Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[Derpnaster]

I know right now Pit is used more at my weekly events because his bow is better.

Honestly I've always seen Dark Pit as the more aggressive high attack full combo machine, while I see Pit as more defensive and dodgy, if you've ever played Kid Icarus Uprising you'll know what I mean, that freaking game is dodge to live at some points

 

[Swevester]

I know right now Pit is used more at my weekly events because his bow is better.

Honestly I've always seen Dark Pit as the more aggressive high attack full combo machine, while I see Pit as more defensive and dodgy, if you've ever played Kid Icarus Uprising you'll know what I mean, that freaking game is dodge to live at some points

Makes sense for the two to be super dodgy, then. Even so, the two play almost exactly identical to each other, with a few MUs being more in favor of one or the other due to the difference in trajectory of their Side Special and the agility in Arrows (the power in Pit's F-Tilt over Pittoo's means almost nothing). This change is more of an alteration (though one could consider it a minor buff to Pit) than anything.

 

[William5000000]

Hello again, KingJigglypuff and others. Here's a little update on the problem I mentioned earlier. I'm going to post this to be more clearer.

Most people seemed to fail to mention this, but the randomness on those Star KOs/Screen KOs and upward Blasts KOs really screw players out of many victories. An example of this is when Ness uses PK Thunder 2 off-stage to hit that opponent, then a Star KO/Screen KO occurs and that character falls to his doom, thus KO'ing himself first and losing the match unfairly. Same with Jigglypuff's Rest off-stage. Another example is when Jigglypuff uses Rest on-stage to score a KO, but the Star KO/Screen KO doesn't occur and that character is severely punished or revenge KO'd. That's very annoying for many players.

So my idea for Patch 1.1.7 is this:

To solve this problem, Star KOs/Screen KOs should only occur for on-stage moves and upward Blast KOs should only occur for off-stage moves. This way, there would be no possible chance for Jigglypuff to get severely punished or revenge KO'd on-stage, and Jigglypuff would not lose in last stock situations, whether Rest scores a KO on-stage or off-stage. Same with Ness, with PK Thunder 2 scoring a KO off-stage. This would make the matches much more smoother, with no unfair wins or losses, as well as unfair punishes.

Here's a link to my thread about this problem:
http://smashboards.com/threads/star-kos-screen-kos-problem-smash-4-wii-u-3ds.438251/

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Another thing I'd like to see improved for Patch 1.1.7 is the quality on those crowd chants, as well as the crowd chanting for that character 8 times like they did in the previous games. Some of the chants are almost impossible to understand what they're saying when that character is cheered at 100% damage or more, and hearing them chant for that character only 3 times is disappointing.

I know this may not be much, but if it's possible, please make it happen. Again, I'll be patient.

----------

Hopefully, I've made myself more clearer about this problem (and others). And hopefully, Nintendo will get the message too. As for the buffs and nerfs for certain characters as well as fixing others and adding certain options and features, I'm fine with whatever happens for Patch 1.1.7 as long as the biggest problem with the matches gets fixed.

 

[Swevester]

Hello again, KingJigglypuff and others. Here's a little update on the problem I mentioned earlier. I'm going to post this to be more clearer.

Most people seemed to fail to mention this, but the randomness on those Star KOs/Screen KOs and upward Blasts KOs really screw players out of many victories. An example of this is when Ness uses PK Thunder 2 off-stage to hit that opponent, then a Star KO/Screen KO occurs and that character falls to his doom, thus KO'ing himself first and losing the match unfairly. Same with Jigglypuff's Rest off-stage. Another example is when Jigglypuff uses Rest on-stage to score a KO, but the Star KO/Screen KO doesn't occur and that character is severely punished or revenge KO'd. That's very annoying for many players.

So my idea for Patch 1.1.7 is this:

- Off-stage moves for every character force upward Blast KOs (Ness' PK Thunder 2, Jigglypuff's Rest, et cetera).
- On-stage moves (ground/air) for every character force Star KOs/Screen KOs (Jigglypuff's Rest, et cetera).

No unfair losses = everyone happy.

And it's got to be in every stage, even on Training Mode. For some dumb reason, Patch 1.1.5 disabled Screen KOs on Training Mode. If you ask me, that's got to return too.

The reason why I suggested off-stage moves to force upward Blast KOs and on-stage moves (ground/air) to force Star KOs/Screen KOs is because the matches would go much more smoother if the randomness on those KOs at the top were removed completely. Another reason why I suggested this (and this is a good reason) is because there are certain others who may want to do certain challenges that involve Star KOs/Screen KOs only, even on the last stock, no matter how weird or stupid they are. Yes, I'm actually thinking of certain others too. I certainly did a challenge (a weird one) in "Smash 64" that involved a Star KO at the end of the match, which was actually part of my goal, and I want to do that same challenge for every "Smash" game, including this one.

Sure, there might be times where both characters get knocked at the top and are Star KO'd/Screen KO'd at the same time, but that's extremely rare. Same with upward Blast KOs. When you think about it, double KOs in fighting games are extremely rare.

Here's a link to my thread about this problem:
http://smashboards.com/threads/star-kos-screen-kos-problem-smash-4-wii-u-3ds.438251/

----------

Another thing I'd like to see improved for Patch 1.1.7 is the quality on those crowd chants, as well as the crowd chanting for that character 8 times like they did in the previous games. Some of the chants are almost impossible to understand what they're saying when that character is cheered at 100% damage or more, and hearing them chant for that character only 3 times is disappointing.

I know this may not be much, but if it's possible, please make it happen. Again, I'll be patient.

----------

Hopefully, I've made myself more clearer about this problem (and others). And hopefully, Nintendo will get the message too. As for the buffs and nerfs for certain characters as well as fixing others and adding certain options and features, I'm fine with whatever happens for Patch 1.1.7 as long as the biggest problem with the matches gets fixed.

You're really against this, huh? It's annoying, but I've seen you post this like a hundred times now. Lol

 

[William5000000]

You're really against this, huh? It's annoying, but I've seen you post this like a hundred times now. Lol

Someone's got to speak up about it. I'm just trying my best to make myself VERY clear about this problem. It's been there since the release of this game, and it's been long enough. I want everyone to be happy when this problem gets fixed.

 

[anas abou]

Mewtwo could use a shadow ball buff. Give him super armour during the startup frames (but only the frames before he moves his arms forward to start throwing the shadow ball), so it's less likely for him to be knocked out of the animation and lose it.

how about don't give mewtwo a buff at all, he's already good.

- Off-stage moves for every character force upward Blast KOs (Ness' PK Thunder 2, Jigglypuff's Rest, et cetera).
- On-stage moves (ground/air) for every character force Star KOs/Screen KOs (Jigglypuff's Rest, et cetera).

No unfair losses = everyone happy.

how do you even program that, there are no ingame values for being onstage or offstage.

We don't have to do this but it is just a suggestion. In separating the Pits further from each other, why not effect their grab game a bit? If Pit's Upperdash Arm sends straight up and Pittoo's Electroshock Arm sends at a diagonal angle, why not make:

have the more effective Forward Throw to kill with in compensation for a vertical Side B and
have the more effective Up Throw to kill with as a nice floaty slayer?

Neither character has to be altered a lot, but changing up their gameplay for how they work with grabs could certainly make players start to main one or the other in favor of how one uses throws. I, for one, trust floaty slayer Up Throws more but maybe some people would find that using a killing Forward Throw is better for edgeuarding purposes? Again, only a suggestion.

i'd like to see pit's f-throw stronger to kill earlier and give pitoo a better d-throw for combos (reduced endlag).

 

[Derpnaster]

I think what they really meant was in air or on ground.
Several moves (Link's DAir comes to mind here) have different effects depending on whether or not the target is in the air or on the ground, similarly Aerial moves detect only if the user in on the ground, as you can use them even if you just run off a platform and hit A. (It also leads to that Jank glitch where you can make Link do his grounded Spin Attack with the Aerial Spin Attack Animation)

 

[Swevester]

i'd like to see pit's f-throw stronger to kill earlier and give pitoo a better d-throw for combos (reduced endlag).

IMO what they can do with their Down Throw (and combos in general) is perfectly fine, they're just a little lacking on super solid kills moves and this would help separate the two further from each other. Killing two birds with one stone basically.

 

[anas abou]

IMO what they can do with their Down Throw (and combos in general) is perfectly fine, they're just a little lacking on super solid kills moves and this would help separate the two further from each other. Killing two birds with one stone basically.

if d-throw combos worked 15% later it would be a huge help, this is coming from a pit main.

 

[William5000000]

how do you even program that, there are no ingame values for being onstage or offstage.

Not entirely true. As I said, Patch 1.1.5 disabled Screen KOs on Training Mode. If it's possible to program off-stage moves to force upward Blast KOs and on-stage moves (ground/air) to force Star KOs/Screen KOs, then there's no reason why it can't happen.

 

[Derpnaster]

Not entirely true. As I said, Patch 1.1.5 disabled Screen KOs on Training Mode. If it's possible to program off-stage moves to force upward Blast KOs and on-stage moves (ground/air) to force Star KOs/Screen KOs, then there's no reason why it can't happen.

I think you're reading into that change a little too much. Having a mechanic disabled for a game mode is not the same as having it disabled conditionally per move, that requires a lot more calculation on the games part on top of the calculations already done in game
Simply put, we have no reason to believe right now that it is possible to do that kind of change without a blanket removal of the mechanic, at that point (and honestly the point you already wanted) we may as well just rewrite the entire smash 4 engine as we have to touch so many variables with just hitbox and damage editing alone. ADDING variables to code we are just starting to explore could have adverse effects at best, completely break the game at worst.,

 

[William5000000]

I think you're reading into that change a little too much. Having a mechanic disabled for a game mode is not the same as having it disabled conditionally per move, that requires a lot more calculation on the games part on top of the calculations already done in game
Simply put, we have no reason to believe right now that it is possible to do that kind of change without a blanket removal of the mechanic, at that point (and honestly the point you already wanted) we may as well just rewrite the entire smash 4 engine as we have to touch so many variables with just hitbox and damage editing alone. ADDING variables to code we are just starting to explore could have adverse effects at best, completely break the game at worst.,

Well, I understand that it may be tricky, but I certainly don't want the game to break.

 

[Derpnaster]

Tricky is an understatement, this is effectivly reverse engineering smash 4 at the source code level and then figuring out what works and what explodes.

 

[William5000000]

Tricky is an understatement, this is effectivly reverse engineering smash 4 at the source code level and then figuring out what works and what explodes.

Guess it requires much more patience then. So be it. I'll wait for a year or longer if that's what it's going to take. But you and everyone else should get my point on this problem.

 

[Derpnaster]

Guess it requires much more patience then. So be it. I'll wait for a year or longer if that's what it's going to take. But you and everyone else should get my point on this problem.

I honestly think star KOs aren't a problem, they are a part of Smash 4's core mechanics and we should not change them it'd be like us removing ledge trumping, it's a core aspect of the game and makes the game that much more complete, sure start and screen KO's seem random, and sure they may cause a little bit of salt. But honestly it's not our place nor is this the right kind of patch for that, removing a mechanic doesn't help anyone, and trying to change to be something it was never intended to be is beyond the scope of this patch.

To clear this up and put this issue to rest.
This was intended to be a character balancing patch, the kind of change you introduced and are vying for is not that. If you want to change the way top screen KO's are determined you are better off taking your ideas and complaints elsewhere.

 

[Swevester]

With all the star/screen KO stuff being said...

Anyone else notice that 's Up Smash hit trail sometimes goes through opponents? Even if it is one of the strongest Up Smashes, I can clearly see his foot going through someone and it just...doesn't connect. I still think he could use a good chunk of stuff (namely being that he and are the only heavyweights with no kill throw option, which as I've said before, urks me).

 

[Derpnaster]

With all the star/screen KO stuff being said...

Anyone else notice that 's Up Smash hit trail sometimes goes through opponents? Even if it is one of the strongest Up Smashes, I can clearly see his foot going through someone and it just...doesn't connect. I still think he could use a good chunk of stuff (namely being that he and are the only heavyweights with no kill throw option, which as I've said before, urks me).

Considering the Ganon Cannon is the literal worst character in the game I'd agree our favorite King of Evil should get some changes. I think a good kill throw is a nice idea for Dorf, though if anything I think it should be at best on part with Doc's kill throw.

I'm not sure DDD needs a kill throw because he has some nasty kill options and combo game that can be tweaked and made better.

Also yes we should look into the Up Smash, if that's a glitch we should fix it

 

[William5000000]

I honestly think star KOs aren't a problem, they are a part of Smash 4's core mechanics and we should not change them it'd be like us removing ledge trumping, it's a core aspect of the game and makes the game that much more complete, sure start and screen KO's seem random, and sure they may cause a little bit of salt. But honestly it's not our place nor is this the right kind of patch for that, removing a mechanic doesn't help anyone, and trying to change to be something it was never intended to be is beyond the scope of this patch.

To clear this up and put this issue to rest.
This was intended to be a character balancing patch, the kind of change you introduced and are vying for is not that. If you want to change the way top screen KO's are determined you are better off taking your ideas and complaints elsewhere.

Personally, I like Star KOs. Been getting those KOs for fun since "Smash 64".

As for Screen KOs, understood. They're a lot rarer anyway.

 

[anas abou]

Considering the Ganon Cannon is the literal worst character in the game I'd agree our favorite King of Evil should get some changes. I think a good kill throw is a nice idea for Dorf, though if anything I think it should be at best on part with Doc's kill throw.
I'm not sure DDD needs a kill throw because he has some nasty kill options and combo game that can be tweaked and made better.
Also yes we should look into the Up Smash, if that's a glitch we should fix it

i think f-throw and b-throw should be kill throws for both characters no need to give them HOO-HAAs, the ganon up-smash stuff is probably inaccurate hitboxes and not a glitch.

 

[Swevester]

Considering the Ganon Cannon is the literal worst character in the game I'd agree our favorite King of Evil should get some changes. I think a good kill throw is a nice idea for Dorf, though if anything I think it should be at best on part with Doc's kill throw.

I'm not sure DDD needs a kill throw because he has some nasty kill options and combo game that can be tweaked and made better.

Also yes we should look into the Up Smash, if that's a glitch we should fix it

I never suggested that Dedede get one, just him and Ganon were the only two at the top of the weight class that don't have one. I agree with anas abou and think it should be his Forward Throw. Not many F-Throws are usable at all, for good reasons (they'd be easy to abuse) but in this case, it's perfect because it isn't like Ganondorf has the grab range or speed to be grabbing all that often anyway (still having the worst grab range and all). I do however disagree about it being on par with Doc's B-Throw. Not that it should be Ness B-Throw strong, I just think there is plenty reason to make it slightly better than that. At the very least, it's amazing semi-spike angle can fix that, though. I also believe that Up Smash's whiffing is a case of inaccurate hitboxes that would be pretty simple to fix.

 

[FunAtParties]

The Cloud changes seem kind of... unnecessary. Like, does his jab NEED a buff? Does nair NEED to change at all? Why does Finishing Touch have intangibility? I think if I had to pick any one character to be blatantly ignored in a new patch, Cloud would be the one.

Is Diddy getting his Hoo-Ha back?

King Dedede changes get my hyped, same with Mewtwo, I don't know how good he'll end up after, but I wouldn't mind finding out.

What's the word on Puff? RDR7 had some interesting thoughts on what they'd like to see buffed on the Jiggs forum, maybe worth looking into. Personally I'd be down for straight up Brawl Puff, as long as we keep (or buff) 4's Rest.

 

[Daymaster]

I honestly think star KOs aren't a problem, they are a part of Smash 4's core mechanics and we should not change them it'd be like us removing ledge trumping, it's a core aspect of the game and makes the game that much more complete, sure start and screen KO's seem random, and sure they may cause a little bit of salt. But honestly it's not our place nor is this the right kind of patch for that, removing a mechanic doesn't help anyone, and trying to change to be something it was never intended to be is beyond the scope of this patch.

To clear this up and put this issue to rest.
This was intended to be a character balancing patch, the kind of change you introduced and are vying for is not that. If you want to change the way top screen KO's are determined you are better off taking your ideas and complaints elsewhere.

I understand why removing it would be an issue technically, but in a sense it's like tripping in Brawl, but not nearly as extreme. There is a random chance that your opponent could either have all the time in the world to punish with basicly anything, but they could also have been killed extremely early without any chance to counterattack. It's random, and randomness is bad for the meta. It is not like ledgetrumping, as ledgetrumping is not random and gives most characters an equal advantage, with the exception of those with the inability to recover without ledgetrumping

 

[Derpnaster]

I understand why removing it would be an issue technically, but in a sense it's like tripping in Brawl, but not nearly as extreme. There is a random chance that your opponent could either have all the time in the world to punish with basicly anything, but they could also have been killed extremely early without any chance to counterattack. It's random, and randomness is bad for the meta. It is not like ledgetrumping, as ledgetrumping is not random and gives most characters an equal advantage, with the exception of those with the inability to recover without ledgetrumping

With all due respect I do not think a Star KO is as random as we think, in the heat of battle a star KO may seem random, but that may be more to due with the speed at which things happen. In code nothing is truly random. it is physically impossible to randomly generate a value from null. The code needs a base to work from, and that base often also has modifiers.

in this case we can then think of getting a Star KO as a game of Blackjack, the goal is to get to 21 or lower, if we get higher than 21 we get launched. The difference is in this game we have many other modifiers to our end value.
In terms of Smash 4 the most well known is weight.
Jiggs is perhaps the easiest character to force a Star KO on. she as a weight value of around 68 or 69, the lightest in the game.
With our theoretical game we can say that having a low weight, say for every 10 points below value 100 is a -2 so Puff would be around a -6 already.
Then you factor in percentage, which as you already said it tends to be an early thing. so lets say if the value of percent is below 100 but above 20 we can add in another -6. So a Puff at say 42% is a theoretical -12 to get star KO'd.

Finally we add in the actual PRNG, which should have a set range lets say. arbitrarily between 0 and 0.80 and we have a conditional statement saying if value is 0.69 add -10. Then take all the values and flip the sign so we aren't negative and you end up with a total value of 22, one higher than our arbitrary value to not get sent into the background.

The end result is we still have more control of if we get star KO'd than we realize. Now obviously that scenario is not how the game actually works, we perhaps may never actually figure that out. My point is, nothing in this game is truly random, not even G&W's hammer of destiny is truly random.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Get back to me after you find a GnW player that can roll nines with any kind of consistency.

 

[anas abou]

Get back to me after you find a GnW player that can roll nines with any kind of consistency.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjGNqR0T4rQ
lol just kidding, speedrun style RNG manipulation is nearly impossible in a fightning game.

 

[Frihetsanka]

The Cloud changes seem kind of... unnecessary. Like, does his jab NEED a buff? Does nair NEED to change at all? Why does Finishing Touch have intangibility? I think if I had to pick any one character to be blatantly ignored in a new patch, Cloud would be the one.

Is Diddy getting his Hoo-Ha back?

King Dedede changes get my hyped, same with Mewtwo, I don't know how good he'll end up after, but I wouldn't mind finding out.

What's the word on Puff? RDR7 had some interesting thoughts on what they'd like to see buffed on the Jiggs forum, maybe worth looking into. Personally I'd be down for straight up Brawl Puff, as long as we keep (or buff) 4's Rest.

A lot of the changes in the OP are early stage and have since then been changed, from what I've gathered. It is likely they underestimated Cloud, Diddy Kong, and Mewtwo, so those characters might not get buffed (or not as much). With that being said, I suppose it doesn't hurt constructively analysing and criticising the data we do have.

 

[anas abou]

A lot of the changes in the OP are early stage and have since then been changed, from what I've gathered. It is likely they underestimated Cloud, Diddy Kong, and Mewtwo, so those characters might not get buffed (or not as much). With that being said, I suppose it doesn't hurt constructively analysing and criticising the data we do have.

OP should be updated immediately, so much confusion.

 

[Combo Wombo]

Something I don't think I saw anyone mention was puff's knockback. I say reduce knockback for fair and nair, as well as a change in knockback growth for her dthrow. Maybe increase knockback for bair. This would give her a combo game and a solid kill move. It may be too much, but decreased endlag on fair and nair would make them safe on shield.

 

[FunAtParties]

Something I don't think I saw anyone mention was puff's knockback. I say reduce knockback for fair and nair, as well as a change in knockback growth for her dthrow. Maybe increase knockback for bair. This would give her a combo game and a solid kill move. It may be too much, but decreased endlag on fair and nair would make them safe on shield.

I think dair and nair are fine how they are personally.
Fair should have less bkb and more kbg in my opinion, and bair should have more bkb, less kbg, slightly faster start up, earlier faf, slightly more range, and 1 or 2 more active frames.
All that being said, the least of Jigglypuff's problems is her aerials.

 

[Combo Wombo]

I think dair and nair are fine how they are personally.
Fair should have less bkb and more kbg in my opinion, and bair should have more bkb, less kbg, slightly faster start up, earlier faf, slightly more range, and 1 or 2 more active frames.
All that being said, the least of Jigglypuff's problems is her aerials.

The problem is they have no combo potential. The best you can do is get a string of fairs and nairs by reading fast falling, jumping, air dodging, attacking and possibly a command grab. The least that could be done is give her a good combo game since she's weak on the ground and is ver punishable out of shield. Maybe no kill combos and definitely no 0-death combos but having combos such as nair>fair>dair and a possible nair to repeat the combo. Just an idea but what makes mewtwo so strong and Jiggs so weak is mewtwo has enough power and kill potential to back
Up being light. Jiggs has no combo game, ridiculously slow smash attacks and is generally terrible on the ground.

 

[FunAtParties]

The problem is they have no combo potential. The best you can do is get a string of fairs and nairs by reading fast falling, jumping, air dodging, attacking and possibly a command grab. The least that could be done is give her a good combo game since she's weak on the ground and is ver punishable out of shield. Maybe no kill combos and definitely no 0-death combos but having combos such as nair>fair>dair and a possible nair to repeat the combo. Just an idea but what makes mewtwo so strong and Jiggs so weak is mewtwo has enough power and kill potential to back
Up being light. Jiggs has no combo game, ridiculously slow smash attacks and is generally terrible on the ground.

Her dair is great for combos. Uair too, but harder to land (fastfall up air into rest is true at certain percent). You can literally combo any of her aerials into Rest at certain percents.

Like I said, Jiggly can use a lot of improvements, but the least of my concerns as a Jigglypuff main, is her aerials. I'd rather see a slight air speed buff, Rest to 25%, her f-throw to have much better kbg, and Rollout buffed to be more like Brawl's.

 

[Halcy0n]

So what changes would you give Robin?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

So what changes would you give Robin?

I'd probably say that the tome recharge time should be decreased a bit for Robin's tomes; 8 seconds for Thunder and Arcfire; 4 seconds for Elwind; 30 seconds for Nosferatu.

 

[Baker_]

Does DDD really need all that?
I know that he is low tier and I agree with many of these proposed buffs,

safer jab, YES
faster gordo toss for better ping pong, YES
a down B that can actually do something, YES
D tilt not whiffing, YES
faster all around, sure

Less kbg on the down throw though? His throw combo game was already pretty good and coupled with an already powerful but now buffed up air it seems kind of insane.

Also his F and B throws already got the opponent offstage early enough, and killed semi-decently at the edges.

His grab range was already better than most of the cast, I don't see why you'd buff it. Is it to make jab>jab>grab connect more often?


Something I would like to see included would be having the gordos stick to the edges every single time they hit. In the current state it's 50/50 so even with the same inputs. https://youtu.be/XHYJKgD_TxQ?t=1m16s

Finding how to do that might be tricky, as explained they haven't been able to find where the stick happens, but it would be a huge benefit to the gordo's utility

 

[Combo Wombo]

What about my man Falco?

 

[iiJjRr]

Disclaimer: I did not make this mod at all.



Get Waluigi here

http://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/4800


See it in action

Features:

-added in csp
-alternate costumes


Note:


Some of the moves has Captain Falcon's Up Air and Wii Fit Trainer's Neutral Air



Bugs And Glitches:

THERE IS ONE ANIMATION BUG WITH HIS SHIELD IT DOESN'T AFFECT GAME PLAY AND IT WORKS JUST FINE BUT WE ARE LOOKING INTO A WAY TO FIX IT.



Have fun!

 

[ExiaPilotDedede]

Does DDD really need all that?
I know that he is low tier and I agree with many of these proposed buffs,

safer jab, YES
faster gordo toss for better ping pong, YES
a down B that can actually do something, YES
D tilt not whiffing, YES
faster all around, sure

Less kbg on the down throw though? His throw combo game was already pretty good and coupled with an already powerful but now buffed up air it seems kind of insane.

Also his F and B throws already got the opponent offstage early enough, and killed semi-decently at the edges.

His grab range was already better than most of the cast, I don't see why you'd buff it. Is it to make jab>jab>grab connect more often?


Something I would like to see included would be having the gordos stick to the edges every single time they hit. In the current state it's 50/50 so even with the same inputs. https://youtu.be/XHYJKgD_TxQ?t=1m16s

Finding how to do that might be tricky, as explained they haven't been able to find where the stick happens, but it would be a huge benefit to the gordo's utility

Yes, also raise the gordo reflect %.

Edit:


- Revert DThrow knockback so it doesn't combo as well. Although I would love a kill confirm from a grab, I just don't think that's Dedede's style.
Down Throw:

• Throw BKB: 70 -> 60
• Throw KBG: 82 -> 65

- Reduce mobility:

• Air Mobility: 0.72 -> 0.70
• Walk Max Velocity: 1.08 -> 1.01
• Initial Run Velocity: 1.46 -> 1.36

- Increase the gordo reflect from 1% to 3%. You can check out the Dedede discussion boards for more justification on this, but essentially it boils down to the opponent should have to commit to a reflect, shield or dodge just like any projectile instead of just spamming a jab and getting the reflect. I honestly think it should be 6%, but non Dedede player's might complain that it's broken (It's not, you'll just have to shield or dodge the gordo instead of reflecting it, just like every other projectile, but also if you get the reflect, the gordo locks onto Dedede). Maybe try out 6% and then either tone it back or increase something like the reflect speed to keep it balanced.

- Increase shield damage to the crash down sweet spot of Super Dedede jump. This move can currently just be shielded and punished.

- Decrease the ending lag when Dedede swallows a projectile or give him health back for eating it.

- Remove the hit stun when someone is mashing after being swallowed by inhale. If you mash fast enough, not only do you get out, but Dedede cannot do the spit or move. Make this more like a grab, if the opponent mashes when grabbed, it doesn't prevent you from throwing or pummeling, it just reduces the amount of time you have to follow up with those actions.

My wish list that that isn't as realistic as the above, but I would love to see:
1. Up-B should break shields on the sweet spot crash down like bowser's Down-B (There is a hitbox that buries, make it break shields instead).
2. F-Air should spike on the tip of the hammer like Cloud's FAir.
3. Cut down the D-Air start up and ending lag and make the entire hammer spike, similar to Gannon's DAir.
4. Give jet hammer the ability to short hop.
5. Give jet hammer heavy armor when fully charged.
6. Decrease the end lag on a canceled UpB.

Here's something to keep in mind with future changes to Dedede:
Don't make him rely on grabs. He has tons of different, unique, and fun tools, let his play style revolve around those tools and using them properly. Also, his main kill strategy is reads, punishes and edge guarding so try to stay in the realm of that.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Something I don't think I saw anyone mention was puff's knockback. I say reduce knockback for fair and nair, as well as a change in knockback growth for her dthrow. Maybe increase knockback for bair. This would give her a combo game and a solid kill move. It may be too much, but decreased endlag on fair and nair would make them safe on shield.

Jigglypuff's neutral air is one of her only reliable KO options. She can't afford to lose that, and back air is disgustingly strong already. If you buff that, she might have a mini-Falcon Punch. What her aerials need are better frame data. Less ending lag on forward air, less startup on up air and back air, and much less landing lag on down air.

 

[anas abou]

What about my man Falco?

this is what i feel is all falco needs :

• weight : 82 > 94.
• running speed : 1.472 > 1.55.
• air speed : 0.93 > 1.
• laser : travels faster, FAF 59 > 46

this thread is kinda dead for some reason.

 

[JustAnotherSaltyPaluMain]

• running speed : 1.472 > 15.5.

Did you mean... 1.55?