Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[Crystanium]

♪ You should just say Viper, saying JLT4GOV with it means that it's him and his gaming group, (which of course I'm in). Also yes, knowing about Kirby. And since this thread is about debate, as long as he's not obvious with being biased then he shouldn't debate against impossibilities but he does have some good points. †

It's simply respect. I write everyones name in full, unless I am told that I can just abbreviate, or if they're fine with just being called this or that. In this case, if Viper JLT4GOV tells me that he doesn't mind being called Viper, I'll call him Viper.

Anyway, there's a difference between correcting someone about a character, and actually debating in favor of a character, and having reasons why said character would be advantageous. Kirby is eight inches tall. The size of Kirby or his abilities wouldn't be big enough to harm Samus to the point that Kirby would win. Samus' powered armorsuit has taken hits from bullets, missiles, bombs, lasers, forearm-mounted scythes, beam weaponry, fire, ice, poisonous atmosphere that would cripple even the strongest of warriors, as one Luminoth put it.

Samus has been punched by Thardus, a large, group of rocks that have been animated by Phazon. She has been smacked and clawed at by Ridley, hit by Ridley's tail. In fact, in the manga, Ridley kills one of the Chozo by using his tail and striking it easily through his body. Samus has been hit by Meta Ridley's Meson Bombs multiple missiles, kinetic breath weapon, and Ultrathermal Flamestrike Projector, as well as his tail, which at this time is covered by armor plating that is invulnerable to Samus' beam weapons. Samus has fought Kraid and put up with the large spikes that protrude and fire from his belly. She has also put up with Mother Brain's Hyper Beam.

Tell me now this one thing: What can Kirby put up with?

 

[meery]

Oh, and just for the heck of it, after Samus defeated Thardus, a nice sized rock, about almost the size of Samus' head, hits her helmet that she's wearing, and she looks back, not stunned. That's what I'll be seeing when Kirby decides to whip out Dragoon or Hydra.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS62zhPPTXc&feature=related 4:46
thats what I see XD

 

[§leepy God]

It's simply respect. I write everyones name in full, unless I am told that I can just abbreviate, or if they're fine with just being called this or that.

♪ Oh, I see. There's not enough members that say the full name, that's why I thought it was strange, but your point is self explanatory, I like it. :D †

♪ But as I wanted to say, I won't take part in this debate because I have to debate about six different characters, and Sonic I don't really have a clue about how strong he is, lol. †

 

[Sonic on the Rocks]

Wtf is with Ganondorf not being Ultra-God tier?

Ganondorf > Sonic > Lucas > Ness > Samus > Kirby

GANONDORF: ...CAN NOT be killed by anything but the Silver Arrows and (arguably) the Master Sword while he has the Triforce of Power. This is a proven fact, and has been demonstrated many times over the course of the Zelda series. The Silver Arrows of Zelda 1 and A Link to the Past have since become the Light Arrows, which can do no harm to him (only STUN him). I say that it is argueable that the Master Sword can kill him because, as seen in the ending of Twilight Princess, Ganondorf is able to stand and even talk while having the Master Sword impaled through his chest. It is not until the Triforce of Power leaves him that he 'dies' (presumably; he remains standing upright).

TL;DR version: If you don't have the Master Sword, Silver Arrows, or something else that "sparkles with the power to repel evil", then you cannot kill Ganondorf.

EDIT: NOOOOOO.
I accidentally the Reply button instead of the Preview.
I'll justify the rest momentairily...

 

[Lovely]

No love for Samus? );

Also is Lucas and Ness really that strong? I say this because I don't look into the Mother series that well, which is why I place them low on my list.

 

[Uffe]

No love for Samus? );

Also is Lucas and Ness really that strong? I say this because I don't look into the Mother series that well, which is why I place them low on my list.

Find _clinton and he'll pretty much tell you a lot. Also, I'd like to see the rest of what Sonic on the Rocks has to say for the other characters.

EDIT: By the way, _clinton is here on SmashBoards. He'll probably say that Ness and Lucas are stronger than Ganondorf and Samus, but I can't say I agree with that.

 

[metaXzero]

^Earthbound fans (or just _clinton) will tell you that Ness at his peak was equal (or close) to Giygas, a cosmic destroyer entity in their universe, and that Ness > everything Nintendo in canon battle.

Personally, IDK.

 

[Crystanium]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS62zhPPTXc&feature=related 4:46
thats what I see XD

SSBB is not canon.

Wtf is with Ganondorf not being Ultra-God tier?

Ganondorf > Sonic > Lucas > Ness > Samus > Kirby

Sonic, Lucas, and Ness are all mortals. I doubt they're stronger than Samus.

GANONDORF: ...CAN NOT be killed by anything but the Silver Arrows and (arguably) the Master Sword while he has the Triforce of Power.

Ganondorf can be beaten with the Biggoron Sword. Play The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and use the Biggoron Sword against Ganondorf next time. Things that can repel evil drop Ganondorf's defense, which means he can be be taken down. Ganondorf's spot will not change, though. He's still going to be on top, only because he returns.

Ganondorf is able to stand and even talk while having the Master Sword impaled through his chest. It is not until the Triforce of Power leaves him that he 'dies' (presumably; he remains standing upright).

Does the Triforce leave Ganondorf and then he dies, or does he start dying, and the Triforce of Power leaves him?

 

[bobson]

How in the hell does Ness beat Mewtwo?
Big whoop, you have PSI. Mewtwo mind controls you before you even know he's there and it's over.

 

[Uffe]

How in the hell does Ness beat Mewtwo?
Big whoop, you have PSI. Mewtwo mind controls you before you even know he's there and it's over.

Both have PSI, thanks. Mewtwo may have that ability, but I wouldn't think it's so easy for him to just enter Ness or Lucas' head and take over. After all, he could have done that with the other Pokémon in the first Pokémon movie just to capture them, right? Yeah, I wouldn't say taking over someone else with the ability of PSI is so easy.

 

[metaXzero]

Lucas's bro couldn't even kill their dad with their shared strongest PSI attack and he's just an ordinary guy who fights with only a stick. And I don't think their is a tremendous gap between Claus and Lucas.

IMO, I'd put Lucas below Kirby. I think the others beat the 2.

 

[§leepy God]

Ganondorf > Sonic > Lucas > Ness > Samus > Kirby

♪ Besides Ness being lower than Lucas, I'll agree with this list here. †

 

[Sonic on the Rocks]

Ganondorf > Sonic > Lucas > Ness (?) Samus > Kirby

GANONDORF: ...CAN NOT be killed by anything but the Silver Arrows and (arguably) the Master Sword while he has the Triforce of Power.
This is a proven fact, and has been demonstrated many times over the course of the Zelda series. The Silver Arrows of Zelda 1 and A Link to the Past have since become the Light Arrows, which can do no harm to him (only STUN him). I say that it is argueable that the Master Sword can kill him because, as seen in the ending of Twilight Princess, Ganondorf is able to stand and even talk while having the Master Sword impaled through his chest. It is not until the Triforce of Power leaves him that he 'dies' (presumably; he remains standing upright).

TL;DR version: If you don't have the Master Sword, Silver Arrows, or something else that "sparkles with the power to repel evil", then you cannot kill Ganondorf. It's that simple.

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SONIC: ...Is INVINCIBLE while transformed into Super Sonic.
It has been proven time and time again that the only thing that can hurt Super Sonic is another Super Form (E.G., Super Ix). The transformation can be achieved in seconds and grants him Supersonic Speeds (more than he already had), the ability to fly, and makes him Invincible. The transformation lasts, at most, a total of 83 minutes and 15 seconds (assuming Sonic has 999 rings, losing them at a rate of 1 ring per 5 seconds ala Sonic Unleashed). The greatest example of Super Sonic's speed and power are in the Sonic Unleashed opening (see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8IxgooL480, skip to 1:30 if you're impatient). He literally plows through Eggman's fleet, anhiliating anything in his way. And, if the backdrop of Earth is any indication, he could very well be traveling at speeds beyond Mach 10.
I'm not even going to go into normal Sonic's powers at the moment, that's pretty much it.

TL;DR version: Super Sonic is like trying to outrun a nuclear missle for 16 minutes, except the missle is much smaller than you (Sonic is only 3 feet 3 inches, 100 centimeters) and can stop time. The only thing I can think of other characters doing to him is Samus slamming him with a Darkburst, but he's far too fast to be hit in the first place. The only thing preventing him from being top is the fact that Ganondor is virtually unkillable.
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Lucas: ...Is virtually the same as Ness, but has a few key differences.
Namely the fact that Lucas's defensive game is better than Ness's. He can last longer. With Powershields, a wider range of PSI, and a unique health system, he's just plain hard to kill. Lucas and Ness have a special "scrolling health" system. When they take damage, they don't feel it all at once. Instead of a health bar, they have a meter that goes down like an Odometer (the thing on your dashboard that measures milage). When they take damage, the meter scrolls. While their health goes down (even if they've taken Mortal Damage), they can still defend themselves, attack, guard, or heal their HP. If they're guarding, the gauge scrolls slower, letting them live longer until their next action. Basically, killing them is a long and frustrating process. What sets Lucas appart from Ness, however, is his options. Lucas's health scrolls slower then Ness's by itself, making him live longer already. Powershields and PSI Shields lessen damage taken by half, along with dealing damage to your attacker in return (even from projectiles, or laser beams). They both have PSI Lifeup, a skill which allows them to fully restore their HP (so long as they have the Psychic power to preform it). In addition, Lucas has Seven 'Mementos' given to him by important characters in his game (no spoilers). In the event Lucas looses all of his health and passes out, these will revive him in full.

TL;DR version: Lucas is simply the better defender, able to last longer in battle. His endurance will allow him to keep pounding his opponents until they loose, unless of course your opponent is a Super Sayian hedgehog or named Ganondorf.
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Ness: ...Is virtually the same as Lucas, but lacks his endurance.
Ness just cannot last as long as Lucas can. Although they both have virtually the same powers, techniques, and weaponry, Lucas lasts longer. Ness doesn't have any Mementos to revive him, or a rusty Odometer. He does, however, have Powershields and PSI Shields, which is enough to keep him alive long enough to defeat anyone below him on the list.

TL;DR version: Oh come on, it wasn't even that long. Read it. Now.
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Samus: ...Has a massive range of weaponry, firepower, and defences.
Her power suit (or whatever suit she may be wearing at the time) is a virtual stronghold, the ultimate weapon AND armor. It has a variety of upgrades. Its immune to intense temperatures (hot or cold). It can curl up into a ball only a few feet across. There's the Speed Booster, letting her accelerate past the speed of sound (letting her keep up with Sonic and Kirby, although Super Sonic outclasses her). Then there's the Space Jump, which lets her jump indefinitely through some crazy space technology. And the famous Screw Attack, which surrounds her in a devestating energy field that leaves her almost invincible and kills many enemies upon contact (combined with the Space Jump), this leaves deadly implications). Samus has quite the resivor of health as well. Her more standard weaponry includes an infinite supply of Bombs, along with a large quantity of beams (most stackable, all veristale, and several that home in and go through almost anything). In addition, Samus has a limited supply of:
Powerbombs: These are an upgrade to Samus's bombs. They create a massive explosion (not unlike Crash Kirby) that destroys most enemies in one hit. It fills the entire screen.
Missles: Basic missles that do a fair amount of damage. Some can freeze enemies, and some home in on targets.
Super Missles: Basically missles, only bigger, faster, and with more bang for your buck.

TL;DR version: Samus basically outclasses everyone in sheer versitality (except perhaps Kirby) and pure survivablilty. However, she can't kill Ganondorf, and she cannot get through Super Sonic.

PLEASE NOTE: I've already reconsidered Samus's placement, remembering Samus's shield-piercing beams. These could get through Ness and Lucas's Powershields, leaving their match outcomes uncertain. I don't know if they would be able to survive long enough to defeat Samus.
Consider her either between Ness and Lucas or above Lucas.
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Kirby: ...Although he's a SUPER TUFF PINK PUFF (I can't believe I said that), he can't stand up to the 5 Smashers above him (Any short jokes percieved are unitentional, but I'm going to keep it like that anyway because they made me laugh).
His Copy Esscences never leave due to the Copy Esscences Deluxe from Kirby Super Star. Although he's very short (only 8 inches tall, according to his official character profile on Nintendo of Japan's website), he can move very fast on his flying machines (and as Jet Kirby) and can dish out ALOT of hurt. Kirby moves at a top speed of 800 miles per hour (rough estimate based off of Kirby Air Ride info) on the Hydra, his Air Ride machine. While flying about on whatever vehicle he's in, he ususally can keep an ability to punish the opponent with while he flies. In addition, Rock and Metal Kirby are almost invincible, as is Mirror Kirby's shield. However, they can still be crushed.

TL;DR version: Kirby is a GREAT character, but he's just not as good as everyone above him. Sorry, my little pink friend.

If you have any issues with my analysis, just quote it in a response.

 

[Crystanium]

Nice summaries, but Samus can run at supersonic speeds, which means she can run from 1.2 mach to 4.6. This means that she runs faster than the speed of sound, but not as fast as hypersonic speed. I'm glad you brought up the Screw Attack as well. It does make Samus near invincible. In Super Metroid, when Samus used the Screw Attack, whenever any creature fired beams at Samus while she was using the Screw Attack, it would not stop her from performing the Screw Attack, and she wouldn't take any damage.

The only beam that could stop Samus would be the Hyper Beam, which is only possible to create if you're Mother Brain, who likely got this energy from the Super Metroid, or if you have the Super Metroid land on you and restore your energy. The Super Metroid would only aid Samus, as Samus was the first to be seen by it, and thus thought Samus was its mother. I'll reluctantly have Sonic above Samus in the tier list, but only because he is invulnerable at this time.

Samus' Power Suit is modular in nature, which means it can acquire anything. It acquired the Phazon from the Omega Pirate after the Omega Pirate fell on her, increasing her defense dramatically. Phazon, when hardened, is very, very durable. Also, the Energy Tanks. In each game, Samus was given a set of Energy Tanks. The most that has been shown is 20 in Metroid Fusion. However, I believe that the only reason why Samus is holding 20 is because that's all there is in the game.

As for Lucas, he may have psychic abilities, but these are useless against Samus if he can't catch her with them. Lucas is from an RPG game, the battle isn't going to work like one. They aren't going to be fighting, and Samus is just standing there, and they're not going to be taking turns to attack each other. Samus doesn't have to be near Lucas to attack him. Let's be honest here. A beam that has a combination of the Long, Power, Ice, Wave, Spazer, Nova, and Plasma would be fatal in one hit, especially against someone who is lacking protective armor. Lucas would be taking mortal damage. And even if his life goes down slowly like that of a scroll, it's still not going to save him. Even if he's revived, so what? Samus would just repeat the process.

Now, you might tell me that Lucas can increase his defense, both physical and PSI defense, but tell me something. Even if Lucas raises this up in the game, does he still take damage? If he does, then I really don't see how that's going to serve him well. His weapons aren't going to be a threat to Samus, either. I don't see how Ness and Lucas would be above Samus in the tier list. All Lucas really has for him are his defenses and high HP. Physical attacks and weapons aren't going to be of good use. Samus also has another advantage here. The Scan Visor will give Samus information on how to take down Samus, and she's taken down enemies stronger than her. Dark Samus would be an example.

 

[metaXzero]

Sonic on the Rocks. You say Kirby can still be crushed. As in crushed by the enviroment like most platformer characters?

Couldn't Super Sonic be crushed in the 2D Sonic games? He easn't immune to dying from bottomless pits, crush areas, and Eggman's Squeeze robot in Sonic 3.

Ness and Lucas' repel physical and PSI based attacks. What if they are neither?

 

[JOE!]

wait, mewtwo has a loss?

B-S

he simply thinks and people blow up, Ness cant counter that

 

[Sonic on the Rocks]

Find _clinton and he'll pretty much tell you a lot. Also, I'd like to see the rest of what Sonic on the Rocks has to say for the other characters.

EDIT: By the way, _clinton is here on SmashBoards. He'll probably say that Ness and Lucas are stronger than Ganondorf and Samus, but I can't say I agree with that.

_clinton generally just gave everyone (particuarly me) a headache in the last thread. Too much theory crafting and an unwillingness to listen to reason did that. He did have useful information, but it got REALLY annoying after awhile.

Ness and Lucas aren't bad at all, but they're not unbeatable.

^Earthbound fans (or just _clinton) will tell you that Ness at his peak was equal (or close) to Giygas, a cosmic destroyer entity in their universe, and that Ness > everything Nintendo in canon battle.

Personally, IDK.

False; it's literally impossible to beat Giygas in Earthbound. The only only way to win is to have Paula pray.
Giygas is pretty much > Galacticus, Chuck Norris, and Ganondorf combined.

Sonic, Lucas, and Ness are all mortals. I doubt they're stronger than Samus.

And Samus...isn't? I knew she was part Metroid and part Chozo, but immortal is new.

Ganondorf can be beaten with the Biggoron Sword. Play The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and use the Biggoron Sword against Ganondorf next time. Things that can repel evil drop Ganondorf's defense, which means he can be be taken down. Ganondorf's spot will not change, though. He's still going to be on top, only because he returns.

According to canon (and I can literally get Game Script that supports this at your request), Ganondorf can't be killed by anything that does not repel evil. Even if you can hurt him, you can't kill him. Ocarnia of Time itself supports this. At the end of the game, even after having an entire castle collapse on him, hacked and slashed by Link, and being impaled through the face by the Master Sword, Ganon still needs to be restrained by Zelda's light magic and sealed away by the Sages.

Does the Triforce leave Ganondorf and then he dies, or does he start dying, and the Triforce of Power leaves him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87u1AarcfQA
Ganondorf, after being impaled through the chest by the Master Sword, still manages to get up and threaten them one last time. He doesn't look like he's dying, but as soon as the Triforce of Power fades from his hands, he stares at it in disbelief for a few moments before dying (apparently).
He was obviously in intense pain, though.

How in the hell does Ness beat Mewtwo?
Big whoop, you have PSI. Mewtwo mind controls you before you even know he's there and it's over.

Sure, in the Anime.

I don't. One hit from the Plasma Beam and Sonic is dead.

Sonic could probably transform before the Plasma Beam hit him. If not, he stops time or teleports with Chaos Control first to get farther away.

Sonic on the Rocks. You say Kirby can still be crushed. As in crushed by the enviroment like most platformer characters?

Couldn't Super Sonic be crushed in the 2D Sonic games? He isn't immune to dying from bottomless pits, crush areas, and Eggman's Squeeze robot in Sonic 3.

I don't think the average character could apply enough pressure to kill Kirby, but its possible.

Super Sonic could be crushed in the early Sonic games. This has since been contradicted. Super characters are far, far stronger then their normal selves. Shadow the Hedgehog was able to lift a Comet while super in his game. Super Sonic has plowed through asteroids and huge, metal battleships unaffected. They're obviously very durable. It doesn't really make much sense to have them crush-able. Normal Sonic would be a different story, of course.

Bottomless pits? You're not serious, are you? You realize Super Sonic can fly?

I don't remember the "Squeeze robot", but I do know that when Eggman's giant machine in the Sonic Unleashed opening tried to crush Sonic in it's hands, it got its arms blown off when Super Sonic transformed.

Ness and Lucas' repel physical and PSI based attacks. What if they are neither?

I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure PSI shields could deflect projectiles. I'm not sure about tangible projectiles (like an Arrow or Missle), and I'm confident they could reflect energy-based projectiles (like a laser).

I'd feel better if someone with more Mother/EarthBound experience could confirm this.

 

[bobson]

Both have PSI, thanks.

No, Mewtwo does not have PSI.

Mewtwo may have that ability, but I wouldn't think it's so easy for him to just enter Ness or Lucas' head and take over. After all, he could have done that with the other Pokémon in the first Pokémon movie just to capture them, right? Yeah, I wouldn't say taking over someone else with the ability of PSI is so easy.

Ness is a human, not a Pokemon.
Even if Mewtwo couldn't control him, Ness is stuck with the reaction speed of a human body, while Mewtwo can do everything at the speed of thought. Ness can go ahead and spam PK Rockin' 'til he runs out of PP--Mewtwo will teleport to the other side of the continent before Ness can blink, and then come back and blow up his head by looking at him. Maybe he'll go easy on Ness and just throw him into the sun.

 

[Crystanium]

Sonic on the Rocks, I don't care too much about the match between Samus and Ganondorf. There wasn't any reason to reply, because even if I was wrong, I was still agreeing that Ganondorf would remain victor. This has been a position I held long ago when I was little. Samus is my favorite character, but I don't think she would beat Ganondorf. I said the battle would be very, very close, but Ganondorf would win. I brought up Samus' Light Beam for a reason, though. It's pure light. It repels evil and is very effective against dark creatures. This would allow Samus to at least attack Ganondorf. The problem for Ganondorf is, Can he catch Samus?

Also, I wasn't saying that Samus wasn't mortal. However, she does have a powered armor suit, which protects her from taking hits that would otherwise be fatal to others.

 

[metaXzero]

Only enviroments have been shown to 1-hit Kirby. Characters (no matter how big) and enviroments manipulated by characters just take a single bar.

Kirby can fly too, yet botomless pit's kill him too. Ness and Lucas have never been exposed to one and Samus just takes damage and reappear where she fell.

In Sonic 3 (not Sonic 3 & Knuckles) the final boss is a ship with a pair of hands capable of grabbing even Super Sonic and squeezing the rings out of him (or speeding the up the decrease rate).

 

[Uffe]

No, Mewtwo does not have PSI.


Ness is a human, not a Pokemon.
Even if Mewtwo couldn't control him, Ness is stuck with the reaction speed of a human body, while Mewtwo can do everything at the speed of thought. Ness can go ahead and spam PK Rockin' 'til he runs out of PP--Mewtwo will teleport to the other side of the continent before Ness can blink, and then come back and blow up his head by looking at him. Maybe he'll go easy on Ness and just throw him into the sun.

Mewtwo does have PSI. If you want to call it psychokinesis, we can call it that as well. Technically it's still PK, which is PSI. By the way, did you know that Ness can teleport? Yeah, he has to run really fast or run around in a circle at high speeds. Did you ever notice Melees intro? Ness pops out of nowhere, skids his feet on the asphalt and viola!

Also, you bring up the usage of "PP". Mewtwo also has that. All it takes is a butterfly to relax Ness and all his PP is regained. In what episode did Mewtwo ever blow heads off with just a stare? He may be the strongest Pokemon, but he has limits. As for your last sentence, now you're pulling **** out of your ***. I'm not sure I can take you seriously now.

@ Sonic on the Rocks: Are you seriously bringing up odometers? I'm aware both Ness and Lucas can take mortal damage and still health themselves, but when you're basing an odometer from 1994 to one made in 2006, saying one goes slower than the other which means one will last longer, that just sounds silly. No game is the same.

 

[metaXzero]

Ness's Teleport isn't really combat appliable. It needs a running start and Ness comes out of it still running. And if ANYTHING is in front of him, he stops and is stunned while turning charcoal black.

 

[Uffe]

Ness's Teleport isn't really combat appliable. It needs a running start and Ness comes out of it still running. And if ANYTHING is in front of him, he stops and is stunned while turning charcoal black.

You do know that Ness has another way of using his Teleport, right? As for this not really being combat applicable, I was merely bringing up that Ness is capable of running at high speeds as well.

 

[Crystanium]

Samus just takes damage and reappear where she fell.

Only in the Prime games, but not in all the side-scrolling games. It's also unrealistic to fall from an area, take damage, and then reappear to the same spot from which you fell. I'm going by the side-scrolling games.

 

[Uffe]

Okay, here's my new list. Not much changed, but I'm still going to go Ganondorf, Samus, Sonic, Ness/Lucas and Kirby. Sonic's there just because he can turn into Super Sonic and be invincible.

 

[metaXzero]

You do know that Ness has another way of using his Teleport, right? As for this not really being combat applicable, I was merely bringing up that Ness is capable of running at high speeds as well.

Running in circles? Still needs a running start with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in his way.

Only in the Prime games, but not in all the side-scrolling games. It's also unrealistic to fall from an area, take damage, and then reappear to the same spot from which you fell. I'm going by the side-scrolling games.

2D Metroids have NO bottom-less pits. And don't try and argue realism in this discussion. Not only does the Prime example contradict nothing, I figured we abandoned realism when athromorphic hedgehogs became invunerable and capable of super-speed and flight while 8 inch balls of fluff became capable of destroying planets.

Funny note: everytime s character from another Nintendo franchise enters Kirby's world, they are resized to not be much taller (Mario and co and Samus).

 

[Uffe]

Running in circles? Still needs a running start with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in his way.

Don't make it sound like blocks are in Ness' way or that little flowers stop his movement. Hell, I don't even know why we're discussing this since Mewtwo is out of this list anyway. What's done is done and there is no turning back now.

 

[metaXzero]

^All a character has to do is put something as strong as a bat or child (or themselves) in Ness's way and no teleport for Ness's. Even if Ness succeeds, all he can do is run away or comeback to a neutral position.

IDK. Why'd ya bring up Ness's Teleport again? It pales vs. Mewtwo.

 

[Sonic on the Rocks]

Sonic on the Rocks, I don't care too much about the match between Samus and Ganondorf. There wasn't any reason to reply, because even if I was wrong, I was still agreeing that Ganondorf would remain victor. This has been a position I held long ago when I was little. Samus is my favorite character, but I don't think she would beat Ganondorf.

Alright, I just feel OCD about these things.
I

brought up Samus' Light Beam for a reason, though. It's pure light. It repels evil and is very effective against dark creatures. This would allow Samus to at least attack Ganondorf. The problem for Ganondorf is, Can he catch Samus?

I remember the Light Beam. There was quite some controversy about that on the last thread. Ganondorf can catch Samus, he can teleport.

Only enviroments have been shown to 1-hit Kirby. Characters (no matter how big) and enviroments manipulated by characters just take a single bar.

You do realize that if, say, a stone pillar coming down on Kirby can kill him by crushing him to death, then a character who can apply similar force would logically be able to do the same?

Kirby can fly too, yet botomless pit's kill him too. Ness and Lucas have never been exposed to one and Samus just takes damage and reappear where she fell.

The point being that it's not canonically possible for Super Sonic to be killed by a "bottomless pit". He could fly out of it, though this was not an option in the 2D games.

In Sonic 3 (not Sonic 3 & Knuckles) the final boss is a ship with a pair of hands capable of grabbing even Super Sonic and squeezing the rings out of him (or speeding the up the decrease rate).

I'll look into it, but Eggman has designed machines to specifically deal with Super Sonic several times. Most recently the device that removed the Chaos Emeralds from Super Sonic in Sonic Unleashed. Eggman is a genius, and his grandfather was one of the top researchers of the Chaos Emeralds. It wouldn't be hard for him to design a machine that could drain the Rings that Sonic has absorbed.

@ Sonic on the Rocks: Are you seriously bringing up odometers? I'm aware both Ness and Lucas can take mortal damage and still health themselves, but when you're basing an odometer from 1994 to one made in 2006, saying one goes slower than the other which means one will last longer, that just sounds silly. No game is the same.

You have a point, but the other advantages still put Lucas ahead.

Okay, here's my new list. Not much changed, but I'm still going to go Ganondorf, Samus, Sonic, Ness/Lucas and Kirby. Sonic's there just because he can turn into Super Sonic and be invincible.

How does Samus stop Super Sonic?

^All a character has to do is put something as strong as a bat or child (or themselves) in Ness's way and no teleport for Ness's. Even if Ness succeeds, all he can do is run away or comeback to a neutral position.

He knocks them out of the way or avoids them?

IDK. Why'd ya bring up Ness's Teleport again? It pales vs. Mewtwo.

If you're going by such stupid limitations as a bat preventing Ness's teleport, then Mewtwo would only be able to teleport to the nearest Pokemon Center.

Apparently you missed this:

Hell, I don't even know why we're discussing this since Mewtwo is out of this list anyway. What's done is done and there is no turning back now.

Funny note: everytime s character from another Nintendo franchise enters Kirby's world, they are resized to not be much taller (Mario and co and Samus).

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/nom/0003/miryoku/index.html
Take this website. Run it through a translator if you need to.
This is Kirby's official profile on Nintendo of Japan's website. When translated, it lists his height ("dimensions") as 'About 20 cm'. This is equivelant to 8 inches. Kirby is 8 inches tall, Nintendo itself states this. We're not fighting in Kirby's world, whatever happens there is irrelevant.

 

[metaXzero]

Stone Pillars OHKO Kirby in 64, yet similar things just take a bar of life in other Kirby games (and anything alive applying that same force as well).

I've known Kirby's height for years. I just thought it was funny how other Nintendo characters shrink apparently when they go to Dreamland.

Another funny note: Metroids are incapable of draining Kirby.

 

[Uffe]

Stone Pillars OHKO Kirby in 64, yet similar things just take a bar of life in other Kirby games (and anything alive applying that same force as well).

I've known Kirby's height for years. I just thought it was funny how other Nintendo characters shrink apparently when they go to Dreamland.

Another funny note: Metroids are incapable of draining Kirby.

It's called a cameo. Cameo =/= Not canon.

@ Sonic on the Rocks: Your response to the teleportation made me laugh.

Ness

PSI Rockin'
"Ness' special PSI that is named for his favorite thing. It effects all enemies on the battle screen and decreases one enemy's Psychic Shield strength by 1."

PSI Flash
Enemies suffer from crying, numbness, feeling strange or they become unconscious. In Mother 3, may cause paralysis.

Healing
Recover from a sunstroke, cold, sleepiness, poison, nausea, crying, feeling strange, numbness, diamondize and unconsciousness.

Life-up
Restores HP obviously.

Hypnosis
Obvious.

Paralysis
Makes an enemy numb, unable to move.

Shield
Reduces damage from enemies.

Teleport
Teleports of course.

That's with Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Sigma and Omega. As for Lucas, can't say I've played Mother 3 completely through. I still think that Ness and Lucas are pretty even, even if Lucas is more defensive.

As for Sonic vs Samus, Sonic's Super Sonic ability eventually runs down. Samus is still able to run up to 4.6 Mach speed. Once Sonic runs out of his Super Sonic ability, Samus would have a better chance. But even so, what abilities does Sonic have that can do harm to Samus?

 

[bobson]

Mewtwo does have PSI. If you want to call it psychokinesis, we can call it that as well. Technically it's still PK, which is PSI.

No it isn't. It's psychokinesis. PSI is not psychokinesis; it's PSI. That is why we call PSI PSI and psychokinesis psychokinesis.

By the way, did you know that Ness can teleport? Yeah, he has to run really fast or run around in a circle at high speeds. Did you ever notice Melees intro? Ness pops out of nowhere, skids his feet on the asphalt and viola!

So? Mewtwo teleports instantly. Ness has to get up speed. And even if Ness does try it, Mewtwo can just teleport right into him and whoops, he stops.

In what episode did Mewtwo ever blow heads off with just a stare? He may be the strongest Pokemon, but he has limits. As for your last sentence, now you're pulling **** out of your ***. I'm not sure I can take you seriously now.

Mewtwo, canonically, can force an entire lake and spring underground just by thinking about it (and I'm pretty sure he's also levitated an entire island before, but I can't find a reference for it). Blowing a head off or flinging a small child into space isn't any harder.

Oh, and Mewtwo can also erase your mind. It would probably suck for Ness to forget all his PSI right before the battle.

 

[metaXzero]

^"Cameo =/= not canon" means Cameo = canon lol

But anyway, I could be technical and say Nintendo never said that Mario, Luigi, Peach, Birdo, Samus, and the Metroids appearances were not canon. Besides Kirby's size, it technically contradicts nothing.

 

[Uffe]

Nowhere in the Metroid series does it ever mention Samus landing on Popstar. That's pretty much what Kirby's Dream Land 3 was full of. It even had R.O.B. in the game. In I believe Pokemon Stadium 2, there was a cameo of F-Zero being on Gold/Silver's television. In The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening, I believe there were multiple Kirby's in the game that could not be harmed by Link's attacks. There were also Goombas and that Chompy dog on the chain.

Another game would be Gordo being in Super Mario Land 2: Six Golden Coins. Basically a cameo is either there for people to notice something or there because the game designer probably thought it'd be an awesome idea. Super Smash Bros. is a cameo.

 

[metaXzero]

That doesn't render it non-canon. To render the event in Kirby 3 non-canon, it has to either be stated as such by the creators or it has to contradict a non-retconned fact in Metroid. It does neither. Not saying it can't be a cameo, but that can't be proven currently.

Pokemon F-Zero: TV show?
Link's Awakening= dream. Though Goombas are in the Oracle series.

 

[Crystanium]

2D Metroids have NO bottom-less pits. And don't try and argue realism in this discussion. Not only does the Prime example contradict nothing, I figured we abandoned realism when athromorphic hedgehogs became invunerable and capable of super-speed and flight while 8 inch balls of fluff became capable of destroying planets.

Let's get something straight here, sweet cakes. The only reason why Samus gets injured and reappears in the Prime series, which was first introduced in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, is because there is nothing below for the game to recognize that, "Hey, Samus would fall continuously through the ground until something happened." In Metroid Prime, if you had Action Replay and gave yourself the ability to fly, you could fly over to the otherside of the walls. If you let go, you'd fall forever. This had to be dealt with in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, and Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, because you were going to be within the environment, and if you fell off, you would not have any way to return.

Funny note: everytime s character from another Nintendo franchise enters Kirby's world, they are resized to not be much taller (Mario and co and Samus).

Cameos aren't canon. Funny that.

Alright, I just feel OCD about these things.
II remember the Light Beam. There was quite some controversy about that on the last thread. Ganondorf can catch Samus, he can teleport.

Ganondorf will have to be quicker than that. In-game doesn't show how far Ganondorf can teleport, let alone how fast or how accurate and precise. Samus can run mach 4.6, since anything higher would be hypersonic speed, and the Speed Booster allows Samus to only run at supersonic speeds. It's not like Ganondorf is just going to appear and Samus run directly into him. Although, if that happened, Ganondorf would get knocked back. The Speed Booster kills anything or anyone who is in Samus' way when she's running at supersonic speeds.

 

[metaXzero]

Let's get something straight here, sweet cakes. The only reason why Samus gets injured and reappears in the Prime series, which was first introduced in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, is because there is nothing below for the game to recognize that, "Hey, Samus would fall continuously through the ground until something happened." In Metroid Prime, if you had Action Replay and gave yourself the ability to fly, you could fly over to the otherside of the walls. If you let go, you'd fall forever. This had to be dealt with in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, and Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, because you were going to be within the environment, and if you fell off, you would not have any way to return.



Cameos aren't canon. Funny that.



Ganondorf will have to be quicker than that. In-game doesn't show how far Ganondorf can teleport, let alone how fast or how accurate and precise. Samus can run mach 4.6, since anything higher would be hypersonic speed, and the Speed Booster allows Samus to only run at supersonic speeds. It's not like Ganondorf is just going to appear and Samus run directly into him. Although, if that happened, Ganondorf would get knocked back. The Speed Booster kills anything or anyone who is in Samus' way when she's running at supersonic speeds.

I know why game-wise the "teleport after falling into Bottom-less" is implemented. But you technically can't prove that isn't canon to Samus. The first time she was introduced to pits, her reaction is to teleport to the top while taking damage. Action Replay feats don't count and even if you could get across MP: 1 walls without AR to fall forever, MP2: (and 3) are the later games.

Technically, you can't prove they are just cameos. Funny that. It's like technically, you can't prove Giygas=Giegue because officially, we never got Mother 1 (Earthbound/ Earthbound Zero), they have different names and appearances, and the Mother 2 tagline "Giyg strikes back" or "Giyg's counter attack" was changed to "The War against Giygas".

 

[Crystanium]

I know why game-wise the "teleport after falling into Bottom-less" is implemented. But you technically can't prove that isn't canon to Samus. The first time she was introduced to pits, her reaction is to teleport to the top while taking damage.

It's not, otherwise she would be taking damage in Metroid 2: The Return of Samus, Super Metroid, and Metroid Fusion. And there is a deep fall in Metroid 2: The Return of Samus. Samus doesn't take any damage. Someone who possesses the ability to jump higher than a normal human being, but gets injured if that sameself person comes back to land on the ground from which he jumped, has a pretty useless ability. That's like saying that form of the Space Jump is canon. The only reason you get two jumps is because if you had multiple jumps, you could skip a lot of things.

Action Replay feats don't count and even if you could get across MP: 1 walls without AR to fall forever, MP2: (and 3) are the later games.

By whose authority? You're missing the point. In Metroid Prime, if you jumped over the wall, you'd fall forever. Since Retro Studios doesn't want you to fall forever if you happen to jump or walk off where there isn't another platform to land on, it resets you instantly. It doesn't matter how later the games are. The years aren't that far apart, anyway. This isn't the only game, either. In one of the Bond games, in a snowy area, you can have the police car ram right into you and get you to an area you shouldn't even be on. If you happen to drive off a certain way, you continue to fall and fall and fall until the time runs out.

Technically, you can't prove they are just cameos.

Yes I can. Samus has never been to Dreamland. She's 6'3", not 12". It's not canonical. Heck, that's like saying Samus met Mario before in Super Mario RPG, just because she makes an appearance in the game, and if you talk to her, she says, "I'm resting up before I fight Mother Brain."

Funny that. It's like technically, you can't prove Giygas=Giegue because officially, we never got Mother 1 (Earthbound/ Earthbound Zero), they have different names and appearances, and the Mother 2 tagline "Giyg strikes back" or "Giyg's counter attack" was changed to "The War against Giygas".

This has got to be the worst analogy, and it's irrelevant to canon. English speakers call Alucard, Alucard, while the Japanese call him Arukado. Poe-tay-toe. Pah-tah-toe.

 

[Uffe]

I'm pretty sure that it's still Giygas. You get Starman Jr. in both games, Giegue is translated to Giygas. He tells Ninten that they'll meet again. Of course probably 10 years later or something Giygas returns. Ninten being 12 in the game, he's most likely 22, which is odd now that I think about it. Especially since Ness is 13. WTF? :S Anyway, I decided to throw that out since you brought it up. Now back to the regular discussion.

 

[metaXzero]

It's not, otherwise she would be taking damage in Metroid 2: The Return of Samus, Super Metroid, and Metroid Fusion. And there is a deep fall in Metroid 2: The Return of Samus. Samus doesn't take any damage. Someone who possesses the ability to jump higher than a normal human being, but gets injured if that sameself person comes back to land on the ground from which he jumped, has a pretty useless ability. That's like saying that form of the Space Jump is canon. The only reason you get two jumps is because if you had multiple jumps, you could skip a lot of things.



By whose authority? You're missing the point. In Metroid Prime, if you jumped over the wall, you'd fall forever. Since Retro Studios doesn't want you to fall forever if you happen to jump or walk off where there isn't another platform to land on, it resets you instantly. It doesn't matter how later the games are. The years aren't that far apart, anyway. This isn't the only game, either. In one of the Bond games, in a snowy area, you can have the police car ram right into you and get you to an area you shouldn't even be on. If you happen to drive off a certain way, you continue to fall and fall and fall until the time runs out.



Yes I can. Samus has never been to Dreamland. She's 6'3", not 12". It's not canonical. Heck, that's like saying Samus met Mario before in Super Mario RPG, just because she makes an appearance in the game, and if you talk to her, she says, "I'm resting up before I fight Mother Brain."



This has got to be the worst analogy, and it's irrelevant to canon. English speakers call Alucard, Alucard, while the Japanese call him Arukado. Poe-tay-toe. Pah-tah-toe.

Where in Metroid Prime does she take damage from long falls? Bottom-less pits hurt her, but long falls where she hits the ground do no damage. The 2D Metroid's have no pits, therefore no pain.

If you are seriously going to use AR to justify something, we might as well make everyone invunerable, super fast, and capable of high-speed flight. Do you want that?

You don't have an official statement. Therefore you can't prove it non-canon.

Thing is, Japan got Giyg who got 2 games, we got got Giygas who has one. Giyg was countering or getting his revenge, but Giygas was just declaring war. You have no interviews saying they are the same. Mother 2 got Giyg from Mother 1 while Earthbound got Giygas, a seemingly new alien with no prior appearances.

EDIT: Uffe. Earthbound NES (Earthbound Zero) was never released. And there, the alien was called Giegue. Since Giygas is not taking revenge, isn't confirmed to be the same as Giegue, and looks much different, you can make the case that they are different.