Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[Emblem Lord]

i said "he doesn't have a great neutral game" so why are you telling me "Ryu's neutral is average at best" you illiterate ****, you are basically agreeing with me, besides ryu's great punish game means he can't be lower than high tier, and i don't believe high tiers need buffs.

Insult me again, I get a mod.

The 58 frames on hadouken conflict with what Ryu is supposed to be using it for. A mid range poke, but with that data its not safe at all. Nor is it very rewarding or threatening. Functionality is what should be the goal. Hadouken lacks this and the 58 frames is a huge part of that.

 

[anas abou]

The 58 frames on hadouken conflict with what Ryu is supposed to be using it for. A mid range poke, but with that data its not safe at all. Nor is it very rewarding or threatening. Functionality is what should be the goal. Hadouken lacks this and the 58 frames is a huge part of that.

but i never said hadouken was good , here's what happened.

me : ryu doesn't have a good neutral but his punish game makes up for it so he doesn't need buffs.
you : no ryu has a bad neutral game his hadouken has a 58 FAF.
me : yes that's what i said, you are agreeing with me.
you: 58 FAF IS SO BAD, his neutral SUCKS.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You are completely focused on the wrong thing.

This is what I am saying.

Hadouken is a poor tool. Tools should be useful. Useful tools are good game design.

And that's it.

But since you wish to focus on his punish game then I will say his punish game is no where near what you are making it out to be. His best punishes come from focus attack which at high level play, isn't really a factor. We are at a point in the meta where people understand the counter play to that option.

 

[anas abou]

You are completely focused on the wrong thing.

This is what I am saying.

Hadouken is a poor tool. Tools should be useful. Useful tools are good game design.

And that's it.

But since you wish to focus on his punish game then I will say his punish game is no where near what you are making it out to be. His best punishes come from focus attack which at high level play, isn't really a factor. We are at a point in the meta where people understand the counter play to that option.

babypokemonarecool

 

[Tocaraca2]

babypokemonarecool

Did you let your little sister get onto your computer again?

 

[anas abou]

Did you let your little sister get onto your computer again?

that's what i say when i don't want to argue anymore, i'm weird.

 

[Combo Wombo]

Really no one above C tier needs to be buffed. 58 frames means it just isn't a spammable projectile. Not every move has to be useful. Plus the knockback makes up for something. Falco's Blaster has 59 FAF with less knockback than Hadouken. And Ryu can't be punished as hard because he isn't a fastfaller.

 

[MarioMeteor]

You say he is one of the best?

How? Show me. Which top tiers does he beat? What characters are relevant that he has a good record against at high level.

I really hope you're being rhetorical, because if you honestly need me to tell you how Ryu is good, then I'm wasting my time.

Stop looking at Ryu in a vacuum and look at how he interacts with the cast.

You mean killing them at 60% with a move that can be comboed into easily? Or doing more damage in two hits than most characters do in a whole combo? Yes, these sound like the interactions of a character that should be buffed.

Don't you realize how busted Ryu would be if he had a good neutral? It's called a weakness, and it's essential for a concept called balance.

 

[wedl!!]

I really hope you're being rhetorical, because if you honestly need me to tell you how Ryu is good, then I'm wasting my time.

Man, this whole sentence really elevates you to unforeseen levels of holier than thou insight.

Especially considering Emblem Lord is, you know, a Ryu main.

You mean killing them at 60% with a move that can be comboed into easily? Or doing more damage in two hits than most characters do in a whole combo? Yes, these sound like the interactions of a character that should be buffed.

Meaningless hyperbole. Shouldn't have to explain why this paragraph is useless.

Don't you realize how busted Ryu would be if he had a good neutral? It's called a weakness, and it's essential for a concept called balance.

Since when has Emblem Lord been advocating for Ryu buffs? He's asking you to try to understand Ryu's weaknesses and why he's not a top tier. Never said anything about changing him.

 

[anas abou]

Especially considering Emblem Lord is, you know, a Ryu main..

people tend to underrate their mains.

 

[William5000000]

The problem with the upward KO stuff is that after a character has gone off the top, there's a random chance when his stock is actually taken. What should happen is that the stock is taken when they hit the blast zone, and that all KOs are star/screen KOs and they die before the KO animation rather than after it. This means that the respawn time would have to be increased so they they don't respawn before the animation finishes.
This means that Jigglypuff cannot get punished after a Rest kill, and that she never loses in a last-stock situation where she rests someone off-stage.

A stock that gets taken away the instant the Star KO/Screen KO animation begins? That's actually not a bad idea. This can work. Same with Ness' PK Thunder 2 off-stage. I'm definitely updating my idea on my thread (and others) for this!

 

[Halcy0n]

This is probability the worse idea yet, but I think every single character should just get qol buff.

Is this a bad idea?


Also this may go against what I've said before.

 

[Zerp]

This is probability the worse idea yet, but I think every single character should just get qol buff.

Is this a bad idea?


Also this may go against what I've said before.

Personally, I think it depends, is every character getting the same amount of benefit from it? Because if everyone gets the same level of quality of life buffs, then nothing will change because Jigglypuff will still suck relative to the top character who also got buffs equal in value, all that will be different is how powerful the characters are in general, not how balanced they are. Maybe if everyone got buffs, but the top characters got minor improvements while the bottom part of the cast get a much larger amount of improvements it'd work. That's just my opinion though, don't take it as a fact.

 

[anas abou]

Personally, I think it depends, is every character getting the same amount of benefit from it? Because if everyone gets the same level of quality of life buffs, then nothing will change because Jigglypuff will still suck relative to the top character who also got buffs equal in value, all that will be different is how powerful the characters are in general, not how balanced they are. Maybe if everyone got buffs, but the top characters got minor improvements while the bottom part of the cast get a much larger amount of improvements it'd work. That's just my opinion though, don't take it as a fact.

if this is an unofficial balance patch and not a star KO mod then why does it constitute 30% of this thread

 

[Combo Wombo]

For Falco: Decrease grounded and aerial laser lag
decrease kbg of down throw
increase kb of uair
increase weight

 

[anas abou]

For Falco: Decrease grounded and aerial laser lag
decrease kbg of down throw
increase kb of uair
increase weight

the first change i agree with, but he needs movement speed more than weight, down-throw combos or juggling.

 

[Combo Wombo]

I think that's how he's meant to be played though. A pretty slow and pretty strong character. He could also use a larger hit box on nair since even though it comes out on frame 3 it can't break combos because of how high up the hit box is. His dsmash sour spot ought to be a sweet spot and shrunk

 

[anas abou]

I think that's how he's meant to be played though. A pretty slow and pretty strong character. He could also use a larger hit box on nair since even though it comes out on frame 3 it can't break combos because of how high up the hit box is. His dsmash sour spot ought to be a sweet spot and shrunk

falco is not the "the slow and strong" archetype, he's a featherweight, and he doesn't hit very hard, in previous games he was a projectile-zoner due to how strong SH laser was but that made him very annoying, he also had a devastating punish game with his melee combos and brawl chain-grab, all that was removed, so now he has a decent punish game but his neutral is bad, he needs speed to be more viable in neutral.

 

[Combo Wombo]

falco is not the "the slow and strong" archetype, he's a featherweight, and he doesn't hit very hard, in previous games he was a projectile-zoner due to how strong SH laser was but that made him very annoying, he also had a devastating punish game with his melee combos and brawl chain-grab, all that was removed, so now he has a decent punish game but his neutral is bad, he needs speed to be more viable in neutral.

We don't need another Fox

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

We don't need another Fox

Falco doesn't necessarily have to be as fast as Fox though. He could always receive speed buffs, and still be slower than Fox in all the mobility categories.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That would still make him very much like Fox in playstyle overall I'd think though. A few key differences perhaps but still annoying close. It would work but I don't think it would be interesting.

I'd be interested to see what could be done to make Falco more viable without boosting his speed/giving him SH double lasers. Basically a slower character with a meh-but-usable projectile that works for both super long range harassment and combo finishers, and a reflector that keeps him safe from slower counter projectile games. But once he actually got in he could wrack up the damage and beat out a lot of characters in CQC.

Super spitball level stuff her but I'm thinking like, the laser doing significantly more damage at close range + more hitstun + a little bit less cooldown (not spamable, but if hit by a laser up close as a combo finisher you're left in a 50/50 in some cases). Jab comboing into tilts, with Ftilt setting up forced tech/untechable spiral situations, Utilt setting up for air combos/air 50/50s at higher percents, Dtilt having a trip chance to set up for more.

Beyond that, fix up Usmash more so it hits consistently. Do something with that Dair as well, its almost-but-not-quite good. Just needs less cooldown really and then you could probably look at it being a part of some low % combos.

If you had to go for speed buffs, I'd say look at aerial mobility buffs instead of ground buffs. Just to try to make him more different from Fox and because well... he's a bird. Birds should be good in the air? And in either case, give his poor recovery options some love. Let his Side B be the "stronger but less distance" version for the two spacies (boost the meteor effect, slightly longer range), and then let his Up B be the "weaker but longer distance" one.

 

[Combo Wombo]

Super spitball level stuff her but I'm thinking like, the laser doing significantly more damage at close range + more hitstun + a little bit less cooldown (not spamable, but if hit by a laser up close as a combo finisher you're left in a 50/50 in some cases). Jab comboing into tilts, with Ftilt setting up forced tech/untechable spiral situations, Utilt setting up for air combos/air 50/50s at higher percents, Dtilt having a trip chance to set up for more.

Beyond that, fix up Usmash more so it hits consistently. Do something with that Dair as well, its almost-but-not-quite good. Just needs less cooldown really and then you could probably look at it being a part of some low % combos.

If you had to go for speed buffs, I'd say look at aerial mobility buffs instead of ground buffs. Just to try to make him more different from Fox and because well... he's a bird. Birds should be good in the air? And in either case, give his poor recovery options some love. Let his Side B be the "stronger but less distance" version for the two spacies (boost the meteor effect, slightly longer range), and then let his Up B be the "weaker but longer distance" one.

Lotta stuff. Here I go.

I agree with faster lasers but that's about it. He has a multijab, so idk about it comboing into tilts, especially since it's so easy to escape. Ok with the ftilt thing ? Utilt already does that. Dtilt is arguably his best combo starter. It substitutes for d throw at low percents and substitutes for u throw at high percents. It launches at an upward angle so unless it has crazy hitstun tripping would be useless. U smash is one of his easiest moves to land since both hits have substantial knockback. If anything comboed into dair he would be darn near broken. His recovery is fine. Side b is easy to spike with and you can glide with his up b. He also has the highest jump in the game(aside from jump shulk). You're just flipping his side and up Bs since his side b hoes farther than fox's and can combo into an uair b.

Maybe make his jab cancellable faster, increase uair knockback, sllllightly decrease dair knockback, and increase shine's chance for tripping and decrease endlag.

 

[anas abou]

That would still make him very much like Fox in playstyle overall I'd think though. A few key differences perhaps but still annoying close. It would work but I don't think it would be interesting.

I'd be interested to see what could be done to make Falco more viable without boosting his speed/giving him SH double lasers. Basically a slower character with a meh-but-usable projectile that works for both super long range harassment and combo finishers, and a reflector that keeps him safe from slower counter projectile games. But once he actually got in he could wrack up the damage and beat out a lot of characters in CQC.

Super spitball level stuff her but I'm thinking like, the laser doing significantly more damage at close range + more hitstun + a little bit less cooldown (not spamable, but if hit by a laser up close as a combo finisher you're left in a 50/50 in some cases). Jab comboing into tilts, with Ftilt setting up forced tech/untechable spiral situations, Utilt setting up for air combos/air 50/50s at higher percents, Dtilt having a trip chance to set up for more.

Beyond that, fix up Usmash more so it hits consistently. Do something with that Dair as well, its almost-but-not-quite good. Just needs less cooldown really and then you could probably look at it being a part of some low % combos.

If you had to go for speed buffs, I'd say look at aerial mobility buffs instead of ground buffs. Just to try to make him more different from Fox and because well... he's a bird. Birds should be good in the air? And in either case, give his poor recovery options some love. Let his Side B be the "stronger but less distance" version for the two spacies (boost the meteor effect, slightly longer range), and then let his Up B be the "weaker but longer distance" one.

f-tilt > laser jab-lock > up-smash, that would be a nice string.
but overall falco has a pretty good combo game as he usually converts around 25% everytime he wins neutral, he also has a pretty consistent kill 50/50.
his problem is that he has difficulty winning neutral, this could be fixed by :

1. improving his already decent frame data on his normals.
2. giving him an equivalent to SH laser from previous games.
3. improving his mobility.

the 3rd option makes the most sense to me, but you could do something novel like give him a lagless side-B, falco already kinda plays like a slower fox with some distinctions, i feel this is what he needs

• Dash Speed : 1.472 > 1.572
• Air Speed : 0.93 > 1
• blaster : faster travel speed, shorter time between shots, FAF 59 > 49 (ground) 50 > 40 (air)

 

[randomtechguy142857]

with Ftilt setting up forced tech/untechable spiral situations,

On that note, I have an unrelated question. Will this patch affect gameplay physics or only characters? When BSD released the untechable spin animation video the response was overall clearly negative, making it logical for the spin animation to be patched in the Fan Patch. Would this be done, and if so, how? Maybe make it so that only moves above a certain angle set up the untechable spiral, or make it so that it never occurs or at least isn't random?

 

[anas abou]

On that note, I have an unrelated question. Will this patch affect gameplay physics or only characters? When BSD released the untechable spin animation video the response was overall clearly negative, making it logical for the spin animation to be patched in the Fan Patch. Would this be done, and if so, how? Maybe make it so that only moves above a certain angle set up the untechable spiral, or make it so that it never occurs or at least isn't random?

The untechable spin animation is part of the meta now, it allows for characters like fox or pikachu a lot of safe kills and removing it will be a big albeit indirect nerf.

 

[Combo Wombo]

The untechable spin animation is part of the meta now, it allows for characters like fox or pikachu a lot of safe kills and removing it will be a big albeit indirect nerf.

I get what you're saying but Pikachu and fox are top tiers. I think it would be okay.

 

[anas abou]

I get what you're saying but Pikachu and fox are top tiers. I think it would be okay.

no, low-tiers like samus and roy also benefit from it, pikachu would pretty much suck without it since d-tilt and f-throw setups are his bread and butter.

 

[Combo Wombo]

lol I don't know how Pikachu works. That being said, no one has talked about indirect buffs and game mechanics in general. What if getting hit charged up chargeable projectile like cloud's limit? What if rage was way increased? What if Jiggs was viable?

 

[randomtechguy142857]

no, low-tiers like samus and roy also benefit from it, pikachu would pretty much suck without it since d-tilt and f-throw setups are his bread and butter.

Pikachu wouldn't be that bad. Do remember that the untechaspin only occurs past 100% and at that point Pikachu's going for uthrow-thunder.

 

[Sethtar]

Almost all the buffs are really nice, a lot of the low end characters look like they could actually be good now. I saw the red coloring on Diddy's buffs so i'm assuming that's being removed. As for Cloud I don't think he should be buffed at all since he's already a top tier. Mewtwo probably wouldn't need the buff either since he's top tier but he's not as dominant as Diddy and Cloud. As for everything else it's great, all those characters buffs look helpful and important.

 

[Combo Wombo]

How about increasing the percent that cloud gains limit to 150%?

 

[Combo Wombo]

Why must this thread die

 

[FalKoopa]

Why must this thread die

Happens sometimes.
Anyway, don't bump old threads.

KingJigglypuff
If you're still working on this and want it to stay open, shoot me a PM.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

First of all, I would like to deeply apologize for the virtually nonexistent progress that has been made with this project, but I have my reasons.

I believe it was a week or so after I first revealed my Patch 1.1.7 project, I was approached by @valakmtnsmash4 to join a project called Sm4sh Remix (lead by @Felicia ✂) due to my vast experience with the current state of Sm4sh moveset editing. Later on, Patch 1.1.7 was "merged" into what is now know as Sm4sh Remix, and I have put my efforts and work into it ever since.

Unlike Patch 1.1.7, Sm4sh Remix has had a lot of time in the making (I think it started development before I revealed Patch 1.1.7, and I had yet to know about Sm4sh Remix), as I'll admit I revealed Patch 1.1.7 way too early. I'll have to also admit I didn't know what I was doing at the time. I like Sm4sh, but it has so many glaring issues I wanted to fix, but putting out a half-assed, non-researched, non-tested build with a few characters thrown in, and submitted by a "Literally Who" was not the way to go. So now, Patch 1.1.7 has since moved on in favor of Sm4sh Remix, but it will continue to live its legacy.

You can read more about Sm4sh Remix (and even download its current progress) by going to the following thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/sm4sh-remix-a-competitive-smash-4-mod.445012/

We even have a Twitter handle if you wanna give us a follow: https://twitter.com/Sm4shRemix

I apologize for this sudden announcement, but I hope this makes up for all the silence.

 

[YourAverageLink]

I found a glitch with zard's down tilt. The wind boxes will apply to you too, dashing gets slowed by a lot if you dash immediately, if you shield you will slide back, same with jumping. Repeatedly using down tilt will make you slide forward.

 

[KingJigglypuff]

I found a glitch with zard's down tilt. The wind boxes will apply to you too, dashing gets slowed by a lot if you dash immediately, if you shield you will slide back, same with jumping. Repeatedly using down tilt will make you slide forward.

I'm sorry, but this project is long dead (meaning it won't be updated), so any issues present with the current build will not be addressed.

The post explaining the situation is above your post.

 

[Bob]

I'm sorry, but this project is long dead (meaning it won't be updated), so any issues present with the current build will not be addressed.

The post explaining the situation is above your post.

You made a big mistake. Sm4sh Remix isn't relevant, this was.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I wonder how many people would support this were it to be revived.

 

[Bob]

I wonder how many people would support this were it to be revived.

Well, the name would have to be changed to 1.1.8, but I believe it would likely regain it's old popularity. King Jigglypuff acted impulsively by joining Sm4shRemix. Besides, to most of the Sm4sh community, a balance patch would be much preferred over an "overhaul".

 

[KingJigglypuff]

King Jigglypuff acted impulsively by joining Sm4shRemix.

It wasn't an impulse, I can tell you that. The previously known Patch 1.1.7 wasn't getting frequent updates, alongside this, I made the awful choice of allowing people to suggest changes, which resulted in waves of "buff my main" posts (it's safe to say at least 75% of this thread is just that), which is fine, but I feel it could have been better managed. A great majority of changes weren't that great as well. Quite a few of them got a lot of well-deserved flak.

Speaking of management, there was none, as in the beginning I was the only person behind this fan patch. Later on, I had a small handful of people join me, but ironically enough, all of these people were a part of Sm4sh Remix.

For the most part, I actually regret making this fan patch in the first place. It wasn't researched, it wasn't internally tested enough, had a handful of character changes thrown together, and it was revealed way too early. Not to mention the sheer entitlement some people had in this thread..

I joined Sm4sh Remix because it was better managed, and had more people working on it, meaning a higher quality project. We also had the same goals in mind. I'm not saying every change will be met with open arms, it's just I feel Sm4sh Remix would be more well-received than this half-assed one man project.

Though just because I made and canceled this fan patch, that doesn't mean no one else can try it on their own. Just make sure to learn the mistakes made in this thread to minimize the amount of backlash.