Small new tech found?

[DLA]

This has likely been "discovered," but even if it has, it's nice to make sure everyone knows it.

Most of us know that you always slide to a stop when you want to turn around while you're sprinting. I always thought it was impossible to do a grounded Gerudo (side B) in the opposite direction of your sprint, without doing that sliding-to-a-stop animation. That's why I always just jumped and did an aerial Gerudo in the opposite direction if I wanted to accomplish this.

I was playing around in the Wifi waiting room when I noticed that you CAN do a grounded Gerudo in the opposite direction. You need to make sure you press the B button FIRST, and then immediately mash the control stick in the opposite direction. If you try to press them at the same time, you'll probably just do the sliding-to-a-stop animation.

Again, it's probably "known," so if it is, let this serve as a nice reminder that it's out there, and is useful as a mindgame or as a trap as you're retreating.

 

[2393Devon]

hmm that sounds intersting im going to try it out if you can, can you get a replay of it i want to see it in action

 

[Magus-Cie]

Wouldn't doing an aerial gerudo in the opposite direction still be more favorable? With an Aerudo, you catch your opponent more by surprise (thus increasing the chance he just does a get up attack) and it does slightly more damage.

Still though, nice find.

EDIT: 200th Post! Wooooo

 

[TP]

This is known. This can actually be done by every (or almost every) character. It is useful, so it's good to have more people know about it.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

B reversal, for short.

 

[DLA]

Yeah, I figured it would work with every character, so I also figured this would already be known.

I thought B reversal was pressing the control stick in the opposite direction you're facing, and THEN pressing B so that your B move goes in the opposite direction. This is more like a "side B reversal."

@Magus-Cie: It's true that aerial Gerudo does more damage initially, but it has no guaranteed followups. If you choose to use one of the guaranteed followups (Jab, Dtilt, Ftilt, instant dash attack), you will do more damage than the aerial Gerudo, and possibly even KO depending on what move you use. It's also easier to chase after grounded Gerudo.

 

[:034:]

It's known, you're just B-reversing it.

Really useful though, so a nice reminder to those who didn't (hey, rather this than another thread about the quake).

 

[illinialex24]

Known since day one.

 

[PK-ow!]

Yeah, I figured it would work with every character, so I also figured this would already be known.

I thought B reversal was pressing the control stick in the opposite direction you're facing, and THEN pressing B so that your B move goes in the opposite direction. This is more like a "side B reversal."

That's a reverse B.

Reverse B is the mechanic that was in Melee, and also 64 if I recall (even though it wasn't needed, since there was no difficulty reversing your neutral special without a side special in that game). It reverses your character just before they do a special. You do it by inputting reverse (or 'backward'), then a special.

You're talking about a B-reversal, which is introduced in this game. It starts the special, then flips your character and his momentum. You do it by inputting a special, then reverse.

 

[Squirrely]

But I thought b reversal's only worked under the following condition:

opposite direction, release, than b-special.

There's no reason for it to work on side-b moves the way he's describing.
I can imagine it starting like that if the move in question is a neutral b. We've all heard about reversing warlock/falcon/donkey punches and just about every neutral b move by pressing B than releasing then swiveling or otherwise end up facing the opposite direction .

Starting a grounded choke (or any non-neutral b-move) by pressing b as the first input sounds new to me.

And it actually sounds applicable, for me, running away then doing a reverse choke because the opponent dropped their shield to attack or chase would be awesome. I try to do it all the time, but I think your method might make it much cleaner. Thanks DLA.

 

[B!squick]

It doesn't just work with Neutral B's, it works Side and even Down B's too. Wave bouncing I think it's called?

 

[Squirrely]

Wave bouncing involves jumping and be launched backwards while using a b-move doesn't it?
This doesn't do that at all.

 

[Sgt. Baker]

It's known, you're just B-reversing it.

Really useful though, so a nice reminder to those who didn't (hey, rather this than another thread about the quake).

The Quake!? You mean you can do a quake with the Down-B rightz!?!?

Sorry, I couldn't help myself, the quake joke never gets old

 

[PK-ow!]

But I thought b reversal's only worked under the following condition:

opposite direction, release, than b-special.

That's a reverse B.

There's no reason for it to work on side-b moves the way he's describing.
I can imagine it starting like that if the move in question is a neutral b. We've all heard about reversing warlock/falcon/donkey punches and just about every neutral b move by pressing B than releasing then swiveling or otherwise end up facing the opposite direction .

Starting a grounded choke (or any non-neutral b-move) by pressing b as the first input sounds new to me.

And it actually sounds applicable, for me, running away then doing a reverse choke because the opponent dropped their shield to attack or chase would be awesome. I try to do it all the time, but I think your method might make it much cleaner. Thanks DLA.

Wow, a lot of misinformation, here. In addition to in-quote replies in cyan...

B-reversals don't exist for every move (or, aren't known to exist for every move) but yes, they do have the form I just described, and that is what's going on for Ganondorf.
EDIT: It's an open question whether Murder Punch has the B-reversal feature. Since the breakdown of the reversal is different from the general mechanics applying to everyone else, one can wonder if it should really be called a B-reversal.

It's also the principle ingredient in Lucas' wavebounce PK fire. As a Ness player, I am also aware that I can B-reverse PK Fire, which I do with the same input as you B-reverse Murder Choke. I wonder if it's the same frame (for us the game checks frame 4 and ignores frame 2 and 3).

We even use it the same way - running away, side-B, then reverse. For us it spaces... and for Ganon (you're supposed to know this, Squirrely!) it lures the opponent.

Wave bouncing involves jumping and be launched backwards while using a b-move doesn't it?
This doesn't do that at all.

Wavebouncing has two components. One, you reverse your character, either with a reverse B, or simply entering a side-B in the reverse direction (it's a non-interesting question whether the latter is realized in virtue of the former on the software level). Then, you do a B-reversal, by inputting 'backward'.

This, as you can derive, has the consequence of (a) firing the side-B in the direction you formerly called 'forward', since you change direction an even number of times (specifically, twice), and (b) reversing your momentum, since you did so an odd number of times (exactly once, to be specific - with the B-reversal).

 

[Squirrely]

I said I was already using this to lure opponents :-/

Anyways

Wavebouncing has two components. One, you reverse your character, either with a reverse B, or simply entering a side-B in the reverse direction (it's a non-interesting question whether the latter is realized in virtue of the former on the software level). Then, you do a B-reversal, by inputting 'backward'.

This, as you can derive, has the consequence of (a) firing the side-B in the direction you formerly called 'forward', since you change direction an even number of times (specifically, twice), and (b) reversing your momentum, since you did so an odd number of times (exactly once, to be specific - with the B-reversal).

What I'm getting is you're saying that there are two parts to doing this move.
1)Side-b away from opponent
2)Side-b using reverse input toward opponent.

So doing this with a choke would go something along the lines of (assuming you're facing right):

Left+b, b+right

It doesn't seem that complicated but I assume it all has to be fired before the first choke can register, which is awful fast. Air choke sounds faster and easier than this. Was that description right? Do you do that as Ness?

This sounds slightly different than what DLA posted, where the input went somewhere along the lines of:

B+right while running left

What am I missing here? Do any of you who claimed this was known actually use this with Ganondorf? Can you explain the motions because they're not matching up with what I'm reading.

 

[Jeet Kune Do]

B-reversing a Wizard foot eh...? Why did I never think of this before?

Ah, I love exploring all the character boards. Lots of useful info.

 

[PK-ow!]

I said I was already using this to lure opponents :-/

Anyways



What I'm getting is you're saying that there are two parts to doing this move.
1)Side-b away from opponent
2)Side-b using reverse input toward opponent.

So doing this with a choke would go something along the lines of (assuming you're facing right):

Left+b, b+right

It doesn't seem that complicated but I assume it all has to be fired before the first choke can register, which is awful fast. Air choke sounds faster and easier than this. Was that description right? Do you do that as Ness?

It's Left+b, right.

Which actually reveals something I was skipping over, and thank you, which is that a reverse B is the input sequence "reverse -> special", whereas a B-reversal is a conditional input, of simply the control stick, which applies when it is used quickly after the onset of a special, in the reverse direction, and for the right move.


For a momentum-setting move like Choke, there isn't much point to B-reversing it; it's used on the ground because you can do it from a run without losing time to a pivot. In the air, I can't imagine why you'd do it - I don't think the ~4 frames of facing the wrong way is going to fake anyone out.

For Ness, this input (Left+B -> right) appears when a Ness is spacing on the ground - if positioning is bad, he runs away, starts a PK Fire, then reverses. He gets good distance and covers himself from any naive ground pursuit (he's frame disadvantaged on the opponent's guard, though).
It also features in our "Firebound" technique - which you won't see a lot of since we've found we need B-stick to do it, and even then it's hard, and we're not sure what reward you even get.

This sounds slightly different than what DLA posted, where the input went somewhere along the lines of:

B+right while running left

What am I missing here?

If he had input that, he wouldn't have observed what he claimed he did (the choke starting to the left, then moving right).

Also, that's absolutely not what he said:

I was playing around in the Wifi waiting room when I noticed that you CAN do a grounded Gerudo in the opposite direction. You need to make sure you press the B button FIRST, and then immediately mash the control stick in the opposite direction.

Emphasis mine, in Plum. Because Plum is my new favorite color. >_>

Do any of you who claimed this was known actually use this with Ganondorf? Can you explain the motions because they're not matching up with what I'm reading.

I do, all the time. When I am chokechaining and predict a wakeup attack, if the range is just right, I'll dash away, then B-reverse the Choke. I do it only because I can, rather than have Ganon skid to a stop, then Choke.


Btw, every time I want to describe the prediction choking, I want to say chainchoking. We should agree that Twilight Prince have the tech in his thread called chokechaining.

 

[Squirrely]

I see where I was getting confused now.

When DLA said hit the B button first, I assumed he meant stop running away and hit b, then quickly hit right.
This confused me since it would just lead to a reverse warlock punch.

The proper way is to hit b WHILE running away and then to quickly reverse the away facing choke by smashing the opposite direction.

It's basically a reverse warlock punch, only with a choke instead.

When you emphasized
"You need to make sure you press the B button FIRST, and then immediately mash the control stick in the opposite direction."
it made me wonder how it was still any different from what I typed (B+right while running left)
While running left, B is the first button pressed. Than right is quickly entered.

Anyways, the solution came when I did my own testing of the move to articulate the wording.

Plum is my favorite kind of Starburst.



Edit: I can't get this to work on Wizard's Foot, grounded or aerial. Suggestions?