This really doesn't get us anywhere if that's the case.

I do think 1 HP here would be 10 HP in the EarthBound Universe, if not alot more, because Mewtwo, in the standard Pokémon series is some sort of boss character that shows up at the end, and in there it has an amount of HP appropriate to that of a boss. The same should apply for Ness when he's at the ending of Earthbound. That would make it fair.

But PSI Rockin' has never been used in the Pokémon Universe, so we really don't know if it would hit or miss. The amount of damage, however, wouldn't be any different, I'd think.

It was for exampe-purposes only. I still think pure damage calculations should be taken out completely, because it just leads to non-stopping discussions with no real winner.

Ness isn't a wild Pokémon. He is not given the option from a trainer as to whether or not he wants to learn a new move and replace it.

Yeah, I edited my post to make it work anyhow, but you already answered Anyway, in short, Mewtwo is a trainer so he can use stuff too.


Again, I know Ness would "probably" win, but this is the most "exciting" and highest ranking battle apart from Ganondorf to me (how Samus Aran and Sonic the Hedgehog are above Lucas, Ness and Mewtwo are beyond me), so it shouldn't be so simplified.

EDIT: No offense, PowerBomb, but your post just has too much stuff in it that needs to be fixed because you miss the point or missed whatever else I posted, so I'm just gonna continue discussing with Drynn at this moment.

EDIT2: I also wanted to say that I find it awesome that people here are discussing so well even though the borderlines of the rules are so extremely thin, since this usually leads to flamewars. So props to everyone who posted in this topic! ;D

 

[Crystanium]

But Mewtwo hasn't only been in the "regular" Pokémon games. There's also Pokémon Snap, Pokémon Puzzle League, Pokémon Pinball and Mystery Dungeon series.

I've only played Pokémon Snap in the list you offered. I don't know about the other games, but I will ask if you were given a moveset, or if the games worked like what goes on in the games like Red, Blue, Yellow? If not, we might dismiss these games here.

That's why I said it would be better to get some rules, but seeing as this topic has already 101 pages, that's a bit to late now

We're starting over right now. Simna ibn Sind said that the tier list is actually based on how well each character does against the other characters. For this reason, we're starting it over, and right now we're on the discussion of Bowser and Sonic.

I do think 1 HP here would be 10 HP in the EarthBound Universe, if not alot more, because Mewtwo, in the standard Pokémon series is some sort of boss character that shows up at the end, and in there it has an amount of HP appropriate to that of a boss. The same should apply for Ness when he's at the ending of Earthbound. That would make it fair.

If you're saying that Ness' HP should be reduced, then it would be true to the game, which is what this thread is about. It's taking the characters of Smash and saying that if Nintendo went by how the characters were portrayed in their respective universes, then the characters who are low like Ness, Lucas, Samus, Sonic, Ike wouldn't be that low if Smash was true to the characters and the games from which they derive.

It was for exampe-purposes only. I still think pure damage calculations should be taken out completely, because it just leads to non-stopping discussions with no real winner.

Kind of like Samus versus Link, where in reality, Link would be obliterated, but with his Heart Containers, we can't accurately figure out how much damage he'd take from a stacked Ice, Wave, and Plasma Beam?

Again, I know Ness would "probably" win, but this is the most "exciting" and highest ranking battle apart from Ganondorf to me (how Samus Aran and Sonic the Hedgehog are above Lucas, Ness and Mewtwo are beyond me), so it shouldn't be so simplified.

Samus and Sonic are above the others, because they are capable of becoming invincible. When Sonic becomes Super Sonic (I don't know why we are ignoring Hyper Sonic), he's invincible. When Samus uses her Speed Booster, she's invincible.

EDIT2: I also wanted to say that I find it awesome that people here are discussing so well even though the borderlines of the rules are so extremely thin, since this usually leads to flamewars. So props to everyone who posted in this topic! ;D

It's gotten a little heated in the past, but nothing too big. We're trying to follow the SWF rules here, and I don't think anyone is going to flame or troll in a thread when a moderator is involved with this thread.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I've only played Pokémon Snap in the list you offered. I don't know about the other games, but I will ask if you were given a moveset, or if the games worked like what goes on in the games like Red, Blue, Yellow? If not, we might dismiss these games here.

From those games listed, only Mystery Dungeon might bring some interesting aspects to the Pokemon characters. In Mystery Dungeon, you play as a human who turned into a Pokemon and a partner Pokemon. Your mission is to form a rescue team and complete missions.

Pokemon are able to use items as Berries (which recover as much HP as potions in the 'canon' games) TMs, and can throw stuff as 'Graveller Rocks', 'Cacnea Spikes' and 'Iron Thorns'. Also new in Mystery Dungeon is range. Fire Blast for example can be fired of from a big distance while Tackle needs to be performed from up close. Moves like Discharge and... others (memory sucks) attack all wild Pokemon in the area for example.

Mewtwo is also playable, and has much the same role as he has in the main games. http://www.serebii.net/dungeon2/items.shtml <- list of items in Mystery Dungeon.

Samus and Sonic are above the others, because they are capable of becoming invincible. When Sonic becomes Super Sonic (I don't know why we are ignoring Hyper Sonic), he's invincible. When Samus uses her Speed Booster, she's invincible.

Link, Mario, and DK are also able to become invincible yet they're not as high as Samus and Sonic...

 

[Uffe]

I do think 1 HP here would be 10 HP in the EarthBound Universe, if not alot more, because Mewtwo, in the standard Pokémon series is some sort of boss character that shows up at the end, and in there it has an amount of HP appropriate to that of a boss. The same should apply for Ness when he's at the ending of Earthbound. That would make it fair.

Chansey's evolved form I believe reaches +700 HP in Pokemon. Therefore we know that there is no HP differences in both Pokemon and EarthBound. I don't believe 1 = 10. Both worlds go by the amount of HP given to them. Until Nintendo themselves state this, I doubt that 1 = 10.

It was for example-purposes only. I still think pure damage calculations should be taken out completely, because it just leads to non-stopping discussions with no real winner.

It doesn't change the fact that PSI Rockin' Omega is a deadly move that deals a great amount of damage.

Yeah, I edited my post to make it work anyhow, but you already answered Anyway, in short, Mewtwo is a trainer so he can use stuff too.

So what does he get? Because if he doesn't obtain any TM's or HM's that are of use to him in any of the Pokemon games without a trainer, then this part of the discussion is pointless.

Link, Mario, and DK are also able to become invincible yet they're not as high as Samus and Sonic...

Are you talking about the Starman for Mario? Because that wares off quick. If you're talking about Nayru's Love for Link, he can just be knocked down until his magic runs out.

 

[Kuraudo]

We could just wait for another episode of Super Mario Bros. Z to come out, and see if Bowser and Sonic square off anytime soon.

Just kidding. I couldn't add anything else to this conversation. You guys got it covered, though my vote is obvious.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Chansey's evolved form I believe reaches +700 HP in Pokemon. Therefore we know that there is no HP differences in both Pokemon and EarthBound. I don't believe 1 = 10. Both worlds go by the amount of HP given to them. Until Nintendo themselves state this, I doubt that 1 = 10.

Game mechanics maybe. If EarthBound and Pokemon truely went with the same formula, they wouldn't be so... different. Fights in EarthBound are meant to take longer than fights in Pokemon cause in Pokemon you use a full party of 6.

If Pokemon truely went into the 1000 HP and over, it would complicate things only. Hence why the game's called Pocket Monsters.

Besides, a roach in EarthBound already has HP of 300~400. Same with regular crocodiles, bears and cavemen (all around 350~500 HP respectivly). I personally have a hard time believing that a 11'06 tall, 2094 lbs heavy, combat-specialised trained creature in it's full potential (level 100 lolz) who's supposed to have created all land mass in it's respective fictive world only has a absolute max HP of only 404 -talking about Groudon btw- which is lower than the average crocodile in EarthBound. I think the developers of Mystery Dungeon knew this, cause boss Pokemon have more HP there.

It doesn't change the fact that PSI Rockin' Omega is a deadly move that deals a great amount of damage.

Still, a psychic shield could prefent it or sometimes even reflect it back. There are ways to beat the move, and it has a chance of failure as well, meaning it can miss.

So what does he get? Because if he doesn't obtain any TM's or HM's that are of use to him in any of the Pokemon games without a trainer, then this part of the discussion is pointless.

In Pokemon Stadium Mewtwo somehow managed to learn himself Blizzard and Thunder. He doesn't learn it by himself, and there was no trainer (except a mugshot of Mewtwo himself) to learn the moves to him.

Are you talking about the Starman for Mario? Because that wares off quick. If you're talking about Nayru's Love for Link, he can just be knocked down until his magic runs out.

Uhm yeah I was talking about the Starmen for Mario. Nayru's Love kinda sucks yeah, but can Link be knocked down with the Magic Armor too? Not that it mathers, cause he could just put on his Iron Boots and not be knocked down. There's also the Cane of Bryna (sp?) and Magic Cape from ALTTP.

EDIT: Ohh on a side note, just found this: http://earthbound.wikia.com/wiki/Giygas
Giygas in Mother 1's sprite looks a lot like Mewtwo from R/B/Y. If you look further in the article, you can read that Mewtwo's design was inspired by Giygas's first design.

Here's the exact text:

Giygas' battle sprite in Mother vaguely resembles the Pokémon Mewtwo, most significantly its battle sprite in the series' Yellow version, they both also posses phenomenal psychic powers. Of note, a number of developers behind the "Mother" later went on to develop "Pokémon".

Here's the sprite.

 

[justaway12]

The video shows Sonic transforming into Super Sonic and showing no delay when he's finished. He jumps into the air, transforms, and continues moving forward.

Umm..It does show delay, not the jump, but the transforming part takes 1 second, I may have just used a youtube timer, but it still said 1 second

If we are assuming that Bowser is aware of Sonic's speed or what he could transform into. But, in this match, the characters have their items from their games, so Sonic already has 999 rings and the Chaos Emeralds with him. And again, that video whoever linked it showed Sonic transforming under a second.

I'm aware of the choas emerald and 50 rings, that's why Bowser has the Stop Watch and Star Rod, I just meant the jump
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO-0tp1uPVI#t=2m31s
Just to be super sure, I did double click.

How long does it take to bring it out and use it?

It is about 1 second, I'll check

 

[Corrupted~X]

Wow, Long Conversation is long. I'd like to say I have something to add, but I don't, you guys are really covering everything, I thought that we'd have no need to discuss it, but after reading everything, wow. :0

 

[PowerBomb]

Well, for one thing, the Mystery Dungeon games contradict the version games.

 

[Crystanium]

Umm..It does show delay, not the jump, but the transforming part takes 1 second, I may have just used a youtube timer, but it still said 1 second

You're basing this off of the YouTube video. I did the same thing when I was checking how long it took for Samus to run at supersonic speeds, and it said two seconds. When I played Super Metroid on my Wii, I asked my brother to use the stopwatch and to start it the moment he saw Samus run. I also told him that the moment Samus flared up in blue, to stop the time. I did this more than once, and Samus would activate the Speed Booster in one second.

I've done the same thing here with Sonic more than once. The transformation is too quick that I had to pick up the moment Sonic would transform into Super Sonic. I had to pay attention to the color change and the music it plays when Sonic becomes Super Sonic. Visually, I can pick it up faster than I can hear it, because reaction time is faster visually than it is audibly. The YouTube video doesn't give the accurate time, because the transformation could be starting up between a second. For example, it could probably be at 500 milliseconds or so, which gives the illusion that the transformation is one second.

I'm aware of the choas emerald and 50 rings, that's why Bowser has the Stop Watch and Star Rod, I just meant the jump
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO-0tp1uPVI#t=2m31s
Just to be super sure, I did double click.

I thought the double click would be a good way to figure out how fast Sonic transforms. However, I have double clicked a few times to where when I started the stop watch, I stopped it before 1 millisecond could begin. That is to say, I stopped it the moment I started it, which gave 0 milliseconds. When I tested Sonic's transformation, I'd usually get no higher than 150 milliseconds, or 150/1,000. I tested it just now when Sonic jumps and transforms. He uses the transformation at the second jump in the video, and still, it wasn't even 1 second. It usually landed around the 700 or so milliseconds. It didn't pass 800 milliseconds. There are 1,000 milliseconds in 1 second.

To Diddy Kong, I won't continue with the Ness versus Mewtwo conversation for now, since we're discussing Bowser and Sonic. So maybe later.

 

[justaway12]

I'm not doubting you or anything, but I would say this:

When he is crounching in the air,and the Super Sonic sprite came

When he is a gold and stuff

http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp143/justaway12/Stuff/SuperSonicScreenShot.png
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp143/justaway12/Stuff/SonicScreenShot.png These are less blurry

Is a good comparison,

 

[Crystanium]

I'm not doubting you or anything, but I would say this:

Is a good comparison,

What seems to be the problem?

Please, feel free to use this. Click on the green arrow that is pointing up. Click on "Start" when you want to start, and click on it again when you want to stop. It keeps track of seconds and milliseconds. Pay attention to Sonic at all times and click when Sonic jumps, and then click again when he stops. See where you end up with the time. Will you get one second? I encourage everyone else to do the same. Do this more than once and keep track of the numbers you get. Then, if you're feeling bold, average it out to see what the average time was. By that I mean, let's say you got 120 milliseconds twice in five tries, and the other times you got were 150, 104, 123. Go with 120 milliseconds.

 

[justaway12]

Oops, I had another, 1 minute =x

He breaks out out it in an extra second, that is either 1-2 seconds

 

[Crystanium]

Oops, I had another, 1 minute =x

You're basing this off the YouTube time or the time in-game time, it seems. Don't. That's not an accurate way of keeping track of when Sonic transforms. Like I said before, the YouTube time or in-game time can be inaccurate, because the moment Sonic jumped into the air, the person who transformed apparently jumped in between 1 second, which gave the illusion that the transformation was actually 1 second long.

 

[Dragonbreath]

Well, Peach can turn invincible too. Starman, or even just by holding her umbrella over her head in Super Paper Mario.

 

[justaway12]

Look, another second, Dryn, from when he transformed to landed, that could either be 1-2 seconds. Or atleast colser to the 1 millisecond.

It would still add a few more milla-seconds

I doubt youtube is that inaccurate.

EDIT: I used your stopwatch mulitple times, the minimum I got was 778, I'll try again though

EDIT EDIT: 773

 

[Dragonbreath]

This Sonic vs. Bowser fight is starting to remind me of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. ZA WARUDO!

Some thoughts...

One thing that happened in Sonic 2006 (Boo! Hiss!! Get it away!) is that when two chaos controls happen at once, it doesn't freeze time, but creates a wormhole instead. Would the combination of stopwatch and chaos control have the same effect?

 

[Crystanium]

Look, another second, Dryn, from when he transformed to landed, that could either be 1-2 seconds. Or atleast colser to the 1 millisecond.

It would still add a few more milla-seconds

I doubt youtube is that inaccurate

Did he need to land? Or was that slope in the way? Here, let me show how long it took from the time he jumped to the time he landed.

First Test: 813 ms
Second Test: 1 s, 23 ms
Third Test: 996 ms
Fourth Test: 939 ms
Fifth Test: 1 s, 53 ms

This is all when Sonic jumps and then lands onto that slope.

And yes, YouTube time is inaccurate. You're ignoring the fact that the time that is used there could possibly have passed 500 or so milliseconds. If Sonic was transforming during the 500 millisecond in the YouTube video, and another 500 milliseconds passed, then you'd think it was a second long. The times that I have there are the times when Sonic jumped into the air, transformed, and then landed back on the ground. So, let's average this time. I will consider 1 second to be 1,000, since that's how many milliseconds there are in one second. So, for 1 second and 23 milliseconds, that will be 1,023 milliseconds.

First Test: 813
Second Test: 1,023
Third Test: 996
Fourth Test 939
Fifth Test: 1,053

813 + 1,023 + 996 + 939 + 1,053 = 4,824

4,824 / 5 = 964.8

So, at average from the test I just did, it took Sonic 964.8 milliseconds to jump into the air, transform, and then land on the ground. Will we all be fine with this time?

 

[justaway12]

I actually got tests like 778, actually o_O not as long, but whatever....

Wait aren't there like GIF. or sprites that transform into Super Sonic?

And he landed on the slope, yes, but that was a higher ground..

I trust you more, I guess..

 

[Crystanium]

I actually got tests like 778, actually o_O not as long, but whatever....

If I added the 778 into the numbers I was using to average, we'd end up with 933 milliseconds. I'm not sure how many times you've been doing that test, but if you want to compare yours with mine, that would be fine.

I was going with the jump. It's a bit difficult to get the accurate number, because we aren't playing the game, so we can't press both buttons at the same time. Instead, we have to rely on a video, since I don't think anyone has a Sega Genesis or a ROM here to try it out.

Wait aren't there like GIF. or sprites that transform into Super Sonic?

Most likely, but it won't show Sonic jumping into the air and landing. All we'll get is Sonic transforming into Super Sonic, and we end up with anything no higher than 150 ms.

 

[justaway12]

I did about 5-6 tests Dryn

Yeah, well, I tested the Ice Strom thing, it took
Throught the items menu:
1,187
663
1,124
1,181
1,481

1187 + 663 + 1124 + 1181 + 1481 = 5636, right? =/

5636/5= 1127.2

PRETTY sure 663 was a mess up on my part...

Not going through items:
743
977
948
843
790


743 + 977 + 948 + 843 + 790 = 4301

4301/5 = 860.2

You can test it out to, if you want...I'm not sure about this, since I think the stop watch might take longer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDVpQ-yfzJE#t=1m17s

But this is the best I could find...

I am REALLYuncertian about it, IDK, really...

 

[Crystanium]

I did about 5-6 tests Dryn

Yeah, well, I tested the Ice Strom thing, it took
Throught the items menu:
1,187
663
1,124
1,181
1,481

1187 + 663 + 1124 + 1181 + 1481 = 5636, right? =/

5636/5= 1127.2

PRETTY sure 663 was a mess up on my part...

Not going through items:
743
977
948
843
790


743 + 977 + 948 + 843 + 790 = 4301

4301/5 = 860.2

You can test it out to, if you want...I'm not sure about this, since I think the stop watch might take longer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDVpQ-yfzJE#t=1m17s

But this is the best I could find...

I am REALLYuncertian about it, IDK, really...

I'm really not sure what I would be looking for here.

I did find a video just now of a Fuzzy using the Stopwatch. I'll see how long it takes from the time it is used to the time it takes the effect, which, seems to me would be until Mario and that Yoshi fall back. I don't know if it's the same for the player.

First Test: 4,691
Second Test: 4,619
Third Test: 5,116
Fourth Test: 5,142
Fifth Test: 5,000

Total: 24,568

Divided by 5 = 4,913.6, or 4 s, 914 ms.

As I said yesterday, with the Chaos Control, if it takes the same amount of time to activate the time stop like it did when Shadow warped, it would be 9 seconds to activate. How long would it take for Bowser to become invincible? Will Bowser have the upper hand after all?

 

[justaway12]

Oh yeah, lol sorry >.<

When Mario uses that item at around 1:19 >.<

 

[Crystanium]

Oh yeah, lol sorry >.<

When Mario uses that item at around 1:19 >.<

So, the Ice Storm freezes an opponent? Are we counting the time it takes the moment we see the item appear over Mario's head to the time it takes for that flower looking thing to freeze?

 

[justaway12]

Not the shaking the wii remote thing, since that's player controlled, I'm pretty sure it takes just as much time as it takes the stop watch, since I couldn't find a stopwatch anywhere.

Just when it appears over his head and vanishes...

Sorry for the vagueness in my posts >.<

 

[Crystanium]

Not the shaking the wii remote thing, since that's player controlled, I'm pretty sure it takes just as much time as it takes the stop watch, since I couldn't find a stopwatch anywhere.

Just when it appears over his head and vanishes...

Sorry for the vagueness in my posts >.<

I'd think of shaking the Wii Remote as a charge up, kind of like Samus' Charge Beam.

 

[justaway12]

But they don't actually do it, that's why everything freeze around them when it starts up, I think

 

[Crystanium]

But they don't actually do it, that's why everything freeze around them when it starts up, I think

We wouldn't say Din's Fire is instantaneous, simply because everything around you stops when you use it in OoT. I think the charge up makes the Ice Storm more powerful the more it is charged up. From Super Mario Wiki, it says that the Ice Storm in Super Paper Mario cannot freeze enemies. It seems to have done more damage in Super Paper Mario, since it cannot freeze enemies in this game. In Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, the item had the possibility of freezing enemies.

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