Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[Arthur97]

Well, they did get Bayonetta and Diddy.

 

[MarioMeteor]

ROB nerfs? What's next, Toon Link nerfs? Let's stick with buffing, chances are Nintendo will nerf any character that proves to be too overpowered anyway (though this could be wishful thinking on my part).

And that's why it took till 1.15 to do something about Sheik, right? Leaving the balancing to Nintendo is the exact reason why we're all here.

 

[Arthur97]

Really, I kinda wish they'd fix R.O.B.'s eyes. Don't suppose you can do that?

 

[Frihetsanka]

And that's why it took till 1.15 to do something about Sheik, right? Leaving the balancing to Nintendo is the exact reason why we're all here.

Leave the nerfing to Nintendo. If Cloud/Diddy Kong/Sheik/Zero Suit Samus/Rosalina & Luma/Fox/whichever other character is really so overpowered that we should nerf them/one of them in a fan patch, then it seems fairly likely that Nintendo will eventually nerf them. Sheik was nerfed, after all.

Why do you want nerfs? Are your friends spamming OP characters? If so, then chances are they won't react well to nerfs anyway. If you want nerfs because it's a character you'd like to play more but you feel they're a bit cheesy at the moment, then sure, I understand why you might want nerfs (I kind of feel that way about Cloud). In any case, unless the OP says otherwise, he's not looking to nerf characters that aren't all that overpowered. The example he gave was Bayonetta. Granted, he did end up nerfing Cloud a bit (and suggesting buffs for Diddy Kong, so I suppose we can't use those initial changes as much evidence) so I suppose he might end up nerfing some of the top characters (although I hope he won't). Is there any character right now that is as OP as Bayonetta?

 

[Derpnaster]

Post 1.1.6 even Bayo isn't as OP as Bayo.

Though I should mention that Smash 4 is the first time in smash that every character, even Jigglypuff, is viable. Sure there are "better" characters, but that is only because they require less effort than the "worse" characters to win.

 

[NapTime_]

Post 1.1.6 even Bayo isn't as OP as Bayo.

Though I should mention that Smash 4 is the first time in smash that every character, even Jigglypuff, is viable. Sure there are "better" characters, but that is only because they require less effort than the "worse" characters to win.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Leave the nerfing to Nintendo. If Cloud/Diddy Kong/Sheik/Zero Suit Samus/Rosalina & Luma/Fox/whichever other character is really so overpowered that we should nerf them/one of them in a fan patch, then it seems fairly likely that Nintendo will eventually nerf them. Sheik was nerfed, after all.

Why do you want nerfs? Are your friends spamming OP characters? If so, then chances are they won't react well to nerfs anyway. If you want nerfs because it's a character you'd like to play more but you feel they're a bit cheesy at the moment, then sure, I understand why you might want nerfs (I kind of feel that way about Cloud). In any case, unless the OP says otherwise, he's not looking to nerf characters that aren't all that overpowered. The example he gave was Bayonetta. Granted, he did end up nerfing Cloud a bit (and suggesting buffs for Diddy Kong, so I suppose we can't use those initial changes as much evidence) so I suppose he might end up nerfing some of the top characters (although I hope he won't). Is there any character right now that is as OP as Bayonetta?

Did I say anyone needed a nerf? No. I wouldn't shed any tears if Sheik or Zero Suit Samus got shot a few more times with the Nerf Gun, though.

 

[Radical Larry]

Didn't Diddy come full circle since everyone else got nerfed?
He literally went from second best, to best, to not even top 20 to now tied for 1st with Cloud the Clod.

Did I say anyone needed a nerf? No. I wouldn't shed any tears if Sheik or Zero Suit Samus got shot a few more times with the Nerf Gun, though.

Spoiler: Zero Suit Samus's New Gun Model

 

[Mr Snak3_]

To be serious I'd buff Falco's dair to a spike and have his reflector have a hitbox as it returns

 

[Frihetsanka]

Post 1.1.6 even Bayo isn't as OP as Bayo.

Yeah. Is anyone right now at the level of Bayonetta, old Sheik, or old Diddy Kong? Probably not (Cloud and Ryu could maybe come close, but Ryu is less of an issue since he's really hard to play, thus making him less of an issue for the majority of players, and Cloud already got some nerfs).

Did I say anyone needed a nerf? No. I wouldn't shed any tears if Sheik or Zero Suit Samus got shot a few more times with the Nerf Gun, though.

If Nintendo wants them nerfed, they'll get nerfed, I suppose. I don't think any of them are OP enough to warrant nerfs in the fan patch though, given the issues with nerfing (then again, I wouldn't implement nerfs for old Bayonetta either since it'd leave me at a disadvantage in tournaments if I were used to practising against a nerfed Bayonetta).

Didn't Diddy come full circle since everyone else got nerfed?
He literally went from second best, to best, to not even top 20 to now tied for 1st with Cloud the Clod.

People have a tendency to exaggerate nerfs, which is one of the issues with having nerfs in this patch. People might get seriously upset if something they play is nerfed, even if the nerf isn't bad. What are the practical reasons for people wanting nerfs in this patch, anyway? How would nerfs make this patch better?

 

[JosePollo]

To be serious I'd buff Falco's dair to a spike and have his reflector have a hitbox as it returns

Considering the character, I'd do something ridiculous like:

Spoiler: Return of the Dair

• IASA: frame 52 → 48
• Auto-cancel: 1-3, then starting frame 38 → 1-11, then starting frame 31
  • Auto-cancels from a short hop (you'd have to buffer it out of jumpsquat since you'd have to be almost frame-perfect with it); with changes to active frames that's FOUR frames of cooldown for the auto-cancel.
• Landing lag: 23 → 20 frames
• Active frames: 16-30 (16-19, 20-30) → 12-26 (12-13, 14-17, 18-26)
• Angle:
  • 12-13, 14-17, aerial: 285° → 290°
  • 14-17, grounded: 361 → 80°
    
  • 18-26, aerial: 285° → 0°
    • Goes from having only four spike frames, to being a spike throughout on aerial opponents.
  • 18-26, grounded: 361° → 80°
• Damage:
  • 12-13: 13.0% → 14.0%
  • 14-17: 11.0%
  • 18-26, aerial: 8.0% → 7.0%
    • To somewhat compensate for being a 0° semi-spike late.
  • 18-26, grounded: 8.0% → 9.0%
    • Pretty strong for a late hit; should have strong combo potential, too, especially with a late 80° angle since now it can auto-cancel from a short hop.
• Knockback:
  • 12-13: 10 BKB/80 KBG → 20 BKB/90 KBG
  • 14-17: 10 BKB/80 KBG → 15 BKB/90 KBG
    • That's f*cking strong for six meteor frames.
  • 18-26, aerial: 20 BKB/90 KBG → 0 BKB/60 KBG
  • 18-26, grounded: 20 BKB/90 KBG → 10 BKB/90 KBG
• Size and location:
  • 12-13, both hitboxes*: size 4.3 → 5.0; X=3.5 → 4.0
    • Reaches a bit higher into his leg while keeping only about 1 unit of disjoint under his foot.
  • 14-17, both hitboxes*: size 4.3 → 4.5; X=3.5
    • Likewise.
  • 18-26, hitbox 0x0*: size 5.3 → 3.5; X=3.5 → 2.5
    • Hitbox reduced to just around his foot area while keeping 1 unit of disjoint under his foot.
  • 18-26, hitbox 0x1*: size 5.3 → 4.2; X=3.5 → 3.2
    • Likewise; these two late hitboxes should be tangent spheres.
• Other properties:
  • 12-13, hitbox 0x1: 2.0 → 1.2 hitlag
    • I get the 2.0 hitlag for the meteor since it makes for nice, beefy feedback upon hitting a spike, but the hitlag for the grounded hitbox should just be for slight emphasis, in my opinion.
  • 14-17, 18-26, all hitboxes: 1.0 hitlag

*The late hitbox is currently only one hitbox that hits at a 361° angle, so--aside from further splitting the active frames into three divisions--the two late divisions would have to have an additional aerial-only target hitbox added to them, ID=0x0. The current late hitbox(es) would be shifted to ID=0x1.

I get too into this stuff.

Also, question. In Brawl/PM, the 365° angle was the auto-link angle, but in Smash 4 the auto-link angle is 366°. What exactly does the 365° angle do now? As far as I know it's only present in the multi-hits Falco's Fire Bird. 361° is still the Sakurai angle, and 367° is the centering angle (meaning the hitbox always pulls opponent towards its center; I don't actually know what it's called).

 

[kendikong]

Anybody else feel link would be much better with his melee boomerang?

 

[Derpnaster]

Anybody else feel link would be much better with his melee boomerang?

No, Gale actually does more for Link than the old rang, by a significant margin.

For example,
Gale Guarding, an old Brawl tech that abused Gale's tendency to us it's first hit on the sides of stag and then activate it's windbox, in the tech the idea was to throw Gale into the stage's side, and either drop or clawshot to the ledge so that an opponent in an edgeguard situation gets caught or is forced to airdodge and get punished for that.

Onstage Gale is a trapping tool as well as a walling tool and persistent spacing option.
As a trapping tool Gale tends to bait opponents into trying to use it's windbox to punish or get a kill off. Link can use that by simply charging a smash or soft dropping a bomb and setting up for a quick two hit punish such as Bomb to fiar or bomb to uair or other such setups.

As a wall Gale is directable and has a very tall hitbox which can disrupt a lot of the cast with timing and placement.

As a spacing options Gale is fast for a persistent hitbox and also has that wind which can be used to posistion foes at a distance Link can manage.

It also is hilarious for the random moments in which it kills from onstage because someone get's "Galed" by the returning hitbox.

And yet it is even useful for extending some of Link's combos.

 

[kendikong]

No, Gale actually does more for Link than the old rang, by a significant margin.

For example,
Gale Guarding, an old Brawl tech that abused Gale's tendency to us it's first hit on the sides of stag and then activate it's windbox, in the tech the idea was to throw Gale into the stage's side, and either drop or clawshot to the ledge so that an opponent in an edgeguard situation gets caught or is forced to airdodge and get punished for that.

Onstage Gale is a trapping tool as well as a walling tool and persistent spacing option.
As a trapping tool Gale tends to bait opponents into trying to use it's windbox to punish or get a kill off. Link can use that by simply charging a smash or soft dropping a bomb and setting up for a quick two hit punish such as Bomb to fiar or bomb to uair or other such setups.

As a wall Gale is directable and has a very tall hitbox which can disrupt a lot of the cast with timing and placement.

As a spacing options Gale is fast for a persistent hitbox and also has that wind which can be used to posistion foes at a distance Link can manage.

It also is hilarious for the random moments in which it kills from onstage because someone get's "Galed" by the returning hitbox.

And yet it is even useful for extending some of Link's combos.

Yea, but think about all the combos toon link gets from the return boomerang. Link would benefit much more from an actual hurtbox to start combos or extend them, or interupt your opponent's combos or grabs.

Also, the opponent can use your gale boomerang against you.

No, I think gale boomerang was a significant nerf to the old boomerang

 

[MarioMeteor]

Yeah. Is anyone right now at the level of Bayonetta, old Sheik, or old Diddy Kong? Probably not (Cloud and Ryu could maybe come close, but Ryu is less of an issue since he's really hard to play, thus making him less of an issue for the majority of players, and Cloud already got some nerfs).

If Nintendo wants them nerfed, they'll get nerfed, I suppose. I don't think any of them are OP enough to warrant nerfs in the fan patch though, given the issues with nerfing (then again, I wouldn't implement nerfs for old Bayonetta either since it'd leave me at a disadvantage in tournaments if I were used to practising against a nerfed Bayonetta).

People have a tendency to exaggerate nerfs, which is one of the issues with having nerfs in this patch. People might get seriously upset if something they play is nerfed, even if the nerf isn't bad. What are the practical reasons for people wanting nerfs in this patch, anyway? How would nerfs make this patch better?

You mean other than balance, which is kind of the whole point of this patch?

 

[Frihetsanka]

You mean other than balance, which is kind of the whole point of this patch?

The point is not to balance for balance's sake, but to make more character viable and avoid any Bayonetta-level of brokenness.

"My goal is to make every character viable in at least one way or another with no character being too bad to even bother with (Ex: Palutena, Zelda, Ganondorf, etc) or too broken to even bother with (i.e. Bayonetta) (Bayonetta's been heavily nerfed in Patch 1.1.6, so this part is redundant). Lower tier characters will be subject to various buffs, while higher tier characters will be left alone for the most part (unless an official patch overnerfed something and/or if something about them is broken)."

Higher tier characters will be left alone until an official patch overnerfs something or if something about them is broken. Nota bene: The word used is broken. Being somewhat overtuned, like Sheik or Diddy Kong, is not enough.

 

[kendikong]

I really dont think there will be any more official balance patches from now on

 

[Derpnaster]

Yea, but think about all the combos toon link gets from the return boomerang. Link would benefit much more from an actual hurtbox to start combos or extend them, or interupt your opponent's combos or grabs.

Also, the opponent can use your gale boomerang against you.

No, I think gale boomerang was a significant nerf to the old boomerang

Gale can start combos on return. Just not by hitting, and using Gale to get close is actually a VERY bad idea. Link hurts up close and getting free position because gale pulls them in is amazing

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Gale Boomerang is a mixed bag, as it can end up working against Link if he's not careful. The regular Boomerang lacks the windboxes that Gale Boomerang has, but at least it can deal damage on its way back.

 

[Arthur97]

You still have to consider that Nintendo has to balance the game as what it is: a party game. Low tiers like Ganondorf are still great fun in that setting and making them better could upset the fun of casual play.

 

[Kazooie56]

download guide?

 

[MarioMeteor]

The point is not to balance for balance's sake, but to make more character viable and avoid any Bayonetta-level of brokenness.

So we're improving the amount of viable characters whilst avoiding anything that could be a threat to this, but we're not balancing? That is literally the exact same thing as balancing.

"My goal is to make every character viable in at least one way or another with no character being too bad to even bother with (Ex: Palutena, Zelda, Ganondorf, etc) or too broken to even bother with (i.e. Bayonetta) (Bayonetta's been heavily nerfed in Patch 1.1.6, so this part is redundant). Lower tier characters will be subject to various buffs, while higher tier characters will be left alone for the most part (unless an official patch overnerfed something and/or if something about them is broken)."

Higher tier characters will be left alone until an official patch overnerfs something or if something about them is broken. Nota bene: The word used is broken. Being somewhat overtuned, like Sheik or Diddy Kong, is not enough.

"Higher tier" is rather vague. There are characters considered high tier and there are characters considered top tier. Naturally, we won't want to nerf the high tiers (not all of them, anyway), but if top tiers remain a threat to the game's balance, not doing something about that would be, for lack of a better word, stupid. And no one's even talking gigantic, destructive swings with the Nerf Hammer, but little changes here and there, like less damage or knockback on true Shoryuken. Things that won't destroy the character, but still improve the integrity of the game's balance.

Now, on the subject of stupid things, what are we doing with Rage?

 

[PavakaSword]

To give feedback regarding how TC wanted us to give input I'd like to share mine for Roy who I've been using against my friends and computers to a great degree

Roy definitely feels really solid as a character with these buffs
Up tilt is slightly better with the extra 3 FAF but nothing we were never using to begin with 36 FAF being solid, but I'd want it to be slightly lower with 33 to compensate for coming out slower than Marth's
Although the down tilt pop up is nice Roy shouldn't really have such a good pop up at those low percents and I feel the data you gave to it should go to it's sweetspot rather than the tip. For the tip I think the value should be 70/70/50 for angle, bkb and kbg respectively

Back throw is also an issue with it's angle and not so much it's damage, little Mac from the ledge getting back throw by Roy at anything above 90% with perfect DI fails to make it back to ledge, for balance sake and little Mac players change the angle, it's too low.
Incidentally back air should have it's damage reverted or Marth's increased since it's significantly easier to hit and makes it a bit unfair to Marth in general
This is just a personal peeve but I think first hit of dancing blade should have FAF of 30 but that's just me, nothing truly necessary

Everything else seems fine, Roy now has an up b to punish air dodges but still retains the same amount of punish if whiffed. Forward air is a great option to throw out with an extra 3 frames of start up gone making it just as good as Marth's (if not better because of the amazing auto cancel it now has in comparison to Marth, he can be as aggressive as he likes now)
Dancing blade connects more efficiently just like Marth's so no issue with that, the first hit sends too far similar to how Marth's goes too high after a certain percent on characters that are out of connecting range

Roy as I said before feels solid and only these few minor tweaks to his moveset I think he's perfect although I think given how good Roy got it you may want to consider buffing Marth with some better auto cancels, he's looking incredibly inferior by comparison.

 

[Radical Larry]

Here's how to solve the Gale Boomerang vs Boomerang debate.

Just add a 4% damage hitbox when Gale Boomerang returns and beef up the windboxes to a Base Wind Knockback of 110. It'll add even more potential combos, won't allow opponents to attack Link safely from Gale Boomerang, the beefed up windboxes are better for Gale Guarding and getting opponents closer to you, and hell, if you just jump from Gale Boomerang, any aerial opponent's going to get blown off stage really, really quickly.

Oh, and making Gale Boomerang come out Frame 19 would do well.

 

[Gigan X3]

That sounds like too much. Let's not go from one extreme to another.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So we're improving the amount of viable characters whilst avoiding anything that could be a threat to this, but we're not balancing? That is literally the exact same thing as balancing.

It's not a complete overhaul since we're only targeting the lower tiers (and maybe some mid tier and high-mid tier characters).

"Higher tier" is rather vague. There are characters considered high tier and there are characters considered top tier. Naturally, we won't want to nerf the high tiers (not all of them, anyway), but if top tiers remain a threat to the game's balance, not doing something about that would be, for lack of a better word, stupid.

Again, to what purpose? Nerfing characters hurts the following players:

#1: Tournament players. If they get used to playing against weaker versions of the character
#2: Players who like that character. They might refuse to play the mod if characters like, say, Diddy Kong and Sheik are nerfed.
#3: People who think the nerfs went too far. A lot of people think that the Bayonetta nerfs were too much, for instance, and Bayonetta was more OP than any current character, and she's still high tier. How would people react if Sheik was nerfed to Bayonettas level? Or even to Mario's level?

The benefits:

#1: Playing against that character will be more fun.

Players generally object more to nerfs than buffs. Tinkering with some characters just to make them slightly more balanced is not worth annoying players of that character. Sure, I agree that some top tier characters could use some nerfs, but let Nintendo do that. No character right now is all that OP, not even Cloud (who already got some nerfs in this patch, though I won't apply them myself).

Now, I'm not super-against nerfs to top tiers if we're given the option to select which characters we want changed. That way I can just skip the changes/nerfs to top tiers and focus on the lower tiers. I do believe that such changes should be worked on last, after all the low-tier and mid-tier characters have been buffed.

Now, on the subject of stupid things, what are we doing with Rage?

Can't touch it or else you'll be messing with tournament players too much. Could add changes to Rage in a separate file and then let people decide for themselves whether they want the changes or not, I suppose.

 

[MarioMeteor]

#1: Tournament players. If they get used to playing against weaker versions of the character

Nobody is going to complain about having an easier time fighting a character that may have given them a problem in the past.

#2: Players who like that character. They might refuse to play the mod if characters like, say, Diddy Kong and Sheik are nerfed.

If anyone is that petty, it's their fault for maining a character like Sheik and not being prepared to be nerfed. That's the risk of playing a top tier.

#3: People who think the nerfs went too far. A lot of people think that the Bayonetta nerfs were too much, for instance, and Bayonetta was more OP than any current character, and she's still high tier. How would people react if Sheik was nerfed to Bayonettas level? Or even to Mario's level?

Everybody who's not a Sheik main would rejoice.

The benefits:

#1: Playing against that character will be more fun.

Players generally object more to nerfs than buffs. Tinkering with some characters just to make them slightly more balanced is not worth annoying players of that character. Sure, I agree that some top tier characters could use some nerfs, but let Nintendo do that. No character right now is all that OP, not even Cloud (who already got some nerfs in this patch, though I won't apply them myself).

Now, I'm not super-against nerfs to top tiers if we're given the option to select which characters we want changed. That way I can just skip the changes/nerfs to top tiers and focus on the lower tiers. I do believe that such changes should be worked on last, after all the low-tier and mid-tier characters have been buffed.

If we nerf Sheik and Zero Suit Samus, the salty players of those characters won't play the mod, but the other players of the 50+ characters are going to play it out of joy of two of their bad matchups being fixed. And you think that's not worth it? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Can't touch it or else you'll be messing with tournament players too much. Could add changes to Rage in a separate file and then let people decide for themselves whether they want the changes or not, I suppose.

How do you know if tournament players don't like Rage and want it fixed, too?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Just to make sure we're on the same page here: We're discussing playing with friends, 1v1, at non-tournament settings, right? Let's assume this mod will never, ever be used at any significant tournaments (since it probably won't be, being a mod and all). It's just for fun between friends.

Nobody is going to complain about having an easier time fighting a character that may have given them a problem in the past.

Seems like you didn't get what I'm saying. Let's say you spend 3 hours practicing at home against Diddy Kong, who has been nerfed. Then you go to a tournament and face a Diddy Kong that hasn't been nerfed. You're now at a disadvantage, since in your earlier practice you played vs a weaker Diddy Kong.

If we nerf Sheik and Zero Suit Samus, the salty players of those characters won't play the mod, but the other players of the 50+ characters are going to play it out of joy of two of their bad matchups being fixed.

If the matchup is so bad, then just ask your friend to pick someone else.

How do you know if tournament players don't like Rage and want it fixed, too?

I don't have much data to go on, but more people seem to like Rage than dislike it (based on this poll: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-honest-truth-about-the-rage-mechanic.435938/). Anyway, my point is: Tournament players are unlikely to want to practice without Rage and then play with Rage in tournaments. They would be at a noticeable disadvantage compared to people who play vanilla.

 

[Gigan X3]

Rage is fine. No need to change it. I don't like it nor dislike it. I prefer it over foot stool but I'm not asking for that to be removed either.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I despise it with the white-hot passion of a thousand suns. It's responsible for like, 90% of this game's jank.

 

[Radical Larry]

I despise it with the white-hot passion of a thousand suns. It's responsible for like, 90% of this game's jank.

But remember, without Rage, the gap between the tiers would get exponentially wider. Plus, you're nerfing Ganondorf to being the worst in the game as a result. His game play is aided by rage, and removing that would make Ganondorf literally the worst character in the mod. So basically all I've suggested for Ganondorf would HAVE to happen in this mod, should Rage be removed.

Rage is fine. No need to change it. I don't like it nor dislike it. I prefer it over foot stool but I'm not asking for that to be removed either.

Eh, Phantom Footstooling sucks. If one could have the option to short hop from a phantom foot stool, then it'll work.
But footstool KOs suck.

[I want DACUS back if Footstooling stays.]

 

[MarioMeteor]

But remember, without Rage, the gap between the tiers would get exponentially wider. Plus, you're nerfing Ganondorf to being the worst in the game as a result. His game play is aided by rage, and removing that would make Ganondorf literally the worst character in the mod. So basically all I've suggested for Ganondorf would HAVE to happen in this mod, should Rage be removed.

In return for Rage's removal, the knockback of all moves would get raised. So, essentially, upping the damage ratio.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

In return for Rage's removal, the knockback of all moves would get raised. So, essentially, upping the damage ratio.

That would screw with combos extremely badly.

Rage pretty much can't be touched. Not without completely altering the game. Even minor changes throws in huge wrenches in combo windows.

---

The argument that "if you are used to a nerfed character its going to throw you off in tournament" still doesn't hold water when the reverse is true for buffed characters. Character changes period will throw you off compared to the vanilla version without warm ups in between to readjust. Not exclusive to nerfs, thus a moot point for fan patches.

 

[JohnKnight416]

I don't really seen many Links use some of their specials too much in some ways that they were purposefully designed for, such as purposefully making use out of the Windbox of his SideB, mainly because there are too many flaws in the way he's currently designed that defeats the intentional purposes that he has for these moves of his. Because of the many issues that Link currently has, he does seem to struggle against certain MU against characters that are at higher tier levels then him.

Here are some of these issues that I tend to experience whenever I play as Link on FG:

Link feels as if he can hardly put up a wall w/ his projectiles due to the face that they all seem have too much Lag to them. There are instances in which fast characters such as ZSS or Sonic usually close the distance whenever Link tries to space them out with his projectiles. Even character who aren't as fast can close the distance as well, especially if the opponent knows how to deal with projectiles in.

Link Neutral Game feels somewhat sluggish due to his current Frame Data. And as a result, Link can't really seem to punish his opponents efficiently due to the fact that a lot his moves in general have too much lag to and the fact that his running and air speed are both below average are also contributing factors as to why Link's punishing game is somewhat poor. A MU against Sheik is a perfect example of this case because Sheik tends to punish Link almost every time for pretty much every single move that he makes from his entire moveset before he can even execute them. Hence as to why Link usually has Bad MU's against Sheik still due to his current Frame Data.

A major issue w/ Link in which I find to be really upsetting is that he doesn't have a safe approach option out of his Dash. His Dash Attack hitbox come out pretty late and alongside his slow running speed, the opponent enough time react and either shield and then grab him the since Link always tends to land in front of them when performing his Dash Attack, or just simply dodge away from that move. And since the Dash Attack doesn't have any super armor or invincibility, Link is literally vulnerable during his Dash Attack and that he easily gets stuffed out by any attack, even by something as stupid as a Jab.
His Grab isn't even enough to compensate for Dash Attack vulnerability b/c it's a Tether Grab and that Tether Grabs in general don't come out as fast as normal grabs and that they're extremely punishable due to the amount of end lag that they have on them.
Overall, I feel like Link is the only character who lacks a safe and reliable approach option out of his Dash and as result, he's mostly forced to play defensively. I really hope that Link gets a buff out of his Dash options, such as giving an additional hitbox on the initial start of his Dash Attack, b/c I find this to be one of the too many major flaws w/ this character. Like how the come Toon Link have and active hitbox on his Dash Attack and leave Link with a Dash Attack that has a later active hitbox that gets easily countered a majority of the time?!

 

[RedMarf78]

Cause Link's dash attack kills at 75%. Joke's aside, you shouldn't be using links dash attack as an approach; you should only really be using it for punishes or bomb-o-combos (bomb confirms). That said I also think it could use a speed buff. Despite its power I'm never really scared of a Link dash attack because not only is the move slow but so is link so it like never hits.

That would screw with combos extremely badly.

Rage pretty much can't be touched. Not without completely altering the game. Even minor changes throws in huge wrenches in combo windows.

Why can't rage be touched? It would make it so that moves generally seem to kill later since rage isn't backing their knockback anymore but overall wouldn't removing rage just make it so people don't have to constantly worry about the percent windows for combo's and kill confirms changing based on their own percent? And for the universal knockback increase described by Mariometeor. Increasing the knockback of every move seems excessive and probably would throw people off; you'd probably only need to buff kill moves and you wouldn't necessarily have to do it universally.

 

[MarioMeteor]

That would screw with combos extremely badly.

Rage pretty much can't be touched. Not without completely altering the game. Even minor changes throws in huge wrenches in combo windows.

---

The argument that "if you are used to a nerfed character its going to throw you off in tournament" still doesn't hold water when the reverse is true for buffed characters. Character changes period will throw you off compared to the vanilla version without warm ups in between to readjust. Not exclusive to nerfs, thus a moot point for fan patches.

It worked for three prior Smash games (more if you count mods), I don't see why it wouldn't work here.

 

[Frihetsanka]

The argument that "if you are used to a nerfed character its going to throw you off in tournament" still doesn't hold water when the reverse is true for buffed characters. Character changes period will throw you off compared to the vanilla version without warm ups in between to readjust. Not exclusive to nerfs, thus a moot point for fan patches.

What's going to hurt you more: Practising against a Palutena that has less end lag, and later facing a Palutena with more end lag, or practising against a Sheik with more end lag, and later facing a Sheik with less end lag?

I don't believe it's nearly as much bad practice to face a stronger character than it is to face a weaker character. Furthermore, I'm less worried about losing to a Palutena than a Cloud, personally, mostly because more players (at my local, at least) play Cloud.

Let's assume, for the sake of the argument, that what I just wrote isn't true. So let's assume buffs affect ones performance as tournaments just as much as nerfs do (I don't think they do, though). Even then, that doesn't mean it's an invalid argument. It does mean that it's a con for buffing characters as well, which I concede that it is. Still, that wasn't my only argument against nerfs, and the advantages of buffing seem to be more significant than the disadvantages (if done right).

To better illustrate what I mean, let's use math. Let's say the baseline is at 5. The game currently has a value of 5. Let's say the "making you worse at tournaments" costs 2 points for nerfs, and 1 point for buffs. Let's say the cost of upsetting your friends that play characters that are nerfed is 2 points, and the benefit of people getting to play against slightly less OP characters is 1 point. So, base value 5, -2 for the tournament aspect, -2 for upsetting your friends, +1 for balancing the game/making them more fun to play against. In total, you end up with... 2 points, worse than where you started. But wait, what if you don't play in a tournament? Then you end up with 4 points, slightly worse compared where you started. But what if none of your friends play any of the OP characters? Well, then there's no need to nerf them, is there? Except they might pick them up if they're nerfed.

So. Having the option to nerf characters could work for some groups. Mainly for groups that don't play in tournaments and that won't get to upset by nerfs.

Let's compare with buffs. Again, a baseline of 5, -1 for slightly worse tournaments, and let's say +3 for making more characters viable. Assuming the balancing is done well, your friends shouldn't be upset, but let's throw in a -1 just in case. That's a total score of 6, making it slightly better than the baseline and thus worthwhile.

These numbers are, obviously, not fact. They also show that for some groups character nerfs would be a good thing. Still, what I'm mainly objecting to is people suggesting character nerfs at this point in time. Let's focus on buffing the lower tier characters first, and when we're done with that, then you guys could discuss character nerfs if you wish, I suppose. As long as those of us that don't want them can opt out it doesn't hurt, I suppose.

 

[BJN39]

If you increase the average move's damage by 2%, it will KO marginally earlier.

If you increase the KBG of a move by 20 units, it will KO marginally earlier (A prime example is when Zelda's Usmash KBG went from 190 to 214 in 1.0.8. This made the move KO at least 30% earlier.)

When you quite literally combine the two, you're making a move KO at utterly insane percents.

This is what happens when you buff Palutena's Uthrow by 2%, AND increase the kbg by 20.

Her Uthrow becomes a stronger, vertical version of Ness's Bthrow. Without rage it still KO'ed 3DS ZSS at under 100%.

AND THIS IS OFF OF PALUTENA'S GRAB.

I can't forget to mention how +30KBG makes her Bthrow also ~equivalent to Ness's Bthrow.

On top of that, both of those throws are DI mixups for each other, so DI'ing correctly for Uthrow, but getting Bthrow'd will just make you die even sooner, and vice versa for DI'ing correctly for Bthrow.

So with these changes Palutena would have two Ness Bthrows that work as a 50/50 DI mixup. No no no no...

---

Please understand that 90% of the time you don't need both damage AND KBG increases to make a move KO better. As it is, increasing the damage of a hitbox inherently will increase its KO power. Also, increase KBG carefully, people. Some moves do not need a lot more to KO well enough.

 

[Deleted member]

To better illustrate what I mean, let's use math. Let's say the baseline is at 5. The game currently has a value of 5. Let's say the "making you worse at tournaments" costs 2 points for nerfs, and 1 point for buffs. Let's say the cost of upsetting your friends that play characters that are nerfed is 2 points, and the benefit of people getting to play against slightly less OP characters is 1 point. So, base value 5, -2 for the tournament aspect, -2 for upsetting your friends, +1 for balancing the game/making them more fun to play against. In total, you end up with... 2 points, worse than where you started. But wait, what if you don't play in a tournament? Then you end up with 4 points, slightly worse compared where you started. But what if none of your friends play any of the OP characters? Well, then there's no need to nerf them, is there? Except they might pick them up if they're nerfed.

For so long I have been searching for a way to use the word superfluous, and now I have finally found one.

 

[Radical Larry]

If you increase the average move's damage by 2%, it will KO marginally earlier.

If you increase the KBG of a move by 20 units, it will KO marginally earlier (A prime example is when Zelda's Usmash KBG went from 190 to 214 in 1.0.8. This made the move KO at least 30% earlier.)

When you quite literally combine the two, you're making a move KO at utterly insane percents.

This is what happens when you buff Palutena's Uthrow by 2%, AND increase the kbg by 20.

Her Uthrow becomes a stronger, vertical version of Ness's Bthrow. Without rage it still KO'ed 3DS ZSS at under 100%.

AND THIS IS OFF OF PALUTENA'S GRAB.

I can't forget to mention how +30KBG makes her Bthrow also ~equivalent to Ness's Bthrow.

On top of that, both of those throws are DI mixups for each other, so DI'ing correctly for Uthrow, but getting Bthrow'd will just make you die even sooner, and vice versa for DI'ing correctly for Bthrow.

So with these changes Palutena would have two Ness Bthrows that work as a 50/50 DI mixup. No no no no...

---

Please understand that 90% of the time you don't need both damage AND KBG increases to make a move KO better. As it is, increasing the damage of a hitbox inherently will increase its KO power. Also, increase KBG carefully, people. Some moves do not need a lot more to KO well enough.

You the modder of the GIF? If so, can you and I talk sometime?
EDIT: Thanks for telling me.