Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[anas abou]

one character who could start to use some love right about now is . I don't recall mentioning her very often in this thread...

please don't don't give her throws/u-air to rest, i don't want this to be melee all over again, and making her floatier would only serve to make her more susceptible to vertical KOs.
this is what she really needs according to highly requested changes from the puff boards :

Air speed : 1.269 (lul) > 1.3
Jab 1 : frame 5 > 3, FAF 17 > 15.
Jab 2 : damege 3 > 6, FAF 20 > 18.
Dash attack : damage 12 > 13, BKB 16 > 20.
Dash attack (late) : damage 8 > 10, BKB 8 > 10.
F-tilt : frame 7 > 5, FAF 28 > 25.
U-tilt : frame 9 > 6, FAF 24 > 20.
D-tilt : frame 10 > 6, FAF 31 > 26.
U-smash : give head Intangiblity for all active frame (like mario).
Grab : range increased.
F-throw : damage 5 > 6, KBG 30 > 60 (now has kill potential).
B-throw : BKB 90 > 100, KBG 25 > 30 (mostly positioning / setting up edgeguards).
N-air : damage 11 > 13, landing lag 15 > 10
N-air (late) : damage 6 > 8.
F-air : better range, damage 9 > 10, landing lag 15 > 10.
B-air : better range, landing lage 18 > 12.
U-air : damage 9 > 10, KBG 100 > 130.
Pound : shield damage increased.
Rest : KBG 66 > 80, always star KOs.

Of the five or so in high/top tier I'd only say that Mario has a truly reliable projectile. The others have either situational, or in the case of Blade Beam (And yes I am prepared for the maelstrom of hate I will get for what I'm about to say) almost entirely pointless. Blade Beam's one saving grace is that it has a Limit Break Version. Otherwise it is at best an annoyance at worst it can even save a recovering target because it's knockback is just that bad

needles are much better than mario's fireball due to frame data and kill confirms.

 

[Swevester]

I've mentioned buffing her Up Air to have better startup and altering her active hitboxes on the attack after them to be a good anti-air. Thus, it wouldn't lead to ridiculous Rest combos that turn her into Melee Hbox, but also make the move not worthless.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

In regards to Jigglypuff's air speed, on my end I raised it to 1.35 (its Melee air speed value), since it just feels weird to see Jigglypuff move slower in the air than Yoshi. One may argue that that value is too fast, but considering that Jigglypuff's up special is not a recovery move, it needs to be as conservative with the mid-air jumps as it can.

 

[Swevester]

In regards to Jigglypuff's air speed, on my end I raised it to 1.35 (its Melee air speed value), since it just feels weird to see Jigglypuff move slower in the air than Yoshi. One may argue that that value is too fast, but considering that Jigglypuff's up special is not a recovery move, it needs to be as conservative with the mid-air jumps as it can.

How did I forget about this? 100% agreed. How a dinosaur trumps a balloon in air speed is beyond me. Although when you consider that it's a large portion of how she was able to do her Melee Wall of Pain, it makes me wonder if that'll come back or be just as insane...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

How did I forget about this? 100% agreed. How a dinosaur trumps a balloon in air speed is beyond me. Although when you consider that it's a large portion of how she was able to do her Melee Wall of Pain, it makes me wonder if that'll come back or be just as insane...

Fighters fell at faster speeds in Melee though. In Smash 3DS / Wii U, Fox is the fastest faller (excluding Final Smash fighters), but his falling speed is actually lower than that of Melee Sheik; 2.05 vs. 2.13.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Even the strongest edgeguarders in Smash 4 rarely get gimps, so Jigglypuff shouldn't be a problem with reasonable buffs.

 

[Swevester]

Fighters fell at faster speeds in Melee though. In Smash 3DS / Wii U, Fox is the fastest faller (excluding Final Smash fighters), but his falling speed is actually lower than that of Melee Sheik; 2.05 vs. 2.13.

Also considering her Back Air isn't quite the same as it was in Melee. Her F-Air might be the new wall of pain, though. This is something I'm iffy about, because I've seen it come pretty close to successfully shoving someone offscreen. I've always thought her biggest problem was her gimmicky, under-impressive approach options so hopefully this fixes that, though.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Oh, and speaking of, can KingJigglypuff report back on this thread with progress?

 

[anas abou]

i wanted to buff the puff, then i remebered how stupid she is in melee and lost all hope , can we make her not that good pls.

 

[Swevester]

Oh, and speaking of, can KingJigglypuff report back on this thread with progress?

He hasn't updated the main page in quite a while...hmm...

i wanted to buff the puff, then i remebered how stupid she is in melee and lost all hope , can we make her not that good pls.

this Jigglypuff, as long as she doesn't receive a few select things, will never ever return to . Unfortunately, that makes balancing her pretty difficult.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

Oh, and speaking of, can KingJigglypuff report back on this thread with progress?

Nothing new yet, but I will update if/when I have something ne

 

[Derpnaster]

needles are much better than mario's fireball due to frame data and kill confirms.

Last response to this then I'm moving on to puff, though I agree we need more Puff Mains here.

Having a kill confirm or better frame data does not always make a better projectile. A solid Projectile in terms of Smash 4 is one that can be used in many situations. Mario has in that sense a projectile that better by a wide margine. Sure he can't get some fancy (And pointless I might add Needles to Fish kinda sucks) kill confirm off his fireballs, but he can camp with them, approach with them, space with them, gimp with them, and gain stage control with them. Essentailly Mario has in fireball a projectile he can RELY upon, and that is the key to having a good projectile. A short definition would be as follows.

A good Projectile is one with some usefulness, a GREAT projectile is one you can rely on.

Needles have camping, gimping and a kill confirm. MAYBE a disruptive roll but every projectile has that as well.

As to puff. her airspeed might be a good thing to raise, but don't touch her grounded moves unless we intend them to be used as setups for her air moves or as "get off me" moves.

 

[JustAnotherSaltyPaluMain]

Palutena

Spoiler

• Air Speed: 0.91 -> 0.975
• Jab:
  • Startup: Frame 7 -> Frame 6
  • FAF: Frame 26 -> Frame 23
• Dash Attack
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 6 - 17 -> Frame 6 - 19
  • Damage: 9 -> 10
  • KBG: 90 -> 100
  • Lingering Hit Damage: 5 -> 6
  • Lingering Hit KBG: 70 -> 80
  • FAF: Frame 52 -> Frame 42
• Side Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 17 -> Frame 11
  • Attack duration sped up by 30%
  • Hit 1 Damage: 6/4 -> 5
  • Hit 1 BKB: 43 -> 0
  • Hit 1 WKB: 0 -> 75
  • Hit 1 KBG: 65 -> 100
  • Hit 2 Damage: 6/4 -> 7/5
  • Hit 2 BKB: 43 -> 53
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 55
• Up Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 10 -> Frame 8
  • Multihit Rehit Rate: 5 Frames -> 4 Frames
  • Endlag reduced by 10%.
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> 58
• Down Tilt:
  • Air only hitbox removed.
  • Ground only hitbox edited to hit aerial foes.
  • Startup: Frame 14 -> Frame 10
  • Hitbox size increased by 1 unit and lowered by 0.5 units.
  • Angle: 361 -> 60
  • BKB: 38 -> 40
• Side Smash:
  • Damage: 16/13/0 -> 17/14/0
  • All hitbox sizes increased and moved forward by 2 units.
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 58
• Up Smash:
  • Startup: Frame 18 -> Frame 13
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 58
• Down Smash:
  • Damage: 15/13/0 -> 16/14/0
  • Angle: 60/28 -> 28
  • Windbox WKB: 32 -> 40
  • Windbox sizes increased by 4 units
  • FAF: Frame 72 -> Frame 62
• Neutral Air:
  • Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 3.
  • Landing Lag: 20 Frames -> 15 Frames
  • Final Hit BKB: 30 -> 40
  • Final Hit KBG: 180 -> 190
• Back Air:
  • Damage: 12/9 -> 13/10
• Up Air:
  • Landing Lag: 22 Frames -> 12 Frames
• Down Air:
  • FAF: Frame 59 -> Frame 49
• Back Throw:
  • Angle: 361 -> 51
  • KBG: 70 -> 100
• Up Throw:
  • Damage: 8 -> 10
  • KBG: 60 -> 80
• Down Throw:
  • Damage: 5 -> 6
• Autoreticle:
  • Searching hitbox increased by 25 units.
  • Projectile BKB: 20 -> 40
  • Projectile KBG: 42 -> 50
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 54
• Reflect Barrier:
  • Startup: Frame 8 -> Frame 7
  • BKB: 10 -> 30
  • Barrier WKB: 35 -> 50
  • FAF: Frame 56 -> Frame 40
• Warp:
  • Intangibility Frames: Frame 16 - 31 -> Frame 11 - 36
• Counter:
  • Counter Duration: Frame 10 - 32 -> Frame 7 - 32
  • Counter FAF: Frame 75 -> Frame 55
  • Counter Attack Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 3
  • Counter Attack Sourspot edited to match sweetspot
  • Counter Attack Sweetspot BKB: 40 -> 45
  • Counter Attack Sweetspot KBG: 75 -> 80
  • Counter Attack FAF: Frame 56 -> Frame 36

KingJigglypuff : Despite how amazing these changes seem, I have lots of changes we could give to the current changes to make her more balanced so that they don't seem like a fanboy suggested them:

• Weight: 91 > 94
• Falling Speed: 1.4 > 1.45
• Gravity: 0.105 > 0.09
• Air Speed: 0.975 > 1

• Jab:
  • Hit 1 BKB/KBG: 30/60 > 35/48

• Dash Attack
  • Damage: 10 > 11
  • BKB/KBG: 70/100 > 60/95

• Side Tilt:
  • Hit 2 Damage: 7/5 > 7

• Down Tilt:
  • Damage: 8.5 > 9
  • Angle: 60 > 35

• Side Smash:
  • Hitbox duration: Frame 18-19 > 18-20
  • Windbox duration: Frame 20-31 > 21-31

• Up Smash:
  • Damage: 16/12/9 > 17/14/10
  • KBG: 84/85/87 > 77/79/87

• Down Smash:
  • Damage: 16/14/0 > 17/14/0
  • Clean BKB/KBG: 40/103 > 30/90
  • All hitbox sizes increased and moved away from Palutena by 2 units.

• Neutral Air:
  • Final Hit KBG: 190 > 140

• Forward Air:
  
  • Startup: Frame 9 > 6
  • Angle: 45 > 50
  • FAF: Frame 45 > 39

• Back Air:
  • Sweetspot BKB/KBG: 30/92 > 36/98
  • Landing lag: 16 > 15 frames
  • FAF: Frame 50 > 40
  • Autocancel frame: Frame 35 > 30

• Up Air:
  • Loop hits damage: 1 > 1.5
  • Landing lag: 12 > 18 frames
  • Autocancel frame: Frame 64 > 44

• Down Air:
  • Hitbox duration: Frame 10 > Frames 9-11
  • FAF: Frame 49 > 45
  • Autocancel frame: Frame 49 > 37

• Back Throw:
  • Damage: 10 > 12
  • Angle: 51 > 43
  • BKB/KBG: 65/100 > 70/65

• Up Throw:
  • Damage: 10 > 9
  • BKB/KBG: 90/80 > 85/70

• Down Throw:
  • BKB: 90 > 76
  • Angle: 70 > 73
  • 3 less frames of ending lag, whatever its ending lag might be

• Autoreticle:
  • Searching hitbox duration: Frame 8 > Frames 7-9
  • Projectile damage: 2.9 > 3
  • Projectile BKB/KBG: 40/50 > 0/100
  • Projectile WBK: 0 > 15

• Counter:
  • Counter duration: Frame 7-32 > 6-31
  • Counter FAF: Frame 55 > Frame 60
  • Counterattack startup: Frame 3 > 5
  • Counterattack BKB/KBG: 45/80 > 65/85

Explanations of why each change:

1. Changes to her attributes make her more resilient, one of her main weaknesses is how frail she is.
2. Jab changes allow it to have more reliable followups into an smash or a grab against a fast-falling opponent.
   
3. Knockback changes to dash attack allow it to KO as easy as in 1.1.6, because if dash attack was to have 100 of knockback scaling, it would KO as early as Link post 1.1.5 ಠ_ಠ
4. Forward tilt must lose its sourspot.
5. Down tilt changes give her a more effective ledgeguarding tool.
6. Less ending lag on side and down smashes because the windboxes can still be shielded.
7. Side smash would be more reliable.
8. Up smash's tip is stronger as a result.
9. If there were no knockback changes to down smash, it would be stronger than side smash.
10. Various changes to her aerials make them better at comboing. Something they lack already is reliable combo potential into the other, and higher knockback on neutral air for example just worsens it further.
11. Increased landing lag on up air to balance out its better autocancel window.
12. Down aerial actually needs much less ending lag and a better autocancel window.
13. Various changes to powerful throws to balance out their power.
14. Balanced out down throw's higher damage with less base knockback, as well as making it a much more reliable combo throw.
15. Autoreticle's changes enable it to jab lock again, a property the move lost.
16. Counter's changes make it more in-line to the cast's counterattacks, and allow it to KO as early as Ike's Counter while being as safe as Marth's.

These changes would apply to Palu's current changelog on the first message posted by OP. Requesting these changes to be revised...

 

[anas abou]

Having a kill confirm or better frame data does not always make a better projectile. A solid Projectile in terms of Smash 4 is one that can be used in many situations. Mario has in that sense a projectile that better by a wide margine. Sure he can't get some fancy (And pointless I might add Needles to Fish kinda sucks) kill confirm off his fireballs, but he can camp with them, approach with them, space with them, gimp with them, and gain stage control with them. Essentailly Mario has in fireball a projectile he can RELY upon, and that is the key to having a good projectile. A short definition would be as follows.

A good Projectile is one with some usefulness, a GREAT projectile is one you can rely on.

Needles have camping, gimping and a kill confirm. MAYBE a disruptive roll but every projectile has that as well.

i don't know how to put this nicely, but if you honestly think this, you're not knowledgeable about the game, clean and simple, sorry for being blunt about it.

needles travel instantly across, come out really fast, are completely unpunishable even at mid range, chips away at shields when charged, and needles to bouncing fish is one of sheiks most reliable kill options, all this without considering how much tech needles have.

meanwhile fireballs are mediocre projectiles, they come out slow, have tons of endlag leaving you open, do little damage, really easy to powershield everytime, yeah you can B reverse and C bounce with it for safety/mixups, but you can do that with most projectiles, and also they are not safe for approching, and few true "kill confirms" off of fireballs, wonderful prejectile.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

JustAnotherSaltyPaluMain : You do realize that 0.9 is a very massive gravity increase, right? Even Giga Bowser's gravity value (0.198) doesn't go THAT high.

 

[JustAnotherSaltyPaluMain]

JustAnotherSaltyPaluMain : You do realize that 0.9 is a very massive gravity increase, right? Even Giga Bowser's gravity value (0.198) doesn't go THAT high.

My B. It was actually 0.09 xD

EDIT: Fixed.

 

[Swevester]

KingJigglypuff :

• Up Air:
  • Landing lag: 12 > 18 frames
  • Autocancel frame: Frame 64 > 39

Everything you said is just fine, but I'm a little iffy about this change. I get the compensation but honestly her Up Air is one of the few moves that needs nothing done to it. It's meant to be a good combo finisher and is arguably her best move for KOing. I say at the very least, knock it's autocancel window to something not stupid (like 52 exactly) and keep the landing lag the way it is.

 

[ElectroLightning]

Can we make the Up Throw to Rest only land on Fox?

 

[anas abou]

Can we make the Up Throw to Rest only land on Fox?

can we not make up-throw rest a thing please, just saying that gives me melee PTSD.

 

[Derpnaster]

can we not make up-throw rest a thing please, just saying that gives me melee PTSD.

It'd actually be kinda funny on Fox due to that being more or less a blast from the past.

 

[anas abou]

It'd actually be kinda funny on Fox due to that being more or less a blast from the past.

a blast from evo 2016 grand finals.

 

[RedMarf78]

Can we make the Up Throw to Rest only land on Fox?

You literally couldn't make up throw rest rest work on just fox unless you made him have physics different than the rest of the cast (or made his weight like 200 or fall speed 4.0 or something stupid like that). Up throw rest is ridiculously stupid but I play melee just to do it, it makes me feel mad with power.

 

[Swevester]

Can we make the Up Throw to Rest only land on Fox?

Guys, I'm like 99.9% sure he was kidding. Lol.

Anyways, a few thoughts on :

Increase Forward Throw's KBG to be a good kill move, maybe around 140%.

Up Throw could be altered to have the ability to true combo into Dark Dive at low percents. Idk I just want a combo into Dark Dive. Is that so wrong?

 

[Daymaster]

Jab changes allow it to always have reliable followups into an smash or a grab at almost any percent against almost any opponent

The ability to follow up into a grab is one that everyone with a fast jab should have, but if the attack is doing so much hitstun that it can even be reliably mixed up into a Smash there is an issue.

 

[Derpnaster]

The ability to follow up into a grab is one that everyone with a fast jab should have, but if the attack is doing so much hitstun that it can even be reliably mixed up into a Smash there is an issue.

That does also depend on the character and the smash. But generally a Jab Cancel comboing into a smash should not happen outside of a read or doubles.

 

[JustAnotherSaltyPaluMain]

That does also depend on the character and the smash. But generally a Jab Cancel comboing into a smash should not happen outside of a read or doubles.

Alright. I can change that too. Then making jab have higher base knockback and less knockback scaling, and not having set knockback like I intended?

 

[Derpnaster]

I actually think Palu's Jab is fine as it is in vanilla, just throw in some slightly better end lag.

Also I do have a question, why do you have so many changes that are reducing both base knockback and knockback growth?
Are you trying to make Palu into a combo character or are you trying to compensate for the moves you feel are now too safe to warrant having high damage and knockback?

I only ask because if you want a character to combo you also have to think about the angle hits launch at. Palu might not have very good combo angles and at best could start to rely upon bad DI or at worst just got a massive nerf to her kill power.

Of course I'm not a Palu main and know less about her than you do so I only have basic knowledge at best to work with here.

 

[JustAnotherSaltyPaluMain]

I actually think Palu's Jab is fine as it is in vanilla, just throw in some slightly better end lag.

Also I do have a question, why do you have so many changes that are reducing both base knockback and knockback growth?
Are you trying to make Palu into a combo character or are you trying to compensate for the moves you feel are now too safe to warrant having high damage and knockback?

I only ask because if you want a character to combo you also have to think about the angle hits launch at. Palu might not have very good combo angles and at best could start to rely upon bad DI or at worst just got a massive nerf to her kill power.

Of course I'm not a Palu main and know less about her than you do so I only have basic knowledge at best to work with here.

It is actually a combo of both. I wanted her moves to have more combo ability. Since no one likes customs, I wanted to reduce the power on some of her moves to give her somewhat more versatile combo ability, and yes, I am thinking about every possibility and angle, which leaves them at just the right angle to combo. Also, her KO moves are still very laggy, so nerfing her KO power is not the best idea, which also includes knowing your aerials might be stale to KO; the latter is something Palu mains do everyday. I play her competitively so yeah.

 

[Derpnaster]

So a fun fact about smash 4 and Stale Move Negation.(Move Staling)

knockback which is where a moves KO power comes from is hardly affected. The hardest hit aspect of a move in smash 4 is damage.

It's why characters like mario can't get away with endless chains of Up Tilts, the knockback grows faster than it is cut

 

[Swevester]

So a fun fact about smash 4 and Stale Move Negation.(Move Staling)

knockback which is where a moves KO power comes from is hardly affected. The hardest hit aspect of a move in smash 4 is damage.

It's why characters like mario can't get away with endless chains of Up Tilts, the knockback grows faster than it is cut

If knockback was effected in a negative way, characters like Sheik and their Forward Tilt would rule this game. I was fairly certain stale moves also effected hitstun, just not in a very drastic way...

 

[MarioMeteor]

Some people have mentioned about buffing Rest, but that doesn't change the fact that you need to get lucky with the random Star KOs. If a Star KO doesn't happen, you're pretty much wide open for a revenge strike.

Truthfully, there's not too much that can be done to help Jigglypuff, outside of improving the strength of some of its attacks, along with an air speed increase, and even reducing the landing lag whenever the d-air gets used.

I would've also said a weight increase, but Jigglypuff should not got higher than 70 for its weight value.

Improving the strength of her attacks and better frame data are all she needs. Her two main weaknesses are her lack of reliable KO options (despite being a so-called "glass cannon") and her struggle against shields. Fix those two things and give her a good combo starter and just like that, Jigglypuff is good.

 

[Swevester]

Improving the strength of her attacks and better frame data are all she needs. Her two main weaknesses are her lack of reliable KO options (despite being a so-called "glass cannon") and her struggle against shields. Fix those two things and give her a good combo starter and just like that, Jigglypuff is good.

Is one of 's weaknesses really a struggle with shields? Even though Pound is like her saving grace? Wow...that's bad.

 

[JustAnotherSaltyPaluMain]

Is one of 's weaknesses really a struggle with shields? Even though Pound is like her saving grace? Wow...that's bad.

It is. Very few of Puff's attacks are safe on shield other than back air.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Is one of 's weaknesses really a struggle with shields? Even though Pound is like her saving grace? Wow...that's bad.

Yeah believe it or not, fighters can actually shield-grab Jigglypuff after blocking Pound. Pound Blitz is more difficult to shield-grab, however, due to delivering more hits.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Is one of 's weaknesses really a struggle with shields? Even though Pound is like her saving grace? Wow...that's bad.

Yes. Neutral air and back air are her only safe moves unless you have spacing of the gods. The problem with Pound is that it only breaks shields that are already damaged. It will only reduce a full shield to a small one, but, in a very dumb and ironic twist, Pound is actually not safe on shield, and you can get punished for it. A while ago I made a list of Puff buffs and I suggested that Pound have seven frames less ending lag for that reason.

 

[Swevester]

It is. Very few of Puff's attacks are safe on shield other than back air.

Yeah believe it or not, fighters can actually shield-grab Jigglypuff after blocking Pound. Pound Blitz is more difficult to shield-grab, however, due to delivering more hits.

Yes. Neutral air and back air are her only safe moves unless you have spacing of the gods. The problem with Pound is that it only breaks shields that are already damaged. It will only reduce a full shield to a small one, but, in a very dumb and ironic twist, Pound is actually not safe on shield, and you can get punished for it. A while ago I made a list of Puff buffs and I suggested that Pound have seven frames less ending lag for that reason.

Whoa, shows where my place is for not knowing Puff very well...I've always thought her biggest, most glaring issue was the fact that that she makes 's approach game look like 's.

 

[Daymaster]

On the posts about Staleness above: Staleness effects damage, which in turn effects part of the knockback formula and thus hitstun. There are four major elements in the KB formula, being BKB, KBG, move damage and opponent's percent (and trace amounts of 3+ other variables). These each have roughly the same impact on knockback, meaning the damage a move does is vital. The more damage a move does the more stale moves are the more stale moves effect them, thus potentially drastically effecting knockback and hitstun as a result. The reason why characters with kill confirms at specific percent ranges off tilts and such don't destroy everyone is mainly due to the fact that they often do so little damage that they are barely affected by stalenes.

 

[Tocaraca2]

Mewtwo could use a shadow ball buff. Give him super armour during the startup frames (but only the frames before he moves his arms forward to start throwing the shadow ball), so it's less likely for him to be knocked out of the animation and lose it.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Mewtwo could use a shadow ball buff. Give him super armour during the startup frames (but only the frames before he moves his arms forward to start throwing the shadow ball), so it's less likely for him to be knocked out of the animation and lose it.

...you're serious? If you keep getting hit out of footsie-range shadow balls, you're using them wrong.

 

[Swevester]

We don't have to do this but it is just a suggestion. In separating the Pits further from each other, why not effect their grab game a bit? If Pit's Upperdash Arm sends straight up and Pittoo's Electroshock Arm sends at a diagonal angle, why not make:

have the more effective Forward Throw to kill with in compensation for a vertical Side B and
have the more effective Up Throw to kill with as a nice floaty slayer?

Neither character has to be altered a lot, but changing up their gameplay for how they work with grabs could certainly make players start to main one or the other in favor of how one uses throws. I, for one, trust floaty slayer Up Throws more but maybe some people would find that using a killing Forward Throw is better for edgeuarding purposes? Again, only a suggestion.