Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[BJN39]

You the modder of the GIF? If so, can you and I talk sometime?

@Lavani made the GIF as well as the modding to show this suggested change off.

 

[Gigan X3]

Eh, Phantom Footstooling sucks. If one could have the option to short hop from a phantom foot stool, then it'll work.
But footstool KOs suck.

[I want DACUS back if Footstooling stays.]

Yes and YES! DACUS was already in this game, I think it got removed in the early patches and that is one of the few changes I didn't like.

 

[ZeusLink]

I can't believe they removed DACUS but kept footstooling. Even in a game like this, Sakurai wants it to be almost as bad as Brawl.

 

[Derpnaster]

keep in mind there are characters who rely on footstools for damage. So removing it would nerf them indirectly

 

[JohnKnight416]

Cause Link's dash attack kills at 75%. Joke's aside, you shouldn't be using links dash attack as an approach; you should only really be using it for punishes or bomb-o-combos (bomb confirms). That said I also think it could use a speed buff. Despite its power I'm never really scared of a Link dash attack because not only is the move slow but so is link so it like never hits.

Even as an punish option, it still isn't very efficient b/c of how laggy it is, especially on startup. In fact I would consider Link's Dash Attack to not be a very optimal option for punishing mainly b/c I end up getting punished instead. Regardless as to how slow Link's Running Speed is, no matter how far he is from his opponent, the amount of Starting Lag on the Dash Attack is more than enough for the opponent to react towards it the moment they see it come out, especially if their reaction speed is on point. And if they're playing as a character with really good Frame Data such as Ryu or Sheik, they simply have a much better time blocking and then punishing Link's Dash Attack since its Ending Lag makes it punishable on shields sometimes.

As I said before, Link's Dash Attack hitbox comes out late since he has too much Starting Lag in between at the Initial Start, meaning that there's a window of opportunity for the opponent to punish Link whenever he performs his Dash attack. But not only is Link vulnerable right after the Initial Start of his Dash Attack, but he always lunges forward whenever he's performing his Dash Attack. B/c of this, he is literally a MOVING HURTBOX whenever performing his Dash Attack that always goes towards within reach for the opponent to attack him. Hence as to why I find myself getting stuffed out of Link's Dash Attack by something as extremely stupid as a basic Grab or Jab.

 

[Radical Larry]

Then why don't we buff it in 2 different options:

Option 1: Sacrificing Power for Speed

• Start-Up Decreased: Frame 20 => Frame 14
• FAF Decreased: 57 Frames => 49 Frames
• Damage Decreased [Base to Tip]: 12/13/14% => 10/11/12%

Now remember this. The attack would still end on Frame 17, and it's usually either Frames 16 to 17 where the attack will connect. It's still predictable, but much less predictable than before. The damage decrease makes it kill later, but it's compensation for the reduction of start-up lag and ending lag.

Option 2: Power Breaker

• Damage Increased [Base to Tip]: 12/13/14% => 15/17/17%
• Shield Damage Added
  • Value [Base to Tip]: +15/20/30

Since the speed isn't changed in the slightest, this attack will now become not only significantly more powerful, but also have the ability to break shields at the tip, or just pressure shields like crazy. If Link shouldn't get a reduction, then his Dash Attack should be more dangerous instead.

 

[Furret24]

Then why don't we buff it in 2 different options:

Option 1: Sacrificing Power for Speed

• Start-Up Decreased: Frame 20 => Frame 14
• FAF Decreased: 57 Frames => 49 Frames
• Damage Decreased [Base to Tip]: 12/13/14% => 10/11/12%

Now remember this. The attack would still end on Frame 17, and it's usually either Frames 16 to 17 where the attack will connect. It's still predictable, but much less predictable than before. The damage decrease makes it kill later, but it's compensation for the reduction of start-up lag and ending lag.

Option 2: Power Breaker

• Damage Increased [Base to Tip]: 12/13/14% => 15/17/17%
• Shield Damage Added
  • Value [Base to Tip]: +15/20/30

Since the speed isn't changed in the slightest, this attack will now become not only significantly more powerful, but also have the ability to break shields at the tip, or just pressure shields like crazy. If Link shouldn't get a reduction, then his Dash Attack should be more dangerous instead.

Not every powerful attack has to break shields. There are ways to make slow but strong attacks viable without making shields borderline useless against them.

 

[Radical Larry]

Not every powerful attack has to break shields. There are ways to make slow but strong attacks viable without making shields borderline useless against them.

Okay, here's a challenge. Name one move that's 20 frames or higher that's not only viable, but also doesn't do at least 25% damage on shields or goes through them. If you can name one that can do this, you win and I'll retract my statement.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

1. Air Speed (1.02 ->1.034) [Revert back to Brawl]
2. Fair Landing Lag decreased (16 -> 12) <--------- REALLY NEEDED [n Brawl this thing was 9 Frames ....]
3. Fair Active Hit-Box (6-8 -> 5-8) [Revert back to brawl somewhat... okay in brawl it was 4-7]
4. Fair Autocancel Window (36> - > 32>) [For those of you wondering in Brawl this window was 27>]
5. Bair Landing Lag decreased ( 17 -> 15)
6. Dolphin Slash [Early] KBG [ 74 -> 84]
7. Dolphin Slash KBG [90/90/90/74/74 -> 100/100/100/84/84]
8. Dolphin Slash [Late] KBG [ 90 -> 100]
9. Dair Start-up reverted back to Frame 7 instead of Frame 9.
10. Dair Landing Lag decreased (24 -> 20)
11. Dancing Blade 1 now stalls Marth in the air (Like it did in Brawl and Melee)
12. Forward Throw BKG decreased [100 -> 70] KBG increased [ 50 -> 70] (AKA Combo Throw at low-mid percent)
13. Down Throw BKG decreased [95 -> 80] KBG increased [50 -> 60]
14. Neutral Aerial Autocancel Window (47> -> 40>).
15. Neutral Aerial Landling Lag (12 -> 11) To Match Roy's"
16. Uair Active Hit-Box added (5-9 -> 5-10) Removes Marth blind-spot he has behind him

Notes:
9 and 10 Let's face it Marth Dair is rather under-tuned as an option making it a rather bad Dair
For 6,7,8 I just want to make his Up-B kill slightly earlier then before.

Buffs in Red: Not a necessity but are recommended QoL buffs [Quality of Life]
Buffs in Green: Highly Recommended
These Marth buffs is probably all he really needs. He gets more rewarded for playing his game then before with Fair actually being potent again but not broken like it was in BRAWL (Frame 4 Hitbox, 9 Frames of Landing lag with 27> Autocancel window. He doesn't have Short-Hop Double Fair either. So no brawl Marth if you people think that's what I'm aiming for. Just some really nice quality of life buffs.In general I am aiming in making is neutral better and his conversions off from neutral better as well.

 

[anas abou]

1. Air Speed (1.02 ->1.034) [Revert back to Brawl]
2. Fair Landing Lag (16 -> 11/12 (Although I would prefer 11))
3. Fair Hitbox Active (6-8 -> 5-8 OR 6-9) [Revert back to brawl somewhat... okay in brawl it was 4-7]
4. Fair Autocancel Window (36> - > 32>) [For those of you wondering in Brawl this window was 27>]
5. Bair Landing Lag ( 17 -> 15)
6. Dolphin Slash [Early] KBG [ 74 -> 84]
7. Dolphin Slash KBG [90/90/90/74/74 -> 100/100/100/84/84]
8. Dolphin Slash [Late] KBG [ 90 -> 100]
9. Dancing Blade 1 now stalls Marth in the air (Like it did in Brawl)
10. Forward Throw BKG [100 -> 82]

Buffs in Red: Not a necessity but are recommended
Buffs in Green: Highly Recommended
These Marth buffs is probably all he really needs. He gets more rewarded for playing his game then before with Fair actually being potent again. He doesn't have Short-Hop Double Fair either. So no brawl Marth if you people think that's what I'm aiming for. Just some really nice quality of life buffs. I have no idea on Lucina and how this would affect her though.

marth is no longer trash why do people forget this, anyway lemme fix you up real quick

1. this one is useless not worth the effort TBH.
2. fair landing lag should be no less than 13 since it can kill so early.
3. i dunno about this one
4. definitely.
5. why not.
6. yeah a better out of shield game is always nice.
7. it kills too wtf.
8. why should it kill.
9. marth's recovery is just fine.
10. why tho

also barely any mention of grab game SMH.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

marth is no longer trash why do people forget this, anyway lemme fix you up real quick

1. this one is useless not worth the effort TBH. Actually reverting his Air-speed back would be a nice quality of life buff IMO but then again it was pointless nerf for Marth in the transition considering the fact he's this is his weakest incarnation by far in the series, although I wouldn't be mad if this wasn't reverted.
2. fair landing lag should be no less than 13 since it can kill so early. If it kills early on tipper then I would suggest nerfing the knockback on his tipper fair since otherwise his neutral is lacking a solid consistent option against characters who have very good neutral tools [which is considered a very bad MU because of this]
3. i dunno about this one It's just a brawl change. The duration isn't what made Brawl Fair the best move in the game it was the crazy auto-cancel window and along with below 10 frames of landing lag. Although this definitely should be tested to see if it's a bit to much.
4. definitely.
5. why not.
6. yeah a better out of shield game is always nice. If you agreed to this then why did you disagree with 7 and 8 they are the same move just in different timings.
7. it kills too wtf. ??? His Up-B this doesn't kill until very high percents with rage and have to be at the ledge or I could be mistaken
8. why should it kill. ??? Again his Up-B doesn't kill until very high percents with rage and have to be at the ledge or I could be mistaken? I remember a game in seing Mr. E or Pugwest both Marth mains in which a Up-B failed to kill a Sheik at 158% with some rage added around 1/3 distance away from the ledge.
9. marth's recovery is just fine. Fine i can deal with that and is now in Red
10. why tho So Marth can have some combos out of F-throw at very early or early percents at least that is the intent.

also no mention of grab game SMH .

Also while I am aware that Marth is not trash Anymore but the Character was ridiculously bad or under-tuned at release and is just now being seen as okay/decent to players :[ Also thank you for the feedback.

 

[anas abou]

Also I do know Marth is not trash Anymore but the Character was ridiculously bad or under-tuned at release and is just now being seen as okay/decent to players :[

marth's up-b should not kill since it has frame 1 invincibility (in the air otherwhise frame 4) and is designed escape combos, the buffs listed would make it a consistent killing tool which will be stupid.

forward throw should have good knockack to create space and allow marth to do his thing, regardless i doubt the change listed would make it much better at comboing considering the angle it sends.

marth would suck at zoning/edgeguarding if f-air tipper didn't kill, he would no longer be scary (but abuseable) in neutral.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Okay, here's a challenge. Name one move that's 20 frames or higher that's not only viable, but also doesn't do at least 25% damage on shields or goes through them. If you can name one that can do this, you win and I'll retract my statement.

-Samus's Bombs

-Ness and Lucas's PK Fire

-Zero Suit Samus's D-Smash and Paralyzer (Uncharged & Full-charged)

-Charizard's Flare Blitz

-R.O.B's Robo Beam (Uncharged, Half-charged and Full-charged)

-Sonic's Homing Attack

-Mega Man's Leaf Shield

-Wii Fit Trainer's Sun Salutation

-All of Pacman's Bonus Fruits

-Robin's Thoron

-Bayonetta's U-Smash


Not to butt-in and be a jerk about it, but there's quiet a few actually.

 

[anas abou]

-Samus's Bombs (not viable due to not detonating on contact).

-Ness and Lucas's PK Fire (projectile so it doesn't count).

-Zero Suit Samus's D-Smash and Paralyzer (the latter is a projectile so it doesn't count / first is good argument despite stun effect).

-Charizard's Flare Blitz (not viable due to recoil damage and being super unsafe on shield).

-R.O.B's Robo Beam (projectile so it doesn't count).

-Sonic's Homing Attack (not viable due to start lag).

-Mega Man's Leaf Shield (this one is hardly an attack more of a setup/powerup).

-Wii Fit Trainer's Sun Salutation (projectile so it doesn't count).

-All of Pacman's Bonus Fruits (projectile so it doesn't count).

-Robin's Thoron (projectile so it doesn't count).

-Bayonetta's U-Smash (only viable with witch time).


Not to butt-in and be a jerk about it, but there's quiet a few actually.

so we got ZSS's down smash (paralyzer) YAY.

the problem with moves that have 20+ start lag is that you can react to them.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Some ideas I have:

• FIX ROBIN'S GRAB! It should be similar to the other FE characters in terms of range and endlag.
• Increase the durability points of Robin's weapons:
  • Levin Sword: 8 -> 12
  • Thunder: 20 -> 20
  • Arcfire: 6 -> 8
  • Elwind: 18 -> 24
  • Nosferatu: 4 -> 4
• Universal increase on hitbox sizes to give Robin a more effective disjoint. Doesn't need to be drastic, preferably increases similar to what Marcina got in patch 1.1.4 (increases ranging from 0.25u - 2u)
• Slight buff to ground mobility
  • Dash speed: 1.15 -> 1.27 (tied with Villager)

• Attributes:
  • Air speed: 1.02 -> 1.1
• Throws
  • Fthrow:
    • Base knockback: 100 -> 70
    • Knockback growth: 50 -> 45
  • Uthrow:
    • Damage: 4% -> 5%
  • Dthrow:
    • Base knockback: 95 -> 65
    • Angle: 100 -> 135
• Aerials:
  • Nair:
    • Autocancel: 47 -> 25
    • Landing lag: 12 -> 9
  • Fair:
    • Hitbox active: 6-8 -> 4-7
    • FAF: 38 -> 30
    • Autocancel: 36 -> 27
    • Landing lag: 16 -> 9
  • Uair:
    • Autocancel: 38 -> 27
    • Landing lag: 14 -> 9
  • Dair:
    • Tipper hitboxes meteor smash
    • Autocancel: 55 -> 48
• Specials
  • Shieldbreaker (Lucina):
    • Base knockback: 45 -> 55
  • Shieldbreaker (both):
    • Uncharged shield damage: 25 -> 30

• Attributes:
  • Dash speed: 1.45 -> 1.5
  • Air speed: 0.97 -> 1
  • Just restoring prepatch mobility for the reason below
• Dragon Fang Shot: Modify the FAF in a way to make it easier to follow up on the DFS.

Although this could work too though this would be rather drastic for Marth/Lucina compared to mine LOL

 

[anas abou]

Fair:

• Landing lag: 16 -> 9
• Autocancel: 36 -> 27

Dair:

• Tipper hitboxes meteor smash

http://bulletin.equinoxpub.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Jesus-facepalm.jpg

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

http://bulletin.equinoxpub.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Jesus-facepalm.jpg

LOL i never said that, someone else said that in a post i quoted btw, Not me for you lurkers out there :]

 

[Radical Larry]

https://twitter.com/fuyucodachi/status/747474201703964672

...uh...

...what?

-Samus's Bombs

-Ness and Lucas's PK Fire

-Zero Suit Samus's D-Smash and Paralyzer (Uncharged & Full-charged)

-Charizard's Flare Blitz

-R.O.B's Robo Beam (Uncharged, Half-charged and Full-charged)

-Sonic's Homing Attack

-Mega Man's Leaf Shield

-Wii Fit Trainer's Sun Salutation

-All of Pacman's Bonus Fruits

-Robin's Thoron

-Bayonetta's U-Smash


Not to butt-in and be a jerk about it, but there's quiet a few actually.

And I said viable, not viable with setups before or after it. Besides:

Samus's Bombs need D-Air to work and is only able to keep you in mid-air as a recovery for so long.
Ness's PK Fire isn't viable at all without any setups into other attacks, and opponents can dodge or DI.
Lucas's PK Fire is just worse.
ZSS's D-Smash and Paralyzer usually lead up to what faster, more viable move?
Counter and Cape.
An uncharged beam is not viable, half-charged is annoying but predictable and full charge is insignificant.
And what does Sonic's Homing Attack need to set up from? It could even be detrimental to Sonic.
Leaf Shield is...well...meh...I don't know, it's possibly not even that great when you think about it.
I should have made a rule to where you can't use Charge Moves as examples. You should have put Samus's Charge Shot there too.
Same thing applies to Pac.
What did I say to the last two? Robin's counts too.
Witch Time NEEDED first. Otherwise, it's not a good move.

All of these need setups or have to set up into something else, and other things are just redundant because they come out faster after charging.

 

[Deleted member]

keep in mind there are characters who rely on footstools for damage. So removing it would nerf them indirectly

So just make compensation buffs.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Also while I am aware that Marth is not trash Anymore but the Character was ridiculously bad or under-tuned at release and is just now being seen as okay/decent to players :[ Also thank you for the feedback.

More and more people are starting to view Marth as a high-mid tier character. He also has results of a top 15 character, and since then he's had some impressive results in CEO 2016, including a top 8 placement. Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-479#post-21267478

Marth probably doesn't need much buffs now, since he's likely high-mid tier or maybe even high tier. That does raise the question though: What should be done with Lucina? She's generally considered mid tier, low-mid tier, or even low tier. She's easier to play than Marth but considered much weaker, and she lacks good tournament results, despite having a decent amount of usage. This suggests that Marth is the superior character. Should we give Lucina some small buffs to close the gap a bit and maybe move her into high-mid tier? How do we deal with the whole "Marth and Lucina are meant to be similar"? Or should we just leave her untouched, potentially turning her into one of the worst characters in the mod once the others have gotten buffed? I'm not quite sure.

So just make compensation buffs.

That's not a good idea, since then those characters may be somewhat overpowered when footstools are kept in (which I suspect most tournament players will do). Turning footstools off would make you less prepared to deal with them in tournaments. For non-tournament players, having that option might not be a bad thing, but I don't think characters should be balanced for it. Chances are, if you're not a tournament player you're not going to learn how to do footstool combos in the first place (though maybe you play seriously with your friends despite that?).

Actually, I'm kind of curious. How many people here play in tournaments while also being interested in this mod? I mad a Strawpoll. Please only vote if you're interested in this mod. http://www.strawpoll.me/10609468

 

[Arthur97]

You could always try and make Lucina a bit faster than Marth. Alternatively, maybe you could buff the damage somewhat.

 

[Derpnaster]

More and more people are starting to view Marth as a high-mid tier character. He also has results of a top 15 character, and since then he's had some impressive results in CEO 2016, including a top 8 placement. Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-479#post-21267478

Marth probably doesn't need much buffs now, since he's likely high-mid tier or maybe even high tier. That does raise the question though: What should be done with Lucina? She's generally considered mid tier, low-mid tier, or even low tier. She's easier to play than Marth but considered much weaker, and she lacks good tournament results, despite having a decent amount of usage. This suggests that Marth is the superior character. Should we give Lucina some small buffs to close the gap a bit and maybe move her into high-mid tier? How do we deal with the whole "Marth and Lucina are meant to be similar"? Or should we just leave her untouched, potentially turning her into one of the worst characters in the mod once the others have gotten buffed? I'm not quite sure.

That's not a good idea, since then those characters may be somewhat overpowered when footstools are kept in (which I suspect most tournament players will do). Turning footstools off would make you less prepared to deal with them in tournaments. For non-tournament players, having that option might not be a bad thing, but I don't think characters should be balanced for it. Chances are, if you're not a tournament player you're not going to learn how to do footstool combos in the first place (though maybe you play seriously with your friends despite that?).

Actually, I'm kind of curious. How many people here play in tournaments while also being interested in this mod? I mad a Strawpoll. Please only vote if you're interested in this mod. http://www.strawpoll.me/10609468

Also keep in mind that you would have to buff AT LEAST, Ike, Mewtwo, and Greninja. Greninja in particular because outside of hit and run and quick two more combos he has little to no extended strings that DON'T involve footstools at least once.

 

[Deleted member]

I think that balancing the game with tournaments in mind is a pathetic idea. What's the point of limiting this game to be similar to the vanilla version if people are just going to play vanilla anyways? Why make it comfortable for vanilla players if this mod isn't actually going to be played in tournaments? And don't give me any of that "it makes it easier for them to adapt" mess.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Also keep in mind that you would have to buff AT LEAST, Ike, Mewtwo, and Greninja. Greninja in particular because outside of hit and run and quick two more combos he has little to no extended strings that DON'T involve footstools at least once.

Note that I'm not in favor of buffing characters specifically due to footstools. Still, I could see Ike and Greninja getting a few, small buffs. Mewtwo already got a few (mainly to buff options he wouldn't use much, such as jabs).

I think that balancing the game with tournaments in mind is a pathetic idea. What's the point of limiting this game to be similar to the vanilla version if people are just going to play vanilla anyways? Why make it comfortable for vanilla players if this mod isn't actually going to be played in tournaments? And don't give me any of that "it makes it easier for them to adapt" mess.

It really depends on what you're looking for. If you're looking for "vanilla, but with some of the weaker characters buffed", then this patch is for you. If you're looking for "a reimagining of Smash 4, like Smash 4+ or Smash 4.5", then you might want to look elsewhere. There's nothing wrong with making a Smash 4+, but this is not it.

People who don't intend to play this mod shouldn't be considered at all, of course. Some people might be interested to exclusively play this mod, while others want to play this at home and vanilla at tournaments. One good way of solving things would be to offer several alternatives. If you want to play with footstools, choose A. If you want to play without, choose B. It should be easy enough to make multiple versions.

"it makes it easier for them to adapt" is a valid argument.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

And I said viable, not viable with setups before or after it. Besides:

Samus's Bombs need D-Air to work and is only able to keep you in mid-air as a recovery for so long.
Ness's PK Fire isn't viable at all without any setups into other attacks, and opponents can dodge or DI.
Lucas's PK Fire is just worse.
ZSS's D-Smash and Paralyzer usually lead up to what faster, more viable move?
Counter and Cape.
An uncharged beam is not viable, half-charged is annoying but predictable and full charge is insignificant.
And what does Sonic's Homing Attack need to set up from? It could even be detrimental to Sonic.
Leaf Shield is...well...meh...I don't know, it's possibly not even that great when you think about it.
I should have made a rule to where you can't use Charge Moves as examples. You should have put Samus's Charge Shot there too.
Same thing applies to Pac.
What did I say to the last two? Robin's counts too.
Witch Time NEEDED first. Otherwise, it's not a good move.

All of these need setups or have to set up into something else, and other things are just redundant because they come out faster after charging.

To be fair, you didn't say what your definition of viable was.

I was under the idea that a viable move had to safe on shield.

 

[Derpnaster]

To be fair, you didn't say what your definition of viable was.

I was under the idea that a viable move had to safe on shield.

I think a better definition of viable is a move that has at least a break even in risk
For example,
Link's Dash-smash (Dash Attack), sure it's punishable, and predictable if you don't plan it. But it has the benefit of a stupidly high KBG and high enough BKB to kill as early as 50% with rage, and it covers high making it able to shark on battlefield and possibly Dreamland, and to top it off Link can jump over low attacks and some projectiles because he actually leaves the ground.

The downside is that Link has a lot of startup, the hitbox isn't out in front of Link when it first starts up which further lends to it being slow, and finally it's endlag in pretty bad.

I highly suggest using iDA with Link as it makes spacing easier and it upps the lethality of his strongest kill option (I'm not kidding when I say that, There is a reason I call it a Dash-Smash)

I'm not saying that people should use moves like that, that is their own playstyle, but calling a move unviable because of one or two traits is not always a good way to go about it, it'd be like me calling Sheik's fair unviable because it does very low damage. Or calling Luma unviable because it can be killed. Both cases are true, Sheik doesn't have much for damage on individual hits and Luma is easy to kill if you know what your doing. But both have appropriate rewards or risks, Sheik's fair is fast, hits in a wide arc, and can carry across the stage, but does low damage because of it. Luma can be killed because it can also kill. In a sense they provide a balanced risk to reward ratio. Same with most slow moves the risk is usually worth the reward.

 

[MarioMeteor]

If we're still talking about Marth buffs:

While Marth is very fabulous, there are still some things holding him back from being as good as he could be.

Spoiler: Forward air

First of all, forward air. That move is rather unrewarding for how lackluster the frame data is.
Active frames - frame 6-8 -> frame 5-8. Landing lag decreased - 16 -> 12. FAF - frame 38 -> frame 36. Angle - 361 -> 65.

While it wouldn't be as godlike as it was in Melee and Brawl, it would still be a more versatile move because of the increased speed, and the new angle would help it synch better with his other moves.

Spoiler: Down air

This move just plain ****ing sucks.

The hitbox at the tip that does 13% has been removed and replaced with the spike hitbox, meaning that tipper down air will always spike no matter what.
FAF - frame 60 -> frame 55, landing lag decreased - 24 frames -> 20 frames.

Spoiler: Throws

Forward throw BKB - 100 -> 80.
Down throw BKB - 95 -> 85.

Essentially, these two will become actual combo throws, instead of whatever they're supposed to be now.

And give him back his Counter quotes.

Copied and pasted from another thread.

Although, I do like **Gilgamesh** 'S idea of having Dancing Blade stall again.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I think a better definition of viable is a move that has at least a break even in risk.

Exactly, as far as I'm aware, those moves are least worthwhile in competitive play.

 

[ElectroLightning]

https://twitter.com/fuyucodachi/status/747474201703964672

...uh...

...what?



And I said viable, not viable with setups before or after it. Besides:

Samus's Bombs need D-Air to work and is only able to keep you in mid-air as a recovery for so long.
Ness's PK Fire isn't viable at all without any setups into other attacks, and opponents can dodge or DI.
Lucas's PK Fire is just worse.
ZSS's D-Smash and Paralyzer usually lead up to what faster, more viable move?
Counter and Cape.
An uncharged beam is not viable, half-charged is annoying but predictable and full charge is insignificant.
And what does Sonic's Homing Attack need to set up from? It could even be detrimental to Sonic.
Leaf Shield is...well...meh...I don't know, it's possibly not even that great when you think about it.
I should have made a rule to where you can't use Charge Moves as examples. You should have put Samus's Charge Shot there too.
Same thing applies to Pac.
What did I say to the last two? Robin's counts too.
Witch Time NEEDED first. Otherwise, it's not a good move.

All of these need setups or have to set up into something else, and other things are just redundant because they come out faster after charging.

Lucas Up Smash?

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

1. Bair Landling Lag Decrease (18 -> 15)
2. Fair Autocancel Window (41> -> 26>) [Lost this in the transition from Brawl -> Smash 4]
3. Jab 1 FAF Reduced (28 -> 22)
4. Jab 2 FAF Reduced (30 -> 26)
5. Vegetable Pull FAF reduced (43 -> 38) [Nerfed in the transition from Brawl -> Smash 4]
6. Dair (Hits 1-3) Damage Increased (2/1 -> 3/2)
7. Dair (Hits 1-3) BKB decreased (13 -> 9)
8. Dair (Hits 1-3) KBG decreased (30 -> 25)
   
9. Dair (Hit 4) BKB decreased (60 -> 50)
10. Dair (Hit 4) KBG decreased (110 -> 80)
11. Dair (Hit 4) Angle change (60 -> 58)

Buffs in Red: Not a necessity but are recommended QoL buffs [Quality of Life]
Buffs in Green: Highly Recommended
Notes:
1.Excessive landing lag she has for her Bair.
2.That Autocancel window is atrocious and needs to be relieved. (Brawl Autocancel window 20>) also because of this horrid nerf she loss one of her main approach options.
3. This improves Peach CQC game which is rather lackluster allowing her to do jab-mix ups more
efficiently and help alleviate rush down characters.
4, Read Note 3^
5. This was an unnecessary and bad nerf to Peach making her have a rather slow projectile game.

6/7/8/9/10/11. - Allows for her Dair to be her main and better combo tool from her floats along with giving her slightly more damage per hit.

Overview of Buffs
1. Gives her main approach option back with Fair not having a notoriously bad Auto-cancel (Smash 4 has many CRAP auto-cancel windows mind you)
2. Improves her CQC through her jab alone
3. Improves the reward she get from using Dair since before this moves becomes rather useless after mid percent due to the move not combo'ing at all along with not killing.
4. Gives back her turnip game which as of now is too slow.

Edit: @Frihetsanka Marth did not get a Top 8 placing at CEO (he was used as a secondary by False who used Sheik through much of the bracket, as Far as I know, he mainly used Marth in Pools and against Anti, Hyuga (he used Marth in 1 game vs Hyuga and got 2-stocked) which he also got dumped on by Anti a clean 3-0 mind you against a Mario....) which was FAR more stacked then Apex 2016 which is not even considered a national by many top players and people on the CCI thread. The highest placing a solo Marth reached was 33rd. Also that chart has flaws that was already addressed by the user, however it does indicate a direction in which the Meta is headed and have give clear view of the Top Tiers accurately enough

 

[MarioMeteor]

1. Peach Airspeed Increased (0.95 -> 1.02) [Matches Marth/Lucina (Current Airspeed]
2. Peach Dash Speed Increased (1.4175 -> 1.45) [Matches Corrin Dash Speed (Still Slow)]
3. Bair Landling Lag Decrease (18 -> 15)
4. Fair Autocancel Window (41> -> 27>)
5. Jab 1 FAF Reduced (28 -> 22)
6. Jab 2 FAF Reduced (30 -> 26)
7. Vegetable Pull FAF reduced (43 -> 38)
8. Up-Tilt Hitbox Sizes increase by 15%
9. Peach Bomber Damage Increase (10 -> 13) - Peach Bomber was damage was nerfed incredibly hard from 15 ->10 with its knockback not compensated properly along with it having more ending lag D:
10. Dair (Hits 1-3) Damage Increased (2/1 -> 3/2)
11. Dair (Hits 1-3) BKB decreased (13 -> 9)
12. Dair (Hits 1-3) KBG decreased (30 -> 25)
    
13. Dair (Hit 4) BKB decreased (60 -> 50)
14. Dair (Hit 4) KBG decreased (110 -> 85)
15. Dair (Hit 4) Angle change (60 -> 58)

Buffs in Red: Not a necessity but are recommended
Buffs in Green: Highly Recommended
Notes:
1.Better Airspeed to help her weave in and out.
2.Slightly better Run-speed to again prevent her from getting walled out so easily
3.Excessive landing lag she has for her Bair.
4.That Autocancel window is atrocious and needs to be relieved. (Brawl Autocancel window 20>) also because of this horrid nerf she loss one of her main approach options.
5. This improves Peach CQC game which is rather lackluster allowing her to do jab-mix ups more
efficiently and help alleviate rush down characters.
6, Read Note 5^
7. This was an unnecessary and bad nerf to Peach making her have a rather slow projectile game.
8. Up-Tilt is rather bad since the hitbox has been nerfed on it (much smaller). This should make the move a better anti-air then it is now.
9. Allows Peach to have a finisher in one of her specials

10/11/12/13/14/15. - Allows for her Dair to be her main and better combo tool from her floats along with giving her slightly more damage per hit.

Overview of Buffs
1. Allows for Peach to deal with walling and Zoning slightly better with the increased mobility.
2. Gives her main approach option back with Fair not having a notoriously bad Auto-cancel (Smash 4 has many CRAP auto-cancel windows mind you)
3. Improves her CQC through her jab alone
4. Improves the reward she get from using Dair since before this moves becomes rather useless after mid percent due to the move not combo'ing at all along with not killing.
5. Increases Peach killing power in her her Side-B which returns as a stock cap finisher.
6. Gives back her turnip game which as of now is too slow.

Edit: @Frihetsanka Marth did not get a Top 8 placing at CEO (he was used as a secondary by False who used Sheik through much of the bracket, as Far as I know, he mainly used Marth in Pools and against Anti, Hyuga (he used Marth in 1 game vs Hyuga and got 2-stocked) which he also got dumped on by Anti a clean 3-0 mind you against a Mario....) which was FAR more stacked then Apex 2016 which is not even considered a national by many top players and people on the CCI thread. The highest placing a solo Marth reached was 33rd. Also that chart has flaws that was already addressed by the user, however it does indicate a direction in which the Meta is headed and have give clear view of the Top Tiers accurately enough

I really don't think Peach needs to be buffed THAT heavily. She's already considered borderline high tier by most.

 

[Radical Larry]

To be fair, you didn't say what your definition of viable was.

I was under the idea that a viable move had to safe on shield.

Yeah, I guess I could have better defined a viable 20+ frame move. Although your moves were good examples of moves to set up from. Link's Dash Attack needs something outside of Bomb that it can reliably set up from, maybe a Frame 18 Boomerang instead of Frame 27 with an FAF of 34?

Lucas Up Smash?

That's a 50/50 chance, so it's an iffy kind of thing.

 

[RedMarf78]

Yeah, I guess I could have better defined a viable 20+ frame move. Although your moves were good examples of moves to set up from. Link's Dash Attack needs something outside of Bomb that it can reliably set up from, maybe a Frame 18 Boomerang instead of Frame 27 with an FAF of 34?



That's a 50/50 chance, so it's an iffy kind of thing.

Villager and MK f-smash, done.

 

[Furret24]

Okay, here's a challenge. Name one move that's 20 frames or higher that's not only viable, but also doesn't do at least 25% damage on shields or goes through them. If you can name one that can do this, you win and I'll retract my statement.

Lmao, this is really easy.

Game and Watch's up smash. Not only is it viable, but it's one of the best up smashes in this the game. I would also say Ganondorf's up smash (arguably the best up smash in the game), but it does more than 25% to shields (24 plus the shield damage multipler of 1.19 means it does 28.56% :V). Meta Knight's forward smash is also really good, one of the best forward smashes on the game. Mewtwo's down smash and Villager's forward is pretty solid too.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Lmao, this is really easy.

Game and Watch's up smash. Not only is it viable, but it's one of the best up smashes in this the game. I would also say Ganondorf's up smash (arguably the best up smash in the game), but it does more than 25% to shields (24 plus the shield damage multipler of 1.19 means it does 28.56% :V). Meta Knight's forward smash is also really good, one of the best forward smashes on the game. Mewtwo's down smash and Villager's forward is pretty solid too.

Arguable is right. Ganondorf's is good, but there are many that do what it does, but better. I think Dr. Mario has the best up smash. It's every bit as ridiculous as Mario's, only stronger.

 

[Furret24]

Arguable is right. Ganondorf's is good, but there are many that do what it does, but better. I think Dr. Mario has the best up smash. It's every bit as ridiculous as Mario's, only stronger.

I think Doc and Mario's are interchangeable. Doc's is better for horizontal kills, while Mario's is better for vertical kills. Doc's also has more range and duration than Mario's bit he has much worse mobility, making dashing up smash less effective for him.

Clearly though, Wario has a better up smash than either of them.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I really don't think Peach needs to be buffed THAT heavily. She's already considered borderline high tier by most.

I still don't really get why Peach suffered a huge air speed nerf after Melee though. Yes, she can levitate for a while, but it doesn't exactly help when you're now barely any faster in the air than when you're on the ground. On the other hand, Peach does have some strong aerial attacks by her side.

 

[anas abou]

Also keep in mind that you would have to buff AT LEAST, Ike, Mewtwo, and Greninja

lol, why would you buff mewtwo he is already so good.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I still don't really get why Peach suffered a huge air speed nerf after Melee though. Yes, she can levitate for a while, but it doesn't exactly help when you're now barely any faster in the air than when you're on the ground. On the other hand, Peach does have some strong aerial attacks by her side.

Taking her stupidly strong forward air, back air, neutral air and unpunishable down air into account, I think the nerf was fair. They probably didn't want her becoming the new Jigglypuff or something like that.

 

[Derpnaster]

lol, why would you buff mewtwo he is already so good.

If footstools were removed?
Simply because Mewtwo actually gets something out of them, so removing them is a direct nerf to him.

Honestly if footstools were removed you would probably have to buff every character or at least every spike in the game to make up for the lack of downward kill options. Also note that footstooling has been in smash at least since Melee, Smash 4 is just the first time they were set to the jump button.