Smash 4 Social Thread 3.0

[JamesDNaux]

Question: If Snake is so likely for DLC, why wasn't he in the game in the first place?

Good question.

 

[Frostwraith]

Nintendo and Konami weren't all "buddy buddy" back during Brawl either.

It's literally the exact same situation, the exact same arguments, war nothing has changed.

Last MGS game on a Nintendo console was a remake: Now? Check. Then? Check.

Newest MGS game on the way is not coming to Nintendo consoles: Now? Check. Then? Check.

Nintendo didn't want Snake in Brawl either, yet by some power, Sakurai made it happen. Now even Iwata says that Snake being in the game was a good thing. There's no reason for Konami to say no to it either, since they have nothing to lose at all.

I'm not saying Snake is a shoe-in, no one is (except Mewtwo ), but that people should really stop outright dismissing him.

Okay, I concede.

All that's left to do is to hope it will happen. He could get some new stages on both versions. Like, a MGS/Twin Snakes based stage on the Wii U and a MGS3 stage on the 3DS. It would go well with the "home console game stages on Wii U and handheld game stages on 3DS" ideal and would be from two MGS games released on Nintendo systems.

Hey, Sakurai did say he wanted to bring everyone back so DLC is a good way to fulfill that desire as best as possible.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I would still like to know the official reason Snake never came back. Kojima's Son had little reason to request a return, since he got what he wanted. Kojima clearly doesn't mind(as he said so himself). Nintendo and Konami being on bad terms does make sense, honestly. Sakurai may not have been interested since he wasn't asked again.

Regardless, I do miss him, but what happened happened. It'll be great if he's dlc, but I don't expect him. I don't expect Roy(FE) due to the same name and already having a Marth clone(not that I would not mind if his name was said differently...), Ice Climbers(because of 3DS issues), and Young Link(since without transformations, he can bring little to the table now), outside of obviously Snake. Everybody else? Wouldn't surprise me at all. PT himself is a notable thing, because they could certainly make him unique by using various items he can get. Like the Fishing Rod or Escape Rope. It's gimmicky, and akin to Villager, but people do love playing as Trainers too.

 

[Kenith]

Good question.

Nintendo owns Mewtwo.

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

Nintendo owns Mewtwo.

Or maybe Mewtwo owns Nintendo.

 

[Logsmash]

I would still like to know the official reason Snake never came back. Kojima's Son had little reason to request a return, since he got what he wanted. Kojima clearly doesn't mind(as he said so himself). Nintendo and Konami being on bad terms does make sense, honestly. Sakurai may not have been interested since he wasn't asked again.

Regardless, I do miss him, but what happened happened. It'll be great if he's dlc, but I don't expect him. I don't expect Roy(FE) due to the same name and already having a Marth clone(not that I would not mind if his name was said differently...), Ice Climbers(because of 3DS issues), and Young Link(since without transformations, he can bring little to the table now), outside of obviously Snake. Everybody else? Wouldn't surprise me at all. PT himself is a notable thing, because they could certainly make him unique by using various items he can get. Like the Fishing Rod or Escape Rope. It's gimmicky, and akin to Villager, but people do love playing as Trainers too.

Escape Rope as Up-B? I'd play it. Then again, I've also heard of a moveset where PT throws out a different Pokemon for each attack (example: Scyther Pidgey using Fly for Up-B, Rattata using Quick Attack for Forward-B, etc), which sounds like it could be pretty cool, although I wonder how they'd deal with the delay between button input-throwing pokeball-attack happening, unless the animation was super fast.

 

[Frostwraith]

I still think that, after Mewtwo, Wolf and Lucas will be the next veterans to be DLC.

The facts:
- They were considered for Melee: Lucas was meant as a Ness replacement but Mother 3 was cancelled, and Wolf was meant as the Fox clone but then it was decided that Falco would look more unique compared to Fox.
- They were in Brawl alongside the characters that out-prioritized them in Melee and returned once more for this game.
- The fact they were in Brawl means they don't take as much work as doing a character from scratch like the newcomers (except Lucina and Dark Pit) and Mewtwo (whose Melee data was too outdated to be used on a newer engine).
- Some of their moves have been made custom moves for Fox and Ness. For me, this suggests that work was put into them, but were scrapped, so they put some leftover data to use.
- There was a rumor that the team had to choose between Ness and Lucas as there wouldn't be enough time to implement both. Take this with salt, of course, but it goes with Sakurai's comments on how there wasn't enough time to bring everyone back despite his desire to do so.

Curiously, Mewtwo has a similar situation: appeared in Melee and was planned for Brawl, which is essentially the reverse of Lucas and Wolf, as stated above.

 

[JamesDNaux]

why wasn't he in the game in the first place?

Nintendo owns Mewtwo.

I think that one went by you.


It has nothing to do with being owned by Nintendo, the point is that not being in the base game means nothing.

 

[OmegaSorin]

I still think that, after Mewtwo, Wolf and Lucas will be the next veterans to be DLC.

The facts:
- They were considered for Melee: Lucas was meant as a Ness replacement but Mother 3 was cancelled, and Wolf was meant as the Fox clone but then it was decided that Falco would look more unique compared to Fox.
- They were in Brawl alongside the characters that out-prioritized them in Melee and returned once more for this game.
- The fact they were in Brawl means they don't take as much work as doing a character from scratch like the newcomers (except Lucina and Dark Pit) and Mewtwo (whose Melee data was too outdated to be used on a newer engine).
- Some of their moves have been made custom moves for Fox and Ness. For me, this suggests that work was put into them, but were scrapped, so they put some leftover data to use.
- There was a rumor that the team had to choose between Ness and Lucas as there wouldn't be enough time to implement both. Take this with salt, of course, but it goes with Sakurai's comments on how there wasn't enough time to bring everyone back despite his desire to do so.

Curiously, Mewtwo has a similar situation: appeared in Melee and was planned for Brawl, which is essentially the reverse of Lucas and Wolf, as stated above.

I'm not to sure about Lucas and Wolf, mainly because of #4 of your point, if they implemented, or planned to implement, Wolf and Lucas why would they give their moves to Fox and Ness? That seems silly in my opinion, cause now we have more clone moves. Which at first glance isn't that bad, but at further glances one would realize that the two fighters are not supposed to be clone characters..

(Which by the way is the worst part of Dark Pit, who in Uprising was trying to be as different from Pit as possible, but yet he is a perfect clone of Pit in smash, GG Sakurai... /Sarcasm)

I would love to see Wolf, not so much Lucas, but I really don't see either, and if they do hopefully they'll have different moves so they won't have clone moves of what Ness and Fox have.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Escape Rope as Up-B? I'd play it. Then again, I've also heard of a moveset where PT throws out a different Pokemon for each attack (example: Scyther Pidgey using Fly for Up-B, Rattata using Quick Attack for Forward-B, etc), which sounds like it could be pretty cool, although I wonder how they'd deal with the delay between button input-throwing pokeball-attack happening, unless the animation was super fast.

That's the thing, Pidgey is fine in that case. However, using Pokemon attacks for a lot of moves could strain the 3DS, so it might be harder to work with. But using tons of various items could work easier. Escape Rope I like more, but they removed normal Tether Recoveries, so...(albeit, for balance).

And those Pokemon can just appear out of nowhere while he holds his Pokeballs. That animation is kind of useless when it hinders the game.

 

[redroses]

Oh My God!
I am crying tears of joy, my german gaming store already got smash U and starting selling it!! Of course I got myself a copy right away! I am soooo hyped!!

 

[OmegaSorin]

Oh My God!
I am crying tears of joy, my german gaming store already got smash U and starting selling it!! Of course I got myself a copy right away! I am soooo hyped!!

Congratulations I look forward to fighting with you at some point!

 

[Kenith]

I think that one went by you.
It has nothing to do with being owned by Nintendo, the point is that not being in the base game means nothing.

I know what you meant. But it's still wrong.
I can imagine it would take a lot of work and negotiation to get Snake into the game. Surely they would want to get that out of the way from the beginning, no? Why would they put that kind of work into content that isn't even in the base game? It really depends on how they distribute the content. Snake isn't just a veteran, he's a veteran owned by someone else entirely. And unlike Mewtwo, Snake doesn't have the entire fanbase clamouring for him to come back.
I like Snake too, but you can't say he's a guarantee and expect to get away with it.

 

[Knuckles the Knuckles]

Oh My God!
I am crying tears of joy, my german gaming store already got smash U and starting selling it!! Of course I got myself a copy right away! I am soooo hyped!!

I wish my shop got its stuff early :/

But Im happy for ya.

 

[Frostwraith]

I'm not to sure about Lucas and Wolf, mainly because of #4 of your point, if they implemented, or planned to, Wolf and Lucas why would they give their moves to Fox and Ness? That seems silly in my opinion, cause now we have more clone moves. Which at first glance isn't that bad, but at further glances one would realize that the two fighters are not supposed to be clone characters..

What I suggested is exactly the reverse of what you just said...

I suspect that Wolf and Lucas were planned and were in development at one point, but were scrapped. They had some data that could be used for custom special moves and went ahead to use the data for something.

Should they return, they could have different custom options. Wolf and Lucas have very significant differences from Fox and Lucas. The special moves and Final Smashes are their only similarities.

(Which by the way is the worst part of Dark Pit, who in Uprising was trying to be as different from Pit as possible, but yet he is a perfect clone of Pit in smash, GG Sakurai... /Sarcasm)

Dark Pit, like Lucina and Dr. Mario, was meant as a costume swap for Pit, not unlike Alph and the 7 Koopalings.

They were separated because they were given some differences in their movesets during balancing and were split off. It was a last minute thing with little to no bearing on the grand scheme of things.

Also, ironically, though Dark Pit's moveset may be 99% the same as Pit's, it's actually very true to source material. Sure, Pit and Dark Pit are very different when it comes to personality and motivations, but they fight and play the exact same in the original game.

 

[SharpMcHappy]

By the way, am I the only one that fears that Mewtwo will either be extremely overpowered or underpowered? Overpowered because he's DLC and he's supposed to be special enough for people to buy him and underpowered so the people who won't buy him don't feel forced to get him. I mean, I trust that Sakurai will do his best to balance him out so he fits in with the rest of the roster, but if he doesn't I'm sure he'll get a lot of crap for it.

 

[OmegaSorin]

Should they return, they could have different custom options. Wolf and Lucas have very significant differences from Fox and Lucas. The special moves and Final Smashes are their only similarities.

Speaking of this, Why the heck do we have Fox, and Falco with the same Final Smash -again-... I mean seriously, is it really that hard to give Fox an Arwing, or Falco an Arwing instead of a tank?

 

[Logsmash]

That's the thing, Pidgey is fine in that case. However, using Pokemon attacks for a lot of moves could strain the 3DS, so it might be harder to work with. But using tons of various items could work easier. Escape Rope I like more, but they removed normal Tether Recoveries, so...(albeit, for balance).

And those Pokemon can just appear out of nowhere while he holds his Pokeballs. That animation is kind of useless when it hinders the game.

Yeah, if they don't bother with the "coming out of the pokeball" animation it'll become much more usable. And the 3DS limitations are a fair point. Now I'm wondering, if they were to implement this, would PT be limited to 6 Pokemon across all his/her attacks? It would make more sense in terms of the Pokemon franchise, but I also think it would be cool if PT had a different Pokemon for each attack.

I just had the best idea ever! (probably not, but hear me out) Ok, two things.

First, you know how at the beginning of Pokemon games your character shrinks down into sprite form? I think it would be cool if PT's entrance animation was the reverse of that (start as a sprite then grow to fighter-size).

Second, I think it would be amazing if one of PT's specials, say Down-B, pulled out a Pokeball (similar to how Peach pulls up turnips or the Links pull up bombs) that could then be tossed out to release a random Pokemon. Now, due to some of the Pokeball Pokemon being very strong, they might have to limit which ones could come out, or make it so you can only pull out a Pokeball every 10 seconds or so (and very small chance to pull out a Master Ball). But if they balanced it properly, that could be a really cool move. Thoughts?

By the way, am I the only one that fears that Mewtwo will either be extremely overpowered or underpowered? Overpowered because he's DLC and he's supposed to be special enough for people to buy him and underpowered so the people who won't buy him don't feel forced to get him. I mean, I trust that Sakurai will do his best to balance him out so he fits in with the rest of the roster, but if he doesn't I'm sure he'll get a lot of crap for it.

Well, think of it this way. At least they can always patch him later on if he's too strong/too weak. But now that you put the idea in my head, I am also afraid.

 

[BluePikmin11]

http://techcrunch.com/2014/11/25/super-smash-bros-for-wii-u-sells-nearly-500k-copies-in-three-days/
Oh yeah!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah, if they don't bother with the "coming out of the pokeball" animation it'll become much more usable. And the 3DS limitations are a fair point. Now I'm wondering, if they were to implement this, would PT be limited to 6 Pokemon across all his/her attacks? It would make more sense in terms of the Pokemon franchise, but I also think it would be cool if PT had a different Pokemon for each attack.

I just had the best idea ever! (probably not, but hear me out) Ok, two things.

First, you know how at the beginning of Pokemon games your character shrinks down into sprite form? I think it would be cool if PT's entrance animation was the reverse of that (start as a sprite then grow to fighter-size).

Second, I think it would be amazing if one of PT's specials, say Down-B, pulled out a Pokeball (similar to how Peach pulls up turnips or the Links pull up bombs) that could then be tossed out to release a random Pokemon. Now, due to some of the Pokeball Pokemon being very strong, they might have to limit which ones could come out, or make it so you can only pull out a Pokeball every 10 seconds or so (and very small chance to pull out a Master Ball). But if they balanced it properly, that could be a really cool move. Thoughts?

Well, think of it this way. At least they can always patch him later on if he's too strong/too weak. But now that you put the idea in my head, I am also afraid.

Those all sound rather interesting to me. I'll have to leave soon, but maybe a good move list for him could be made.

I do agree using a select set of Pokemon works. It should be unused ones among Pokeballs and Player Characters. However, he should use some items too. There's a lot of neat equipment, like the Rocky Helmet.

 

[JamesDNaux]

I know what you meant. But it's still wrong.
I can imagine it would take a lot of work and negotiation to get Snake into the game. Surely they would want to get that out of the way from the beginning, no? Why would they put that kind of work into content that isn't even in the base game? It really depends on how they distribute the content. Snake isn't just a veteran, he's a veteran owned by someone else entirely. And unlike Mewtwo, Snake doesn't have the entire fanbase clamouring for him to come back.
I like Snake too, but you can't say he's a guarantee and expect to get away with it.

Except I never said he was guaranteed, where did you get that notion?

Yes, he's not from Nintendo, but again, that didn't stop him from getting into Brawl. And yes, Sakurai had difficulties getting him into Brawl in the first place, but that's exactly the point I'm trying to make: Sakurai, despite knowing the trouble he had to go through, and despite knowing that there was nothing to gain, still put Snake in Brawl for his friend Kojima, that's dedication. When people say that Snake has no chance to come back as DLC, it's basically saying that Sakurai is turning his back on Kojima now.

This is a completely different matter entirely, Mewtwo had fan demand, but Snake is a direct request from Sakurai's friend.

We know which one mattered more in Brawl, as well.

 

[Kenith]

Except I never said he was guaranteed, where did you get that notion?

Snake... probably has the best chances.

Yes, he's not from Nintendo, but again, that didn't stop him from getting into Brawl. And yes, Sakurai had difficulties getting him into Brawl in the first place, but that's exactly the point I'm trying to make: Sakurai, despite knowing the trouble he had to go through, and despite knowing that there was nothing to gain, still put Snake in Brawl for his friend Kojima, that's dedication. When people say that Snake has no chance to come back as DLC, it's basically saying that Sakurai is turning his back on Kojima now.
This is a completely different matter entirely, Mewtwo had fan demand, but Snake is a direct request from Sakurai's friend.
We know which one mattered more in Brawl, as well.

If Kojima asking for Snake means so much, then why, when he still expressed interest in having Snake in Smash, was he not in, despite being a Brawl veteran?

 

[JamesDNaux]

If Kojima asking for Snake means so much, then why, when he still expressed interest in having Snake in Smash, was he not in, despite being a Brawl veteran?

If fans asking for Mewtwo means so much, then why was Mewtwo not in the game despite being a highly requested veteran?

Oh, but Mewtwo is DLC.

Which is exactly what Snake has a chance to be.

Again, not being in the base game means nothing when almost anything could end up as DLC.

Or you could be asking, why Snake didn't make it into Melee. Well, because Kojima was too late. But then Brawl happened.

Take that situation, but replace Melee with Smash 4 and Brawl with DLC, it's the exact same thing.

 

[Knuckles the Knuckles]

http://techcrunch.com/2014/11/25/super-smash-bros-for-wii-u-sells-nearly-500k-copies-in-three-days/
Oh yeah!

Lets hope it keeps up the steam for a looong time.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Anyone up for a WiiU match?

 

[Kenith]

If fans asking for Mewtwo means so much, then why was Mewtwo not in the game despite being a highly requested veteran?
Oh, but Mewtwo is DLC.
Which is exactly what Snake has a chance to be.
Again, not being in the base game means nothing when almost anything could end up as DLC.
Or you could be asking, why Snake didn't make it into Melee. Well, because Kojima was too late. But then Brawl happened.
Take that situation, but replace Melee with Smash 4 and Brawl with DLC, it's the exact same thing.

Ugh, I give up.

 

[Frostwraith]

Snake's chances aren't the best. At least, not when compared to other veterans.

This is how I'd place each veteran's chances in tiers:
A. Wolf, Lucas (Brawl veterans)
B. Ivysaur, Squirtle (Maybe they were in Brawl just because of the Pokémon Trainer mechanic? Pertinent question, but they're otherwise on the same boat as Wolf and Lucas.)
C. Snake, Ice Climbers, Pichu, Roy (Brawl veterans with complicated issues and Melee clones without very significant popularity and demand)
D. Young Link (Not going to happen as long as Toon Link is around. The only saving grace would be a transformation gimmick, but those are gone as well.)

 

[BluePikmin11]

If fans asking for Mewtwo means so much, then why was Mewtwo not in the game despite being a highly requested veteran?

Oh, but Mewtwo is DLC.

Which is exactly what Snake has a chance to be.

Again, not being in the base game means nothing when almost anything could end up as DLC.

Or you could be asking, why Snake didn't make it into Melee. Well, because Kojima was too late. But then Brawl happened.

Take that situation, but replace Melee with Smash 4 and Brawl with DLC, it's the exact same thing.

What are trying to say here exactly?

Snake's chances aren't the best. At least, not when compared to other veterans.

This is how I'd place each veteran's chances in tiers:
A. Wolf, Lucas (Brawl veterans)
B. Ivysaur, Squirtle (Maybe they were in Brawl just because of the Pokémon Trainer mechanic? Pertinent question, but they're otherwise on the same boat as Wolf and Lucas.)
C. Snake, Ice Climbers, Pichu, Roy (Brawl veterans with complicated issues and Melee clones without very significant popularity and demand)
D. Young Link (Not going to happen as long as Toon Link is around. The only saving grace would be a transformation gimmick, but those are gone as well.)

I'd put Ivysaur and Squirtle at C tier.
There should really be just three tiers.

 

[MSmariosonic]

Oh wowzers... Snack talk.
Oh.. never mind..

 

[Frostwraith]

I'd put Ivysaur and Squirtle at C tier.
There should really be just three tiers.

What kind of reasoning is that, seriously?

A is for likely. C is unlikely. B is something in-between.

Ice Climbers and Snake have complications none other of the Brawl veterans have. Squirtle and Ivysaur may not have such issues, but they don't have as much of an impact as the other Pokémon characters.

Roy and Pichu are also unlikely as they were clones and don't have much going for them other than returning for the sake of returning. I would be happy with their return, don't get me wrong, but I doubt they would be DLC sellers unless packed in with more appealing content.

Young Link would feel redundant with Toon Link around as Sakurai stated they both fill the same role: that of a younger version of Link. Unless Young Link was given a major overhaul to justify his inclusion (something I don't see happening), his chances are as low as the depths of hell. Hence, the D tier: not happening.

 

[JamesDNaux]

What are trying to say here exactly?

I'm just saying that people shouldn't just outright dismiss Snake.

Somehow people took that as me saying Snake was a shoe-in.

 

[Blargg888]

So I just got off on break.
Now I'll finally have time to play Wii U against friends/Smash 3ds against other people here!
I won't be getting home 'til 6:30 tonight though, but whatever.

 

[Knight Dude]

Did I miss anything?

 

[SlickWylde]

What are your favorite things to do when you're playing non competitively?

My friends and I usually have dumb competitions like "Who can make the worst, most annoying, painful stage" and we all have to play on these horrible stages. We ALL end up losing in reality, but it's a lot of fun! :D

 

[Kenith]

I'm just saying that people shouldn't just outright dismiss Snake.
Somehow people took that as me saying Snake was a shoe-in.

You said his chances were the best of the cut veterans, over Wolf and Lucas. If that isn't saying he's a "shoo-in" I don't know what is.

 

[Knight Dude]

What are your favorite things to do when you're playing non competitively?

My friends and I usually have dumb competitions like "Who can make the worst, most annoying, painful stage" and we all have to play on these horrible stages. We ALL end up losing in reality, but it's a lot of fun! :D

One single thing. Poke Ball Battles. They are the hypest.

Then again I'm also a fan of Sudden Death fights too.

 

[Blargg888]

You said his chances were the best of the cut veterans, over Wolf and Lucas. If that isn't saying he's a "shoo-in" I don't know what is.

It's not saying shoo-in at all. It's just stating a probability.

 

[JamesDNaux]

You said his chances were the best of the cut veterans, over Wolf and Lucas. If that isn't saying he's a "shoo-in" I don't know what is.

Possibly.


Do you know what chance means?


Just because something has a chance to happen does't mean that it will happen.

 

[praline]

Hey 2 questions... Is the Mike Song from Brawl in Smash 4? Also is Isaac still an assist?

 

[Blargg888]

One single thing. Poke Ball Battles. They are the hypest.

Then again I'm also a fan of Sudden Death fights too.

2.0, 300%, fast, bunny hood, Smart bombs on high, Custom stage, surround the platform with cannons that point inward, maybe add a few platforms, leave as little space between cannons as possible, 99 stock.
Chaos, physically manfested.