Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[Eugene Wang]

And while we're at it, give Dark Pit's silver bow and Pit's upperdash arm some frame data buffs? Currently they're outclassed by their counterparts' respective options.

 

[Swevester]

I forgot about that sorry, Yeah I think we generally agreed upon buffing all of Link's normals over his specials.

It's all good. I only wanted to throw in my two cents on the current situation, I have a whole list of things I really wish I could see (I would totally trade some of these buffs for an autocancel F-Air between hits, like Roy's N-Air...but that's just me). These changes are good.

Should Pit be buffed?

Honestly, not really. Pit and Pittoo are already high tier characters, if some hitbox placements need adjusting (they have so many multi-hit moves, I would believe there are a few blindspots/whiffs) then that's okay. I don't care where a character's tier placement is, if there's a blindspot, fix it. A general rule of thumb. That Dedede Down Tilt gif made me cringe.

 

[Shollyboster]

i wouldn't have them completely declonded, just give them more differences so there's incentive to pick one over the other.
pit hits harder since his weapon is golden a very heavy metal, while dark pit's weapon is lighter so he can run faster.

Can confirm. Gold is about twice as heavy as silver. Perhaps we could increase rage as well? Similar to Lucario, except not as STUPIDLY OVERPOWERED!!!

A good balance could be to make Pit weigh less to balance out these buffs, but I guess that would contradict the whole "gold is heavy" deal....... Just looked back on the attributes you put in, and I can see that you actually buffed Pit's weight.

In my opinion these are too many buffs, and not enough nerfs. We don't want to create a Project M situation where these characters are becoming too good.

On the flip side, can we do something about Pit/too's f-tilt? Make it have less lag, even if only for Dark Pit?

And while we're at it, give Dark Pit's silver bow and Pit's upperdash arm some frame data buffs? Currently they're outclassed by their counterparts' respective options.

We could do a thing where Dark Pit's arrows go faster. I think the frame data is decent as it is.

As for Pit's upper dash arm, I'd like to see it safer on block and have less ending lag.

Honestly, not really. Pit and Pittoo are already high tier characters,

HAHAHAHAHAHA

if some hitbox placements need adjusting (they have so many multi-hit moves, I would believe there are a few blindspots/whiffs) then that's okay. I don't care where a character's tier placement is.

Oh, you're serious. Firstly, Pit and Dark Pit should theoretically be very high tier characters, but in tournament and practical/personally results I have seen that they aren't. Secondly, if you don't care about tiers, why even bring them up?

 

[Frihetsanka]

In my opinion these are too many buffs, and not enough nerfs. We don't want to create a Project M situation where these characters are becoming too good

It might be better to not buff them as much instead of nerfing them. Probably easier to balance that way too.

Oh, you're serious. Firstly, Pit and Dark Pit should theoretically be very high tier characters, but in tournament and practical/personally results I have seen that they aren't. Secondly, if you don't care about tiers, why even bring them up?

Dabuz (widely considered the 3rd best player in the world) considers them high tier. #18 on his tier list.

https://twitter.com/DabuzSenpai/status/755201863612567552

I personally think they're more high-mid tier and probably not quite top 20 (top 25). I don't think they need much though, some small buffs would be fine.

 

[Shollyboster]

this is default.

this is not.

I personally think they're more high-mid tier and probably not quite top 20 (top 25). I don't think they need much though, some small buffs would be fine.

I agree with you there.

 

[Swevester]

HAHAHAHAHAHA Oh, you're serious. Firstly, Pit and Dark Pit should theoretically be very high tier characters, but in tournament and practical/personally results I have seen that they aren't. Secondly, if you don't care about tiers, why even bring them up?

I bring them up because the aim of this is to (theoretically) make every character a high tier character, that's why we spent so long trying to figure out how to proceed with Link (he's always either not good enough with how he stands or too good with the buffs he is given, finding a sweetspot for him is difficult). The only reason I say break this rule in this instance is because a move unnecessarily whiffing is not intended to happen and therefore should always be treated as more of a bug fix than a buff.

 

[RedMarf78]

My final two cents on Link. Do you guys think think it would be a good idea to buff his air speed to 1.0 and his air acceleration to 5.0? Hear me out. I've heard talk about how buffing link's movement would break the character but that would only really be true if you buffed his speed up to sheik levels (and even then his frame data would hold him back a lot).

We all know that link has trouble when opponents are up close and accels when his opponents are at mid range. A better air speed would give link the ability to create space for him to use his projectiles more effectively, better his kinda subpar neutral by just letting him move and space around his hitboxes more freely and improve the consistency of his back air combos and bomb confirms. I feel that an air mobility buff would benefit Link much better than a ground mobility buff and that having a better airspeed would the character more fluid and viable overall.

Keep in mind that other projectile characters like samus, rob, duckhunt and megaman outclass link in terms of air speed, air acceleration AND ground speed. I get that link has more raw power than these guys but is him having that much less mobility despite his projectiles not even being that great at very far distances really necessary?

Finally before anyone says that better airspeed would make his bomb confirms too good or something note that link's fair (first hit) only starts being stronger than links past like 70%. Their power is relatively on par and this concept of equal power holds true for up air as well. Tink's dair and bair are stronger than links with nair being the only move that is notably weaker that link's. Toon link currently has WAY better mobility that link but his confirms aren't broken so I don't see how link's possibly could be.

If you ask better air speed just kills two birds with one stone. You give him a better neutral and keep away game in one fell swoop.

 

[anas abou]

I just found out that 's up air kills earlier than 's, that's just not not okay.

U-air: damage 15 > 16, BKB 18 > 20, KBG 88 > 90.

this should do it.

Do you guys think think it would be a good idea to buff his air speed to 1.0 and his air acceleration to 5.0?

1.00 is too much i say 0.92.

 

[Derpnaster]

My final two cents on Link. Do you guys think think it would be a good idea to buff his air speed to 1.0 and his air acceleration to 5.0? Hear me out. I've heard talk about how buffing link's movement would break the character but that would only really be true if you buffed his speed up to sheik levels (and even then his frame data would hold him back a lot).

We all know that link has trouble when opponents are up close and accels when his opponents are at mid range. A better air speed would give link the ability to create space for him to use his projectiles more effectively, better his kinda subpar neutral by just letting him move and space around his hitboxes more freely and improve the consistency of his back air combos and bomb confirms. I feel that an air mobility buff would benefit Link much better than a ground mobility buff and that having a better airspeed would the character more fluid and viable overall.

Keep in mind that other projectile characters like samus, rob, duckhunt and megaman outclass link in terms of air speed, air acceleration AND ground speed. I get that link has more raw power than these guys but is him having that much less mobility despite his projectiles not even being that great at very far distances really necessary?

Finally before anyone says that better airspeed would make his bomb confirms too good or something note that link's fair (first hit) only starts being stronger than links past like 70%. Their power is relatively on par and this concept of equal power holds true for up air as well. Tink's dair and bair are stronger than links with nair being the only move that is notably weaker that link's. Toon link currently has WAY better mobility that link but his confirms aren't broken so I don't see how link's possibly could be.

If you ask better air speed just kills two birds with one stone. You give him a better neutral and keep away game in one fell swoop.

Firstly, yes that dramatic an airspeed increases actually would break Link. He's a slow character and his moves are built around being slow, if we made him even as fast as say Marth, he would be broken, his short high damage strings could potentially become longer high damage strings or just become stupidly easy to land, which takes away from the whole concept of Risk = Reward, you're rewarding a Link for throwing out a move or two that now carries less risk than before and has a lot of reward in terms of damage. It's a lot of why Toon Link kills a lot later than Link, he has less risk because he is faster and has faster moves that can combo therefore the devs gave his less overall reward to compensate for him being so freaking safe and easy to combo with.

Same happened to Sheik, she got most of her super reliable kill options taken away and now has to go for less safe and generally speaking more rewarding bouncing fish kills.

Speaking from experience it's a very bad Idea to combine high levels of safety, or even moderate levels of safety, with very high reward and decent speed Look at what happened to Corin, she actually was made SLOWER because she had so much reward from just her air game. However to compensate and bring the entire character together they also changed land speed to better sync with the new slower air speed.

 

[anas abou]

this might be my last post for the week since i'm traveling tomorrow and i'm not sure if i will get internet connection, so these are my final redone thoughts on link's and pit's/pitoo's changes, i think anyone will find these satisfactory and not too overbaord.

link's changes :

• Jab 1: frame 7 > 6.
• Jab 3: damage 5 > 6.
• Dash attack: frame 20 > 15, FAF 57 > 48.
• F-tilt: frame 15 > 12 FAF 38 > 33.
• U-tilt: damage 9 > 10, BKB 30 > 25, FAF 36 > 32, KBG increased all around.
• D-tilt: frame 11 > 8, FAF 29 > 25.
• F-smash: second hit comes out faster so it connects properly.
• N-air: frame 7 > 5, damage 11/9/6 > 12/10/8.
• F-air: frame 14 > 12, FAF 50 > 46, AutoCancel 51 > 47 (now AutoCancels on FullHop).
• U-air: damage 15 > 16, BKB 18 > 20, KBG 88 > 90.
• B-air 2: damage 5 > 7, BKG 70 > 50, KBG 70.
• Run Speed: 1.3944 > 1.43.
• Air Speed: 1.88 > 1.92.
• jumpsquat: frames 7 > 6.

dark pit's changes :

• Jab 1: frame 5 > 4.
• Dash attack: frame 7 > 6, FAF 39 > 36.
• B-air: frame 10 > 8.
• F-air: frame 11 > 9.
• D-air: frame 10 > 8..
• Electroshock arm (air): FAF 121 > 78.
• Run speed: 1.66215 > 1.73.
• fix back hitbox of up-smash.

pit's changes :

• Jab 3: damage 5 > 6.
• Dash attack: damage 11 > 13.
• B-air: damage 12/8 > 13/10.
• F-air 3: damage 4 > 5.
• D-air: damage 10 >13.
• Upperdash arm: damage 11 > 13.
• Upperdash arm (air): damage 9 > 10, FAF 121 > 96.
• weight: 96 > 103.
• fix back hitbox of up-smash.

 

[Halcy0n]

Got some Marth change's for you:

• Marth's Uthrow: Damage 4 -> 5, Angle 93 -> 90
• Marth's Fthrow: Damage 4 -> 5, BKB 100 -> 85
• Marth's Dthrow: BKB 95 -> 80, KBG 50 -> 60
• Marth's Bthrow: Damage 4 -> 5
• Marth's Dolphin Slash: Intangible on the ground 4-5 -> 1-5, KBG 74 -> 70, Damage 11 -> 13, Landing during freefall/helpless 20 > 25 frames, Make late hit send into tumble at mid percents.
  
• Marth's Nair: FAF 50 -> 45
• Marth's Fair: FAF 38 -> 36, Autocancel Window 36> to 30>, Landing Lag 16 -> 15 Like a non L cancel in melee
  
• Marth's Bair: FAF 40 -> 38
  
• Marth's Dair (spike): BKB 20 -> 30
• Marth's Utilt: 5, 6, 9% -> 6, 7, 10% and 65 BKB -> 55 BKB; late hit 52 BKB -> 45 BKB.
• Marth's Usmash: FAF 59 -> 55
• Marth's Jab 2: FAF 29 -> 26 to match Jab 1
  
• Marth's Dtilt: FAF 24 -> 23
  
• Undo the shield damage nerf for the tipper only
• Counter's quotes brought back

Also fix those sword trails! They are so misleading...
(You can apply some of this to Lucina as well)

 

[anas abou]

Marth's Dolphin Slash: Intangible on the ground 4-5 -> 1-5, KBG 74 -> 70, Damage 11 -> 13, Landing during freefall/helpless 20 > 25 frames, Make late hit send into tumble at mid percents

aerial dolphin slash has frame 1 invincibility to escape combos, since you usually aren't touching the ground when getting comboed, giving the grounded dolphin slash frame 1 invincibility is kinda dumb, also 13 damage means it can kill at relatively early percents, it shouldn't, again marth is a good character he doesn't need much, i say just keep the throw changes and disregard the rest.

 

[Halcy0n]

aerial dolphin slash has frame 1 invincibility to escape combos, since you usually aren't touching the ground when getting comboed, giving the groud dolphin slash frame 1 invincibility is kinda dumb,also 13 damage means it can kill at relatevly early percents, it shouldn't, again marth is a good character he doesn't need much, i say just keep the throw changes and disregard the rest.

I literally made it just a tiny bit stronger than brawls dolphin slash. Also, the 1-5 intangibility on the ground just makes it a better OoS option. It's practically brawls dolphin slash.

And your going to disregard bringing the counter quotes back? Really?

 

[Derpnaster]

Smash 4 isn't Brawl, that's the first point. Anything that worked in the Brawl environment might either not work in Smash 4, or just be incredibly broken.

 

[Shollyboster]

I bring them up because the aim of this is to (theoretically) make every character a high tier character, that's why we spent so long trying to figure out how to proceed with Link (he's always either not good enough with how he stands or too good with the buffs he is given, finding a sweetspot for him is difficult). The only reason I say break this rule in this instance is because a move unnecessarily whiffing is not intended to happen and therefore should always be treated as more of a bug fix than a buff.

My final two cents on Link. Do you guys think think it would be a good idea to buff his air speed to 1.0 and his air acceleration to 5.0? Hear me out. I've heard talk about how buffing link's movement would break the character but that would only really be true if you buffed his speed up to sheik levels (and even then his frame data would hold him back a lot).

If you ask better air speed just kills two birds with one stone. You give him a better neutral and keep away game in one fell swoop.

Firstly, yes that dramatic an airspeed increases actually would break Link. He's a slow character and his moves are built around being slow, if we made him even as fast as say Marth, he would be broken, his short high damage strings could potentially become longer high damage strings or just become stupidly easy to land, which takes away from the whole concept of Risk = Reward,

You basically just described pre-patch Bayo. Low risk, high reward. Broken character.

this might be my last post for the week since i'm traveling tomorrow and i'm not sure if i will get internet connection, so these are my final redone thoughts on link's and pit's/pitoo's changes, i think anyone will find these satisfactory and not too overbaord.

link's changes :

• Jab 1: frame 7 > 6.
• Jab 3: damage 5 > 6.
• Dash attack: frame 20 > 15, FAF 57 > 48.
• F-tilt: frame 15 > 12 FAF 38 > 33.
• U-tilt: damage 9 > 10, BKB 30 > 25, FAF 36 > 32, KBG increased all around.
• D-tilt: frame 11 > 8, FAF 29 > 25.
• F-smash: second hit comes out faster so it connects properly.
• N-air: frame 7 > 5, damage 11/9/6 > 12/10/8.
• F-air: frame 14 > 12, FAF 50 > 46, AutoCancel 51 > 47 (now AutoCancels on FullHop).
• U-air: damage 15 > 16, BKB 18 > 20, KBG 88 > 90.
• B-air 2: damage 5 > 7, BKG 70 > 50, KBG 70.
• Run Speed: 1.3944 > 1.43.
• Air Speed: 1.88 > 1.92.
• jumpsquat: frames 7 > 6.

Okay, okay, okay. Guys. I think that a good buff for link would be to give him a really good dash. Not one for run speed, but something that has very good foxtrot ability. I think that extended dash dancing would be good for Link. Think about it. It's a buff only for mind games, because unlike Falcon Link doesn't have a good dash attack. It would be good to give link something to work with for repositioning.

 

[Shollyboster]

This is going in a different post because it's a different topic. Did we ever decide on what to do with Roy? I think that a good thing to do with Roy would be buffing his side smashes so that they compensate for recovery, a la Little Mac. Also, make counter at least viable in the air. I'm talking about 4/5 the time it takes. That seems like a good trade.

Also, make neutral air safer on shield. It's already phenomenal, but he's still widely considered a low tier/bad character.

I also wonder whether we should reduce the landing lag of fair, but does Roy really need it? I think it should be a small change. Perhaps instead of 13 frames of landing lag we give it 12 or 11?

 

[Halcy0n]

Smash 4 isn't Brawl, that's the first point. Anything that worked in the Brawl environment might either not work in Smash 4, or just be incredibly broken.

It only kills 14% sooner.

 

[Eugene Wang]

I keep suggesting giving Roy a working grab game. Nothing fancy, just a more comboable forward and down throw and a killing up throw.

I'm not exactly popular on this thread.

 

[Halcy0n]

I keep suggesting giving Roy a working grab game. Nothing fancy, just a more comboable forward and down throw and a killing up throw.

I'm not exactly popular on this thread.

Can't you tech chase rather easily with roys fthrow?
Also, for uthrow all it needs is a KBG increase of about 15 and angle change from 97 to 93.

 

[Derpnaster]

You basically just described pre-patch Bayo. Low risk, high reward. Broken character.

Okay, okay, okay. Guys. I think that a good buff for link would be to give him a really good dash. Not one for run speed, but something that has very good foxtrot ability. I think that extended dash dancing would be good for Link. Think about it. It's a buff only for mind games, because unlike Falcon Link doesn't have a good dash attack. It would be good to give link something to work with for repositioning.

Link, bad Dash Attack? Sir that thing is godlike! Sure it's a little on the slower side, but a decent hop that dodges low to the ground moves, three different hitboxes that each have kill angles, and a stuipidly powerful tipper that can kill at freaking 50%

Joking aside (Not really I freaking love Link's Dash Smash), giving Link even more tech that we won't use is not really helping him, just giving him more tech. Now if that dash could also help with say covering distance or making his dash/pivot grab better then we have a really good reason to look at it, but otherwise we really have no reason to buff a movement option.

 

[RedMarf78]

Firstly, yes that dramatic an airspeed increases actually would break Link. He's a slow character and his moves are built around being slow, if we made him even as fast as say Marth, he would be broken, his short high damage strings could potentially become longer high damage strings or just become stupidly easy to land, which takes away from the whole concept of Risk = Reward, you're rewarding a Link for throwing out a move or two that now carries less risk than before and has a lot of reward in terms of damage. It's a lot of why Toon Link kills a lot later than Link, he has less risk because he is faster and has faster moves that can combo therefore the devs gave his less overall reward to compensate for him being so freaking safe and easy to combo with.

Same happened to Sheik, she got most of her super reliable kill options taken away and now has to go for less safe and generally speaking more rewarding bouncing fish kills.

Speaking from experience it's a very bad Idea to combine high levels of safety, or even moderate levels of safety, with very high reward and decent speed Look at what happened to Corin, she actually was made SLOWER because she had so much reward from just her air game. However to compensate and bring the entire character together they also changed land speed to better sync with the new slower air speed.

First let me address your comments on Toon link because they're not exactly right. If you look at Tink and Link's aerials Link is the safer character frame and range wise. Toon links tilts have less lag but link can space his much or effectively making them as safe if not safer than Tinks when used properly. Also the bottom of my first post addressed the whole toon link kills later thing. Apart from his smashes and tilts Tink doesn't kill later (the only notable exception is nair). Also you described tink as a combo heavy character but the only combo move he really has is up-tilt (though it is amazing at its job). Link has bair, d-tilt and kind of (late) up tilt. Tink isn't that much safer than link, it's more that he's faster and he doesn't kill later outside of hard reads, their bomb confirms are pretty much on par with each other.

Second the short "high damage" strings you mentioned are basically just back air combos and link's bair only does 7% right now. if he strings two together that's only 14%, lets assume and you also get an up-b that's about 28% total for a combo that works at tight percentages and with bad DI. That's good but realistically the opponent will DI heavily hindering what you can get off back air, you'd probably not be able to hit with spin attack on a DI-ing opponent so that's 14%. Both hits of fair deals 24%. Giving link a better airspeed won't give him bayonetta-esque combos. Not even close.

About the low risk part. Bair is minus 5 on shield and like has a frame 3 spot dodge so the move isn't safe on shield unless spaced and if you space it that makes it even harder to combo with. You'd either commit to the bair and get a decent punish or space it and remain safe while giving up an optimal combo. link's bair would honestly be much closer to medium risk medium reward, you made it sound way better than it actually is.

You seem to think that characters with strong moves need abyssmal mobility to compensate but bowser and charizard beg to differ. Granted link has projectiles but that's why were still leaving him with bad ground movement he'd just have an average airspeed.

Last things, characters need reward off of safe options. If every safe move had very little reward nobody would ever convert of off hits in neutral. And the game would just be much slower. Being able to covert off of safe pressure isn't broken. Bayo was only broken because her conversions could kill you regardless of percent and giving link moderate airspeed would not have that effect. (Sounds a bit like brawl actually)

At this point I'm trying harder to get you to see from my point of view more than I'm trying to get link and airspeed buff.

 

[Swevester]

Aight I'm back, let's see what's up...hmm...I see.

You basically just described pre-patch Bayo. Low risk, high reward. Broken character.

Okay, okay, okay. Guys. I think that a good buff for link would be to give him a really good dash. Not one for run speed, but something that has very good foxtrot ability. I think that extended dash dancing would be good for Link. Think about it. It's a buff only for mind games, because unlike Falcon Link doesn't have a good dash attack. It would be good to give link something to work with for repositioning.

I'm not sure if the "describing pre-patch Bayo" part is directed towards me. I'm quoted but I really didn't mention anything about buffing Link to be like pre-patch Bayo. Anyways, a better foxtrot would be nice. Although I wouldn't consider it a priority.

This is going in a different post because it's a different topic. Did we ever decide on what to do with Roy? I think that a good thing to do with Roy would be buffing his side smashes so that they compensate for recovery, a la Little Mac. Also, make counter at least viable in the air. I'm talking about 4/5 the time it takes. That seems like a good trade.

Also, make neutral air safer on shield. It's already phenomenal, but he's still widely considered a low tier/bad character.

I also wonder whether we should reduce the landing lag of fair, but does Roy really need it? I think it should be a small change. Perhaps instead of 13 frames of landing lag we give it 12 or 11?

Give Roy some autocancel windows. I've noticed a lot of Roy is major rushdown, but he only has two autocancel windows and they're both kind of situational (although the N-Air window is pretty useful as Ryo will never let us forget). But even with the pretty good landing lag on F-Air, I feel like it or U-Air could really use one.

First let me address your comments on Toon link because they're not exactly right. If you look at Tink and Link's aerials Link is the safer character frame and range wise. Toon links tilts have less lag but link can space his much or effectively making them as safe if not safer than Tinks when used properly. Also the bottom of my first post addressed the whole toon link kills later thing. Apart from his smashes and tilts Tink doesn't kill later (the only notable exception is nair). Also you described tink as a combo heavy character but the only combo move he really has is up-tilt (though it is amazing at its job). Link has bair, d-tilt and kind of (late) up tilt. Tink isn't that much safer than link, it's more that he's faster and he doesn't kill later outside of hard reads, their bomb confirms are pretty much on par with each other.

Second the short "high damage" strings you mentioned are basically just back air combos and link's bair only does 7% right now. if he strings two together that's only 14%, lets assume and you also get an up-b that's about 28% total for a combo that works at tight percentages and with bad DI. That's good but realistically the opponent will DI heavily hindering what you can get off back air, you'd probably not be able to hit with spin attack on a DI-ing opponent so that's 14%. Both hits of fair deals 24%. Giving link a better airspeed won't give him bayonetta-esque combos. Not even close.

About the low risk part. Bair is minus 5 on shield and like has a frame 3 spot dodge so the move isn't safe on shield unless spaced and if you space it that makes it even harder to combo with. You'd either commit to the bair and get a decent punish or space it and remain safe while giving up an optimal combo. link's bair would honestly be much closer to medium risk medium reward, you made it sound way better than it actually is.

You seem to think that characters with strong moves need abyssmal mobility to compensate but bowser and charizard beg to differ. Granted link has projectiles but that's why were still leaving him with bad ground movement he'd just have an average airspeed.

Last things, characters need reward off of safe options. If every safe move had very little reward nobody would ever convert of off hits in neutral. And the game would just be much slower. Being able to covert off of safe pressure isn't broken. Bayo was only broken because her conversions could kill you regardless of percent and giving link moderate airspeed would not have that effect. (Sounds a bit like brawl actually)

At this point I'm trying harder to get you to see from my point of view more than I'm trying to get link and airspeed buff.

Neither character trumps one over the other in the combo area, their options are simply different due to the difference in speed and range. I understand the worry as if Link were given too much air speed for no reason, he could probably do some crazy things with his combo-oriented projectiles. I'm definitely not against buffing his air speed, though. There simply needs to be a precise number that acts as an appropriate "sweetspot". Also please tell everyone you come across about the Bomb statement that is highlighted in the quote, because I've met one too many Toon Link mains saying his Bomb confirms are worlds better. Also you're correct about Link's aerials. Frame data-wise, he is superior in every way except for the landing lag on Up Air (=23 =21) but when you consider the difference in air speed, it all looks almost entirely pointless to mention because at least Toon Link has the constant opportunity to hit with them. Sigh...

 

[anas abou]

This is going in a different post because it's a different topic. Did we ever decide on what to do with Roy?

the internet here is pretty good so i'm back, i actually play a decent amount of roy (altough i used to play him more) so i think i have a pretty good idea of what he needs.

Jab : FAF 23 > 20 (better combos, safer on shield).
Dash attack : damage 13/9 > 15/10, FAF 50 > 42 (safer on shield, kills earlier).
U-tilt : FAF 39 > 36 (more so safer on whiff).
F-smash sourspot : BKB 30 > 50 (no wet noodle).
Up-throw : angle 95, KBG 100 > 120. (still worse than marth due to angle and BKB).
N-air 1 : landing lag 11 > 10 (already good just a little extra).
N-air 2 : damage 8.5/5 > 9/6 (damage YAY).
F-air : damage 11/7 > 12/8, landing lag 13 > 12 (for safety, and kill power).
B-air : damage 12/8 > 13/10, landing lag 16 > 15 (same).
U-air : damage 9/6 > 10/8, landing lag 14 > 12 (for better juggling).
D-air :frame 16-17 > 14-16, landing lag 23 > 20 (already good, just not good enough to be used in neutral).
Blazer last hit (air) : KBG 120 > 130 (kills earlier + high, but not as strong as the grounded one due to damage).

the d-tilt angle stuff is unecessary to me since jab basically serves the same purpose, plop up the opponent up for positional advantage and 50/50s, as for marth i'll take hacyl0n's throw changes.

• Marth's Uthrow: Damage 4 -> 5, Angle 93 -> 90
• Marth's Fthrow: Damage 4 -> 5, BKB 100 -> 85
• Marth's Dthrow: BKB 95 -> 80, KBG 50 -> 60
• Marth's Bthrow: Damage 4 -> 5

 

[Frihetsanka]

Got some Marth change's for you:

You do know Marth is likely a top 15 character, right? His tournament results are really good. I think these buffs are a bit too much, you're even buffing his nair and fair, both of which were ranked A in the move ranking thread.

 

[anas abou]

You do know Marth is likely a top 15 character, right? His tournament results are really good. I think these buffs are a bit too much, you're even buffing his nair and fair, both of which were ranked A in the move ranking thread.

yeah he's pretty good, i'd say he's around top 20 give or take, but still he's moreso getting carried by good players tho, i thought his throw changes were pretty good and frankly enough for the most part.

 

[Swevester]

yeah he's pretty good, i'd say he's around top 20 give or take, but still he's moreso getting carried by good players tho, i thought his throw changes were pretty good and frankly enough for the most part.

is fine. After all of the buffs throughout just about every balance patch, he has gotten better and better. However, one character who could start to use some love right about now is . I don't recall mentioning her very often in this thread...

 

[Derpnaster]

Aight I'm back, let's see what's up...hmm...I see.



I'm not sure if the "describing pre-patch Bayo" part is directed towards me. I'm quoted but I really didn't mention anything about buffing Link to be like pre-patch Bayo. Anyways, a better foxtrot would be nice. Although I wouldn't consider it a priority.



Give Roy some autocancel windows. I've noticed a lot of Roy is major rushdown, but he only has two autocancel windows and they're both kind of situational (although the N-Air window is pretty useful as Ryo will never let us forget). But even with the pretty good landing lag on F-Air, I feel like it or U-Air could really use one.



Neither character trumps one over the other in the combo area, their options are simply different due to the difference in speed and range. I understand the worry as if Link were given too much air speed for no reason, he could probably do some crazy things with his combo-oriented projectiles. I'm definitely not against buffing his air speed, though. There simply needs to be a precise number that acts as an appropriate "sweetspot". Also please tell everyone you come across about the Bomb statement that is highlighted in the quote, because I've met one too many Toon Link mains saying his Bomb confirms are worlds better. Also you're correct about Link's aerials. Frame data-wise, he is superior in every way except for the landing lag on Up Air (=23 =21) but when you consider the difference in air speed, it all looks almost entirely pointless to mention because at least Toon Link has the constant opportunity to hit with them. Sigh...

I think the issue is that because Toon Link is faster with almost Identical attacks he is also more safe with his attacks because he can just get out if a move wiffs. A toon Link missing a FAir is still a Toon Link missing a FAir and he is crazy fast compared to Link. If Link Misses a FAir, and I have more than once, it usually results in at least a light punish, if not a hard punish from the faster characters. Honestly the only reason Toon Link is considered the better version of Link has nothing to do with better combos or projectiles, it's entirely to do with him being by nature safer than Link.


On buffing Jiggs. I say we make her even more floaty

 

[Swevester]

I think the issue is that because Toon Link is faster with almost Identical attacks he is also more safe with his attacks because he can just get out if a move wiffs. A toon Link missing a FAir is still a Toon Link missing a FAir and he is crazy fast compared to Link. If Link Misses a FAir, and I have more than once, it usually results in at least a light punish, if not a hard punish from the faster characters. Honestly the only reason Toon Link is considered the better version of Link has nothing to do with better combos or projectiles, it's entirely to do with him being by nature safer than Link.


On buffing Jiggs. I say we make her even more floaty

Hmm...when it's put that way (you're definitely correct), it doesn't seem like such a bad idea to make Link a little better at comboing. I mean...

I just found out that 's up air kills earlier than 's, that's just not okay

it's already been pointed out that Toon Link is on par on in cases like these, superior to Link's power. All we can say Link truly has over Toony is his ability to out-range him with his sword, which is made irrelevant because...like you said...he's faster and much safer. If the buffs we have given him do not fix this (highly unnecessary) inferiority or compensate for it at the very least, there is no reason to believe we have successfully put Link in high tier without overshooting. That means there is a very real chance that we may have to start rethinking Link again...

As for Puff, I want to fix her her grab game (in general) and a few of her aerials, namely Up and Down Air. Down Air could essentially work like Fox's but it doesn't because it's too slow and is pretty easy to get out of (at least to me it is). Up Air seems like an attack that should be able to connect into itself like Meta Knight's Up Air, but it's way too slow to catch up with the foe. It has no KO power, limited range and can't even connect into itself. We have to buff something on it. As for grab game, I want to make one of her throws connect much better into something like F-Air. The obvious choices are Down Throw or Forward Throw.

 

[Derpnaster]

well, what are puff's weaknesses. And which ones are we willing to change?

 

[L9999]

Swevester there is a gif of of a Lavani mod in which he reduces the ending lag of Uair and it allowed for extremely cheap Rest combos. From 0%: Up Tilt, Uair, Rest, gg. Just throwing it out there.

 

[Swevester]

I'm going to put this as another post instead of an edit so that people may use it as an easy way to source and quote it. This will be the easiest way to see if there is something we may have missed, or if we are truly done with Link.

Link:
Jab 1: Frame 7-8, FAF 28, BKB 35/30, KBG 37, Damage 2.5%.
Jab 2: Frame 6-7, FAF 21, BKB 38, KBG 10, Damage 2.5%.
Jab 3: Frame 6-10, FAF 37, BKB 70, KBG 50, Damage 5%.
F-Tilt: Frame 15-19, FAF 38, BKB 55, KBG 82, Damage 13%
U-Tilt: Frame 8-12, FAF 36, BKB 30, KBG 122/130/123/134, Damage 9%.
D-Tilt: Frame 11-12, FAF 29, BKB 0/90, KBG 62/30, Damage 11%.
Dash A.: Frame 20-23, FAF 57, BKB 70/85/85, KBG 85/85/87, Damage 14%/13%/12%.
F-Smash1: Frame 15-16, FAF 52, BKB 37/40/37. KBG 15/100/15, Damage 7%/14%/7%.
F-Smash2: Frame 12-13, FAF 68, BKB 85, KBG 89, Damage 13%/12%.
U-Smash1: Frame 10-13 (14-15), FAF 78, BKB w55/28/38/65 (w55/38/45/65), KBG 100, Damage 4%.
U-Smash2: Frame 25-28 (29-30), FAF ^, BKB ^ (w55/38/40/65), KBG ^, Damage 3%.
U-Smash3: Frame 41-45, FAF ^, BKB 60, KBG 96, Damage 11%/10%/9%.
D-Smash1: Frame 9-10, FAF 50, BKB 40, KBG 88, Damage 14%/16%/17%.
D-Smash2: Frame 21-22, FAF ^, BKB 40, KBG 88, Damage 12%/11%/10%.
S.Grab: Frame 12-17, FAF 62.
D.Grab: Frame 14-21, FAF 66.
P.Grab: Frame 15-22, FAF 67.
F-Throw: BKB 50, KBG 120, Damage 7% total.
B-Throw: BKB 50, KBG 110, Damage 7% total.
U-Throw: BKB 24, KBG 230, Damage 7%/6% total.
D-Throw: BKB 60, KBG 85, Damage 6% total.
N-Air: Frame 7-8 (9-31), FAF 39, BKB 22 (15), KBG 100, Landing Lag 10, Autocancel 1-3 36>, Damage 11%/9% (6%).
F-Air1: Frame 14-15, FAF 50, BKB 20, KBG 130, Landing Lag 12, Autocancel 51>, Damage 11%.
F-Air2: Frame 26-27, FAF ^, BKB 30, KBG 100, Landing Lag ^, Autocancel ^, Damage 13%.
B-Air1: Frame 6-8, FAF 31, BKB w40, KBG 100, Landing Lag 10, Autocancel 29>, Damage 3%.
B-Air2: Frame 18-22, FAF ^, BKB 70, KBG 70, Landing Lag ^, Auotcancel ^, Damage 5%.
U-Air: Frame 11-13 (14-40), FAF 60, BKB 18, KBG 88, Landing Lag 23, Autocancel 1-10 47>, Damage 15% (13%).
D-AirE: Frame 14-17, FAF 80, BKB 30/25, KBG 80/40, Landing Lag 32, Autocancel 1-9 65>, Damage 15%.
D-Air: Frame 18-20 (21-64), FAF ^, BKB 30, KBG 80, Landing Lag ^, Autocancel ^, Damage 18% (15%).
Z-Air1: Frame 12-21, FAF 60, BKB 50, KBG 30, Landing Lag 8, Autocancel -, Damage 2.5%.
Z-Air2: Frame 22-23, FAF ^, BKB 45, KBG 50, Landing Lag ^, Autocancel ^, Damage 4%.
NSpec: Frame 18-54 (charging), FAF 47, BKB 10, KBG 66, Damage 5%-12%.
SSpec: Frame 27-35 (36-63) FAF 46, BKB 80 (60), KBG 40, Damage 7% (5%).
SSpecL: Frame 64-, FAF ^, BKB w60, KBG 100, Damage 0%.
USpec: Frame 8-9 (10-1415-24 25-40), FAF 82, BKB 60 (48 20) KBG 86 (84 82) Damage 14%/11.2%.
DSpec: Frame 17 (generated), FAF 40, Explodes On 220.

Key:
W - attack is based on weight.
Blue - these stats effect aerial foes only.
Red - these stats effect grounded foes only.
() - stats of the late part of the attack.

Source: Kurogane Hammer.

Swevester there is a gif of of a Lavani mod in which he reduces the ending lag of Uair and it allowed for extremely cheap Rest combos. From 0%: Up Tilt, Uair, Rest, gg. Just throwing it out there.

I see...then perhaps the way to go would be to make it stronger for late KOs? Or we can try to find a good number between where it is now and the number that lets it get easy Rest combos.

Edit: If it doesn't have a lingering hitbox, her Up Air could be made to be an excellent anti-air option by rearranging it's startup and active hitboxes. That's a pretty good idea that doesn't KO at 0%.

 

[Shollyboster]

Joking aside (Not really I freaking love Link's Dash Smash), giving Link even more tech that we won't use is not really helping him,

"We won't use?" Does nobody apply extended dash dancing? C. Falcon is amazing if you implement it. #smh

 

[Halcy0n]

You do know Marth is likely a top 15 character, right? His tournament results are really good. I think these buffs are a bit too much, you're even buffing his nair and fair, both of which were ranked A in the move ranking thread.

Okay good point. I just looked at the move ranking thread and saw some good points about some moves I wanted to buff so I made some changes:

• Marth's Uthrow: Damage 4 -> 5, Angle 93 -> 90 Reason: Kills a bit earlier.
  
• Marth's Fthrow: Damage 4 -> 5, BKB 100 -> 85 Reason: Gives it a bit more use at low percents.
  
• Marth's Dthrow: BKB 95 -> 80, KBG 50 -> 60 Reason: Easier to combo with.
  
• Marth's Bthrow: Damage 4 -> 5 Reason: Not sure what to do with this one so I just improved the damage.

• Marth's Dolphin Slash (Early Hit): KBG 74 -> 64, Damage 11 -> 13, Landing lag during freefall/helpless 20 > 25 frames. Reason: Increase to damage makes it better OoS option, and reduced KBG should make kill at the same percent. The landing lag increase makes it more unsafe to whiff.

• Marth's Fair: Autocancel window: 36> to 34> Reason: Frame 34 of Marth's Fair looks to be humanly possible to autocancel with. Landing Lag 16 -> 15 Reason: Like a non L cancel in melee.
  
• Marth's Bair: FAF 40 -> 38 Reason: Just lets Marth act quicker.
  
• Marth's Dair: (spike): BKB 20 -> 25 Reason: Just a bit more reward for hitting the spike.

• Undo the shield damage nerf for the tipper only Reason: More reward fro getting the tipper.
• Counter's quotes brought back Reason: They're in sound test so why doesn't he use them?

 

[Derpnaster]

"We won't use?" Does nobody apply extended dash dancing? C. Falcon is amazing if you implement it. #smh

Considering that I have yet to see even the to 15 in Utah (Just fought #15 last week, he was very fun to fight though I did nothing but go for Greninja Down Taunt Combos, got Five of 'em and it was glorious) I think I can safely say no, strong fundamental play tends to outclass strong technical play quite regularly.

 

[Swevester]

Considering that I have yet to see even the to 15 in Utah (Just fought #15 last week, he was very fun to fight though I did nothing but go for Greninja Down Taunt Combos, got Five of 'em and it was glorious) I think I can safely say no, strong fundamental play tends to outclass strong technical play quite regularly.

This is correct, if you notice a lot of the top characters have pretty basic fundamentals: combo the ever-loving s*** out of your foe because you're too fast for them and everything connects so perfectly (,,, ). Of course gaining a new tech or improving on a subpar one is nice, but it offers very little because technical options reek just about the same reward that basic fundamentals do, except they're more difficult to pull off and must be used in situations that call upon them.The one thing tech skills have over the basics is that they're WAY cooler to pull off and are crazy hype sometimes. And if we're being honest, with the buffs on Link that have already been brought up, his tech game with his projectiles would be greatly improved anyway.

 

[Derpnaster]

This is correct, if you notice a lot of the top characters have pretty basic fundamentals: combo the ever-loving s*** out of your foe because you're too fast for them and everything connects so perfectly (,,, ). Of course gaining a new tech or improving on a subpar one is nice, but it offers very little because technical options reek just about the same reward that basic fundamentals do, except they're more difficult to pull off and must be used in situations that call upon them.The one thing tech skills have over the basics is that they're WAY cooler to pull off and are crazy hype sometimes. And if we're being honest, with the buffs on Link that have already been brought up, his tech game with his projectiles would be greatly improved anyway.

Don't forget that every top/high tier character has outstanding spacing, escape, defensive, and neutral options. the only thing in which they lack as a whole is strong projectile games.

Having tech is just a natural result of how the game is coded, it's not really our job to add more to it or to give some techs to every character.

 

[Swevester]

Don't forget that every top/high tier character has outstanding spacing, escape, defensive, and neutral options. the only thing in which they lack as a whole is strong projectile games.

Having tech is just a natural result of how the game is coded, it's not really our job to add more to it or to give some techs to every character.

Actually a lot of the tops have decent projectile games, their biggest issue is always that they die at like 50%. Which doesn't matter when you can't hit them, which only furthers exemplifies why they are top tier.

 

[Derpnaster]

Actually a lot of the tops have decent projectile games, their biggest issue is always that they die at like 50%. Which doesn't matter when you can't hit them, which only furthers exemplifies why they are top tier.

Of the five or so in high/top tier I'd only say that Mario has a truly reliable projectile. The others have either situational, or in the case of Blade Beam (And yes I am prepared for the maelstrom of hate I will get for what I'm about to say) almost entirely pointless. Blade Beam's one saving grace is that it has a Limit Break Version. Otherwise it is at best an annoyance at worst it can even save a recovering target because it's knockback is just that bad.

But agree to disagree there we can still agree for whatever reason they are still considered the best characters in the game because what they have as far as tools works better in thee overall metagame than any other character

 

[Swevester]

Of the five or so in high/top tier I'd only say that Mario has a truly reliable projectile. The others have either situational, or in the case of Blade Beam (And yes I am prepared for the maelstrom of hate I will get for what I'm about to say) almost entirely pointless. Blade Beam's one saving grace is that it has a Limit Break Version. Otherwise it is at best an annoyance at worst it can even save a recovering target because it's knockback is just that bad.

But agree to disagree there we can still agree for whatever reason they are still considered the best characters in the game because what they have as far as tools works better in thee overall metagame than any other character

Well 's Needle Storm had some very good usage, to the point to where they had to nerf it's range...but you're right, the tops just have the best tools anyways. Plus, it's getting kind of off topic. Which character do we focus on, or is it still ? We need to get some Puff mains in this thread.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

well, what are puff's weaknesses. And which ones are we willing to change?

Some people have mentioned about buffing Rest, but that doesn't change the fact that you need to get lucky with the random Star KOs. If a Star KO doesn't happen, you're pretty much wide open for a revenge strike.

Truthfully, there's not too much that can be done to help Jigglypuff, outside of improving the strength of some of its attacks, along with an air speed increase, and even reducing the landing lag whenever the d-air gets used.

I would've also said a weight increase, but Jigglypuff should not got higher than 70 for its weight value.