Smash 4 does not seem to have strong competition.

[JustSomeScrub]

Zero recently commented on this and it's something I've been thinking about for a while. There's no doubt when Zero goes to a tournament that he's going to win and win very easily at that. It's one thing for there to be a favorite, but on this level is a different story. I feel no one outside of Zero really plays the game that seriously and maybe a few players in Japan.

Allow me to elaborate. Sure a lot of players are playing Smash 4 but a large chunk of these are former casual players who recently got into competitive Smash after it blew up a short while ago and naturally chose the newest one (easiest, no huge tech skill barriers etc.). I'm willing to bet this holds true for a lot of people on this very board. This group might produce huge threats in a few years but not likely anytime soon, they haven't put in the work to get good at this engine as these former Brawl players like Zero have. Which leads me to my next point.

But the old school top Brawl players, the ones who actually could challenge Zero (Zero was never this dominant in Brawl, didn't even come close to winning the biggest tournaments except for one), seem to have largely fallen off and the few that remain again do not seem to care that much. Sure they might enter tournaments once they happen in their area and are definitely the best players after Zero, but I feel they don't practice on the same level of Zero.

 

[HeavyLobster]

None of the other Smash 4 players except for M2K(who splits his time between games more) play competitively for a living, and the extra time investment that allows matters a lot in a new game. It's no surprise that he's ahead of everyone else for this reason alone. As more people begin to truly master the game the gap will shrink, and Zero will need to adapt and continue to outtrain people to stay on top. The other old school Brawl players are generally still around and doing well, just not as well as Zero.

 

[Master Raven]

M2K was in a similar position at the beginning of Brawl. He was virtually unstoppable for a good year. There was even a tournament where Dojo took a set off him but preceded to lose the second set ala Mr. ConCon vs Zero. People are getting better, and eventually we will see some more competition on par with Zero.

 

[Smasher89]

Very strange indeed, either its a decent strategy for EVO right now to stay under the radar, or people chars have already get severely nerfed, just check Rosalinas tournamentresults from the start to 1.04 for example, compare that to after. I would not be suprised if someone else wins EVO just saying.

 

[RayNoire]

I think right now (at least in US scenes) we're seeing a bit of a scrub mentality from even top-level players. Whether it's "Customs are lame, I'm not going to use them" or "let's just gentleman's to Smashville" or "camping is lame, so I'm just going to approach all the time." We also see lots of players get easily flustered and salty, and they play much worse afterwards. Regardless of how you feel about stages, customs, or whatever, you should still be playing to win. As long as people aren't playing to win, the guy that's literally playing for his livelihood is going to win.

 

[Shouxiao]

Give the meta time to develop. In many fighting games during the first months or year there is a player that dominates. Once people learn the game and the meta and rulesets develop there is going to be a heck of a lot more strong competition.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Zero plays nothing but Smash, since his lively hood depends on it. If not no money for Zero.
Most other players don't really take this game very seriously for many reasons, myself personally I don't take it very seriously because I haven't actually found my way into the local scene due to being in the military so I just play online when I get the chance, while there have been a few who have become semi-famous in the Brawl community who started playing online, I don't feel like it's the best way to learn. Online can be helpful but in the end my growth as a player is becoming stagnant because I don't know what I'm doing wrong, could be doing something better, or I'm sandbagging etc. Also I have an issue with sandbagging too much.
Also I play Falco
Others, who are brand new are just now learning what it takes to play this game at a high level. You stated the new casual players are playing this. They still have no idea what they are doing. It's evident that most don't when you see a comment or this and that asking about "Can you wavedash/l-cancel/other thing we couldn't do since Brawl?"
Don't get me wrong, I started that way myself but it seems like all they want to do is learn how to style on their friends not become the next big Smasher.

Zero also has the luxury of already being already established in whatever scene he happens to find himself in, everyone knows him and wants to play him. Compared to a brand new guy the experience gap is too big.

 

[ぱみゅ]

To be fair, he practices 12+ hours a day and that surely plays a huge role.
Heck, him alone has probably played this game more hours than 99% of other tournament regulars will by the time the game reaches its first anniversary.
I bet If more people had that luxury, the metagame would surely advance way faster than it does right now.



Anyway, I invite you to look at these:
*Warning: the following are Brawl matches, and I frown upon any kind backlash against Brawl*
[Game 1] [Game 2] This is how Brawl metagame played out at January 2011. That means, almost THREE YEARS after its release.
[Full Set] And this is how it was played at one of the last International events it was featured at.

I don't know if you notice the changes, but I'll break it down:
At the 2011 set, they are too imprecise with their moves, more worried to keep hitting the opponent than to exert any pressure, barely edgeguarding except for few ledge releases and allowing the opponent to recover otherwise.
But the 2014 set showed how they positioned themselves at the right distance where they would catch any opening with Dash Attack or Grab, whenever the opponent was up in the air they jumped to pressure with Uairs (forcing reactions, making them more vulnerable), and even went deep off the stage to pressure recoveries, to the point MKs developed Mach Tornado recoveries as a viable option against a Meta Knight.

The metagame didn't really advance much until Apex 2012 where the japanese people destroyed the bracket, and others learned from them all kinds of new technology, some mechanics that were known but didn't really got exploited, obscure characters whose matchups were hidden until then, and most importantly they taught us all to actually PRACTICE (which wasn't considered important because it was considered a "basic" game) to master certain things like powershielding every projectile like Falco's lasers or ROB's stuff, or to always space well, or learn the very maximum of your recovery.

And if top players don't put too much practice this time again, they should be ready for another rude awakening.
ZeRo's dominance and callout may be just a warning.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Zero recently commented on this and it's something I've been thinking about for a while. There's no doubt when Zero goes to a tournament that he's going to win and win very easily at that. It's one thing for there to be a favorite, but on this level is a different story. I feel no one outside of Zero really plays the game that seriously and maybe a few players in Japan.

Allow me to elaborate. Sure a lot of players are playing Smash 4 but a large chunk of these are former casual players who recently got into competitive Smash after it blew up a short while ago and naturally chose the newest one (easiest, no huge tech skill barriers etc.). I'm willing to bet this holds true for a lot of people on this very board. This group might produce huge threats in a few years but not likely anytime soon, they haven't put in the work to get good at this engine as these former Brawl players like Zero have. Which leads me to my next point.

But the old school top Brawl players, the ones who actually could challenge Zero (Zero was never this dominant in Brawl, didn't even come close to winning the biggest tournaments except for one), seem to have largely fallen off and the few that remain again do not seem to care that much. Sure they might enter tournaments once they happen in their area and are definitely the best players after Zero, but I feel they don't practice on the same level of Zero.

The man is LITERALLY playing to survive.

Of course no one is on his level. It wouldn't make sense if anyone was.

 

[T0MMY]

I think right now (at least in US scenes) we're seeing a bit of a scrub mentality from even top-level players. Whether it's "Customs are lame, I'm not going to use them" or "let's just gentleman's to Smashville" or "camping is lame, so I'm just going to approach all the time."

There may have been some strong public opinions expressed by top level players expressing why Custom Moves are not as competitive (or maybe a few of them said "lame", but everyone's entitled to their opinions) - But the rest of your claims I'd like to see some evidence for.

Top level players do not get to top level from being scrubby not playing to win even if it means camping, so I am interested in exactly where you came to this conclusion.

 

[thehard]

Most players don't even have a handle on their main yet, much less their matchups. Give it time.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Top level players do not get to top level from being scrubby not playing to win even if it means camping, so I am interested in exactly where you came to this conclusion.

(Most) Top Players got there for having good fundamentals, not for having good understanding of the game, or opinions towards it.

 

[T0MMY]

(Most) Top Players got there for having good fundamentals, not for having good understanding of the game, or opinions towards it.

There are a number of factors that separate the top level players from the people who go 0-2. There's plenty of resources from those who get there online and I've never heard anyone who took top 10 at a notable tournament say it was because they refused to camp or take advantage of a legitimate situation.

Not saying certain situations do not transpire where scrubby things happen, but proclaiming that NOT using customs is "scrubby" is a statement that certainly has no merits - unless meaning a tournament using Custom Fighters ON and someone refuses to take advantage of the rules unless they believe not using them leads to something greater (which is probably to make a statement about how scrubby the Customs are to begin with and if the majority of top players refuse to use them then it makes a statement that Custom Fighters should be OFF, which I could agree is a noble cause for their goals).

Agreeing to Smashville is also not a scrubby thing to do, ultimately a Stage MUST be agreed upon (by whatever method) and an Agreement Method is the most efficient way of starting a match - just because most top level players prefer an environment that promotes player vs player interaction doesn't mean that it is scrubby to agree to a stage the promotes that kind of competition.
Just because someone has an opinion that top players should select a Stage they like for whatever subjective opinion does not mean that they are entitled to make demands to change rules to enforce an opinion.

I do agree that it is scrubby to not camp in a situation that benefits the competitor, however players can employ whichever strategy they want. And I still would like to see where a top level player has said this.

In conclusion, I think many players are "scrubby" and it isn't for the reasons I responded to (until I can verify where this really occurred).

 

[ぱみゅ]

Ehhh... what?

I won't talk for RayNore and what he wanted to say, but I'll at least explain I what meant:
I didn't mean people don't want to get advantages, but the fact most players get scrubby AFTER they lost.
Calling Customs Moves and some Stages "jank" and whining to having them banned simply because they didn't know about them, and instead of acknowledging their ignorance, learn from the mistake and taking that new knowledge to the "next time", they would cry over spilled milk over and over.
This is more notable when Top Players do it because their voices DO get listened to.
And furthermore, most Top Players DO complain like that.

 

[Smasher89]

The thing is politics (getting the ruleset towards your preffered style) does work, i wouldnt call it a legit strategy since i´d rather let the game decide that but it works, just look on how the rosalina and diddy complaining got the characters nerfed, and since it works its easy to see why its used, however you wont get to be untouchable for years if you do decide to take that road when it comes to getting better.

 

[RayNoire]

There may have been some strong public opinions expressed by top level players expressing why Custom Moves are not as competitive (or maybe a few of them said "lame", but everyone's entitled to their opinions) - But the rest of your claims I'd like to see some evidence for.

Top level players do not get to top level from being scrubby not playing to win even if it means camping, so I am interested in exactly where you came to this conclusion.

If the whole scene has a scrub mentality, then the top players can still be scrubs. Or they could have the fundamentals/reaction time/pattern recognition such that they beat people who do utilize every advantage but just aren't as good.

And yeah, I was referring to customs on tournaments. You can run tournaments with customs off or a Smashville-only stagelist and that's fine (although maybe not as useful for nationals/majors practice), but if those options are out there and you're not taking advantage of them because of some honor code--I mean, that's the definition of scrub.

As for evidence, I'd cite anyone vs. ADHD Villager, or the recent tournament where FOW took ZeRo to FD 7 times over the course of Winner's Finals and Grands. Hell, anytime anyone "runs it back" anywhere I raise an eyebrow--particularly Smashville vs. Sheik.

 

[AnchorTea]

I said it once and i'll say it again...

It saddens me that a lot of the Sm4sh community are NOW just starting to try to get better when ZeRo insulted thousands of Sm4sh players.

This is why I don't believe that 3/4 of the Sm4sh community will ever meet their competitive Smash Bros goals, because ChileZeRo was right. That 3/4 ARE lazy. They think that playing hours on For Glory will make them improve, but when in reality they're just hindering themselves. For Glory is filled with players that use the same tactics over and over. They don't put variety in their playstyle at all. Seriously, go on an FG match and I can assure that 90% of the time, they will start out with a D-throw combo. That's why FG is unreliable, and even if it was like, let's say Smash Ladder, you still can't improve the way you want just by playing it.

The 3/4 just doesn't know what potential they have. They should be trying to find out their MU's, their main's potential, and tactics that differ from most people. That's why players like NinjaLink , RiBBZee , MikeKirby , and MJG are very good players and looked up to, because they decided to take the time to learn. The time to figure out potential. The time to find out new tactics that they used in order for them to be successful!

 

[thehard]

To expand on my point a little... good players still make A LOT of mistakes in high-level matches. Not to imply mistakes ever truly go away even at the highest level of play, but the amount made can certainly diminish or be replaced with "I chose the worst-best option". How many times have you seen players misjudge their own character's airspeed/trajectory and miss easy off-stage hits? Or thrown out clearly unsafe moves with no advantage to gain from doing so? Everyone has soooo much learning to do...

 

[T0MMY]

I didn't mean people don't want to get advantages, but the fact most players get scrubby AFTER they lost.
Calling Customs Moves and some Stages "jank" and whining to having them banned simply because they didn't know about them, and instead of acknowledging their ignorance, learn from the mistake and taking that new knowledge to the "next time", they would cry over spilled milk over and over.
This is more notable when Top Players do it because their voices DO get listened to.
And furthermore, most Top Players DO complain like that.

Top players "whined" about items too because they didn't know how to handle them. Not sure if you are arguing for or against Customs in the same manner, but I'm not really seeing a point here. Top players cry about things and they get listened to? What's the solution?

The alternative sounds like we should be listening to what the losers cry over instead of the winners.
Not sure that's going to be a popular solution.

Again, I'd rather not just pidgeon-hole top players as those who just whine about something instead of adapting. Pretty sure adaptation is a key skill to becoming a top player.

If the whole scene has a scrub mentality, then the top players can still be scrubs.

That's a very big "if" you've got there.

And yeah, I was referring to customs on tournaments. You can run tournaments with customs off or a Smashville-only stagelist and that's fine (although maybe not as useful for nationals/majors practice), but if those options are out there and you're not taking advantage of them because of some honor code--I mean, that's the definition of scrub.

Well, not really defined if these options are "out there".
There are tournaments that run Coin Battle, Items ON, Custom Fighters ON, and various house rules... I don't think ignoring these options that are being used "out there" is being scrubby... I think there's priorities for practice.

As for evidence, I'd cite anyone vs. ADHD Villager, or the recent tournament where FOW took ZeRo to FD 7 times over the course of Winner's Finals and Grands. Hell, anytime anyone "runs it back" anywhere I raise an eyebrow--particularly Smashville vs. Sheik.

Not sure why you are mentioning ADHD as Villager since he was camping like a boyscout, wasn't your point saying that top players do NOT camp because they don't like it?
Here, I'll bring up the quote:

Whether it's "Customs are lame, I'm not going to use them" or "let's just gentleman's to Smashville" or "camping is lame, so I'm just going to approach all the time."

 

[Strider755]

Yeah the main reason I play Smash 4 is because my only system is a 3DS, and it's the first game in the series where I can actually practice for comp. play. I'd play PM if I had the means, but I dont. Anyway, I think the Melee elitists might have something to do with the current play pool.

 

[RayNoire]

Not sure why you are mentioning ADHD as Villager since he was camping like a boyscout, wasn't your point saying that top players do NOT camp because they don't like it?

Right, so when someone does camp, most players don't seem to know what to do, since no one does it. A lot of times playing optimally against Villager camping involves gaining the percent lead and then just camping yourself. Of course, no one wants to do that, which is why ADHD had more success than his strategy really deserved. When someone did do it, he lost.

 

[T0MMY]

Right, so when someone does camp, most players don't seem to know what to do, since no one does it. A lot of times playing optimally against Villager camping involves gaining the percent lead and then just camping yourself. Of course, no one wants to do that, which is why ADHD had more success than his strategy really deserved. When someone did do it, he lost.

The way this was stated just sounds like "damage control" regarding custom moves, specifically aimed at apologizing for Villager strats that develop from custom moves promoting camping to exploit the rather anti-competitive %-based win rulings.

I am not sure if you are defending or against utilizing the custom set which create what could be seen as an unfavorable competition, but either way people have been dealing with camping for years - its' a strat in Smash that really doesn't change, so the response will be the same and part of fundamentals, so I remain skeptical that "no one does it" and "most" players "don't seem to know what to do".

ADHD said he did not capitalize on it completely *, so his "success" could have been greater - people seem to know this which is why I am having to snooze my way through a lot of Trollagers in tournaments I attend that use Custom Moves. Sigh.

 

[T4ylor]

Camping is why I like the idea of Sudden Death rather than a % ruling. If you're at the same stock and have it on then you force them to approach you if they don't want to risk losing in Sudden Death. Most matches don't go to time, but you can at least make the ones that do less defensive by playing it through.

 

[RayNoire]

The way this was stated just sounds like "damage control" regarding custom moves, specifically aimed at apologizing for Villager strats that develop from custom moves promoting camping to exploit the rather anti-competitive %-based win rulings.

I am not sure if you are defending or against utilizing the custom set which create what could be seen as an unfavorable competition, but either way people have been dealing with camping for years - its' a strat in Smash that really doesn't change, so the response will be the same and part of fundamentals, so I remain skeptical that "no one does it" and "most" players "don't seem to know what to do".

ADHD said he did not capitalize on it completely *, so his "success" could have been greater - people seem to know this which is why I am having to snooze my way through a lot of Trollagers in tournaments I attend that use Custom Moves. Sigh.

Not defending nor apologizing. I'm not fully pro-customs myself (particularly since my new main literally has none), but if someone enters a customs-on tourney, they have to be prepared for customs and take advantage of whatever options they have. For a lot of characters, that means taking the customs that are basically strict upgrades of the defaults. But you still see players run all defaults against their own best interest, particularly in regions that switch between customs-on and customs-off events.

We're talking about player skill here. And when one player strolls through a bracket with a strategy that straight-out loses to Pikachu and the B button, it makes you wonder about the mentality of the players that let that happen.

 

[T0MMY]

Not defending nor apologizing. I'm not fully pro-customs myself (particularly since my new main literally has none), but if someone enters a customs-on tourney, they have to be prepared for customs and take advantage of whatever options they have. For a lot of characters, that means taking the customs that are basically strict upgrades of the defaults. But you still see players run all defaults against their own best interest, particularly in regions that switch between customs-on and customs-off events.

I can still see the reason about players not using Custom Moves to make a point of competition the same way they had to not use items to make a point.
Either that or it really is better for them to not use them because they haven't unlocked them and are not used to using them so there's no way it would be an advantage.
So I'm just going to have to take what you say with a grain of salt.

We're talking about player skill here. And when one player strolls through a bracket with a strategy that straight-out loses to Pikachu and the B button, it makes you wonder about the mentality of the players that let that happen.

Maybe because nobody had a Pikachu.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Zero recently commented on this and it's something I've been thinking about for a while. There's no doubt when Zero goes to a tournament that he's going to win and win very easily at that. It's one thing for there to be a favorite, but on this level is a different story. I feel no one outside of Zero really plays the game that seriously and maybe a few players in Japan.

Allow me to elaborate. Sure a lot of players are playing Smash 4 but a large chunk of these are former casual players who recently got into competitive Smash after it blew up a short while ago and naturally chose the newest one (easiest, no huge tech skill barriers etc.). I'm willing to bet this holds true for a lot of people on this very board. This group might produce huge threats in a few years but not likely anytime soon, they haven't put in the work to get good at this engine as these former Brawl players like Zero have. Which leads me to my next point.

But the old school top Brawl players, the ones who actually could challenge Zero (Zero was never this dominant in Brawl, didn't even come close to winning the biggest tournaments except for one), seem to have largely fallen off and the few that remain again do not seem to care that much. Sure they might enter tournaments once they happen in their area and are definitely the best players after Zero, but I feel they don't practice on the same level of Zero.

Justin wong won 3 years of mvc2 straight foh.

 

[RayNoire]

I can still see the reason about players not using Custom Moves to make a point of competition the same way they had to not use items to make a point.
Either that or it really is better for them to not use them because they haven't unlocked them and are not used to using them so there's no way it would be an advantage.
So I'm just going to have to take what you say with a grain of salt.

Are they playing to win, or playing to make a point?

And wouldn't a better way to make a point be doing what ADHD did and try to abuse custom moves to create degenerative games?

Not having enough practice with them is valid though.

Maybe because nobody had a Pikachu.

ADHD really didn't have a Villager either. Also I don't think Jtails secondaries Pikachu.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Camping is why I like the idea of Sudden Death rather than a % ruling. If you're at the same stock and have it on then you force them to approach you if they don't want to risk losing in Sudden Death. Most matches don't go to time, but you can at least make the ones that do less defensive by playing it through.

Oh no, camping happens with sudden death rule sets as well. The difference is that it's simply the losing party who tries to bring it to stall it out.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Top players "whined" about items too because they didn't know how to handle them. Not sure if you are arguing for or against Customs in the same manner, but I'm not really seeing a point here. Top players cry about things and they get listened to? What's the solution?

Stop lumping customs with options such as items and coin battle. If you need to troll to have a point its better not to bother. You know why items and coin are not comparable to customs.

 

[PUK]

Defensive gameplay is something i never see but always hear about. Really it's not that common unless you play a character with very bad offensive option, and even there you have to put offensive pressure to end stock.

 

[T0MMY]

Are they playing to win, or playing to make a point?

Probably both, considering that an acceptable way to show how something is not good for competitive play you abuse it.
That's what ADHD did, up to people to make up their mind about it.

ADHD really didn't have a Villager either. Also I don't think Jtails secondaries Pikachu.

As he more or less stated in the post I referenced. I think that makes an even stronger statement about the situation: Even without a Villager he still profited, so guess it's up to the rest of the community to take it from there (already talks about banning certain combinations of Custom Moves or specific Customs outright, as well as instating a Ledge-grab Limit - gag!).

Oh no, camping happens with sudden death rule sets as well. The difference is that it's simply the losing party who tries to bring it to stall it out.

Well good, that's the BETTER way of handling it - infrequent and legitimate wins by software authority, not by arbitrary decision.

Camping is a viable strategy when the circumstances permit and if the TO, competitors, and community are going to be using a Time option they had better be prepared to accept these circumstances. If it's shown to be a problem, don't use the timer and DQ anyone abusing stalling (this rule is already used in tournaments).

Stop lumping customs with options such as items and coin battle. If you need to troll to have a point its better not to bother.

Please stop focusing on just one small part of my posts here as some kind of mudslinging and stay on topic. Let me know what you think about the Villager camping strat, decision between 2 or 3 stocks, Sudden Death vs %-based overruling, or any number of points that have been brought up regarding the affect on competitive value of SSB4. Thanks.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Well good, that's the BETTER way of handling it - infrequent and legitimate wins by software authority, not by arbitrary decision.

Wins by the less skilled player are inevitable, but they're generally best avoided when possible.

The % system we use may be far from perfect, but I think it's more fair.

 

[wingedarcher7]

I'm sure the competitive scene will grow in time, people just need to get into the feel of this game and more people will rise up and practice more often, contesting ZeRo and maybe even going above him. I think it's good that he started riling up the competition by saying what he did, and I'm sure it'll definitely encourage people to push harder.

 

[T0MMY]

The % system we use may be far from perfect, but I think it's more fair.

Please explain how arbitrarily awarding an artificial win to someone who failed to defeat a defending strategy by their opponent is more fair than playing the game the way it was designed.

I'm sure the competitive scene will grow in time

Yes, given some time.
In just over a month we'll have over 1,500 people attending an event ;^)

 

[ZephyrZ]

Please explain how arbitrarily awarding an artificial win to someone who failed to defeat a defending strategy by their opponent is more fair than playing the game the way it was designed.

1. What? In order to win with the current method, you already have to have an advantage. It's more often the loser who failed to defeat a defending strategy, in this case.
2. Just because the game was designed that way, doesn't mean it's fair or ideal. Random chances, by their very nature, just aren't fair. Melee wasn't designed to be played by utilizing wave dashes, but how many competitive Melee players will tell you that

 

[T0MMY]

1. What? In order to win with the current method, you already have to have an advantage. It's more often the loser who failed to defeat a defending strategy, in this case.
2. Just because the game was designed that way, doesn't mean it's fair or ideal. Random chances, by their very nature, just aren't fair. Melee wasn't designed to be played by utilizing wave dashes, but how many competitive Melee players will tell you that

1. I think you may be interjecting your concepts of "winner" and "loser" onto the game here. When the timer hits 0:00 and nobody has won they BOTH failed and a tied game results (according to the game). In order to break a tie the software determines a next-hit-wins situation, and if nobody has won within a time limit then it is a test of reflexes. The "winner" is clearly determined after this without an arbitrary decision synthetically awarded to a player that one thinks is "winning" when clearly they failed.
2. If you are proposing it is not fair then you will have to prove why. Out-of-game rules are not supposed to take precedence unless clearly fulfilling the criteria in competition. Not sure what "random chances" you are referring to, but you clearly don't have the same concept of what "fair" is that I do - look it up, fair is equality in Smash (a random chance is equally affecting either player) and/or following the rules, which is to say what the software functions as unless given exact criteria, NOT making up our own rules because of subjective opinions saying what we think is "fair" who we think is "winning" despite what the game is clearly, obviously and exactly displaying to the contrary.

If you can get past these points I'd be inclined to agree with you, but right now it just seems anti-competitive.

 

[PUK]

Do you know soccer? When a game end with a tie there is rules to determine the winner. One of them looks a lot like Sudden death: the first team which win a point win the game. And it's indeed fair.
But sudden death go further. There is bob bomb randomly dropping after a short time. To come back to my comparison it would be like if there was canon starting to randomly fire soccer ball to the goal. And it changes everything, because doing nothing bar protect your goal will grant you victory in a short time. And that's not competitive.

 

[Zelder]

I like that, after every single one of T0MMY's posts, someone inevitably says "What?"

Because he makes his posts by using the most tortured, convoluted methods available.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

1. I think you may be interjecting your concepts of "winner" and "loser" onto the game here. When the timer hits 0:00 and nobody has won they BOTH failed and a tied game results (according to the game). In order to break a tie the software determines a next-hit-wins situation, and if nobody has won within a time limit then it is a test of reflexes. The "winner" is clearly determined after this without an arbitrary decision synthetically awarded to a player that one thinks is "winning" when clearly they failed.
2. If you are proposing it is not fair then you will have to prove why. Out-of-game rules are not supposed to take precedence unless clearly fulfilling the criteria in competition. Not sure what "random chances" you are referring to, but you clearly don't have the same concept of what "fair" is that I do - look it up, fair is equality in Smash (a random chance is equally affecting either player) and/or following the rules, which is to say what the software functions as unless given exact criteria, NOT making up our own rules because of subjective opinions saying what we think is "fair" who we think is "winning" despite what the game is clearly, obviously and exactly displaying to the contrary.

If you can get past these points I'd be inclined to agree with you, but right now it just seems anti-competitive.

1. Just because the software was designed to send the players to a environment where any hit is death (Therefore turning the game into a pair of dice) doesn't make it any better. The level of skill that can be shown is severed considerably since the better player can't show his dominance. And the bombs that drop on the stage isn't any help at all, when it drops at a very fast rate and randomly I might add. It's just incredibly luck-based.
2. Fairness isn't just giving equal chance to both players, the point of fairness is show the better player out of the competitors, which sudden death fails to do, as seen in my above post

 

[Charey]

The bom-ombs will appear in random points on the stage, and they CANNOT threaten both players equally, either it will be closer to player one or player two putting who ever is the target of the first bomb at a MASSIVE disadvantage through no player's action and every bomb after will put their target at a potentially game losing disadvantage from neither player's action.

Also once a bomb appears there ceases to be any meaningful interaction between the players, attacking at all is unfeasible because any attack puts you in a state in which you cannot react to a bomb, SD has about as much to do with a normal match as Homerun contest.

We banned even small impact items for the reason of giving a player an unearned advantage that is MUCH MUCH less then what SD gives and without items eliminating the interaction of the people playing the game. If SD was just starting at 300% it could work but with bombs it ceases to have any meaning in determining who is the best fighter.