Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[Swevester]

I think Link suffers from weird quirks in his character. Take forward smash. You can shield the second hit sometimes. I think the lag on his moves is much more detrimental to his play style, making him an unintentional "high risk, moderate reward" character. The most damaging quality Link has is his projectile lag, and a lack of combos. It seems as if they had his projectiles simply to pay homage to his original games.

Link, in my opinion, is just a bad character. Except for up smash. Besides its terrible lag, its priority and anti-air qualities overweigh its weaknesses.



On a separate topic and for the purpose to not double-post, let's talk about Lucas. I main Lucas/Ness. Both are phenomenal characters. However, I feel like Lucas definitely needs a buff on his PK Fire. I think it has too much lag. I find it much less safe than Ness's variant. Perhaps we could nerf the power from his forward throw to balance? I don't know.

Link is mostly designed to fight like he does in Zelda: wait for the opening, use your equipment and nail that weak spot. However, you bring up a point I forgot to tackle...non-tipped Forward Smash does not have set knockback, and therefore is actually possible (and imo easy) to escape. Perhaps it should have set knockback on the non-tipper hitboxes? I mean of course you can still DI out of it, like his B-Air or any attack that functions similarly (like Cross Slash) but now it can ACTUALLY be worth going for.

On your topic, I feel more like PK Fire is fine. Lucas's moves are not bad, it's mostly a good bit of his physics that hinder him. Pretty slow, kind of floaty, not very heavy...etc.

 

[Swevester]

1. it's not the the jump squat buff is bad in itself, but it's unnecessary, and unnecessary = waste of time and effort.
2. a frame 7 jab is not bad in the slightest cosidering the range and the disjoint, mewtwo's jab comes out frame 6 and palutena's at 8 and those moves are considered very optimal and useful.
3. yes you can use a frame 7 n-air out of shield, samus mains do it with a frame 8 nair.


i don't zee z-air as an aerial more so it's own thing.
i agree is (IMO) top tier while is (IMO) bottom tier, the buffs individually were fine, but you have to look at the package as a whole and how the buffs interact, for example giving a HOO-HAH is okay as long as you don't also buff his grab range and up-air knockback, maybe give link a frame 5/6 nair make the strong hit last longer and a 1 percent damage buff all around.

Z-Air is an aerial.

What he mentioned wasn't THAT good (though since we're talking about it, Ganon does need that grab range buff. The rest idk). Looking at the whole package there are still way better N-Airs that would be faster, stronger, last just as long if not longer, and in some cases would even still beat Link's. Simply put, this would be another way for Link to have options outside of simply turtling until he can get a small string that may or may not be successful, since his strings are already 50/50. However I do agree that making N-Air frame 5 would give him a much better "get off me" option, which Link doesn't have a whole lot of. I know we shouldn't overbuff characters, but just think: one gives him a new offensive option, the other increases the potency of the defensive option that already exists.

 

[Derpnaster]

Thus we see the issue with altering Link, he's in a weird spot where there are many ways to balance him in relation to the cast but nothing that is obviously better than the other options.

Giving Link more defense against faster fighters would be the fastest way to buff him and would not be bad at all.
While giving Link offensive assistance would also help him a lot.

What I can add to this is we really only need to buff his normals. If we tried to make his projectiles any faster we would just break the character. Let's not go for broken, Let's just take it slow and make a change here or there and see how it works

 

[Didier337]

Let's just take it slow and make a change here or there and see how it works

I agree

 

[anas abou]

here's what i'd do for link wy the way :

• Jab 1: frame 7 > 6.
• Jab 3: damage 5 > 6.
• Dash attack: frame 20 > 15, FAF 57 > 48.
• F-tilt: frame 15 > 12 FAF 38 > 33.
• U-tilt: damage 9 > 10, BKB 30 > 25, KBG increased all around.
• D-tilt: frame 11 > 8, FAF 29 > 25.
• F-smash: second hit comes out faster so it conects properly.
• N-air: frame 7 > 6, damage 11/9/6 > 12/10/8.
• F-air: frame 14 > 12, FAF 50 > 46, AutoCancel 51 > 47 (now AutoCancels on FullHop).
• B-air 2: damage 5 > 7, BKG 70 > 50, KBG 70 > 100.
• Bow: damage 5 > 8.
• Bomb: damage 5 > 8, KBG increased.

many small buffs, just the way i like it.

 

[Swevester]

Thus we see the issue with altering Link, he's in a weird spot where there are many ways to balance him in relation to the cast but nothing that is obviously better than the other options.

Giving Link more defense against faster fighters would be the fastest way to buff him and would not be bad at all.
While giving Link offensive assistance would also help him a lot.

What I can add to this is we really only need to buff his normals. If we tried to make his projectiles any faster we would just break the character. Let's not go for broken, Let's just take it slow and make a change here or there and see how it works

Makes sense.

here's what i'd do for link wy the way :

• Jab 1: frame 7 > 6.
• Jab 3: damage 5 > 6.
• Dash attack: frame 20 > 15, FAF 57 > 48.
• F-tilt: frame 15 > 12 FAF 38 > 33.
• U-tilt: damage 9 > 10, BKB 30 > 25, KBG increased all around.
• D-tilt: frame 11 > 8, FAF 29 > 25.
• F-smash: second hit comes out faster so it conects properly.
• N-air: frame 7 > 6, damage 11/9/6 > 12/10/8.
• F-air: frame 14 > 12, FAF 50 > 46, AutoCancel 51 > 47 (now AutoCancels on FullHop).
• B-air 2: damage 5 > 7, BKG 70 > 50, KBG 70 > 100.
• Bow: damage 5 > 8.
• Bomb: damage 5 > 8, KBG increased.

many small buffs, just the way i like it.

I actually like a lot of these because they're subtle and effective, but they don't make Link look like Falcon. I mostly just want Link's grab game to be better than "maybe if I throw this out, he won't expect it". I say don't touch Bow and Bombs, but give him pre-1.0.6 Up Throw and I would have no complaints with this.

 

[Derpnaster]

Makes sense.



I actually like a lot of these because they're subtle and effective, but they don't make Link look like Falcon. I mostly just want Link's grab game to be better than "maybe if I throw this out, he won't expect it". I say don't touch Bow and Bombs, but give him pre-1.0.6 Up Throw and I would have no complaints with this.

Maybe up the base knockback of his Forward and Back throws to make them better get off me throws or positioning throws.

 

[Shollyboster]

Zard f-tilt sucks, make it git gud

 

[TurboLink]

Thus we see the issue with altering Link, he's in a weird spot where there are many ways to balance him in relation to the cast but nothing that is obviously better than the other options.

Giving Link more defense against faster fighters would be the fastest way to buff him and would not be bad at all.
While giving Link offensive assistance would also help him a lot.

What I can add to this is we really only need to buff his normals. If we tried to make his projectiles any faster we would just break the character. Let's not go for broken, Let's just take it slow and make a change here or there and see how it works

How is giving Link a faster Gale Boomerang going to break the character? Gale Boomerang is 27 frames. That's slower than even Ness's/Lucas's PK Fire.

 

[Swevester]

Maybe up the base knockback of his Forward and Back throws to make them better get off me throws or positioning throws.

I say up it on Forward Throw, lower it on Back Throw. One is a good "get off me", the other is a decent way to combo into Back Air at around 10-30%. I mean, his grab is still real laggy, but at least now they all have a good use that isn't crazy broken.

Zard f-tilt sucks, make it git gud

That could use some fixing. I remember seeing it whiff point blank...got a bad case of Dong F-Smash syndrome

 

[Shollyboster]

Does anyone know whether the power of a projectile is proportionate to recoil when it hits Link Hylian Shield? If it isn't maybe we could take down the recoil for attacks such as Fox and Falco's lasers.

Not in Sm4sh. In Melee and Brawl, yes (Charge Shot would send him flying backwards). In this game it is set to go what looks like his wavedash distance in Melee.

Well, that's stupid. It's cool having a little perk like that, but it needs to go back. I can't believe I'm actually saying this, but I miss an aspect from Brawl.

 

[Swevester]

Does anyone know whether the power of a projectile is proportionate to recoil when it hits Link Hylian Shield? If it isn't maybe we could take down the recoil for attacks such as Fox and Falco's lasers.

Not in Sm4sh. In Melee and Brawl, yes (Charge Shot would send him flying backwards). In this game it is set to go what looks like his wavedash distance in Melee.

 

[Derpnaster]

How is giving Link a faster Gale Boomerang going to break the character? Gale Boomerang is 27 frames. That's slower than even Ness's/Lucas's PK Fire.

Gale confirms into FAir,that alone is scary enough without making it faster.

 

[Swevester]

Gale confirms into FAir,that alone is scary enough without making it faster.

Agreed, his projectiles are 100% fine (okay well I kind of wish Link could Z-drop without firing Clawshot but that's a game physic thing).

 

[Derpnaster]

Agreed, his projectiles are 100% fine (okay well I kind of wish Link could Z-drop without firing Clawshot but that's a game physic thing).

He can, but you have a very small window to do it

 

[Swevester]

He can, but you have a very small window to do it

I mean like he could in Melee and Brawl. Now that they no longer hurt him when they explode on foes, it could open up a lot of things (namely more reliable footstool combos )

Well, that's stupid. It's cool having a little perk like that, but it needs to go back. I can't believe I'm actually saying this, but I miss an aspect from Brawl.

I mean, it was an interesting perk but it's overall a large buff to not have it. Not to mention the Hylian shieldstun is still worlds better than bubble shieldstun and sometimes even perfect shieldstun. And it's pretty much the same story in Zelda games: he doesn't go flying backwards when something hits the shield, even powerful attacks. He just kind of staggers for a second, like he does in Smash.

 

[Derpnaster]

I mean like he could in Melee and Brawl. Now that they no longer hurt him when they explode on foes, it could open up a lot of things (namely more reliable footstool combos )

You can Instant Z drop from a footstool, It's technically not a Double Jump and is counted as a grounded jump which means you can drop without deploying tether

 

[Swevester]

You can Instant Z drop from a footstool, It's technically not a Double Jump and is counted as a grounded jump which means you can drop without deploying tether

True, but it's very precise to do and isn't half as reliable as it probably sounds. That's mostly why I would like the old Z-drop physics back: Link is having to be twice as precise as, say, Peach or R.O.B. for pretty much the same results. He's essentially being punished for HAVING a tool.

Anyways, the topic is beginning to stray. Has been given reasonable buffs? Because I had ideas for him, too. It's been too long since I've looked at the other pages of this thread, my mindset was stuck on Link (go figure).

 

[SalemtheEngineer]

Gale confirms into FAir,that alone is scary enough without making it faster.

That only works at specific percentages (mostly low and doesn't KO). Not to mention when you're just a little far Link is too slow to follow up the hit with a fair (the move has a slow startup). I think he needs a faster boomerang as an advantage over Toon Link's boomerang. Toon Link's boomerang has a hitbox on its way back, whereas Link's doesn't and people can use it against you.

So faster startup doesn't seem too bad.

here's what i'd do for link wy the way :

• Jab 1: frame 7 > 6.
• Jab 3: damage 5 > 6.
• Dash attack: frame 20 > 15, FAF 57 > 48.
• F-tilt: frame 15 > 12 FAF 38 > 33.
• U-tilt: damage 9 > 10, BKB 30 > 25, KBG increased all around.
• D-tilt: frame 11 > 8, FAF 29 > 25.
• F-smash: second hit comes out faster so it conects properly.
• N-air: frame 7 > 6, damage 11/9/6 > 12/10/8.
• F-air: frame 14 > 12, FAF 50 > 46, AutoCancel 51 > 47 (now AutoCancels on FullHop).
• B-air 2: damage 5 > 7, BKG 70 > 50, KBG 70 > 100.
• Bow: damage 5 > 8.
• Bomb: damage 5 > 8, KBG increased.

many small buffs, just the way i like it.

Okay I'm not going to lie, I do like a lot of these changes. Although I still think nair needs to come out on frame 4. Guess we'll settle with frame 5.

 

[Derpnaster]

That only works at specific percentages (mostly low and doesn't KO). Not to mention when you're just a little far Link is too slow to follow up the hit with a fair (the move has a slow startup). I think he needs a faster boomerang as an advantage over Toon Link's boomerang. Toon Link's boomerang has a hitbox on its way back, whereas Link's doesn't and people can use it against you.

So faster startup doesn't seem too bad.



Okay I'm not going to lie, I do like a lot of these changes. Although I still think nair needs to come out on frame 4. Guess we'll settle with frame 5.

The thing with people using Gale against Link is Link can use that attempt at a punish to get in an even harder punish, the key to it is not actually do anything until Gale starts to return, Then the moment you see them jump or charge a smash you charge your own or pull a bomb and laugh inside as they realize how dead they are for even trying that approach

One thing I highly suggest everyone do before crying for changes to anything in regards to Link's projectiles is look at EVERY way you can use them don't just look at the current "optimal" method of play, look and think outside the box, try playing matches where you aren't just throwing out Gale because it's a decent hitbox or it can be angled, look at where you want Gale and what you want to do with it, use it not just hit someone but try making it miss intentionally or anticipating the reflect and pulling something else since that option is now safe, Think not just in what can I do to keep them out, but try using Gale to pull them in before they want to or maybe force a reflect or shield to get off another option like bombs or grabs.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you look at every way Link can use his projectiles, they really don't need anything, they are scarry enough as it is.

 

[SalemtheEngineer]

The thing with people using Gale against Link is Link can use that attempt at a punish to get in an even harder punish, the key to it is not actually do anything until Gale starts to return, Then the moment you see them jump or charge a smash you charge your own or pull a bomb and laugh inside as they realize how dead they are for even trying that approach

One thing I highly suggest everyone do before crying for changes to anything in regards to Link's projectiles is look at EVERY way you can use them don't just look at the current "optimal" method of play, look and think outside the box, try playing matches where you aren't just throwing out Gale because it's a decent hitbox or it can be angled, look at where you want Gale and what you want to do with it, use it not just hit someone but try making it miss intentionally or anticipating the reflect and pulling something else since that option is now safe, Think not just in what can I do to keep them out, but try using Gale to pull them in before they want to or maybe force a reflect or shield to get off another option like bombs or grabs.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you look at every way Link can use his projectiles, they really don't need anything, they are scarry enough as it is.

There's nothing wrong with his projectiles. I'm just saying his boomerang needs at the very least a startup advantage over Toon Link. Because Toon Link's boomerang can get him out of grabs while Link can't.

Not to mention the gale boomerang coming back can be easily be shielded and air dodged.

I'm not knocking the thing, I've done some very satisfying things with it that the regular boomerang can't do (gimping is so fun). I just think it needs a slightly faster startup.

Unless you'd rather have ZeRo's suggestion which is to double the hitstun in his projectiles lol. That would then break the character considering he hits like a tank.

 

[Derpnaster]

There's nothing wrong with his projectiles. I'm just saying his boomerang needs at the very least a startup advantage over Toon Link. Because Toon Link's boomerang can get him out of grabs while Link can't.

Not to mention the gale boomerang coming back can be easily be shielded and air dodged.

I'm not knocking the thing, I've done some very satisfying things with it that the regular boomerang can't do (gimping is so fun). I just think it needs a slightly faster startup.

Unless you'd rather have ZeRo's suggestion which is to double the hitstun in his projectiles lol. That would then break the character considering he hits like a tank.

Gale's advantage is it doesn't take forever to come back and doesn't betray Link anywhere nearly as much as Toon Link's can/does, plus it can still clash and even disrupt a lot of attacks on the return. I've been saved rather consistently because Gale came and clashed with a smash attack or it sent a Limit Cross Slash flying too far to hit yielding a painful punish(Remember all those times in melee where Rang just left and never came back)

I honestly think Gale is just fine where it is, as for extra hitstun, oh god no.

I do admit to having a very nonconventional way of seeing smash, and for me just having reliability or predictability in behavior is a very strong advantage in regards to a projectile.
That's why I think Gale is already a better projectile than ToonRang, it's more reliable, it's behavior is more predictable (In the good way, you always know how Gale will act and what it will do), it has more utility when every aspect of it is applied properly. And it is far more useful for just throwing out over the edge because it won't restore recovery when it returns and it with the right timing will just place the target right in range for something painful.

 

[SalemtheEngineer]

Gale's advantage is it doesn't take forever to come back and doesn't betray Link anywhere nearly as much as Toon Link's can/does, plus it can still clash and even disrupt a lot of attacks on the return. I've been saved rather consistently because Gale came and clashed with a smash attack or it sent a Limit Cross Slash flying too far to hit yielding a painful punish(Remember all those times in melee where Rang just left and never came back)

I honestly think Gale is just fine where it is, as for extra hitstun, oh god no.

I do admit to having a very nonconventional way of seeing smash, and for me just having reliability or predictability in behavior is a very strong advantage in regards to a projectile.
That's why I think Gale is already a better projectile than ToonRang, it's more reliable, it's behavior is more predictable (In the good way, you always know how Gale will act and what it will do), it has more utility when every aspect of it is applied properly. And it is far more useful for just throwing out over the edge because it won't restore recovery when it returns and it with the right timing will just place the target right in range for something painful.

I'm still not sure. It's speed of fine, just needs to come out on frame 25 or 26 (Toon Link's comes out on frame 27 just like Link). I'm not sure what you mean about the ToonRang betraying Toon Link, I have never seen that ever happen and every Toon Link player I played against had consistent saves from the ToonRang. I sometimes play Toon Link myself and never had it once betray me, it always saved me from a bunch of stuff.

I do have a lot of saves from the GaleRang like you said and they are consistent. Mainly when Fox jab locks into an up smash.

But I'm still not convinced that it shouldn't come out at least on frame 26. I think GaleRang needs a frame advantage over the ToonRang.

 

[Swevester]

If I had any complaint about Gale Boomerang, it'd probably be that I never feel like the windbox on the 2nd phase is very strong, but I know that's just me. If it did lose some startup, that'd be nice because he's always really close to getting that GB -> F-Air true combo without the need of wavebouncing. Since you need two different setups to do Bombsliding and wavebouncing, that could be a substantial change in Link's meta because the ability to do these things at once would most certainly make him much more viable. My only problem is what the perfect frame change would be...somewhere between 21 and 24 frames of startup, I'm sure.

 

[Derpnaster]

I'm not saying that faster frame data would be a bad thing for Link, I just think it's overkill for an already very powerful tool. Just making Link faster already solves the issue of Gale to FAir not connecting as well and honestly with as fast as Gale is once it is out we have little if any real need to make it release faster, especially if we intend to give link's normal better frame data as seems to be something we generally agree upon.

On bombsliding,
I actually just use the A+B method which is available by default and can use all of the bombslides except the really stange item discard option.

A+B method being you input the first throw with an Attack button, then input a Smash Attack by holding A and pressing B (A+B = Smash) , while doing this use the left stick to do a sort of Haduken or Tatsu input depending on the type of slide you want. It's a lot to do in one setup but it's eaiser to pull off and saves controller space.

 

[Swevester]

I'm not saying that faster frame data would be a bad thing for Link, I just think it's overkill for an already very powerful tool. Just making Link faster already solves the issue of Gale to FAir not connecting as well and honestly with as fast as Gale is once it is out we have little if any real need to make it release faster, especially if we intend to give link's normal better frame data as seems to be something we generally agree upon.

And, we have once again reached this impasse of Link having so many things that can be buffed, but is incapable of receiving them all if we were to maintain balance to the whole game. In the long run it really comes down to what he NEEDS: as much as I love the thought of Link being this super awesome tech-heavy character with solid projectile kill confirms, I do really think his basic attacks could use some love.

I'm speaking, of course, out of justification. If it were up to me I'd probably take the GB change because I love getting these kind of things, they fit perfectly into how I play.

Edit: I've never read up on the A+B method, I've always used the method with the A-stick. While it works, I also have a separate controller setup for wavebouncing. I just wish that I could use the two at the same time, is all. If A+B can do that, I should touch up on it and give it a try.

 

[Derpnaster]

And, we have once again reached this impasse of Link having so many things that can be buffed, but is incapable of receiving them all if we were to maintain balance to the whole game. In the long run it really comes down to what he NEEDS: as much as I love the thought of Link being this super awesome tech-heavy character with solid projectile kill confirms, I do really think his basic attacks could use some love.

I'm speaking, of course, out of justification. If it were up to me I'd probably take the GB change because I love getting these kind of things, they fit perfectly into how I play.

Edit: I've never read up on the A+B method, I've always used the method with the A-stick. While it works, I also have a separate controller setup for wavebouncing. I just wish that I could use the two at the same time, is all. If A+B can do that, I should touch up on it and give it a try.

A+B works with Default controls + Notap, a word of warning however. I use a Pro Controller, so it's easier for me to use it, though I also can use it with a Game Cube controller it's harder to do because it's a smaller B button. Personally I don't wavebounce I just play a very patient and punish heavy playstyle that reflects gameplay in the Zelda games

 

[Swevester]

A+B works with Default controls + Notap, a word of warning however. I use a Pro Controller, so it's easier for me to use it, though I also can use it with a Game Cube controller it's harder to do because it's a smaller B button. Personally I don't wavebounce I just play a very patient and punish heavy playstyle that reflects gameplay in the Zelda games

Conveniently, I use the Pro Controller as well. And I have come to learn my playstyle of never letting the foe breathe fits Link pretty well as long as you're always on your toes. He isn't 100% patient in Zelda either I might add (I don't care what Egoraptor says), a little bit of intelligence can save you a headache in Zelda. I have tons of examples, but that would be going over a lot of Zelda games.

Anyways, since it feels like the part of this thread about Link will see it's twilight soon (pun intended), the last thing I wish to go over is Hylian Shield. Then, someone needs to jot down everything that's been agreed on. HS is supposed to be Link's main method of projectile defense, but all it can really do is occasionally save Link from an extra Blaster shot or something. It doesn't protect against things like Mario's Fireball pressure, Mega Man's Metal Blade combos, or literally anything Arcthunder can set up. Is it possible to buff this somehow without overdoing it?

 

[Derpnaster]

Conveniently, I use the Pro Controller as well. And I have come to learn my playstyle of never letting the foe breathe fits Link pretty well as long as you're always on your toes. He isn't 100% patient in Zelda either I might add (I don't care what Egoraptor says), a little bit of intelligence can save you a headache in Zelda. I have tons of examples, but that would be going over a lot of Zelda games.

Anyways, since it feels like the part of this thread about Link will see it's twilight soon (pun intended), the last thing I wish to go over is Hylian Shield. Then, someone needs to jot down everything that's been agreed on. HS is supposed to be Link's main method of projectile defense, but all it can really do is occasionally save Link from an extra Blaster shot or something. It doesn't protect against things like Mario's Fireball pressure, Mega Man's Metal Blade combos, or literally anything Arcthunder can set up. Is it possible to buff this somehow without overdoing it?

The issue would be with how Hylian Shield is treated in the game. In smash 4 it literally only blocks anything if Link is A) walking or standing , and B) the projectile does not come into contact with any part of Link's hurtbox.
I've found that HS will block quite a bit if Link is walking forward because it is actually held lower in relation to Link's body.

One way to buff this, and I do agree Hylian Shield could do with more consistency. would be to increase the size of the hitbox so that it covers to about Link's knees while standing, it already covers his face. Link can't get hit with Mewtwo's Disable unless he gets his face behind the shield

 

[Swevester]

The issue would be with how Hylian Shield is treated in the game. In smash 4 it literally only blocks anything if Link is A) walking or standing , and B) the projectile does not come into contact with any part of Link's hurtbox.
I've found that HS will block quite a bit if Link is walking forward because it is actually held lower in relation to Link's body.

One way to buff this, and I do agree Hylian Shield could do with more consistency. would be to increase the size of the hitbox so that it covers to about Link's knees while standing, it already covers his face. Link can't get hit with Mewtwo's Disable unless he gets his face behind the shield

The biggest buff they could have ever given Hylian Shield was it's ability to stay up when Link walks. Going down to his knees would certainly protect against Mario's pressure, and other characters with similar tactics. It still wouldn't defend against a Metal Blade or Arcthunder, which with Mega Man I'll let slide since that MU is already kind of iffy for the super fighting robot. Robin, however...I guess you can't win them all. And yea, it can block quite a lot. The sheer expression on a Zelda main's face as her Phantom Slash is brushed aside like it's made of cardboard is priceless.

 

[SalemtheEngineer]

The biggest buff they could have ever given Hylian Shield was it's ability to stay up when Link walks. Going down to his knees would certainly protect against Mario's pressure, and other characters with similar tactics. It still wouldn't defend against a Metal Blade or Arcthunder, which with Mega Man I'll let slide since that MU is already kind of iffy for the super fighting robot. Robin, however...I guess you can't win them all. And yea, it can block quite a lot. The sheer expression on a Zelda main's face as her Phantom Slash is brushed aside like it's made of cardboard is priceless.

You mean make it like the actual Zelda games where Link holds his shield in front of him all the time? I kinda like the way they did that in Project M.

In terms of overall buffs and needs do we need to vote on what changes we would like so we can come to a final decision?

 

[RedMarf78]

I'm quite surprised to hear from link mains that his projectiles are fine. When I fight against the character I always find that they're too slow to pose a huge threat and that you just have to take the game slowly and approach with perfect shields till mid range at which point he can't really safely throwout anything but boomerang.

I'm adding this part of the post after watching Izaw play for a while. Coming from that I agree that link's projectiles are pretty good, (guess the link's I fought weren't very good)) but I still think boomerang could use a tad less start-up. I thinks his arrows should receive a buff though because while link is good at mid ranges in the matches I watched and from personal experience he's not very threatening at far ranges. Boomerang is slow enough that anyone far away from link won't get hit unless they went to the bathroom mid match and bombs just don't go that far. A buff to arrows for his long distance game would be the buff I think his projectiles need (along with some damage buffs perhaps).

PS: This might just be my way of saying put brawl quickdrawing back in the game.

 

[Derpnaster]

So what we have that most of us agree on is this list

• Jab 1: frame 7 > 6.
• Jab 3: damage 5 > 6.
• Dash attack: frame 20 > 15, FAF 57 > 48.
• F-tilt: frame 15 > 12 FAF 38 > 33.
• U-tilt: damage 9 > 10, BKB 30 > 25, KBG increased all around.
• D-tilt: frame 11 > 8, FAF 29 > 25.
• F-smash: second hit comes out faster so it conects properly.
• N-air: frame 7 > 6, damage 11/9/6 > 12/10/8.
• F-air: frame 14 > 12, FAF 50 > 46, AutoCancel 51 > 47 (now AutoCancels on FullHop).
• B-air 2: damage 5 > 7, BKG 70 > 50, KBG 70 > 100.
• Bow: damage 5 > 8.
• Bomb: damage 5 > 8, KBG increased.

No changes to movement or any other attribute with some discussion on a 5 frame jumpsquat
I'd compromise on that and say a 6 frame one would be OK or just not buffing it at all.

And some (Very good I might add that was some of the best posting I've seen here) discussion on giving Gale 26 to 21 frames of startup over it's current 27

Personally I don't think bow or bombs need those changes and the bomb changes might hurt their utility a little at later game.
Other than that and Gale I think we have a good starting place and we can buff Link more if need be.

 

[Swevester]

I'm quite surprised to hear from link mains that his projectiles are fine. When I fight against the character I always find that they're too slow to pose a huge threat and that you just have to take the game slowly and approach with perfect shields till mid range at which point he can't really safely throwout anything but boomerang.

I'm adding this part of the post after watching Izaw play for a while. Coming from that I agree that link's projectiles are pretty good, (guess the link's I fought weren't very good)) but I still think boomerang could use a tad less start-up. I thinks his arrows should receive a buff though because while link is good at mid ranges in the matches I watched and from personal experience he's not very threatening at far ranges. Boomerang is slow enough that anyone far away from link won't get hit unless they went to the bathroom mid match and bombs just don't go that far. A buff to arrows for his long distance game would be the buff I think his projectiles need (along with some damage buffs perhaps).

PS: This might just be my way of saying put brawl quickdrawing back in the game.

Link mains can usually agree with each other. Everyone on the Link boards are pretty relaxed. Haven't ventured very far out of them (yet) so idk what any of the other boards look like. His projectiles, you see, are kind of his saving grace. They just look really...small when they're spammed. Which since spammy Link is pretty common, it just makes him look easy to counter. Quickdrawing was nice...

So what we have that most of us agree on is this list

• Jab 1: frame 7 > 6.
• Jab 3: damage 5 > 6.
• Dash attack: frame 20 > 15, FAF 57 > 48.
• F-tilt: frame 15 > 12 FAF 38 > 33.
• U-tilt: damage 9 > 10, BKB 30 > 25, KBG increased all around.
• D-tilt: frame 11 > 8, FAF 29 > 25.
• F-smash: second hit comes out faster so it conects properly.
• N-air: frame 7 > 6, damage 11/9/6 > 12/10/8.
• F-air: frame 14 > 12, FAF 50 > 46, AutoCancel 51 > 47 (now AutoCancels on FullHop).
• B-air 2: damage 5 > 7, BKG 70 > 50, KBG 70 > 100.
• Bow: damage 5 > 8.
• Bomb: damage 5 > 8, KBG increased.

No changes to movement or any other attribute with some discussion on a 5 frame jumpsquat
I'd compromise on that and say a 6 frame one would be OK or just not buffing it at all.

And some (Very good I might add that was some of the best posting I've seen here) discussion on giving Gale 26 to 21 frames of startup over it's current 27

Personally I don't think bow or bombs need those changes and the bomb changes might hurt their utility a little at later game.
Other than that and Gale I think we have a good starting place and we can buff Link more if need be.

I still stand by my aforementioned throw buffs over the Bow/Bomb buffs, but if that's what we agree on, then very well.

 

[Derpnaster]

Link mains can usually agree with each other. Everyone on the Link boards are pretty relaxed. Haven't ventured very far out of them (yet) so idk what any of the other boards look like. His projectiles, you see, are kind of his saving grace. They just look really...small when they're spammed. Which since spammy Link is pretty common, it just makes him look easy to counter. Quickdrawing was nice...



I still stand by my aforementioned throw buffs over the Bow/Bomb buffs, but if that's what we agree on, then very well.

I forgot about that sorry, Yeah I think we generally agreed upon buffing all of Link's normals over his specials.

 

[ElectroLightning]

Should Pit be buffed?

 

[SalemtheEngineer]

So what we have that most of us agree on is this list

• Jab 1: frame 7 > 6.
• Jab 3: damage 5 > 6.
• Dash attack: frame 20 > 15, FAF 57 > 48.
• F-tilt: frame 15 > 12 FAF 38 > 33.
• U-tilt: damage 9 > 10, BKB 30 > 25, KBG increased all around.
• D-tilt: frame 11 > 8, FAF 29 > 25.
• F-smash: second hit comes out faster so it conects properly.
• N-air: frame 7 > 6, damage 11/9/6 > 12/10/8.
• F-air: frame 14 > 12, FAF 50 > 46, AutoCancel 51 > 47 (now AutoCancels on FullHop).
• B-air 2: damage 5 > 7, BKG 70 > 50, KBG 70 > 100.
• Bow: damage 5 > 8.
• Bomb: damage 5 > 8, KBG increased.

No changes to movement or any other attribute with some discussion on a 5 frame jumpsquat
I'd compromise on that and say a 6 frame one would be OK or just not buffing it at all.

And some (Very good I might add that was some of the best posting I've seen here) discussion on giving Gale 26 to 21 frames of startup over it's current 27

Personally I don't think bow or bombs need those changes and the bomb changes might hurt their utility a little at later game.
Other than that and Gale I think we have a good starting place and we can buff Link more if need be.

I agree with most things there.

I'm not sure about the bomb buff, though. Damage buff sounds nice, but the KBG increased could affect the way Link combos his bombs into his aerials. I don't think I agree with that.

I don't mind the Bow buff but if anyone's against I don't mind either since I think it's fine with or without the damage buff.

I think the Gale Boomerang should come out on frame 24.

I think Link needs a slight speed buff (Don't worry it's not an insane buff). Something like this:

• Run Speed: 1.3944 -> 1.43
• Walk Speed: 1.188 -> 1.223

I'm fine with jump squats being reduced to 6 frames (better than 7)

 

[anas abou]

I agree with most things there.

I'm not sure about the bomb buff, though. Damage buff sounds nice, but the KBG increased could affect the way Link combos his bombs into his aerials. I don't think I agree with that.

I don't mind the Bow buff but if anyone's against I don't mind either since I think it's fine with or without the damage buff.

I think the Gale Boomerang should come out on frame 24.

I think Link needs a slight speed buff (Don't worry it's not an insane buff). Something like this:

• Run Speed: 1.3944 -> 1.43
• Walk Speed: 1.188 -> 1.223

I'm fine with jump squats being reduced to 6 frames (better than 7)

yeah speed and jumpsquat buffs are wanted, projectile stuff is not necessary.

• Jab 1: frame 7 > 6.
• Jab 3: damage 5 > 6.
• Dash attack: frame 20 > 15, FAF 57 > 48.
• F-tilt: frame 15 > 12 FAF 38 > 33.
• U-tilt: damage 9 > 10, BKB 30 > 25, FAF 36 > 32, KBG increased all around.
• D-tilt: frame 11 > 8, FAF 29 > 25.
• F-smash: second hit comes out faster so it connects properly.
• N-air: frame 7 > 6, damage 11/9/6 > 12/10/8.
• F-air: frame 14 > 12, FAF 50 > 46, AutoCancel 51 > 47 (now AutoCancels on FullHop).
• U-air: damage 15 > 16, BKB 18 > 20, KBG 88 > 90.
  
• B-air 2: damage 5 > 7, BKG 70 > 50, KBG 70.
• Run Speed: 1.3944 > 1.43.
• Air Speed: 1.88 > 1.92.
• jumpsquat: frames 7 > 6.

this satisfies everyone.

Should Pit be buffed?

i think pit and dark pit should be slightly decloned by giving each different buffs, i say give pit damage buffs + weight, and give dark pit frame data + speed buffs.

 

[Shollyboster]

i think pit and dark pit should be decloned by giving each different buffs, i say give pit damage buffs + weight, and give dark pit frame data + speed buffs.

I actually disagree on two fronts. Dark Pit comes off as a character that would want to be more based on attack, similarly to Doctor Mario.

I also disagree on the entire concept of "decloning" these two characters. They were actually intended to be clones in their respective games, why change that? I don't like the concept of clones in any game (save for Akuma and Oni) but frankly this particular scenario fits.

 

[anas abou]

I actually disagree on two fronts. Dark Pit comes off as a character that would want to be more based on attack, similarly to Doctor Mario.

I also disagree on the entire concept of "decloning" these two characters. They were actually intended to be clones in their respective games, why change that? I don't like the concept of clones in any game (save for Akuma and Oni) but frankly this particular scenario fits.

i wouldn't have them completely declonded, just give them more differences so there's incentive to pick one over the other.
pit hits harder since his weapon is golden a very heavy metal, while dark pit's weapon is lighter so he can run faster.

dark pit changes :
Jab 1: frame 5 > 4.
Dash attack: frame 7 > 6, FAF 39 > 36.
B-air: frame 10 > 8.
F-air: frame 11 > 9.
D-air: frame 10 > 8..
Electroshock arm (air): FAF 121 > 78.
Run speed: 1.66215 > 1.73
pit changes :
Jab 3: damage 5 > 6.
Dash attack: damage 11 > 13.
B-air: damage 12/8 > 13/10.
F-air 3: damage 4 > 5.
D-air: damage 10 >13.
Upperdash arm: damage 11 > 13.
Upperdash arm (air): damage 9 > 10, FAF 121 > 96.
weight: 96 > 103

and fix up-smash hitbox for both.