Data "Smash Ain't no Joke" - Little Mac Matchup Discussion Thread

[shinhed-echi]

Welp, double posting :X. The link matchup discussion is now closed. I gave it much more time than I meant to.

If anyone has any suggestions for the next matchup discussion, please go ahead and let me know! I'll try to get one together soon.

I still can't beat him. To say the least, I prefer the matchup because that's just how bad I suck against Shulk as Little Mac.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

You Mac Mains, the PAC boards essentially say your their easiest MU and that it may be something like 75:25,
Wanna share your thoughts?
http://smashboards.com/threads/best-matchups.417834/page-2

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

Hey guys, the next matchup discussion thread is posted! Please give input if you have any. Decided to go with Mario this time due to a lot of mac players wanting to discuss it, and having a hard time with the matchup. Lets make this a good discussion!

http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-analysis-5-mario.419562/

 

[CBO0tz]

Hey guys, just wondering do you think that is a good counter for ..? There's no known counter for him so far, but I think Mac's armor might be really useful for stuff like his D-air. Your guys thoughts?

 

[TrevyTrev]

Having trouble against DDD and Meta Knight. Not particularly good matchups for little mac so any help would be nice.

 

[DunnoBro]

Hey guys, just wondering do you think that is a good counter for ..? There's no known counter for him so far, but I think Mac's armor might be really useful for stuff like his D-air. Your guys thoughts?

His smashes won't beat yoshi's dair. It's about even

 

[jet56]

His smashes won't beat yoshi's dair. It's about even

depends on where you hit the dair, and when, sometimes you will go through all the frames of super armor before you land the hit, and sometimes you won't. its a gamble for sure.

 

[DunnoBro]

depends on where you hit the dair, and when, sometimes you will go through all the frames of super armor before you land the hit, and sometimes you won't. its a gamble for sure.

The issue is while mac can super armor through it, yoshi's air speed will let him avoid the hitboxes pretty easily if he spaced it at all properly. Sourspot usmash will beat it but that'd require just throwing it out in neutral while yoshi's grounded... You can die for that.

Yoshi's dair isn't even as big a part of his neutral as fair is, which luckily mac's smashes do beat.

 

[jet56]

The issue is while mac can super armor through it, yoshi's air speed will let him avoid the hitboxes pretty easily if he spaced it at all properly. Sourspot usmash will beat it but that'd require just throwing it out in neutral while yoshi's grounded... You can die for that.

Yoshi's dair isn't even as big a part of his neutral as fair is, which luckily mac's smashes do beat.

lol, ikr, its why i said it was a gamble, typically as a mac you should just avoid dair at all costs. the thing with yoshi is, mac has problems because he has to guess when yoshi will throw out an aerial, and space his smash attack properly to hit yoshi through it, i find that defensive yoshis are much more difficult to deal with than offensive yoshis, because they are much more patient and safely pressure mac with spaced aerials. not to mention double jump is invincible. id give it a 60-40 to yoshi, because a defensive yoshi can pressure mac much better than mac can to yoshi in neutral.

 

[A_Kae]

Hello, Little Mac players! The Marth and Lucina sub-forum has begun matchup discussion and analysis on the Little Mac matchup. If you have any input to add, or wish to fight against a Marth/Lucina player for matchup experience, please join us at the following link.

http://smashboards.com/threads/vs-little-mac-matchup-discussion-and-analysis.422140/

And be sure to check the directory thread for the rules and guidelines.

http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-discussion-and-analysis-directory.414156/

 

[busken]

I actually want to say the Yoshi MU is in Mac's favor. All Mac has to do is out space Yoshi by dashing in and out of Yoshi's N-air range and punishing with Pivot Smashes. Any Mac should have amazing spacing since that's essential to have success with the character. In close quarters, Mac also has the advantage due to his better frame data. I would only say that Egg toss in neutral is annoying and like most MU's if you get tossed off-stage one good read from the opponent means death. At worst, I would say it's 50-50 but I think Mac has a slight advantage.

I want to know how Mac does against Diddy, Greninja, and Marth

 

[SteadyDisciple]

I actually want to say the Yoshi MU is in Mac's favor. All Mac has to do is out space Yoshi by dashing in and out of Yoshi's N-air range and punishing with Pivot Smashes. Any Mac should have amazing spacing since that's essential to have success with the character. In close quarters, Mac also has the advantage due to his better frame data. I would only say that Egg toss in neutral is annoying and like most MU's if you get tossed off-stage one good read from the opponent means death. At worst, I would say it's 50-50 but I think Mac has a slight advantage.

I want to know how Mac does against Diddy, Greninja, and Marth

Can't speak for the other two, but as someone who plays both and , I might have a touch of insight on this. The Greninja boards currently have Mac listed as a 60:40 in Greninja's favor, and I can understand why. Water Shuriken can be a pain to get around, forcing Little Mac to take on an aggressive role in the matchup. Also, while neutral and follow up have their ups and downs for both characters, Greninja absolutely dominates the edgeguarding situation, most notably due to Hydro Pump's windboxes and unpredictable angles (but with credit also going heavily to Water Shuriken, Shadow Sneak, and B-air).

ALSO! Found the link to the Greninja board's discussion here http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...week-3-wario-pikachu-10-26-11-2.369356/page-7

 

[busken]

I really want to pick up Little Mac and I think he can beat Sonic, Yoshi, and Diddy without big disadvantages.

 

[jet56]

It's been awhile since anything was said here, so i want to ask about to matchups in particular for little mac:


1. what's your opinion on this matchup personally?
2. is it a disadvantage or advantage for mac, and does this involve stage choice?
3. how do you handle/play against these characters?

my personal opinion is a tad biased TBH, since i have 2 really strong players in my region who plays these characters. starting with , i would say

1. I DESPISE this matchup. it is the definition of what a defensive and campy playstyle is like. play on a stage like smashville or dreamland, and it becomes a very long and tedious game.
2. i think disadvantage, especially if is played right, as it becomes very difficult to get in on pacman, with his hydrant, trampoline, and projectiles to keep you at bay. i have personally suffered many timeouts to this character in bracket, due to the nature of his character, and the nature of .
3. the best thing to do is force the hydrant out of play, by using a smash attack on it, to then cover your approaches. if you take the percent lead, just play patiently, and wait for him to approach you. jumping over the tramp is viable, but ive found it never gets me much of anywere, as he just moves somewhere else, throws a projectile, or attacks me while im in the air. id give it a 75:25 to pacman, if he doesn't approach you and has the lead.

is a lot more doable, but it can still be trouble for .

1. I don't hate the matchup, but it depends on how the samus player plays. personally, i get very irked and irritated to anyone who won't approach me at all, and run away from me to charge and shoot projectiles. the guy in my region typically sticks close to the edge, and tether grabs me after i hit his shield with anything, so i have to bait out a grab then punish. the problem is i have to approach, or i will get hit by missiles and charge shots from a distance, even if i have the lead.
2. disadvantage, but not terrible, since mac can overpower samus up close with solid frame data, and can't be punished by a grab if you buffer options out of your dtilt and jab. like i said, its how the samus plays that determines how the match goes.
3. pressure samus with your dtilt and jab and utilt, but avoid smash attacks and ftilt in neutral, as he can punish it with a tether grab. just keep on him, but don't be reckless, and force him to fight you up close. i'd give this one a 60:40 in , but it depends on stage, with smashville giving him a platform to camp and charge his charge shot, with FD giving him nowhere to go.

IDK, personally i struggle against these characters when played with a Defensive or campy playstyle, so its hard for me to be objective on this, which is why im curious what other peoples opinions on this are.

 

[inconspikuous]

It's been awhile since anything was said here, so i want to ask about to matchups in particular for little mac:


1. what's your opinion on this matchup personally?
2. is it a disadvantage or advantage for mac, and does this involve stage choice?
3. how do you handle/play against these characters?

my personal opinion is a tad biased TBH, since i have 2 really strong players in my region who plays these characters. starting with , i would say

1. I DESPISE this matchup. it is the definition of what a defensive and campy playstyle is like. play on a stage like smashville or dreamland, and it becomes a very long and tedious game.
2. i think disadvantage, especially if is played right, as it becomes very difficult to get in on pacman, with his hydrant, trampoline, and projectiles to keep you at bay. i have personally suffered many timeouts to this character in bracket, due to the nature of his character, and the nature of .
3. the best thing to do is force the hydrant out of play, by using a smash attack on it, to then cover your approaches. if you take the percent lead, just play patiently, and wait for him to approach you. jumping over the tramp is viable, but ive found it never gets me much of anywere, as he just moves somewhere else, throws a projectile, or attacks me while im in the air. id give it a 75:25 to pacman, if he doesn't approach you and has the lead.

is a lot more doable, but it can still be trouble for .

1. I don't hate the matchup, but it depends on how the samus player plays. personally, i get very irked and irritated to anyone who won't approach me at all, and run away from me to charge and shoot projectiles. the guy in my region typically sticks close to the edge, and tether grabs me after i hit his shield with anything, so i have to bait out a grab then punish. the problem is i have to approach, or i will get hit by missiles and charge shots from a distance, even if i have the lead.
2. disadvantage, but not terrible, since mac can overpower samus up close with solid frame data, and can't be punished by a grab if you buffer options out of your dtilt and jab. like i said, its how the samus plays that determines how the match goes.
3. pressure samus with your dtilt and jab and utilt, but avoid smash attacks and ftilt in neutral, as he can punish it with a tether grab. just keep on him, but don't be reckless, and force him to fight you up close. i'd give this one a 60:40 in , but it depends on stage, with smashville giving him a platform to camp and charge his charge shot, with FD giving him nowhere to go.

IDK, personally i struggle against these characters when played with a Defensive or campy playstyle, so its hard for me to be objective on this, which is why im curious what other peoples opinions on this are.

i think you're about right with both. the main thing with campy characters is losing to frustration. i would go so far as to play for the timeout in these matchups, because of how incredibly unsafe it is to get reckless. i used to try to jump in on pac when they lay the trampoline and then stand behind it and charge fruit, but now i just wait for the trampoline to disappear. and i also find samus' tether grab annoying.

 

[busken]

Golly little mac has some pretty poor MU's

 

[Zoramine Fae]

It's been awhile since anything was said here, so i want to ask about to matchups in particular for little mac:


1. what's your opinion on this matchup personally?
2. is it a disadvantage or advantage for mac, and does this involve stage choice?
3. how do you handle/play against these characters?

my personal opinion is a tad biased TBH, since i have 2 really strong players in my region who plays these characters. starting with , i would say

1. I DESPISE this matchup. it is the definition of what a defensive and campy playstyle is like. play on a stage like smashville or dreamland, and it becomes a very long and tedious game.
2. i think disadvantage, especially if is played right, as it becomes very difficult to get in on pacman, with his hydrant, trampoline, and projectiles to keep you at bay. i have personally suffered many timeouts to this character in bracket, due to the nature of his character, and the nature of .
3. the best thing to do is force the hydrant out of play, by using a smash attack on it, to then cover your approaches. if you take the percent lead, just play patiently, and wait for him to approach you. jumping over the tramp is viable, but ive found it never gets me much of anywere, as he just moves somewhere else, throws a projectile, or attacks me while im in the air. id give it a 75:25 to pacman, if he doesn't approach you and has the lead.

is a lot more doable, but it can still be trouble for .

1. I don't hate the matchup, but it depends on how the samus player plays. personally, i get very irked and irritated to anyone who won't approach me at all, and run away from me to charge and shoot projectiles. the guy in my region typically sticks close to the edge, and tether grabs me after i hit his shield with anything, so i have to bait out a grab then punish. the problem is i have to approach, or i will get hit by missiles and charge shots from a distance, even if i have the lead.
2. disadvantage, but not terrible, since mac can overpower samus up close with solid frame data, and can't be punished by a grab if you buffer options out of your dtilt and jab. like i said, its how the samus plays that determines how the match goes.
3. pressure samus with your dtilt and jab and utilt, but avoid smash attacks and ftilt in neutral, as he can punish it with a tether grab. just keep on him, but don't be reckless, and force him to fight you up close. i'd give this one a 60:40 in , but it depends on stage, with smashville giving him a platform to camp and charge his charge shot, with FD giving him nowhere to go.

IDK, personally i struggle against these characters when played with a Defensive or campy playstyle, so its hard for me to be objective on this, which is why im curious what other peoples opinions on this are.

From experience, here's what I can say about both matchups having faced several good Samuses and three good Pac-Mans.


For Samus, it simply is a game of patience: do you have the patience to stall out Samus and enough skill to be able to punish every wrong move and shielded dash attack? And can you recover even when FAir is a thing as well as ZAir? It really depends on the skill of the Mac, but if you think FG Samus then Mac can definitely win; if the Samus knows combos, knows how to edgeguard, it becomes significantly more difficult to keep blocking the barrage of projectiles and the grab that grabs you no matter the roll. I'd agree it's about 60:40, but I'd actually say its more 55:45 due to Samus having an issue actually getting back down minus her Down B, which still can be read if said Samus does it a lot.


Pac-Man... Eh, he's a rather even or slightly towards Pac-Man in terms of difficulty. While Pac-Man has the projectile game and his Hydrant, Mac can Up Smash armor through the Hydrant and send it at an upwards angle, causing it to careen downwards and bounce and remain in play for a significant amount of time before dissapearing, and when they use the Hydrant they may be hit by a FSmash, or both the FSmash and the Hydrant. Pac's recovery, if they are forced into using Up B, can easily be screwed over by a decently timed Down Smash, as well as Pac-Man having some issues with actually getting the kill onto Little Mac. Up Tilt also works as a great anti-approach tool, even if Pac-Man doesn't truly approach all that often. It does have good range if you Perfect Pivot Up Tilt, as well as doing a pivoted FSmash for kills or surprise damage. And doing downward tilted FSmashes always does help to break shields against both MUs.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Here's a question I've got since this chat has just, like, died and I'm interested in knowing.

How does LM fare against Marth, Roy, and R.O.B?

I used to play Marth and from experience he can easily space out LM, but he also has issues killing and getting baited into throwing out Forward Smashes at unopportune times.

Roy in general seems like a 50/50 MU at first glance, with both of them being able to extremely quickly rack up damage on each other. I feel like itd be tipped in Roy's favor (lol) due to being able to just simply knock Mac offstage with a powerful smash attack.

And R.O.B speaks for itself, his projectiles and zoning game make him a really difficult fight.

What do you all say on that?

 

[AxelVDP]

First of all, I'd like to introduce myself:
Hello everyone, I'm Axel and I'm a Mac main from europe, english is not my mother tongue so I'll excuse myself in advance for all the mistakes I'm probably going to make here
I don't own a WiiU to practice on, so my tech skill is not always on point (I still struggle to include PP into my gameplay for instance), this also means that my main form of training is watching matches and reading stuff online (I'm pretty knowledgeable about the game's mechanics, characters' frame data, fighting game theory and so on)
Luckily tho there's a lively tournament scene where I live, meaning I get to play at least regularly
All that said, I wanted to discuss about Mac's matchups and confront my opinions with other Mac players (I noticed that even Sol hangs around this board, I'd really really like to hear his take about this)
I'll classify his matchups into 'disadvantageous', 'slightly disadvantageous' (which means almost even), 'evenish', 'slightly advantageous', 'advantageous'
also, matchups where I don't really have an opinion on (because of a lack of data and experience) I'll leave empty

Little Mac matchup impressions

Bowser
I used to believe this matchup to be in the evenish range (or even slightly in Mac's favour), the recent patch tho greatly buffed Bowser's punish game with his new uthrow, and his big grab range could be a real problem now
Can't really say now, I'll have to wait and see how this turns out

Bowser Jr
Never really fought a good one so I can't really say anything about this matchup. On paper it does not look so bad tho

Captain Falcon
Disadvantageous. Falcon is one of the characters I fear the most. He has the speed to keep up with Little Mac and his down throw is like a nightmare for Mac, If you DI away from him in order to minimize his follow ups you put yourself closer to the edge of the stage/offstage which means you risk of dieing extremely early with a dair spike read or a normal edgeguard attempt, if you DI inwards you get hit by a lot of upairs, and every bit of dammage counts because Mac is light and Falcon has a lot of high kb moves
Our usual combo breakers (upB) (nair is a terrible combo breaker because it's negative on hit, best used as a mixup when the opponent does not expect it) don't really work because he juggles below us, so we almost always have to eat hits
If all of this wasn't enough, Falcon's (rapid) jab sends at a ****ty ass horizzontal trajectory and has high bkb, which means that his f3 move can put us offstage easily even at low %s
His down and up tilts also work wonders to intercept Mac's recovery and they are a free gimp if they hit.
The MU is not unwinnable tho (there are no really unwinnable MUs), our punish game is pretty amazing against a character with physics like Falcon, his recovery is very easy to exploit and we have the tools to try and keep him out.

Charizard
Evenish. I personally feel like the matchup could easily be in Mac's favour if it weren't for the HUGE grab range of Charizard which gives zard good ways to throw us offstage and try to edgeguard us with his lingering nair (which can be used as a pseudo frame trap) and long ranged fair

Diddy Kong
I sadly have no experience in this MU (not against good players at least), but it feels like a slightly disadvantageous one

Donkey Kong
I hear a lot of people claiming this to be a really hard matchup for Mac. Personally, I don't see it, you just have to play a lot more patiently than usual and it becomes manageable. I'd say it's about evenish

Duck Hunt
This feels like a good matchup for Little Mac, probably and advantageous one. We can muscle through his projectiles thanks to our ground speed and we kill him quite early, while he has to work a lot to get us to kill%. His recovery is easily down smashable and he can't gimp us all that easily.

Falco
Evenish to slightly advantageous? I don't really feel threatened by Falco, but I don't have a lot of experience in this matchup either, so who knows

Fox
Slightly disadvantageous

Mr. Game & Watch
Dunno

Ganondorf
I personally feel like Ganondorf is a slightly disadvantageous matchup for Mac, he can abuse of our TERRIBLE tech rolls with his sideB and kills us extremely early with stuff like ftilt. We can manage to outspace him with our good tilts&frame data but the moment we make a mistake it's gonna cost really hard.

Greninja
It's really hard to find Greninja players so I'm not really sure what to think about this MU. It looks kinda evenish, but hydro pump is a real pain in the ass.

Ike
Slightly disadvantageous. If we get offstage against Ike we have basically lost the stock. Between Eruption and fsmash it's really really hard to get back on stage

Jigglypuff
Disadvantageous. Yes, I'm not joking (sadly). The problem in this MU is that Jigglypuff doesn't give a **** about our best neutral tools like dtilt, also, she has a great dash grab. Our best tool against her is our uptilt, but it can be baited and punished (!!!) thanks to her weaving ability in the air.
If she gets us offstage it's time to cry. Thank god she dies extremely early tho.

King Dedede
Advantageous. Dedede get's bodied by our frame data and can't land for ****. His only safe-ish tools in neutral against us are jab and ftilt, both of which can be punished. The only dangerous thing Dedede can do is try to get us offstage whit an inhale at the ledge, but it can be beaten by a properly spaced fsmash
I'm pretty positive in the knowledge of this matchup because I've played (and beaten) some REALLY good players (better than me supposedly)

Kirby
Evenish

Link
Slightly disadvantageous

Little Mac
90:10 for Little Mac

Lucario
Evenish

Luigi
Slightly advantageous

Mario
Slightly disadvantageous

Dr. Mario
Evenish

Marth
Slightly disadvantageous

Lucina
Slightly disadvantageous

Metaknight
Slightly disadvantageous

Ness
Disadvantageous.

Olimar
Don't really know

Palutena
Evenish

Pikachu
On the disadvantageous side (no experience)

Pit & Dark Pit
Slightly disadvantageous

Peach
Disadvantageous.

Zelda
Advantageous

R.O.B.
Evenish

Robin
Evenish

Rosalina
On the disadvantageous side (no experience)

Samus
Advantageous. Samus has SERIOUS problems when trying to reset to neutral against us, her missiles are just a mere annoyance and easily shielded (they have a FAF of like 60+ frames which means that they are not spammable) and she also has trouble in keeping us out, and up close we can overpower her with our frame data.

Sheik
Disadvantageous. (but actually really doable, it's not the impossible matchup it was hyped up to be early in the game lifespan)

Shulk
Slightly advantageous

Toon Link
Slightly disadvantageous

Villager
Evenish

Wario
Dunno, looks evenish

Wii Fit Trainer
Dunno, looks evenish

Yoshi
Slightly disadvantageous

Zero Suit Samus
Slightly disadvantageous

Megaman
Dunno, looks evenish

Pacman
Dunno, looks in Pacman's favour tho

Sonic
Disadvantageous.

Ryu
Evenish

Roy
Evenish

Mewtwo
Dunno, looks slightly in our favour

Lucas
Dunno, looks evenish

Brawler

Swordfighter

Gunner


sorry, got bored halway through, might edit with more insight in the future

edit: I wanted to add: the only teether grabs which give Mac trouble are Toon/Link's, they come out at frame12, and our dtilt just so happens to be -12 on out of shield options, the only way not to get shield grabbed would be to space the down tilt "badly" in order to be slightly more close and trade with their grab with our f1 jab (when too far the jab won't usually trade)

 

[PHYTO-1]

Jigglypuff
Disadvantageous. Yes, I'm not joking (sadly). The problem in this MU is that Jigglypuff doesn't give a **** about our best neutral tools like dtilt, also, she has a great dash grab. Our best tool against her is our uptilt, but it can be baited and punished (!!!) thanks to her weaving ability in the air.
If she gets us offstage it's time to cry. Thank god she dies extremely early tho.

i personally think its in our favor. i've fought many jigglypuffs and foxtrot/pivot up-Fsmash can totally destroy her main approach of aerials. her ground game is absolute trash. also, we have a guaranteed grab release into UpB kill setup so thats a plus.

 

[Alphicans]

http://smashcompendium.com/matchup-chart/jknydgmvexfaohqu/

whipped up a little matchup chart. No explanations, but I'd be willing to discuss a few perhaps.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

http://smashcompendium.com/matchup-chart/jknydgmvexfaohqu/

whipped up a little matchup chart. No explanations, but I'd be willing to discuss a few perhaps.

Just my two cents on this chart. Thought I'd do so.


Top row looks almost entirely accurate, but I'd argue slightly that Rosa v Mac is more in her favor, but then again where do you find dedicated and good rosa mains? Nowhere.

Second row... Diddy is at the minimum 55/45 in Diddy's favor. Banannas restrict movement on the ground and Diddy lives for longer than you'd think. The fact that the stupid Monkey Leap is a command grab doesn't help either. Lmao on the Zelda, that is definitely true. ZSS is towards ZSS's favor like Diddy, but maybe that's just MU experience you have that I don't, but in experience Mac struggles rather heavily. Otherwise, pretty accurate.

Third row. Pit is 55/45 his favor and Palu is 45/55 Mac's favor. Pit has a dumb projectile and Down Special for gimping, a few good killing tools, and several multi-hit attacks which can break through your armor if they hit on an unlucky frame, as well as a great grab. Palu is slightly less so. Liked the Marth advantage in his favor. Robin is DEFINITELY not that bad. DThrow into UTilt into turnaround BAir is really dumb, and while yes Mac has a ridiculous rushdown a competent Robin won't let you just simply run in and FSmash. The fact they all had lag reduced really helps as well. Otherwise, still accurate, which amazes me how you are so accurate compared to what I agree with right now.

Fourth row. Pikachu isn't as bad as it shows you putting it as, but its close - 65/35 IMO. Pika has good approaching tools and whatnot, but it is still winnable with one crucial mistake or a good read. I'm interested in why R.O.B. loses the MU since the Gyro can control the ground, Robo Beam is a great landing option, Robo Beep-Bop is rather gud as well, and NAir covers literally everything. Happy that you listed Ness the way you did. And for Wii Fit, imo its 45/55 Mac's favor. She/He just has too many issues dealing with not only killing but stopping approaches, as both projectiles can be read and shielded easily.

Fifth row. Dark Pit's new buff has made him a threat as all hell, with grounded Side B being the dumbest move in the universe to fight against, as its great angle, moderate damage, and electrical properties on shield make it frustrating to punish. Probably 60-40 Pittoo's favor at this point. Lucas is the same as Ness imo, especially after the grab lag buff. He just combos a lot and Mac has armor to go through it. Ryu's in his favor, though - With a gaurenteed kill option at any % because of Up Tilt, DTilt, or Jab into True Shoryu, a good projectile that deals moderate damage with two variants, and semi-decent recovery, he is a gigantic threat. He also can break shields with FTilt. 55-45 OR 60-40 in his favor.

And for Cloud... No input yet, he needs more time.


Overall, looks pretty accurate. I'd love to hear your explanations for the placements that I mentioned above.


EDIT: I'll make one myself and post it in a while. I like that tool.

 

[Alphicans]

You overrate bananas I think. When diddy pulls them, you can react and rush him down to where he is. If he isn't absolutely perfect with when he pulls them you can always punish him for pulling them, and then take it for your own. If mac gets a banana then he has banana -> smash or banana -> KO punch at his disposal. Now if diddy does have control over the banana, mac can easily 1frame jab it away or catch it. You can also call out banana toss with an fsmash and SA through it. Mac deals with bananas very well and uses them about as well as diddy can tbh. I would rate it 55/45 for mac before giving the advantage to diddy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4S5v_kmjUU8 evidence that I do know this matchup fairly well (I played him earlier in bracket, double 2 stocking him)

Notice though I don't have it at rosa favor, I have it in our favor

65/35, 70/30 I won't argue the differences between those ratios. For different people they can mean the same thing. 70/30 to me isn't unwinnable... I just wanted to show that I think this is mac's hardest matchup

ROBs gyro makes it so it's not vastly in our favor. It his greatest tool vs us, but once we can get past it it's free. Nair is NOT a good move vs us. We can PS the hit and jab him (this is very easy to do)... Alternatively we can SA smash our way through it. The move has a massive amount of startup so we can literally react to it with a smash attack most of the time. His throw to uair setup is deadly, but our smashes are safe on shield, and he doesn't have an overly good dash grab.

EDIT: Note that the strength of nair usually comes from the fact that even if other characters can see it coming a mile away, they have very few options to challenge it since it's so big. Mac does not have this problem. He is a direct counter to this specific move.

I feel very strongly that we win the ryu matchup. LOL the projectile is NOT good. 1frame jab it if he ever uses it and walk forward. If he uses hadouken this means he's giving us more stage control. I've taught a lot of ryus not to use that move. His focus is not nearly as effective vs us, since ftilt hits twice, and jabs are so fast, we can usually react to what he's doing. Also our smashes have short enough cool down that if we do hit him while using it, he cannot actually get the crumple on us, so it's actually usually a beneficial trade. I purposely trade with focus attack quite often to build dmg and KO punch. Ryu has poor aerial mobility so he cannot run away from mac as well as most characters which is a huge asset in the matchup. He's also a very nice weight for us to combo and setup dair locks. Also we're incredibly strong, making his heavy weight seem rather meh.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

You overrate bananas I think. When diddy pulls them, you can react and rush him down to where he is. If he isn't absolutely perfect with when he pulls them you can always punish him for pulling them, and then take it for your own. If mac gets a banana then he has banana -> smash or banana -> KO punch at his disposal. Now if diddy does have control over the banana, mac can easily 1frame jab it away or catch it. You can also call out banana toss with an fsmash and SA through it. Mac deals with bananas very well and uses them about as well as diddy can tbh. I would rate it 55/45 for mac before giving the advantage to diddy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4S5v_kmjUU8 evidence that I do know this matchup fairly well (I played him earlier in bracket, double 2 stocking him)

Notice though I don't have it at rosa favor, I have it in our favor

65/35, 70/30 I won't argue the differences between those ratios. For different people they can mean the same thing. 70/30 to me isn't unwinnable... I just wanted to show that I think this is mac's hardest matchup

ROBs gyro makes it so it's not vastly in our favor. It his greatest tool vs us, but once we can get past it it's free. Nair is NOT a good move vs us. We can PS the hit and jab him (this is very easy to do)... Alternatively we can SA smash our way through it. The move has a massive amount of startup so we can literally react to it with a smash attack most of the time. His throw to uair setup is deadly, but our smashes are safe on shield, and he doesn't have an overly good dash grab.

EDIT: Note that the strength of nair usually comes from the fact that even if other characters can see it coming a mile away, they have very few options to challenge it since it's so big. Mac does not have this problem. He is a direct counter to this specific move.

I feel very strongly that we win the ryu matchup. LOL the projectile is NOT good. 1frame jab it if he ever uses it and walk forward. If he uses hadouken this means he's giving us more stage control. I've taught a lot of ryus not to use that move. His focus is not nearly as effective vs us, since ftilt hits twice, and jabs are so fast, we can usually react to what he's doing. Also our smashes have short enough cool down that if we do hit him while using it, he cannot actually get the crumple on us, so it's actually usually a beneficial trade. I purposely trade with focus attack quite often to build dmg and KO punch. Ryu has poor aerial mobility so he cannot run away from mac as well as most characters which is a huge asset in the matchup. He's also a very nice weight for us to combo and setup dair locks. Also we're incredibly strong, making his heavy weight seem rather meh.

Maybe me and you just have different experiences for certain matchups.

For Diddy, I honestly don't have enough experience in the MU to know all of these things. If Jab 1 DOES cancel out the Bananna, alright, I guess that can go towards Mac's favor possibly; I'll need to find a good Diddy to practice against something soon.

For Rosa, I meant to say it was towards her favor since you have it in 45/55 Mac's favor for some reason. Maybe you fight better Rosa's than me?

R.O.B, like Diddy, I haven't fought many R.O.Bs in experience, but imo its probably more even. Had a friend who plays R.O.B. fight me last night and I told him to try as hard as possible to out-camp me with Gyro and Lasers, and now that I get more experience with them I actually can shield them rather easily. And I've only had issues with NAir since I'm rather oblivious to the startup of some attacks and when some are getting ready.

For Ryu, I've actually found escaping Mac as Ryu (since I play him as well) actually isn't that difficult since they always do the same response: FSmash, Pivot UTilt, or Up Smash, all three of which are usually dealt with by either Focus Attack Level 3, Focus Attack Cancel to screw them up, or just a basic airdodge. Also, while yes KO Punch doesn't really do all that much, it actually does cut the damage and knockback of KO Punch significantly since that is one of the main features of its special armor, which actually can make Ryu survive it to a rather high percent. That's off experience though playing as Mac when Ryu seemed to be common one day and a guy managed to armor right through it. He also can shield most of our good attacks, get off a down tilt string, then TShoryu us into oblivion.

And maybe the projectile isn't as good as I say, but Shakunetsu Hadouken is frustrating for me to get past since I have to shield through it all and usually they are ready to shield the second that Mac approaches him. Again, maybe its just conditioning based on who we fight.


I'm still interested on your input on Robin, Dark Pit, Palutena, and Zero Suit and why they are there. Its fun conversing with MUs to other Mac players; gives you some insight on how some players deal with other characters.


EDIT (Like, 3 Minutes Later edit):
http://smashcompendium.com/matchup-chart/xtfbihwjvzkceulq/
And there's my list for Mac's MUs. Maybe could use a bit more MU experience in some, but that's based off what I know of.

 

[jet56]

why do you have robin as a favorable matchup for little mac? i struggle as hell against a competent robin player, as its almost impossible to get past the walls for me personally.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

why do you have robin as a favorable matchup for little mac? i struggle as hell against a competent robin player, as its almost impossible to get past the walls for me personally.

Robin has rather pitiful speed all-around, making it easy to just run in circles. The limit on Robin's projectiles doesn't help either, even if they do recharge within 10-20 seconds of them wearing off. These two coincide with eachother to make Robin have massive issues once Arcfire runs out of uses or becomes low and/or Thunder is running low. Usually I just stall for a bit and wait for them to attempt to space approach with FAir and punish instantly with either a dash grab or pivot FSmash.

Jabs are Robin's true best way of stuffing any approach (that or Down Tilt, which doesnt do much), as well as his FAir, of which the first one is rather predictable and you can just side B to victory against. FAir has the issue of being prone to Super Armor, which Mac has an abundance of.

TBH its just up to if you like getting around projectiles or not. Personally I find fun in attempting to get around the array of them and punishing bad predictions.

 

[jet56]

Robin has rather pitiful speed all-around, making it easy to just run in circles. The limit on Robin's projectiles doesn't help either, even if they do recharge within 10-20 seconds of them wearing off. These two coincide with eachother to make Robin have massive issues once Arcfire runs out of uses or becomes low and/or Thunder is running low. Usually I just stall for a bit and wait for them to attempt to space approach with FAir and punish instantly with either a dash grab or pivot FSmash.

Jabs are Robin's true best way of stuffing any approach (that or Down Tilt, which doesnt do much), as well as his FAir, of which the first one is rather predictable and you can just side B to victory against. FAir has the issue of being prone to Super Armor, which Mac has an abundance of.

TBH its just up to if you like getting around projectiles or not. Personally I find fun in attempting to get around the array of them and punishing bad predictions.

i forget that the projectiles run out. we have a surprise robin that just showed up and knows what he is doing, and just kinda beat everyone down. but if all it takes is just waiting for him to run out of arcfire (which is my biggest problem), then cool.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

i forget that the projectiles run out. we have a surprise robin that just showed up and knows what he is doing, and just kinda beat everyone down. but if all it takes is just waiting for him to run out of arcfire (which is my biggest problem), then cool.

Maybe not JUST Arcfire for the whole beating-robin trick (in personal experience). Getting down Arcfire itself is great since it actually is a major issue for Mac's: If I'm correct you cannot Jolt Haymaker over it, you cannot counter through it as it is multi-hitbox, you cannot armor through it for the same reason, and it sets up Arcthunder, Thoron, UAir, FAir, BAir, FSmash, USmash... I could go on, but I don't need to. The real question is can you force Robin into using the tome that you want him to use and punishing accordingly?


Arcfire can be avoided by rolling behind the Robin, and because of its endlag you can probably get off a Jab, DTilt, Pivot UTilt or Pivot FTilt. If it does land, simply avoiding rushing in until it dissapears and preparing to powershield an Elthunder or shield through an Arcthunder is the best way to go around things, since usually when one comes out the other will come literally seconds later.

Thunder can't be avoided but it is weak and has no KO potential and merely just stalls you to prevent approaches. If you can, powershield it to avoid getting damage racked onto you for one of Robin's many KO moves. Thunder also happens to be a really weird get-back-to-stage tool for hitting Macs preparing to Down Smash. So avoid getting caught by that.

Elthunder is the main damage dealer, obviously, and actually is a bit harder to avoid than you think. Usually once this gets fired off, Arcfire will pop out right afterwards, or vice versa, so simply shielding and preparing for the next onslaught works. It's pretty obvious when Robin will throw it out, and you can easily powershield it. It also is punishable if you manage to catch them close-range when they use it by DTilt to interrupt it (this goes for most of the tomes in general) or by rolling behind and starting a string or just FSmashing into oblivion.

Arcthunder is just dumb. You cannot powershield it - its multihit and actually has moderately respectable knockback for an attack of its kind. It combos into Arcfire i believe, every single aerial wiht good timing, USmash, FSmash, and even Nosferatu for some dumb reason, so in general don't shield it, just jump. Over. It. You will never hear this out of me again, JUMP OVER IT AS MAC.

Thoron is absurdly obvious to avoid. Once a Robin gets his Thunder tome fully charged, simply start playing ultra defensively and forcing Robin to approach. Once you see him start Thoron, just shield all the way. I believe it combos out of Arcfire if you aren't careful, and it also happens to be a great edgeguarder since you can't airdodge through it all and it has very good knockback. Just, avoid letting Robin charge this up.

Elwind. I don't really need to explain this one, but I've actually seen a few Robins recently use it as an odd OOS option which actually worked repeatedly against me. It is rather unexpected when used in this way and hits twice, so it forces you to either hold shield for an extended amount of time and gives them time to position themselves back towards the stage and has some weird knockback to it. It shouldn't really be an issue, but be watchful of it.

Nosferatu is absurdly unsafe for Robins to throw out, but it combos out of Arcthunder, so be careful to not be hit by it or stuck shielding. It kinda sucks so you don't see many go for it unless its gaurenteed.

If anything, the biggest issue you have is Levin Sword or the Books that Robin can throw at you to edgeguard you really dumbly or kill early. Otherwise, just do what my massive wall of text says, and all shall be good.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Does anyone want to discuss the Little Mac matchup with Mii Gunner? Several Gunners think that Mii Gunner wins the matchup 70:30 while the Little Mac mains that voted on the Matchup chart think that Little Mac goes even or wins the matchup. This alone demonstrates that this matchup is clearly in need of some discussion. If anyone is interested you guys can post in the Mii Gunner Matchup thread on the Mii Gunner board.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Does anyone want to discuss the Little Mac matchup with Mii Gunner? Several Gunners think that Mii Gunner wins the matchup 70:30 while the Little Mac mains that voted on the Matchup chart think that Little Mac goes even or wins the matchup. This alone demonstrates that this matchup is clearly in need of some discussion. If anyone is interested you guys can post in the Mii Gunner Matchup thread on the Mii Gunner board.

As someone who has fooled around with Mii Gunner for a bit in a few actual matches as well as in training mode, I can definitely see Gunner/Mac being 50/50 or 55/45, but most likely not in Mac's favor. Mii Gunner just has a multitude of multi-hitting attacks, disjoints for the same reason in Up Air, Forward Smash, Neutral B Grenade Launch, Side B Flame Pillar, and Down B Bomb Drop which can hit Mac through some of his armor if it hits on a bad frame. Gunner just spaces immensely well and also has several edgeguarding tools and the FAir that reminds me of Lucas's PK Fire but less powerful. Down Smash also hurts like Cloud's, and you can't counter any of the Smash attacks since all of them are multi-hit and have weak hits at the start.

 

[Djmarcus44]

As someone who has fooled around with Mii Gunner for a bit in a few actual matches as well as in training mode, I can definitely see Gunner/Mac being 50/50 or 55/45, but most likely not in Mac's favor. Mii Gunner just has a multitude of multi-hitting attacks, disjoints for the same reason in Up Air, Forward Smash, Neutral B Grenade Launch, Side B Flame Pillar, and Down B Bomb Drop which can hit Mac through some of his armor if it hits on a bad frame. Gunner just spaces immensely well and also has several edgeguarding tools and the FAir that reminds me of Lucas's PK Fire but less powerful. Down Smash also hurts like Cloud's, and you can't counter any of the Smash attacks since all of them are multi-hit and have weak hits at the start.

I personally think that the matchup is worse for Little Mac (65:35). This is because of Gunner's great ledge guarding options in flame pillar, charge blast, and down smash. These tools allow Gunner to abuse Little Mac's poor recovery, and kill him very quickly (Little Mac's recovery also allows Mii Gunner to kill Little Mac with a back throw at the ledge around 140). Also, Mii Gunner's fair is more problematic for Little Mac than the PK fire of Lucas because it allows gunner to gundash farther than a PK fire wavedash, and it starts and ends faster than PK fire. Gunner's fair is also transcendent, so it can't be stopped by a hitbox from Little Mac. Also, Gunner can combo Little Mac pretty well (In the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread there are some deadly combos and follow ups that can kill Little Mac at 0). Mii Gunner's is able to beat Little Mac in the neutral with a variety of projectiles. Mii Gunner can punish as hard as if not harder than Little Mac due to Gunner's superior throw game and Little Mac's recovery. While Little Mac has more power than Gunner, Gunner has more reliable kill setups than Little Mac. Also Gunner has an easier time escaping juggling than Little Mac because of Gunner's superior aerial mobility and landing mixups (gundashing, reflector stalling, flame pillar, and lunar launch).

Can you please post in the Mii Gunner Matchup thread that Little Mac is discussing Mii Gunner? I would do it, but I don't want to double post.

 

[LRodC]

As someone who has fooled around with Mii Gunner for a bit in a few actual matches as well as in training mode, I can definitely see Gunner/Mac being 50/50 or 55/45, but most likely not in Mac's favor. Mii Gunner just has a multitude of multi-hitting attacks, disjoints for the same reason in Up Air, Forward Smash, Neutral B Grenade Launch, Side B Flame Pillar, and Down B Bomb Drop which can hit Mac through some of his armor if it hits on a bad frame. Gunner just spaces immensely well and also has several edgeguarding tools and the FAir that reminds me of Lucas's PK Fire but less powerful. Down Smash also hurts like Cloud's, and you can't counter any of the Smash attacks since all of them are multi-hit and have weak hits at the start.

What is your reasoning for the Mewtwo MU being 70:30 Mac's favor? In my experience it seems very even, if not incredibly volatile on both sides. If it's in anyone's favor, I do not think it's that much of a disparity.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

What is your reasoning for the Mewtwo MU being 70:30 Mac's favor? In my experience it seems very even, if not incredibly volatile on both sides. If it's in anyone's favor, I do not think it's that much of a disparity.

Maybe it's not 70/30 but more 65/35 or 60/40, I've fought a few good Mewtwos recently. He just has an issue with not getting hit and being incredibly lightweight and a massive target doesn't help when all Smash Attacks, Side B, and Up B become easier to hit due to the massive hitbox. Mewtwo does have a rather powerful Up Throw, Up Smash, Back Throw, and a projectile that is actually pretty good to screw with Mac, and Side B as well as Up B and a Lucas/Ness-esque jump to mixup recoveries, but I just am in the thought that Mac just has a distinct advantage in that massive hitbox Mewtwo has.

 

[LRodC]

Maybe it's not 70/30 but more 65/35 or 60/40, I've fought a few good Mewtwos recently. He just has an issue with not getting hit and being incredibly lightweight and a massive target doesn't help when all Smash Attacks, Side B, and Up B become easier to hit due to the massive hitbox. Mewtwo does have a rather powerful Up Throw, Up Smash, Back Throw, and a projectile that is actually pretty good to screw with Mac, and Side B as well as Up B and a Lucas/Ness-esque jump to mixup recoveries, but I just am in the thought that Mac just has a distinct advantage in that massive hitbox Mewtwo has.

Mewtwo's hurtbox actually isn't that large. It's about the 14th-16th tallest, which puts him around Zelda/Sheik territory. It's not small, but it's not necessarily Dedede/DK/Bowser size, and it's not even close to being Ganon level tall. Here's more info on it.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-misconceptions-about-mewtwos-hurtbox-end-here.416127

Anyway, I agree that Mac has some good options against Mewtwo that really screw with him. Mac is excellent at covering landings, he beats out his neutral on the ground, and he can close the distance extremely quickly, making Mewtwo really uncomfortable since he prefers mid range. He's also very hard to punish on the ground.

Mewtwo's got some things that Mac hates as well though. You already listed those, so I won't go into too much detail there. I also want to point out that Mac is a fast faller, so a down tilt combo will always lead to two forward airs. Up throw is also another juggle option that screws with Mac well. Mewtwo has good anti air options with up smash, up tilt, and up air that can either kill or juggle him.

I would have to face more Macs to determine what I think of it.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Mewtwo's hurtbox actually isn't that large. It's about the 14th-16th tallest, which puts him around Zelda/Sheik territory. It's not small, but it's not necessarily Dedede/DK/Bowser size, and it's not even close to being Ganon level tall. Here's more info on it.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-misconceptions-about-mewtwos-hurtbox-end-here.416127

Anyway, I agree that Mac has some good options against Mewtwo that really screw with him. Mac is excellent at covering landings, he beats out his neutral on the ground, and he can close the distance extremely quickly, making Mewtwo really uncomfortable since he prefers mid range. He's also very hard to punish on the ground.

Mewtwo's got some things that Mac hates as well though. You already listed those, so I won't go into too much detail there. I also want to point out that Mac is a fast faller, so a down tilt combo will always lead to two forward airs. Up throw is also another juggle option that screws with Mac well. Mewtwo has good anti air options with up smash, up tilt, and up air that can either kill or juggle him.

I would have to face more Macs to determine what I think of it.

Down Tilt does lead into two Forward Airs always? God damnit, that explains why that kept happening. That actually hurts Mac A LOT. Also, lol the anti-airs are all Up attacks.

And maybe Mewtwo's hitbox isn't THAT large, but it's still larger than it has to be and him not having disjoints on BAir and UAir kinda sucks since Mac can FSmash right into BAir (but UAir is fine, lol). M2 has great killing options as well and an actually deadly Back Throw in experience, but I just think its pretty much Mac's favor. I might screw around with Mewtwo in the upcoming days just to see what he has to bring to the matchup.

Either way, nice to have a respectable conversation with someone.

 

[LRodC]

Down Tilt does lead into two Forward Airs always? God damnit, that explains why that kept happening. That actually hurts Mac A LOT. Also, lol the anti-airs are all Up attacks.

And maybe Mewtwo's hitbox isn't THAT large, but it's still larger than it has to be and him not having disjoints on BAir and UAir kinda sucks since Mac can FSmash right into BAir (but UAir is fine, lol). M2 has great killing options as well and an actually deadly Back Throw in experience, but I just think its pretty much Mac's favor. I might screw around with Mewtwo in the upcoming days just to see what he has to bring to the matchup.

Either way, nice to have a respectable conversation with someone.

Usually at 0% to probably another low percent depending on the character, a down tilt will usually lead to two forward airs on fast fallers. This was made easier in the latest patch since forward air comes out a frame earlier now. However, Mac may be able to break out of it with a neutral air since he's unique in having a frame 2 aerial. Haven't really messed with that, and it may not be that safe, but it's something. Something else to note about f-air is that it's completely safe on shield if fast falled.

The tail attacks do all have disjoints just like swords. The length varies based on the attack, but it's usually about 40% of the tail length that has intangibility. Test it out in training mode with Bob-ombs. For the most part, b-air is a poor move to use while landing, especially versus Mac since it's not that safe and has a little bit of start up to it. It's more of a huge hitbox you throw out in the air to catch opponents off stage or extend a combo. It's better after the landing lag reduction, but it's probably not a great option for grounded purposes. U-air's used more for juggling, catching bad air dodges, comboing, and it can even kill off the top now. There's absolutely no reason why Mac should be near the top willingly, but it's something to watch out for.

Even if Mac wins, I don't think it's that comfortable for him. It could possibly be 55:45 or 60:40, but no more than that. We'd have to see the match at a high level to really know for sure.

 

[CHOVI]

i personally think its in our favor. i've fought many jigglypuffs and foxtrot/pivot up-Fsmash can totally destroy her main approach of aerials. her ground game is absolute trash. also, we have a guaranteed grab release into UpB kill setup so thats a plus.

I disagree. Jigglypuff doesn't really have to approach on the ground and can comfortably be in the air in neutral. And one mistake from Mac can be a stock. I'd say it's heavily in Puff's favor. Not impossible, of course, but difficult.

 

[LRodC]

I disagree. Jigglypuff doesn't really have to approach on the ground and can comfortably be in the air in neutral. And one mistake from Mac can be a stock. I'd say it's heavily in Puff's favor. Not impossible, of course, but difficult.

I think you're underestimating how hard it is for a good Mac to be punished though considering his excellent frame data and super armor. Mac also has a ton of anti-air options that can really put the hurt on Jigglypuff, who absolutely has to approach and will a large majority of the time do it aerially (if she does something grounded, it is suicide most of the time). The most Jiggs can do is just kind of float away and swerve in and out to annoy Mac. On certain stages she can probably be hell, but on an Omega? I don't see that in Jiggs favor at all.

 

[CHOVI]

I think you're underestimating how hard it is for a good Mac to be punished though considering his excellent frame data and super armor. Mac also has a ton of anti-air options that can really put the hurt on Jigglypuff, who absolutely has to approach and will a large majority of the time do it aerially (if she does something grounded, it is suicide most of the time). The most Jiggs can do is just kind of float away and swerve in and out to annoy Mac. On certain stages she can probably be hell, but on an Omega? I don't see that in Jiggs favor at all.

Most Macs I play tend to agree the matchup is really in Jigglypuff's favor, but I do agree I haven't played a high-level, little Mac. Maybe I need to find a little Mac that is really hard to punish.
Grounded isn't necessary suicide, being that dash attack beats all of Mac's tilts. I'd have to play more Macs to say any more, but I still think Jigglypuff gives Mac a hard time.
Also, a whiffed KO punch and a whiffed upb result in Mac's death so there's that.

 

[Champ Gold]

Most Macs I play tend to agree the matchup is really in Jigglypuff's favor, but I do agree I haven't played a high-level, little Mac. Maybe I need to find a little Mac that is really hard to punish.
Grounded isn't necessary suicide, being that dash attack beats all of Mac's tilts. I'd have to play more Macs to say any more, but I still think Jigglypuff gives Mac a hard time.
Also, a whiffed KO punch and a whiffed upb result in Mac's death so there's that.

I rarely lose against a Puff as Mac due to the pressure he can put on and if you play Puff's game and be patient, you can win. Super Armor smashes and counter can help against Puff.That and she can die at 50% depending if you can set it up