Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[ZeusLink]

Spoiler: One Hell of an Explanation on Suggestions

I know for a fact that the things people will mostly complain about characters would be what the characters have/don't have that are overwhelmingly powerful or very underwhelming in ability. Almost everyone on the competitive boards will talk about Link's sluggish frame data and mobility, as well as Ganondorf's, and say that "if they were faster, they'd be better", and that's true. But here you guys are stating the opposite competitively when it comes to me suggesting things, because apparently because I'm messing with people elsewhere, it means it transfers to here.

But I'd like to point out something about the changes of Frame Data and some damages on Link's attacks, as well as new things for the characters. Link himself needs improvement, for he's still considered slightly bad, and it's all due to his mobility and his frame data, which are considered sluggish and slow. I've suggested Link's overall frame data to be slightly or moderately better, obviously, but nothing too overpowering. Of course, Link's Down Tilt having a meteor hitbox at the tip is meant to allow Link to have better safety and rely more on physical prowess than ranged attacks with some combos, and would add combo capability.

But of course, Back Throw being a reliable kill throw [because it's not even a combo throw whatsoever] instead of his Up Throw [which is not a reliable kill move at all, actually], is a decent thing. Link's Back Throw would kill at around somewhere such as 120% damage on the edge, and 140% center [that is theoretical, however, since I am unsure].

But his Down Aerial, his Down Aerial being reverted to what it was once back in Melee and Brawl is such a bad thing? Is it really a bad thing when his Down Aerial's meteor hitbox is unreliable and very rarely ever used? I'm serious about that last part, because 99% of the time you use Down Aerial with Link, you are going to hit the later hitboxes; it's rare you'll ever meteor an opponent with Down Aerial due to the unsafe nature of it. So instead, the reward for hitting the opponent with D-Air early is something that will even work on stage on opponents; an early hit kills very early. Remember, Down Aerial is still frame 14, which is very predictable, and the earliest hitboxes are 14-17 still, so it'll still be slightly rare to hit that early hitbox, and you're likely to hit the later hitboxes that will kill at higher damages.

Then of course, Boomerang. I've actually got to ask. How is it wrong to have it come out at Frame 19 instead of 27? I mean, it's not like it's going to be less predictable, but it'll still be faster regardless, and this would increase the Boomerang's reliability. Boomerang is a tool meant to be for combos, so having it turn to Frame 19 is something that helps its reliability.

Then you have Jigglypuff's changes, things that Puff needs if they want to be slightly relevant to the game. Because guess what, those changes would make her more balanced. People complained about the Up Throw change I suggested, but really, her change wouldn't be a buff at all, at least at higher damages. People don't realize that Jigglypuff's Up Throw is Weight Dependent, and a weight dependent throw is kind of hard to hit opponents with. Link and Ganondorf's own combo throws are also weight dependent, meaning they're going to have a tougher time combo'ing into their attacks at higher damages on opponents.

As well, Jigglypuff's Up Throw Change makes it to where it links up better with Rest at lower damages, but at higher, possibly medium, damages, her Up Throw will not be able to link into Rest, and it's even possible that the opponent can bring out an attack to punish, move out of the way or even air dodge before Puff can set up for a Rest. And add the weight dependency and you get her new Up Throw, a throw that needs to hit at lower damages.

But I'm not finished with Puff either, for now here comes the Rest attack, as well as the frame data stuff. Yeah, her frame data's better, so what? Admit it, her Smash Attacks are awful with frame data, and slight changes wouldn't be that bad. It's help her without breaking her in the slightest. Then of course, F-Air's change isn't bad, and it's not even overpowering, nor is the B-Air change, which only changes the start-up, not really the FAF per se, but just the start-up, still keeping it slightly slow.

But then here's Ryu, the character no one complains about because they complain about characters like Cloud and Rosalina more, trying to avert the attention from the overpowering things Ryu can have. No really, his Up Tilt is a nightmare on characters who fall fast or are big and can't get out of it, like Falco, Link, Dedede, and even Fox, Falcon and Bowser. That Up Tilt is too fast for its own good, so speed nerfs are certainly needed. Let me also add that Up Tilt leads into Ryu's True Shoryu, which I'll go on later with. Then we have Down Tilt, which kind of goes too fast as well [though I would be lenient on my suggestion and may refute it], but it's meant to link up into combos of course.

Now for Ryu's True Shoryuken. The attack is completely insane and too powerful. I've faced Ryu players who could kill my characters at around 70% to 80% damage, and it links up from Up Tilt, Down Throw and FADC. The damage and base knockback nerf would balance it out so the heavy True Shoryuken, which is always used by people since it's the most efficient, would kill not around 70%, but rather, it can kill at around 110% by my projections. Let's face it, no one uses the regular Shoryuken outside of recovery, and I didn't even nerf that.

Ganondorf's going to be for another time. This has already gotten way too long.

But I'll end with this.

Spoiler: Rant too long, but you'll read it out of curiosity.

There's a need for constructive criticism, not bashing and invalidating someone because they just mess with people in another topic. Secondly, this mod is meant to tighten the margin for character balance and viability, so really, what this mod can really do is make the more overpowering characters less overpowering and the underwhelming characters even better than they are. And of course, I have to say this before I post it.

There's such a thing called testing out the results of everything, there's also heavy research, so whenever a suggestion is there, it should be taken at heart and face value to be tested for its viability to see if it's overwhelming or makes the character horrible by comparison. Instead of bashing on my suggestions, let people test the suggestions out in a serious manner and give their critique and suggestions. Constructive criticism is meant to help people make better changes, and I've been looking at literally every post before the last suggestions, and I've taken them seriously and I've changed my most ridiculous posts to something that's better than before. But instead of you guys taking this the right way with offering some help and actual constructive criticism, some instead pull a hypocrite card [and I know who you are], and then some instead start bashing me and calling me a troll confirmed.

Really and truly, you guys are worse than me in the competitive impressions [which I have not been in since I've joined Smashcord], and that's saying something. By not doing the correct responses and offering constructive criticism, and even give legitimate opinions on why the change suggestions should instead be another suggestion, then going on to bash me on my suggestions, you have done nothing but stoop to my level, if not lower than it. So why is it that I'm the troll when you guys do the same thing that you say I do? That doesn't make any sense at all, does it?

I can't see, either why no one whines about Ryu. With Link against a pro Ryu player, it's almost impossible to get him offstage to start off with. Plus, Ryu is deadly. If you're a pro Ryu player, his weakness isn't much to worry about. I just wait for him to make a mistake before attacking.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Being a projectile spammer doesn't exactly work if your opponent can "easily" get at your face and smack you down.

 

[Derpnaster]

Being a projectile spammer doesn't exactly work if your opponent can "easily" get at your face and smack you down.

Yeah if they can easily get in your face you're not spamming right. The very idea of spam is to keep the other guy off you, otherwise it's more bait and punish or bad zoning

 

[Deleted member]

I think you misunderstood me. I’m not saying that the mod should be balanced for free for all with items on or anything like that. I’m still talking about 1v1, tournament legal stages, no items, 2 stock.

We’ve discussed this in the thread earlier, although I suppose it doesn’t hurt to bring this up again: Trying to push this mod into being used at big tournaments is most likely not going to happen. For one thing, it might upset Nintendo/Sora/Namco. Another reason is that modding your Wii U takes some effort and not all TO would be willing to do that, and many/most tournament players wouldn't either. This is assuming the mod wouldn’t be controversial.

This mod will be controversial. Some will feel that the game was fine the way it was and shouldn’t be changed. Some will feel that the buffs were too much and that some characters are OP now (whether or not it’s actually true). If there are nerfs, then some/many players of those characters will be upset.

So, how will the mod be used? I see two main uses:

#1: Playing with your friends. This will be the main use.

#2: Some small tournaments might be possible in some areas, although I suspect those will be rare and won’t have all too many players. I highly doubt we’ll see players like ZeRo, Nairo, or Ally in those tournaments.

The fact of the matter is, chances are most competitive players will skip this mod. It’s not going to help them win tournaments (unless you argue that practicing versus a stronger Palutena makes you better at fighting a weaker in tournaments. This is one of the reasons top tiers shouldn’t get nerfed. Practicing against a weaker Cloud is going to make it harder to beat him in a tournament).

You might be right, which is the sad part. Even though I plan on making my own mod, as a fellow modder, I hope that this game becomes more than just a "With-Friends" thing.

 

[anas abou]

I'm finishing this post. And I'm updating it with a few changes obviously. And of course, adding Ryu, Ganondorf and Puff.

Spoiler: Ganondorf

• Attribute Statistics:
  • Weight Increased: 113 => 125
  • Run Speed Increased: 1.218 => 1.34
  • Walk Speed Increased: 0.73 => 0.99
  • Air Speed Increased: 0.79 => 0.88
  • Jumpsquat Decreased: 7 Frames => 5 Frames
• Ground Moves [Normals]:
  • Jab Attack:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frames 7-8 => Frames 3-4
    • FAF Decreased: 29 Frames => 20 Frames
    • Damages Decreased [Body to Tip]: 6/8/10% => 5/7/8%
  • Forward Tilt:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frames 10-12 => Frames 8-10
    • Damage Decreased: 13% => 11%
  • Up Tilt:
    • Super Armor Frames Added: Frames 6-95
  • Down Tilt:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frames 10-12 => Frames 7-9
    • FAF Decreased: 36 => 32
    • Angles Changed [Body to Foot]: 80/70/60 => 90/80/20
• Smash Attacks:
  • Up Smash:
    • New Hitbox Added:
      • Start-Up: Frames 12-13
      • Damage: 12%
      • Angle: 90 Degrees
      • Base Knockback: 15
      • Knockback Growth: 30
  • Down Smash:
    • Hit 1 Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 15-18 => Frames 12-15
    • Hit 2 Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 35-38 => Frames 30-33
    • Hit 1 Angles Changed: 160/140/154/50 => 160/150/160/150
• Grabs:
  • Standing Grab Start-Up Decreased: Frames 7-8 => Frames 6-7
  • Standing Grab FAF Decreased: 36 Frames => 30 Frames
  • Standing Grab Range Increased by 2.5 Units
  • Dash Grab Start-Up Decreased: Frames 11-12 => Frames 9-10
  • Dash Grab FAF Decreased: 45 Frames => 40 Frames
  • Dash Grab Range Increased by 2 Units
  • Pivot Grab FAF Decreased: 42 Frames => 38 Frames
  • Pivot Grab Range Increased by 3 Units
• Throws:
  • Forward Throw:
    • Hit 2 Damage Increased: 8% => 11%
    • Knockback Growth Increased: 65 => 110
  • Back Throw:
    • Hit 2 Damage Increased: 5% => 10%
  • Up Throw:
    • Base Knockback Decreased: 70 => 30
    • Knockback Growth Decreased: 105 => 35
    • Angle Changed: 90 Degrees => 55 Degrees
  • Down Throw:
    • Base Knockback Decreased: 70 => 50
    • Knockback Growth Decreased: 50 => 25
    • Angle Changed: 65 Degrees => 85 Degrees
• Aerials:
  • Forward Aerial:
    • Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 14-19 => Frames 12-17
    • Auto-Cancel Frames Decreased: Frame 55 => Frame 27
  • Back Aerial:
    • Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 10-12 => Frames 8-10
  • Down Aerial:
    • Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 16-18 => Frames 14-16
    • Auto-Cancel Frames Decreased: Frame 32 => Frame 25
    • Damages Increased: 19/17% => 22/19%
• Specials:
  • Warlock Punch:
    • Normal Grounded Damage Increased: 30% => 35%
    • Normal Aerial Damage Increased: 38% => 42%
    • B-Reversed Grounded Damage Increased: 38% => 45%
    • B-Reversed Aerial Damage Increased: 40% => 60%
    • B-Reversed Grounded and Aerial Knockback Growth Increased: 100 => 150
  • Flame Choke:
    • Grounded Start-Up Decreased: Frames 16-30 => Frame 10-26
    • Grounded Grab Boxes Active Increased: Frame 10-26 => Frame 10-45
    • Aerial Start-Up Decreased: Frames 19-31 => Frames 13-25
    • Aerial Grab Boxes Active Increased: Frame 13-25 => Frame 13-39
    • Aerial Recovery Distance increased by 40%
  • Dark Dive:
    • Attack Knockback Growth Increased: 90 => 110
    • Aerial Recovery Vertical Distance increased by 40%
    • Aerial Recovery Horizontal Distance increased by 50%

Thanks to @KuroganeHammer having a mistake on Ganondorf's page with Dark Dive, I cannot tell if the Attack on Dark Dive means the final hit of the grab attack or the apex punch of the attack. Whichever one it was, dude, please fix that.

But as for Ganondorf and Link, my statements earlier about their movesets and mobility stand, they need the changes and I've become more lenient on the thoughts of others. I've even decreased many things with the characters over the course of time, and you'd notice it too.

Spoiler: Ryu

• Attribute Statistics:
  • Run Speed Decreased: 1.6 => 1.47
  • Air Speed Decreased: 1.12 => 1.08
  • Gravity Increased:0.12 => 0.1285
• Ground Moves [Normals]:
  • Up Tilt [Light]:
    • Start-Up Increased: Frames 3-6 => Frames 5-8
    • FAF Increased: 15 Frames => 22 Frames
    • Base Knockback Increased: 19 => 20
    • Knockback Growth Increased: 94 => 110
    • Angle Changed: 84/105 Degrees => 45/70 Degrees
  • Down Tilt [Light]:
    • Start-Up Increased: Frames 2-3 => Frames 4-5
    • FAF Increased: 16 Frames => 20 Frames
• Aerials:
  • Down Aerial:
    • Landing Lag Increased: 18 Frames => 27 Frames
• Specials:
  • Shoryuken:
    • • Light:
        • Damage Decreased: 13% => 10%
        • True Damage Decreased: 15.6% => 12%
      • Medium:
        • Damage Decreased: 14% => 11%
        • True Damage Decreased: 16.8% => 13.2%
      • Heavy:
        • Damage Decreased: 15% => 12%
        • True Damage Decreased: 18% => 14.4%
      • All:
        • Base Knockback Decreased: 80 => 70

Let's face it Ryu's moveset was too overpowering in a nutshell, but while this nerfs his tilting combo potential into True Shoryu, as well as D-Air shenanigans, we can essentially make Ryu players in this mod play smart. This, however, doesn't go against any other attacks that are good for Ryu, as well as other combos, so in the end, Ryu will be more balanced. As well, a gravity increase will have to keep Ryu players on edge with jumps and may decrease recovery.

Spoiler: Jigglypuff

• Attribute Statistics:
  • Jumpsquat Frames Decreased: 6 Frames => 4 Frames
• Smash Attacks:
  • Forward Smash:
    • Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 16-19 => Frames 12-15
    • FAF Decreased: 50 Frames => 42 Frames
    • Damage Increased: 15% => 16%
  • Up Smash:
    • Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 16-19 => Frames 12-15
    • FAF Decreased: 46 Frames => 38 Frames
  • Down Smash:
    • FAF Decreased: 49 Frames => 39 Frames
• Throws:
  • Back Throw:
    • Base Knockback Increased: 25 => 30
    • Knockback Growth Increased: 90 => 120
  • Up Throw:
    • Knockback Growth Decreased: 110 => 50
  • Down Throw:
    • Base Knockback Decreased: 45 => 25
    • Knockback Growth Decreased: 100 => 50
• Aerials:
  • Forward Aerial:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frames 8-9 => Frames 6-7
    • FAF Decreased: 37 Frames => 30 Frames
  • Back Aerial:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frames 12-13 => Frame 9-10
• Specials:
  • Pound:
    • Hitbox Active Frames Increased: 13-28 => 8-33
    • FAF Decreased: 46 Frames => 37 Frames
  • Rest:
    • Hitbox Active Frames Increased: 2-4 => 1-8
    • Knockback Growth Increased: 66 => 74
    • Angle Changed: 88 Degrees => 30 Degrees

Basically the opposite of Ryu.

SMH, these changes are so bad, did you even test these, jigglypuff having down throw to rest is not okay and bair fair need more range not frame data, ganon is way too overbuffed (seriously frame 3 jab are you drunk) way to too good frame data, ryu only really needed less damage on fair/bair and a slightly weaker shoryu not a ridiculous 27 frames of landing lag on dair and he really doesn't need to be any slower.

 

[Grandpoobah]

My apologies, I am new here, and have not yet learned how to edit.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Are we balancing custom moves, too? Cause those things are even more jacked up than the characters themselves.

 

[Frihetsanka]

You might be right, which is the sad part. Even though I plan on making my own mod, as a fellow modder, I hope that this game becomes more than just a "With-Friends" thing.

I'm going to assume you meant "mod" and not "game", since the game already has a pretty good tournament presence. As for the mod, while it would be pretty cool if tournaments decided to use it, it's unfortunately really, really unlikely.

 

[Respect38]

Are we balancing custom moves, too? Cause those things are even more jacked up than the characters themselves.

I don't think that it should be immediate priority, but that alongside fixing jank stages into legal ones should be a goal eventually. +++

 

[Deleted member]

I'm going to assume you meant "mod" and not "game", since the game already has a pretty good tournament presence. As for the mod, while it would be pretty cool if tournaments decided to use it, it's unfortunately really, really unlikely.

After Project M I view the two as synonyms. This is the internet, bro, nothing is as it seems.

 

[Radical Larry]

What's really odd is that the Ganondorf Discord chat [you know, where the Ganondorf professionals and semi-professionals go to] actually LIKED the suggestions I made for Ganondorf. All except for one, and it's Up Tilt's Super Armor. No, it wasn't overpowering in thought, but rather, they'd just suggest it be faster and less powerful. As for Link, I'm still discussing with the Discord, but a couple people do like the suggestions I made. So let's think for a moment. Which has more weight? Professionals or normal, every day people here who constantly bash my suggestions despite them not being so bad?

Also, I'll be talking more about the other things about Ryu, specifically, later.

 

[Derpnaster]

well your appealing to authority logical fallacy along with your loaded question logical fallacy don't really do much to further your argument. And honestly we were done with discussion on new suggestions a page or two ago. So if all you have are simple arguments as to why is "Ordinary People" should just accept your opinions as the final say in suggestions, then please cease cluttering up the thread so others can discuss relevant topics.

And if you don't believe me on the above statement about your argument I will break it down here

What's really odd is that the Ganondorf Discord chat [you know, where the Ganondorf professionals and semi-professionals go to]

The first part of the statement is itself not bad, on it's own this would have been a help to your argument. However the moment you inserted everything in the brackets the statement turned into an appeal to authority.
By stating that the Pro and Semi-pro players hang out there you attempted to validate your own argument not on it's own merits, rather on the fact that they are pro and semi-pro players.

So let's think for a moment. Which has more weight? Professionals or normal, every day people here who constantly bash my suggestions despite them not being so bad?

This entire line was designed to target Us, your critics, and make us appear to be incompetent fools who know nothing, and while such arguments are common, the application of it in a question makes it a logical fallacy as no matter how we the critics attempt to answer, we will answer it wrong or be forced to a set conclusion that is decidedly in your favor. When holding discussions such questions are best to avoid as they only serve the opposite of what Is intended and they make you appear to be slightly bitter that we, your critics, have offered criticism, which though some was a little harsh, most followed a consistent trend and theory that you happened to disagree with.

 

[Deleted member]

well your appealing to authority logical fallacy along with your loaded question logical fallacy don't really do much to further your argument. And honestly we were done with discussion on new suggestions a page or two ago. So if all you have are simple arguments as to why is "Ordinary People" should just accept your opinions as the final say in suggestions, then please cease cluttering up the thread so others can discuss relevant topics.

And if you don't believe me on the above statement about your argument I will break it down here



The first part of the statement is itself not bad, on it's own this would have been a help to your argument. However the moment you inserted everything in the brackets the statement turned into an appeal to authority.
By stating that the Pro and Semi-pro players hang out there you attempted to validate your own argument not on it's own merits, rather on the fact that they are pro and semi-pro players.



This entire line was designed to target Us, your critics, and make us appear to be incompetent fools who know nothing, and while such arguments are common, the application of it in a question makes it a logical fallacy as no matter how we the critics attempt to answer, we will answer it wrong or be forced to a set conclusion that is decidedly in your favor. When holding discussions such questions are best to avoid as they only serve the opposite of what Is intended and they make you appear to be slightly bitter that we, your critics, have offered criticism, which though some was a little harsh, most followed a consistent trend and theory that you happened to disagree with.

You seem to have really got this down. Muy bueno, amigo.

 

[Xinc]

I'm finishing this post. And I'm updating it with a few changes obviously. And of course, adding Ryu, Ganondorf and Puff.

Spoiler: Ganondorf

• Attribute Statistics:
  • Weight Increased: 113 => 125
  • Run Speed Increased: 1.218 => 1.34
  • Walk Speed Increased: 0.73 => 0.99
  • Air Speed Increased: 0.79 => 0.88
  • Jumpsquat Decreased: 7 Frames => 5 Frames
• Ground Moves [Normals]:
  • Jab Attack:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frames 7-8 => Frames 3-4
    • FAF Decreased: 29 Frames => 20 Frames
    • Damages Decreased [Body to Tip]: 6/8/10% => 5/7/8%
  • Forward Tilt:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frames 10-12 => Frames 8-10
    • Damage Decreased: 13% => 11%
  • Up Tilt:
    • Super Armor Frames Added: Frames 6-95
  • Down Tilt:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frames 10-12 => Frames 7-9
    • FAF Decreased: 36 => 32
    • Angles Changed [Body to Foot]: 80/70/60 => 90/80/20
• Smash Attacks:
  • Up Smash:
    • New Hitbox Added:
      • Start-Up: Frames 12-13
      • Damage: 12%
      • Angle: 90 Degrees
      • Base Knockback: 15
      • Knockback Growth: 30
  • Down Smash:
    • Hit 1 Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 15-18 => Frames 12-15
    • Hit 2 Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 35-38 => Frames 30-33
    • Hit 1 Angles Changed: 160/140/154/50 => 160/150/160/150
• Grabs:
  • Standing Grab Start-Up Decreased: Frames 7-8 => Frames 6-7
  • Standing Grab FAF Decreased: 36 Frames => 30 Frames
  • Standing Grab Range Increased by 2.5 Units
  • Dash Grab Start-Up Decreased: Frames 11-12 => Frames 9-10
  • Dash Grab FAF Decreased: 45 Frames => 40 Frames
  • Dash Grab Range Increased by 2 Units
  • Pivot Grab FAF Decreased: 42 Frames => 38 Frames
  • Pivot Grab Range Increased by 3 Units
• Throws:
  • Forward Throw:
    • Hit 2 Damage Increased: 8% => 11%
    • Knockback Growth Increased: 65 => 110
  • Back Throw:
    • Hit 2 Damage Increased: 5% => 10%
  • Up Throw:
    • Base Knockback Decreased: 70 => 30
    • Knockback Growth Decreased: 105 => 35
    • Angle Changed: 90 Degrees => 55 Degrees
  • Down Throw:
    • Base Knockback Decreased: 70 => 50
    • Knockback Growth Decreased: 50 => 25
    • Angle Changed: 65 Degrees => 85 Degrees
• Aerials:
  • Forward Aerial:
    • Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 14-19 => Frames 12-17
    • Auto-Cancel Frames Decreased: Frame 55 => Frame 27
  • Back Aerial:
    • Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 10-12 => Frames 8-10
  • Down Aerial:
    • Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 16-18 => Frames 14-16
    • Auto-Cancel Frames Decreased: Frame 32 => Frame 25
    • Damages Increased: 19/17% => 22/19%
• Specials:
  • Warlock Punch:
    • Normal Grounded Damage Increased: 30% => 35%
    • Normal Aerial Damage Increased: 38% => 42%
    • B-Reversed Grounded Damage Increased: 38% => 45%
    • B-Reversed Aerial Damage Increased: 40% => 60%
    • B-Reversed Grounded and Aerial Knockback Growth Increased: 100 => 150
  • Flame Choke:
    • Grounded Start-Up Decreased: Frames 16-30 => Frame 10-26
    • Grounded Grab Boxes Active Increased: Frame 10-26 => Frame 10-45
    • Aerial Start-Up Decreased: Frames 19-31 => Frames 13-25
    • Aerial Grab Boxes Active Increased: Frame 13-25 => Frame 13-39
    • Aerial Recovery Distance increased by 40%
  • Dark Dive:
    • Attack Knockback Growth Increased: 90 => 110
    • Aerial Recovery Vertical Distance increased by 40%
    • Aerial Recovery Horizontal Distance increased by 50%

.

I personally think even with this Ganondorf will still struggle a lot. It helps him in more close combat but he's still susceptible to punishes he makes by approaching, as well as being smacked around from camping projectiles.

 

[Deleted member]

I personally think even with this Ganondorf will still struggle a lot. It helps him in more close combat but he's still susceptible to punishes he makes by approaching, as well as being smacked around from camping projectiles.

The problem with mostly all modders and semi-modders is that their changes are too subtle. Sometimes that can work, but characters like Ganon require more than just "Lag: 40 -> 38" to make them good. People have to be willing to make noticeable and sometimes even drastic changes in order to achieve true balance

 

[JWai]

Something to keep in mind (and something I learned myself a while ago) is that when balancing characters, the goal should also include staying true to that character's design. Take Mewtwo for example. He's a glass cannon that needs to play defensively as well as offensively to win. The buffs he received focused on keeping that design of being a powerful glass cannon without sacrificing balance. And this is where the issue with balancing characters like Ganondorf, Zelda, King DDD, etc, come in. How can Ganondorf be buffed so that he keeps his design of being slow but powerful? How does DDD keep his design of whatever he is? How should Zelda be changed to keep her core design? Their flaws can't be addressed through something like hitbox changes, frame data changes, and attribute changes. These characters would need entire moves reworked or outright removed and substituted with a new one. It's easy to balance characters like Pac-Man, Robin, Roy, Link, Samus because all they really need are just changes ranging from Marth's 1.1.4 tweaks to Mewtwo's 1.1.3/1.1.5 fixes. The bottom of the barrel guys though? They need significant overhauls to keep true tob their design while making them viable.

 

[Gigan X3]

Maybe making some attacks become multi hit, add some armor or other special behaviors would help?

 

[Radical Larry]

I personally think even with this Ganondorf will still struggle a lot. It helps him in more close combat but he's still susceptible to punishes he makes by approaching, as well as being smacked around from camping projectiles.

Think about it this way with Ganondorf himself. I'm still keeping him the extremely slow character he is [he's still bottom 10 in mobility overall], while also reverting some things back to the past and aiding him in getting into opponents better. His lack of projectiles and still-inability to do much about them is still going to be a problem, but with a fixed grab range, a better get-off-me move with Jab, and definitely mobility of all things, Ganondorf's a better character for CQC, which he should excel at.

Bettering his frame data would still keep him true to his design, and him having his mobility back is something that was once in his design. His Brawl aerial speed was 0.846, and his Melee running speed was 1.35, so I made his attributes somewhat resemble the combination of his best while keeping true to him. A Frame 5 jump-squat was made because literally every character should have it or lower, and I don't know why I want the weight increase, but I guess it has something to do something with his armor.

With Ganondorf's Frame Data, I wanted it to be moderately faster outside of jab, and even with the buffs to frame data, I still took some damages away [I should have actually taken a lot more damage away, I forgot about it on some of them], and it's all to keep fair in his design of slow and powerful. The frame data changes are fair and still subtle, but are very noticeable when time does come.

I'm going to redo my suggestions to where everyone will be satisfied, and maybe the modder could consider it all to be in, and maybe we could test them out and see which ones shouldn't stay. That could work, having people test it out to see if it's overpowering or useless on a character.

 

[MarioMeteor]

What's really odd is that the Ganondorf Discord chat [you know, where the Ganondorf professionals and semi-professionals go to] actually LIKED the suggestions I made for Ganondorf. All except for one, and it's Up Tilt's Super Armor. No, it wasn't overpowering in thought, but rather, they'd just suggest it be faster and less powerful. As for Link, I'm still discussing with the Discord, but a couple people do like the suggestions I made. So let's think for a moment. Which has more weight? Professionals or normal, every day people here who constantly bash my suggestions despite them not being so bad?

Also, I'll be talking more about the other things about Ryu, specifically, later.

So, you went to the Ganondorf discord where you proposed outrageous buffs for Ganondorf, and they liked them. Did you take a second to think about why that is?

 

[ElectroLightning]

How about these Ganon buffs?


Ground Attacks
Down Smash: Removal of thigh hitbox
Reason: Most of the Ganon mains know about Ganon's jank thigh hitbox (the one that doesn't chain into the second hit). This allows Down Smash to link properly all of the time.

Aerial Attacks
Neutral Air: Landing lag decreased from 17 to 14
Reason: This allows Neutral Air to be a better approach option, and makes Ganon safe when landing with the 1st hit of Neutral Air (but not safe enough to grant followups).

Forward Air: Auto-cancel window changed from <55 to <42
Reason: This allows Forward Air to auto-cancel in a full hop, so Ganon can finally use this move without suffering 22 frames of landing lag.

Special Attacks
Dark Dive (Up Special): Angle changed from 361° to 20°
Reason: Even though Dark Dive was buffed in terms of damage in 1.1.3, it is still one of Ganon's more useless moves. This changes Dark Dive to be a powerful semi-spike, giving it some utility against people trying to edge-guard Ganon (or for disrespect ).

Grabs / Throws
Standing Grab: Hitbox size changed from 2.75 to 3.10
Reason: This increases Ganon's terrible grab range (the worst in the game) to a poor but usable one. This makes it whiff less during shield grab attempts. Ganon's dash and pivot grab I chose to keep unchanged, as their range is somewhat manageable.

Dash Grab: Grab hitbox duration changed from 11-12 to 10-11, FAF decreased from 45 to 41
Reason: This makes Ganon's dash grab come out a little quicker and end a little sooner, so that Ganondorf has a bit of an easier time against campers or spammers that like to hold shield.

Pummel: Damage increased from 3% to 4%
Reason: Considering that Ganon can usually get at maximum two pummels in, this makes getting grabbed by him a bit more threatening.

Back Throw: BKB increased from 30 to 60
Reason: This makes Back Throw a solid kill option at about 130%, giving him an actual kill throw. This, again, is a buff to makes his grabs more threatening.

Up Throw: Second hit damage increased from 3% to 5%
Reason: This gives Up Throw some utility as an alternate kill throw on platforms. The damage also amounts to 12%, which makes it a decent damage dealer similar to Forward Throw.

Other
Run Speed: Increase from 1.218 to 1.312
Reason: This makes Ganon run at the same speed as Dr. Mario, which allows him to punish and follow-up better for combos.

Air Speed: Increase from .79 to .88
Reason: This slightly improves horizontal recovery and neutral game. It allows Ganon to fully capitalize on his powerful aerials, which when combined with better aerial approach buffs would give him a better time against campers.

Guys, semi-spike Dark Dive needs to happen.

 

[Derpnaster]

It's amazing for Link, it's a hard punish tool and good for forcing airdodges or general positioning. Alos a ery powerful kill move even on a late hit.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Something to keep in mind (and something I learned myself a while ago) is that when balancing characters, the goal should also include staying true to that character's design. Take Mewtwo for example. He's a glass cannon that needs to play defensively as well as offensively to win. The buffs he received focused on keeping that design of being a powerful glass cannon without sacrificing balance. And this is where the issue with balancing characters like Ganondorf, Zelda, King DDD, etc, come in. How can Ganondorf be buffed so that he keeps his design of being slow but powerful? How does DDD keep his design of whatever he is? How should Zelda be changed to keep her core design? Their flaws can't be addressed through something like hitbox changes, frame data changes, and attribute changes. These characters would need entire moves reworked or outright removed and substituted with a new one. It's easy to balance characters like Pac-Man, Robin, Roy, Link, Samus because all they really need are just changes ranging from Marth's 1.1.4 tweaks to Mewtwo's 1.1.3/1.1.5 fixes. The bottom of the barrel guys though? They need significant overhauls to keep true tob their design while making them viable.

Not Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff just needs more than four useable moves.

 

[JWai]

While I understand your point, it doesn't always have to function that way. Smash Reborn (my Brawl mod) got good reception despite the fact that it blatantly put Balance over Uniqueness. In fact, characters were sectioned into Fast/Weak, All Around, and Strong/Slow, and that's exactly what people loved about that game. While I understand the importance of retaining some uniqueness (since it contributes to defining a character), I don't find absolute uniqueness to be essential. Take Falcon for example, he is a fast-falling fast/strong character with a decent weight value and passable recovery. Compare that Mewtwo, who is a slow-falling slow/average-to-strong character with a horrible weight value, oversized and ridiculous hurtboxes, and a glitchy recovery. Should that be retained just because it makes them "unique"? No, it shouldn't. It is okay to like diversity, but at a certain point, you'll have to make sacrifices if you want true balance. I'm not saying to make this into Reborn (I can do that myself ), I'm simply saying that some uniqueness will be lost.

On the topic of changing moves entirely, though, I completely agree. Who thought it was a good idea to give Link/Shulk that horrible Up-Air?

I didn't mean making them 100% unique, but keeping them true to their character archetypes, like how characters like Ike and Ganon are slow, powerful fighters (though Ike is very fast for a heavyweight), or Fox and Sheik being fast, in-your-face fighters. It's true that for balance, some sacrifices have to be made (Bowser, aka grab2win), that's definitely true.

If Sm4sh modding were as developed as Brawl modding, I'd say just change some characters into a completely different type like how Lucario went from a combo fighter to Gimmickario.

Not Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff just needs more than four useable moves.

Jigglypuff just needs a better air game and reliable ways to handle shields imo. Only bottom tier that doesn't need drastic changes

 

[Xinc]

Think about it this way with Ganondorf himself. I'm still keeping him the extremely slow character he is [he's still bottom 10 in mobility overall], while also reverting some things back to the past and aiding him in getting into opponents better. His lack of projectiles and still-inability to do much about them is still going to be a problem, but with a fixed grab range, a better get-off-me move with Jab, and definitely mobility of all things, Ganondorf's a better character for CQC, which he should excel at.

Bettering his frame data would still keep him true to his design, and him having his mobility back is something that was once in his design. His Brawl aerial speed was 0.846, and his Melee running speed was 1.35, so I made his attributes somewhat resemble the combination of his best while keeping true to him. A Frame 5 jump-squat was made because literally every character should have it or lower, and I don't know why I want the weight increase, but I guess it has something to do something with his armor.

With Ganondorf's Frame Data, I wanted it to be moderately faster outside of jab, and even with the buffs to frame data, I still took some damages away [I should have actually taken a lot more damage away, I forgot about it on some of them], and it's all to keep fair in his design of slow and powerful. The frame data changes are fair and still subtle, but are very noticeable when time does come.

I'm going to redo my suggestions to where everyone will be satisfied, and maybe the modder could consider it all to be in, and maybe we could test them out and see which ones shouldn't stay. That could work, having people test it out to see if it's overpowering or useless on a character.

No I mean your proposed mods on Ganon are fine, for the most part.

So, you went to the Ganondorf discord where you proposed outrageous buffs for Ganondorf, and they liked them. Did you take a second to think about why that is?

I main Ganon, yes, but I'm remaining impartial. My opinion of the proposed changes are not bad stands.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Jigglypuff just needs a better air game and reliable ways to handle shields imo. Only bottom tier that doesn't need drastic changes

Her air game is acceptable, it's her ground game that's atrocious. It's supposed to be inferior to her air game yes, but it doesn't have to suck as hard as it does. What's more, she needs ways to finish off stocks that aren't Rest or back air.

My opinion of the proposed changes are not bad stands.

I'm sorry?

 

[Xinc]

Her air game is acceptable, it's her ground game that's atrocious. It's supposed to be inferior to her air game yes, but it doesn't have to suck as hard as it does. What's more, she needs ways to finish off stocks that aren't Rest or back air.

I'm sorry?

Sorry, bad language took control of me for a moment. Regarding Larry's Ganon changes, I don't think they're bad. They address many of Ganon's weak points, but Ganon still has his core weaknesses.

 

[Slayonettaz]

This is honestly just turning into troll after troll after troll. Why can't we actually focus on the objective? I suggest we buff the low-tiers to make them more viable as we are doing, and then maybe nerf the S-tiers slightly but not by much. Even then I'd be totally fine with leaving them as they are. For example, 1.1.6 Bayo. Yes, as a Bayo main I was upset that she was nerfed this hard, but after adapting to it and changing my overall playstyle, she's fine as she is. Cloud might need a change here and there but he's not incredibly broken either. Ryu isn't broken at all. Shoryu is ridiculous yes, but he's a character that requires a lot of frame perfect inputs and yes, it chains out of a lot of things, and Pro Ryus can be scary, but saying to nerf a character just because your Low Tier can't deal with it is complete BS. Obviously your Low Tier won't be able to deal with a High Tier, that's just how it is. Matchups are the way they are for a reason.
I'll admit, I play a ton of Low Tiers as well, but at the end of the day, I main Peach: a mid-high tier, and Bayo:a top tier not only for their reward, but also because they're fun characters imo. Play who you want yes, but don't whine just because the character you want to play isn't good.

TL;DR: If they need buffs, ask for buffs on them, not nerfs on others.

 

[RedMarf78]

Characters without projectiles or really fast run speeds always have trouble against projectile users. Since Ganon'd both slow and lack a reflector to make him usable against projectiles you'd either have to give him a move that can volley back projectiles or do something like make grounded wizard's foot have super armor.

Also I think that Ryu is completely fine though I wish true shoryu had some landing lag

 

[Zerp]

So, I apologize if this has been asked and answered before but I've been having this question in the back of my mind for a while and I've been searching for a answer but couldn't find any, so, exactly how "viable" are we aiming to make the characters, anyway? I understand we're aiming to make characters "high tier" but how high are we drawing that line? If I'm proposing suggestions to character X, am I trying to make them more like Mario or more like say, Ness in terms of viability? Sorry for the confusion.

 

[MarioMeteor]

So, I apologize if this has been asked and answered before but I've been having this question in the back of my mind for a while and I've been searching for a answer but couldn't find any, so, exactly how "viable" are we aiming to make the characters, anyway? I understand we're aiming to make characters "high tier" but how high are we drawing that line? If I'm proposing suggestions to character X, am I trying to make them more like Mario or more like say, Ness in terms of viability? Sorry for the confusion.

Like Jigglypuff, obviously.
I imagine that around Mario's level would be acceptable. He's very viable, but it's because he's a well-designed character, and not because he can kill you at 80% with a back throw.

Characters without projectiles or really fast run speeds always have trouble against projectile users. Since Ganon'd both slow and lack a reflector to make him usable against projectiles you'd either have to give him a move that can volley back projectiles or do something like make grounded wizard's foot have super armor.

Also I think that Ryu is completely fine though I wish true shoryu had some landing lag

Or legalize customs and use Wizard's Dropkick.

 

[Vincent_Leo]

I was told by a Moderator I should post this here, so here goes...

I've been reading around the Sm4sh Forums here, and people want to create their own balance patch, and I'm here with the skills to implement most of these changes!

Ever since I've started playing Sm4sh and seeing the tier list, I've been wanting to make a balance overhaul to the majority of the cast. I would also like to eventually fix/remove/adjust various things that are jank about Sm4sh (Ex: Rage, Footstooling, Glitches, etc) when the tools are available.

My goal is to make every character viable in at least one way or another with no character being too bad to even bother with (Ex: Palutena, Zelda, Ganondorf, etc) or too broken to even bother with (i.e. Bayonetta) (Bayonetta's been heavily nerfed in Patch 1.1.6, so this part is redundant). Lower tier characters will be subject to various buffs, while higher tier characters will be left alone for the most part (unless an official patch overnerfed something and/or if something about them is broken).

The best I can do right now if Frame data, Attribute, and Hitbox edits, so Floating Point-related things (Ex: Witch Time, Counter damage multipliers, etc) cannot be changed at this current time until they're properly identified.

Download (New): https://www.dropbox.com/s/mdo57fc8qlhuwkr/Patch 1.1.7 - The Fan Patch.zip?dl=0

Feel free to give your own thoughts and suggestions, but try to explain in the best way possible why you want something changed. What I need the most right now is a sense of direction and criticism for my current edits.

Credits:
-SilentDo0m. Suggested edits for Charizard, Roy, Shulk, Little Mac, and Mewtwo.
-Marioking64DS. Suggested edits for Wario.
-DarkLordRS. Suggested edits for Mii Gunner.
-Palutena and Dedede Boards (SmashBoards). Ideas taken from discussion threads.
-Zikkh Suggested edits for King Dedede.
-Kienamaru. Suggested edits for Zelda.
-Yoshister. Suggested edits for Dr. Mario.

You can see the current changes in the spoiler below.

DISCLAIMER: These changes are not final, and are subject to change.

Update (May 20th, 2016): Zelda changes have been added!

Update (May 21st, 2016): Minor edits to Little Mac's Rapid Jab.

Update (May 23rd, 2016): Dr. Mario changes have been added!

Color coding:
New.
Updated.
May/Will be revised.
May/Will be removed.

Spoiler

Diddy Kong

Spoiler

• Up Air:
  • Damage: 6 -> 7
  • Angle: 76 -> 75
  • BKB: 64 -> 54
  • KBG: 89 -> 99
• Down Throw:
  • Angle: 106 -> 105
  • KBG: 59 -> 40

Roy

Spoiler

• Walk Max Velocity: 1.1.5 -> 1.2
• Initial Dash Velocity: 1.4 -> 1.5
• Air Acceleration: 0.03 -> 0.05
• Jump V Initial Velocity: 30.97 -> 33.97
• Hop V Initial Velocity: 13 -> 15
• Jab:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 5 - 8 -> Frame 4 - 8
  • Sourspot Angle: 38 -> 70
• Dash Attack:
  • Sourspot Angle: 361 -> 140
  • Sourspot BKB: 60 -> 80
  • FAF: Frame 50 -> Frame 42
• Side Tilt:
  • Sourspot Angle: 361 -> 20
  • Middle Hit Damage: 9 -> 10
• Up Tilt:
  • FAF: Frame 39 -> Frame 36
• Down Tilt:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 7 - 9 -> Frame 6 - 9
  • Sourspot Angle: 30 -> 80
  • Sourspot BKB: 40 -> 80
  • Sourspot KBG: 40 -> 60
• Side Smash:
  • Sourspot KBG: 70 -> 100
• Forward Air:
  • Startup: Frame 8 -> Frame 7
  • Sweetspot Damage: 11 -> 11.5
  • Autocancel: Frame >36 -> Frame >28
• Back Air:
  • Sweetspot Damage: 12 -> 13.5
  • Autocancel: Frame >32 -> Frame >30
• Up Air:
  • Sweetspot Damage: 9 -> 11
  • Sourspot Damage: 6 -> 7
  • Sourspot BKB: 10 -> 50
  • Sourspot KBG: 70 -> 55
• Down Air:
  • Sourspot Angle: 80 -> 361
  • Autocancel: Frame >55 -> Frame >44
  • FAF: Frame 52 -> Frame 48
• Back Throw:
  • Damage: 5 -> 7
  • Angle: 117 -> 150
  • BKB: 70 -> 60
  • KBG: 45 -> 75
• Dancing Blade 1
  • Angle, BKB, and KBG values edited to match Marth's.
  • Sweetspot Damage: 3 -> 4
  • Sourspot Damage: 2 -> 3
• Dancing Blade 2 and Dancing Blade 3:
  • Damage of all hits increased by 1.
  • BKB of all hits changed to 50
  • KBG of all hits changed to 30
• Dancing Blade 4 (Angled up and side)
  • Damage of all hits increased by 1
• Dancing Blade 4 (Angled down):
  • Multihit BKB: 2 -> 10
  • Damage of ending hit increased by 1
• Blazer:
  • Aerial Damage, BKB, WKB, and KBG values edited to match the ground variant.

Mewtwo

Spoiler

• Jab:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 6 - 7 -> Frame 6 - 9
• Rapid Jab:
  • Hitbox sizes increased by 0.5 units.
  • Damage: 1 -> 1.2
  • BKB: 14 -> 20
  • KBG: 30 -> 35
• Rapid Jab Finisher:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 6 - 7 -> Frame 6 - 9
  • Damage: 2 -> 4
  • KBG: 100 -> 120
• Side Tilt:
  • Damage: 10/9/8 -> 11/10/9
  • BKB: 20 -> 32
  • FAF: Frame 36 -> Frame 32
• Side Smash:
  • Sweetspot BKB: 21 -> 30
  • Sweetspot KBG: 85 -> 95
  • Sourspot KBG: 90 -> 100
• Standing Grab/Running Grab/Pivot Grab
  • Grab Collisions increased by 0.5 units.
• Teleport:
  • Startup: Frame 9 -> Frame 7

Charizard

Spoiler

• Initial Dash Velocity: 1 -> 1.5
• Ground Traction: 0.04 -> 0.05
• JumpSquat: 6 Frames -> 5 Frames
• Jump V Initial Velocity: 32 -> 35
• Hop V Initial Velocity: 15.43 -> 16.5
• Air Speed: 0.92 -> 1
• Air Acceleration: 0.05 -> 0.065
• Side Tilt
  • Sweetspot Damage: 11 -> 12
  • Sourspot Damage: 7 -> 9
  • Sourspot KBG: 100 -> 95
• Up Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 9 -> Frame 8
  • Lingering Hitbox added to Frames 14 - 21. Damage: 6, Angle: 96, BKB: 40, KBG: 130, Effect: Slash
• Down Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 9 -> Frame 7
  • FAF: Frame 31 -> Frame 27
• Side Smash:
  • Sourspot reworked into a Sweetspot.
  • Sourspot Damage: 14 -> 20
  • Sourspot BKB: 60 -> 50
  • Sourspot KBG: 94 -> 84
  • Sourspor Effect: Normal -> Fire
• Up Smash:
  • Hitbox on Frame 6 edited to hit both grounded and aerial foes.
  • Second Hitbox added on Frame around Charizard's torso with similar hitbox values as the first hitbox.
  • Second Hit hitbox sizes increased by 0.5 units
• Neutral Air:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 9 - 26 -> Frame 5 - 29
  • Landing Lag: 20 Frames -> 16 Frames
  • Hitbox sizes increased by 0.5 units.
  • FAF: Frame 60 -> Frame 50
• Forward Air:
  • Landing Lag: 22 Frames -> 18 Frames
  • FAF: Frame 47 -> Frame 37
• Back Air:
  • Sourspot Damage: 11 -> 14
• Up Air:
  • Landing Lag: 20 Frames -> 18 Frames
  • Startup: Frame 12 -> Frame 9
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 12 - 16 -> Frame 10 - 16
  • Autocancel: Frame >38 -> Frame >34
  • FAF: Frame 46 -> Frame 40
• Down Air
  • Landing Lag: 33 Frames -> 28 Frames
• Up Throw
  • FAF added to Frame 74
• Down Throw
  • Multihit Hitlag: 1 -> 0.2
  • FAF added to Frame 70
• Flare Blitz:
  • Detection Hitbox no longer clanks.
  • Detection Hitbox Damage: 4 -> 5
  • Explosion Damage: 15 -> 16
  • Explosion BKB: 70 -> 65
  • Explosion KBG: 84 -> 90
• Fly
  • All hitbox sizes (except final hit) increased by 0.5 units.
  • Final hit hitbox sizes increased by 1 unit.
  • All hitboxes moved backward by 3 units
  • Multihit Angle: 72/90/90 -> 366/90/90

Wario

Spoiler

• Side Smash:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 18 - 20 -> Frame 18 -> 21
  • BKB: 20 -> 30
  • Endlag reduced by 20%

Bowser

Spoiler

• Up Throw:
  • Throw KBG: 180 -> 155

Shulk

Spoiler

• Jab 1:
  • Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 4
  • Hitboxes lowered and increased in size by 0.5 units.
  • Damage: 3 -> 3.5
  • FAF: Frame 26 -> Frame 23
• Jab 2:
  • Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 4
  • WKB: 52 -> 42
  • FAF: Frame 34 -> Frame 28
• Jab 3:
  • Startup: Frame 12 -> Frame 8
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 12 - 15 -> Frame 11 - 15. (This was to prevent a glitch in which the attack whiffs from the reduced startup)
  • Sweetspot Damage: 5.3 -> 4.3
  • Sourspot edited to match sweetspot.
• Dash Attack:
  • Startup: Frame 15 -> Frame 10
  • Angle: 60 -> 40
  • FAF: 53 -> 48
• Side Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 12 -> Frame 9
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 12 - 14 -> Frame 10 -> 14 (This was to prevent a glitch in which the attack whiffs from the reduced startup)
  • FAF: 44 -> 40
• Up Tilt:
  • FAF: Frame 40 -> Frame 38
• Down Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 10 -> Frame 7
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 10 - 12 -> Frame 9 - 12 (This was to prevent a glitch in which the attack whiffs from the reduced startup)
  • FAF: Frame 34 -> Frame 31
• Side Smash:
  • Hit 1 no longer clanks.
  • Hit 1 hitboxes extended by 2 units and increased in size by 0.25 units.
  • Hit 1 (Angled Down) Angle: 78/10/40 -> 68/10/30
  • Hit 2 hitbox sizes increased by 0.5 units.
  • Hit 2 Hitbox Duration: Frame 23 - 24 -> Frame 23 -> 26
  • Hit 2 (No Angle and Angled Down) KBG: 115 -> 125
• Up Smash:
  • Hitbox 0 of Hit 1 KBG: 40 -> 100
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 60
• Neutral Air
  • Startup: Frame 13 -> Frame 10
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 13 - 31 -> Frame 13 -> Frame 34
  • Autocancel: Frame >80 -> Frame >57
  • FAF: Frame 71 -> Frame 66
• Forward Air:
  • Startup: Frame 14 -> Frame 11
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 14 - 18 -> Frame 14 - 20
  • Damage: 8/6.5 -> 9.5/8
  • KBG: 100 -> 90
  • Autocancel: Frame >57 -> Frame >45
• Back Air:
  • Startup: Frame 18 -> Frame 16
  • Tipper hitbox size increased by 0.5 units
  • Autocancel: Frame >79 -> Frame >48
• Up Air:
  • Startup: Frame 14 -> Frame 11
  • Hit 1 Hitbox Duration: Frame 14 -15 -> Frame 14 - 17
  • Hit 2 Hitbox Duration: Frame 24 - 25 -> Frame 19 - 20
  • Hit 2 Sourspot Damage: 8 -> 9
  • Hit 2 Sourspot KBG: 100 -> 86
  • Lingering Hitbox added to Frames 21 - 30. Damage: 6, Angle: 88, BKB: 35, KBG: 100, Effect: Slash
  • Autocancel: Frame >79 -> Frame >48
• Down Air
  • Startup: Frame 14 -> Frame 12
  • Hit 1 edited to hit both grounded and aerial foes.
  • Hit 1 Hitbox Duration: Frame 14 - 15 -> Frame 14 - 17
  • Hit 1 Damage: 7.5 -> 6
  • Hit 2 Hitbox Duration: Frame 23 - 24 -> Frame 19 - 20
  • Hit 2 Hitbox 0: BKB: 10 -> 20
  • Hit 2 Hitbox 1: BKB: 10 -> 40
  • Lingering Hitbox Added to Frames 21 - 32. Damage: 6, Angle: 85, BKB: 20, KBG: 100, Effect: Slash
  • Autocancel: Frame >78 -> Frame >52
• Back Slash:
  • Damage: 10/9/16/14 -> 12/12/20/20
  • KBG: 100 -> 96
• Back Slash Landing:
  • Damage: 10/9/15/14 -> 12/12/20/20
  • KBG: 100 -> 96
• Air Slash:
  • Hit 1 Ledge Grab: Frame >40 -> Frame >37
  • Hit 1 (Frames 10 - 12) WKB: 140/135/100 -> 135/130/125
  • Hit 1 (Frame 12 - 14) WKB: 78/80 -> 80/70
  • Hit 1 additional hitboxes added to Frames 14 - 16: Damage: 5, Angle: 86/52, WKB: 62/58. KBG: 100, Effect: Slash
  • Hit 2 Damage: 5.5 -> 7
  • Hit 2 BKB: 35 -> 45
  • Hit 2 KBG: 170 -> 145
• Vision:
  • Forward Counter Attack KBG: 94 -> 80
  • Standard Counter Attack KBG: 84 -> 70
  • Aerial Counter Attack Intangibility: Frames 9 - 44 -> Frames 1 - 45

Mii Gunner

Spoiler

• Run Initial Velocity: 1.3 -> 1.4
• Jab 1:
  • Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 3
• Jab 2:
  • Jab 3 Window: Frame 13 -> Frame 11
• Jab 3:
  • Startup: Frame 7 -> Frame 5
  • Hit 1 hitbox sizes increased by 0.5 units.
• Dash Attack:
  • BKB: 80 -> 70
  • KBG: 70 -> 80
• Side Tilt:
  • Damage: 9/7.5/6 -> 10/8.5/7
  • Hitbox added to Frames 16 - 18: Damage: 5.5, Angle: 361, BKB: 30, KBG: 100, Effect: Normal
• Up Tilt:
  • Hitbox 0 BKB: 50 -> 40
  • Hitbox 0 KBG: 100 -> 110
  • Hitbox 1 BKB: 50 -> 40
  • Hitbox 1 KBG: 80 -> 90
  • FAF: Frame 38 -> Frame 30
• Down Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 8 -> Frame 6
  • BKB: 80 -> 60
  • KB: 60 -> 80
  • FAF: Frame 41 -> Frame 38
• Side Smash:
  • Startup: Frame 17 -> Frame 15
  • Multhit hitbox 0 extended by 2 units.
  • Multihit edited to hit downed foes.
  • Multihit Damage: 0.8 -> 1
  • Multihit Rehit Rate: 4 Frames -> 3 Frames
  • Ending Hit KBG: 193 -> 200
• Up Smash:
  • Hit 5 KBG: 150 -> 165
• Neutral Air:
  • Startup: Frame 8 -> Frame 6
  • Autocancel: Frame >35 -> Frame >30
• Forward Air:
  • Horizontal Momentum: -1 -> -0.5
  • Autocancel: Frame 47 -> Frame 27
  • FAF: Frame 56 -> Frame 46
• Back Air:
  • Landing Lag: 18 Frames -> 15 Frames
  • Hitbox sizes increased by 1 unit.
  • Hitbox 0: BKB: 30 -> 42
• Up Air
  • Landing Lag: 22 Frames -> 18 Frames
  • End Hit KBG: 170 -> 180
  • Hitbox added to the first 2 Frames of Landing: Damage: 4, Angle: 72 , BKB: 40, KBG: 180, Effect: Normal
  • Autocancel: Frame >60 -> Frame >50
  • FAF: Frame 62 -> Frame 52
• Down Air:
  • Landing Lag: 28 Frames -> 22 Frames
  • Vertical Momentum added to Frame 20: +1
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 20 - 21 -> Frame 20 - 22
  • Sourspot Angle: 361 -> 270
  • Sourspot BKB: 30 -> 20
  • Sourspot: KBG: 90 -> 80
  • Sweetspot Ground only hitbox removed and sweetspot air only hitbox edited to hit grounded foes.
  • Sweetspot increased in size and moved down by 0.5 units.
  • Sweetspot BKB: 2 -> 30
• Forward Throw:
  • Throw BKB: 42 -> 32
  • Throw KBG: 130 -> 140
• Down Throw:
  • Throw BKB: 95 -> 65
  • Throw KBG: 50 -> 60
• Charge Blast:
  • Full Charge Damage: 22 -> 23
  • Full Charge BKB: 20 -> 30
  • Full Charge KBG: 64 -> 74
• Laser Blaze:
  • Initial hit edited to cause flinching. The later hit is still flinchless.
• Cannon Uppercut:
  • Hit 2 Damage: 8 -> 9
  • Hit 2 Stage Damage: 6 -> 7
  • Hit 2 KBG: 134 -> 140
• Echo Reflector:
  • Air only hitbox removed and ground only hitbox edited to hit aerial foes.
  • Endlag reduced by 20%
• Absorbing Vortex:
  • Endlag reduced by 20%.

Cloud

Spoiler

• Jab 1:
  • Hitboxes 1 and 2 extended by 3 units.
• Jab 2:
  • Hitbox 2 extended by 1 unit.
  • Damage: 2 -> 3
• Jab 3:
  • Damage: 3.5 -> 4.5
• Up Tilt:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 6 - 10 -> Frame 4 - 10
  • Startup: Frame 6 -> Frame 6 (1.5* FSM until Frame 4 keep the original startup)
  • FAF: Frame 33 -> Frame 32
• Down Tilt:
  • Leg Intangibility removed. (It was redundant, as it was on the wrong leg)
• Up Smash:
  • Stale Hit Damage: 8 -> 10
• Neutral Air:
  • Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 8
  • Hitbox 0 extended by 3 units.
• Forward Air:
  • Landing Lag: 18 Frames -> 19 Frames
  • Damage: 14/14/13/13 -> 16/16/14.5/14.5
  • KBG: 90/100/83/83 -> 90/100/88/88
• Down Air:
  • Hitbox 0 Damage: 15 -> 14
  • Hitbox 0 KBG: 100 -> 95
  • Hitbox 1 KBG: 105 -> 95
  • Lingering Hitbox Duration: Frame 14 - 43 -> Frame 14 - 39
• Blade Beam:
  • Projectile hitbox sizes increased by 1 unit and extended upward by 2 units
• Cross Slash:
  • Hit 1 and Hit 2 Angles, BKB, WKB, and KBG edited to match Limit Break version.
  • Hit 2 Damage: 3 -> 2
  • Hits 3 and 4 Damage reduced by 1 ( 3 -> 2)
• Climhazard:
  • Hitbox 1 BKB: 130 -> 80
  • Hitbox 1 KBG: 25 -> 50
• Cross Slash (Limit Break):
  • Hit 5 Damage: 10 -> 9
  • Hit 5 Angle: 50 -> 60
  • Hit 5 KBG: 163 -> 140
• Finishing Touch:
  • Intangibility added on Frames 5 - 10.
  • Back Hit KGB: 390 -> 417

Palutena

Spoiler

• Air Speed: 0.91 -> 0.975
• Jab:
  • Startup: Frame 7 -> Frame 6
  • FAF: Frame 26 -> Frame 23
• Dash Attack
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 6 - 17 -> Frame 6 - 19
  • Damage: 9 -> 10
  • KBG: 90 -> 100
  • Lingering Hit Damage: 5 -> 6
  • Lingering Hit KBG: 70 -> 80
  • FAF: Frame 52 -> Frame 42
• Side Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 17 -> Frame 11
  • Attack duration sped up by 30%
  • Hit 1 Damage: 6/4 -> 5
  • Hit 1 BKB: 43 -> 0
  • Hit 1 WKB: 0 -> 75
  • Hit 1 KBG: 65 -> 100
  • Hit 2 Damage: 6/4 -> 7/5
  • Hit 2 BKB: 43 -> 53
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 55
• Up Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 10 -> Frame 8
  • Multihit Rehit Rate: 5 Frames -> 4 Frames
  • Endlag reduced by 10%.
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> 58
• Down Tilt:
  • Air only hitbox removed.
  • Ground only hitbox edited to hit aerial foes.
  • Startup: Frame 14 -> Frame 10
  • Hitbox size increased by 1 unit and lowered by 0.5 units.
  • Angle: 361 -> 60
  • BKB: 38 -> 40
• Side Smash:
  • Damage: 16/13/0 -> 17/14/0
  • All hitbox sizes increased and moved forward by 2 units.
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 58
• Up Smash:
  • Startup: Frame 18 -> Frame 13
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 58
• Down Smash:
  • Damage: 15/13/0 -> 16/14/0
  • Angle: 60/28 -> 28
  • Windbox WKB: 32 -> 40
  • Windbox sizes increased by 4 units
  • FAF: Frame 72 -> Frame 62
• Neutral Air:
  • Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 3.
  • Landing Lag: 20 Frames -> 15 Frames
  • Final Hit BKB: 30 -> 40
  • Final Hit KBG: 180 -> 190
• Back Air:
  • Damage: 12/9 -> 13/10
• Up Air:
  • Landing Lag: 22 Frames -> 12 Frames
• Down Air:
  • FAF: Frame 59 -> Frame 49
• Back Throw:
  • Angle: 361 -> 51
  • KBG: 70 -> 100
• Up Throw:
  • Damage: 8 -> 10
  • KBG: 60 -> 80
• Down Throw:
  • Damage: 5 -> 6
• Autoreticle:
  • Searching hitbox increased by 25 units.
  • Projectile BKB: 20 -> 40
  • Projectile KBG: 42 -> 50
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 54
• Reflect Barrier:
  • Startup: Frame 8 -> Frame 7
  • BKB: 10 -> 30
  • Barrier WKB: 35 -> 50
  • FAF: Frame 56 -> Frame 40
• Warp:
  • Intangibility Frames: Frame 16 - 31 -> Frame 11 - 36
• Counter:
  • Counter Duration: Frame 10 - 32 -> Frame 7 - 32
  • Counter FAF: Frame 75 -> Frame 55
  • Counter Attack Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 3
  • Counter Attack Sourspot edited to match sweetspot
  • Counter Attack Sweetspot BKB: 40 -> 45
  • Counter Attack Sweetspot KBG: 75 -> 80
  • Counter Attack FAF: Frame 56 -> Frame 36

Little Mac *Updated*

Spoiler

• Jump V Initial Velocity: 26 -> 30
• Jab 1:
  • BKB: 10 -> 0
  • WKB: 0 -> 20
  • KBG: 80 -> 90
  • FAF: Frame 22 -> Frame 17
• Jab 2:
  • Jab 3 and Rapid Jab Windows swapped.
  • BKB: 10 -> 0
  • WKB: 0 -> 20
  • KBG: 80 -> 90
  • FAF: Frame 22 -> Frame 18
• Rapid Jab:
  • Hitbox sizes increased by 0.8 units
  • BKB: 0 -> 10
  • BKG: 50 -> 40
• Side Tilt
  • Counter Duration: Frame 10 - 32 -> Frame 7 - 32
  • Hit 1 (Hitbox 0) Angle: 60 -> 35
  • Hit 1 (Hitbox 0) KBG: 50 -> 30
  • Hit 2 hitbox sizes increased by 1 unit.
• Side Smash (All Angles):
  • Windbox WKB: 24 -> 50
  • Windbox KBG: 100 -> 80
• Neutral Air:
  • Landing Lag: 16 Frames -> 10 Frames
  • Autocancel: Frame >25 -> Frame >15
• Back Air:
  • Damage: 6/4/4 -> 7/5/5
  • BKB: 25 -> 35
• Up Air
  • Landing Lag: 22 Frames -> 14 Frames
  • Autocancel: Frame >40 -> Frame >30
  • FAF: Frame 42 -> Frame 28
• Grab/Dash Grab/Pivot Grab:
  • Startup: Frame 9/10/11 -> Frame 7/9/10
  • Grabbox sizes increased by 1 and extended forward by 1.5 units.
• Forward Throw:
  • Throw Angle: 45 -> 25
  • Throw BKB: 45 -> 35
  • Throw KBG: 104 -> 90
• Up Throw:
  • Throw Damage: 3 -> 6
  • Throw KBG: 104 -> 98
• Rising Uppercut:
  • Multihit Damage: 1 -> 2.5
• Slip Counter:
  • Counter Attack KBG: 50 -> 60

King Dedede

Spoiler

• Air Mobility: 0.63 -> 0.72
• Walk Max Velocity: 0.98 -> 1.08
• Initial Run Velocity: 1.36 -> 1.46
• Jab 1:
  • Startup: Frame 10 -> Frame 5
  • Active Frames: Frame 10 - 12 -> Frame 8 - 12 (This was to prevent a glitch in which the attack whiffs from the reduced startup).
  • Hitboxes moved from root bone onto the hammer itself
  • Angle: 70/105/361 -> 361/361/80
  • WKB: 50/48 - > 20/25/35
  • BKB: 25 -> 0
  • KBG: 10/10/100 -> 100
  • Jab 2 Window: Frame 19 -> Frame 16
  • Endlag reduced by 15%.
  • FAF: Frame 38 -> Frame 34
• Jab 2:
  • Startup: Frame 11 -> Frame 6
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 11 - 12 -> Frame 10 - 12
  • Hitboxes moved from root bone onto the hammer itself
  • Angle: 115/105/100 -> 90
  • BKB: 50/50/30 -> 55
  • KBG: 10/10/45 -> 0
  • Rapid Jab Window: Frame >24 -> Frame >18
  • Endlag reduced by 15%
• Rapid Jab Finisher:
  • Startup: Frame 6 -> Frame 3
• Dash Attack:
  • Knockback-Based Heavy Armor (Threshold of 140) added on Frame 7 - 28
  • Added Horizontal Momentum on Frame 28: +2.
• Up Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 9 -> Frame 7
  • Sourspot Damage: 10 -> 12
• Down Tilt:
  • Hitbox sizes increased by 0.5 units and brought backward by 0.5 units.
• Up Smash:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 17 - 25 -> Frame 16 - 21
  • Endlag reduced by 20%
• Neutral Air:
  • Landing Lag: 15 Frames -> 12 Frames
• Forward Air:
  • Landing Lag: 30 Frames -> 25 Frames
  • Damage: 12 -> 13
  • Endlag reduced by 20%
• Back Air:
  • Landing Lag: 21 Frames -> 19 Frames
• Up Air:
  • Final Hit KBG: 150 -> 165
• Down Air:
  • Landing Lag: 30 Frames -> 26 Frames
  • Sweetspot hitbox sizes increased by 2 units
  • Sourspot hitbox sizes reduced by 2 units and moved upward by 10 units.
• Grab/Dash Grab/Pivot Grab:
  • Grabbox sizes increased by 0.5 units and extended by 1 unit.
• Forward Throw:
  • Throw KBG: 80 -> 90
• Back Throw:
  • Hit 1 Damage: 4 -> 5
  • Throw Damage: 9 -> 10
  • Throw KBG: 79 -> 89
• Up Throw:
  • Throw Damage: 5 -> 6
  • Throw BKB: 70 -> 60
  • Throw KBG: 72 -> 75
• Down Throw:
  • Throw BKB: 70 -> 60
  • Throw KBG: 82 -> 65
• Inhale:
  • FAF: Frame 78 -> Frame 63
• Gordo Toss:
  • Startup: Frame 29 -> Frame 25
  • Endlag reduced by 15%
• Jet Hammer:
  • Startup reduced by 25%
  • Full Charge Shield Damage: 0 -> 15

Zelda

Spoiler

• Jab:
  • Startup: Frame 11 -> Frame 8
• Side Tilt (All Angles):
  • Damage: 12/10/10 -> 13/11/11
• Side Smash:
  • FAF: Frame 50 -> Frame 44
• Up Smash:
  • FAF: Frame 64 -> Frame 60
• Forward Air:
  • Sweetspot Duration: Frame 9 - 10 -> Frame 9 - 11
  • Sourspot: Damge: 4 -> 7
  • Autocancel: Frame >50 -> Frame >44
  • FAF: Frame 53 -> Frame 47
• Back Air:
  • Sweetspot Duration: Frame 6 - 7 -> Frame 6 - 8
  • Sourspot Damage: 4 -> 7
  • Autocancel: Frame 52 -> 46
  • FAF: Frame 53 -> Frame 47
• Down Air:
  • Sweetspot Duration: Frame 14 - 15 -> Frame 14 - 16
  • Sourspot Duration: Frame 15 - 25 -> Frame 16 - 25
  • Sourspot: Damage: 5/4 -> 6
  • Sweetspot: KBG: 65 -> 105
• Dash Grab:
  • FAF: Frame 47 -> Frame 44
• Pivot Grab:
  • FAF: Frame 44 -> Frame 43
• Din's Fire:
  • Sourspot Damage, Angle, BKB, and KBG edited to match sweetspot.
  • Sweetspot: BKB: 50 -> 60

Dr. Mario *New!*

Spoiler

• Weight: 98 -> 102
• Run Initial Velocity: 1.5 -> 1.825
• Walk Max Velocity: 1.1 -> 1.3
• Air Speed: 1.1 -> 1.26
• Dash Attack:
  • Main Hit BKB: 90 -> 80
  • Main Hit KBG: 42 -> 40
• Side Tilt:
  • Hitbox 0 Damage: 7 -> 9
  • Hitbox 1/2 Damage: 7 -> 10
  • Hitboxes 1 and 2 increased by 0.25 units.
  • BKB: 8 -> 10
• Up Tilt:
  • Damage: 6.3 -> 8
• Neutral Air:
  • Sweetspot Damage: 8 -> 9.2
  • Sourspot Damage: 5 -> 5.9
• Forward Air:
  • Sweetspot Effect: Normal -> Electric
• Up Air:
  • Damage: 7 -> 8
  • BKB: 9 -> 10
  • KBG: 100 -> 90
• Down Air:
  • Autocancel: Frame >37 -> Frame >30
• Pummel:
  • Damage: 3.25 -> 3.5
• Back Throw:
  • Throw Angle: 45 -> 40
  • Throw BKB: 60 -> 70
• Megavitamin:
  • 1.2* FSM removed
  • Main Pill Damage: 5 -> 6
  • Stale Pill Damage: 4 -> 5
• Super Jump Punch:
  • Sweetspot Damage: 12 -> 13
  • Sweetspot BKB: 30 -> 35
  • Sweetspot KBG: 100 -> 95
  • Sweetspot Effect: Normal -> Electric
• Dr. Tornado:
  • Multihit Damage: 1.2 -> 1.3
  • Final Hit Damage: 3 -> 4.8
  • Final Hit BKB: 80 -> 50
  • Final Hit KBG: 130 -> 110
  • FAF: 75 -> 65

Thanks! You guys are awesome

 

[Frihetsanka]

So, I apologize if this has been asked and answered before but I've been having this question in the back of my mind for a while and I've been searching for a answer but couldn't find any, so, exactly how "viable" are we aiming to make the characters, anyway? I understand we're aiming to make characters "high tier" but how high are we drawing that line? If I'm proposing suggestions to character X, am I trying to make them more like Mario or more like say, Ness in terms of viability? Sorry for the confusion.

I say the goal is to improve the low and mid tier characters overall. The aim could be around Ness level, although it wouldn't be bad if they ended up weaker or slightly stronger. I think that aiming at Mario level might lead to some overbuffs, though if someone would end up at Mario level after the buffs that could be somewhat okay (though I'd prefer if they didn't).

 

[Radical Larry]

The goal of this mod is to aid characters in being balanced, yeah? So I think I should suggest changes that can very easily be molded by everyone. Now let's understand that I'm just trying my best to [and failing to] suggest some good changes that would be good for certain characters so that they aren't easily taken down by opponents. But a key flaw in this is that even when I listen, I can't seem to get it just right. So what I'll do is give suggestions for one character for now, and that character shall just be Ganondorf. I'll repost my changes with differences:

Spoiler: Ganondorf Changes, Proposed

Green Changes are Buffs, Red Changes are Nerfs, Purple Changes are Both/Neither

• Attribute Statistics:
  • Weight Increased: 113 => 118
  • Run Speed Increased: 1.218 => 1.35
  • Walk Speed Increased: 0.73 => 0.89
  • Air Speed Increased: 0.79 => 0.88
  • Jumpsquat Decreased: 7 Frames => 5 Frames
• Ground Moves [Normals]:
  • Jab Attack:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frames 7-8 => Frames 5-6
    • FAF Decreased: 29 Frames => 24 Frames
    • Damages Decreased [Body to Tip]: 6/8/10% => 6/8/9%
  • Dash Attack:
    • FAF Decreased: 38 Frames => 34 Frames
    • Early Hit Damage Decreased: 14% => 13%
  • Forward Tilt:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frames 10-12 => Frames 8-10
    • Damage Decreased: 13/12/12% => 12/11/11%
  • Up Tilt:
    • Base Knockback Increased: 60 => 110
  • Down Tilt:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frames 10-12 => Frames 8-10
    • FAF Decreased: 36 => 32
    • Damage Decreased: 13% => 11%
    • Angles Changed [Body to Foot]: 80/70/60 => 90/80/20
• Smash Attacks:
  • Up Smash:
    • New Hitbox Added:
      • Start-Up: Frames 12-13
      • Damage: 12%
      • Angle: 90 Degrees
      • Base Knockback: 15
      • Knockback Growth: 30
  • Down Smash:
    • Hit 1 Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 15-18 => Frames 12-15
    • Hit 2 Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 35-38 => Frames 30-33
    • Hit 1 Angles Changed: 160/140/154/50 => 160/150/160/150
    • Hit 1 Damage Decreased: 6% => 5%
    • Hit 2 Damage Decreased: 15/15/13% => 14/14/12%
• Grabs:
  • Standing Grab Start-Up Decreased: Frames 7-8 => Frames 6-7
  • Standing Grab FAF Decreased: 36 Frames => 32 Frames
  • Standing Grab Range Increased by 2 Units
  • Dash Grab Start-Up Decreased: Frames 11-12 => Frames 9-10
  • Dash Grab FAF Decreased: 45 Frames => 40 Frames
  • Dash Grab Range Increased by 2 Units
  • Pivot Grab FAF Decreased: 42 Frames => 38 Frames
  • Pivot Grab Range Increased by 3 Units
• Throws:
  • Down Throw:
    • Base Knockback Decreased: 70 => 50
    • Knockback Growth Decreased: 50 => 25
    • Angle Changed: 65 Degrees => 85 Degrees
    • Weight Dependency Removed for Better Combo Ability
• Aerials:
  • Neutral Aerial:
    • Hit 1 Early Damage Increased: 7% => 9%
    • Hit 1 Late Damage Increased: 5.25% => 7.5%
  • Forward Aerial:
    • Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 14-19 => Frames 12-17
    • Auto-Cancel Frames Decreased: Frame 55 => Frame 27
  • Back Aerial:
    • Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 10-12 => Frames 9-11
  • Down Aerial:
    • Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 16-18 => Frames 14-16
    • Auto-Cancel Frames Decreased: Frame 32 => Frame 25
    • Damages Increased: 19/17% => 22/19%
• Specials:
  • Warlock Punch:
    • Normal Grounded Damage Increased: 30% => 40%
    • Normal Aerial Damage Increased: 38% => 45%
    • B-Reversed Grounded Damage Increased: 38% => 50%
    • B-Reversed Aerial Damage Increased: 40% => 100%
    • B-Reversed Grounded and Aerial Knockback Growth Increased: 100 => 150
  • Flame Choke:
    • Grounded Start-Up Decreased: Frames 16-30 => Frame 10-26
    • Grounded Grab Boxes Active Increased: Frame 10-26 => Frame 10-45
    • Aerial Start-Up Decreased: Frames 19-31 => Frames 13-25
    • Aerial Grab Boxes Active Increased: Frame 13-25 => Frame 13-39
    • Aerial Recovery Distance increased by 40%
    • Grounded Damage Decreased: 12% => 10%
    • Aerial Damage Decreased: 15% => 13%
  • Dark Dive:
    • Attack Knockback Growth Increased: 90 => 110
    • Aerial Recovery Vertical Distance increased by 20%
    • Aerial Recovery Horizontal Distance increased by 30%

Again, it is almost like the same thing, but I did change up some things like the recovery distance of Dark Dive, the removal of every throw buff except Down Throw, changed the Jab Start-Up and FAF to be more reasonable and let the Jab still be the get-off-me move it should be. As well, Dash Attack's been changed up too, and other things like Flame Choke getting a decrease in damage as compensation for its better frame data, as well as Neutral Aerial getting a damage buff, also appear.

The point of the changes are, again, to give Ganondorf a better combo ability with his attacks at the cost of damage, as well as an actual grab. I think the changes would now be better since it should be very reasonable. Ganondorf would be more versatile and would likely become along the lines of a middle tier or high tier, and it would further tighten the gap between tiers. I'd accept any suggestion of change additions/removals, as it would be better for multiple people to aid in the suggestion process rather than one person.

Spoiler: Why Buffing Warlock Punch's Damage is NOT Bad, it's just now High Risk, High Reward

Oh, and as a side note, you still aren't reading it wrong, with the Warlock Punch changes. That move is too predictable to successfully hit, so I just went all out on the Punch damage buffs. Again, I am keeping one kind of silly thing here, so it would have to be with the one move that's too hard to successfully hit. Remember the whole frame data thing when you might think that the damage buff is too much. Warlock Punch is a situational move, and is an opportunistic move as well.

So what changes would you guys rather have so we can have a full consensus? I think the mobility buffs to make him true to Brawl and Melee's combined aerial and ground mobility is still reasonable. We can all do this one character at a time, though, so as to get bigger discussions going.

 

[Deleted member]

way tl;dr

Breezed through your post like Skim-Milk, but from what I did see, I don't think that buffing Warlock Punch would be a bad idea. I like the concept of a "fun move" (but only in moderation). However, I'd prefer for it to be faster with less damage than the other way around.

 

[ZeusLink]

If Ryu's Shoryuken has no landing lag, imagine having the fingers to perfectly time five consecutive Shoryukens in a row. The perfectly inputted ones, that is.

 

[Vincent_Leo]

I was told by a Moderator I should post this here, so here goes...

I've been reading around the Sm4sh Forums here, and people want to create their own balance patch, and I'm here with the skills to implement most of these changes!

Ever since I've started playing Sm4sh and seeing the tier list, I've been wanting to make a balance overhaul to the majority of the cast. I would also like to eventually fix/remove/adjust various things that are jank about Sm4sh (Ex: Rage, Footstooling, Glitches, etc) when the tools are available.

My goal is to make every character viable in at least one way or another with no character being too bad to even bother with (Ex: Palutena, Zelda, Ganondorf, etc) or too broken to even bother with (i.e. Bayonetta) (Bayonetta's been heavily nerfed in Patch 1.1.6, so this part is redundant). Lower tier characters will be subject to various buffs, while higher tier characters will be left alone for the most part (unless an official patch overnerfed something and/or if something about them is broken).

The best I can do right now if Frame data, Attribute, and Hitbox edits, so Floating Point-related things (Ex: Witch Time, Counter damage multipliers, etc) cannot be changed at this current time until they're properly identified.

Download (New): https://www.dropbox.com/s/mdo57fc8qlhuwkr/Patch 1.1.7 - The Fan Patch.zip?dl=0

Feel free to give your own thoughts and suggestions, but try to explain in the best way possible why you want something changed. What I need the most right now is a sense of direction and criticism for my current edits.

Credits:
-SilentDo0m. Suggested edits for Charizard, Roy, Shulk, Little Mac, and Mewtwo.
-Marioking64DS. Suggested edits for Wario.
-DarkLordRS. Suggested edits for Mii Gunner.
-Palutena and Dedede Boards (SmashBoards). Ideas taken from discussion threads.
-Zikkh Suggested edits for King Dedede.
-Kienamaru. Suggested edits for Zelda.
-Yoshister. Suggested edits for Dr. Mario.

You can see the current changes in the spoiler below.

DISCLAIMER: These changes are not final, and are subject to change.

Update (May 20th, 2016): Zelda changes have been added!

Update (May 21st, 2016): Minor edits to Little Mac's Rapid Jab.

Update (May 23rd, 2016): Dr. Mario changes have been added!

Color coding:
New.
Updated.
May/Will be revised.
May/Will be removed.

Spoiler

Diddy Kong

Spoiler

• Up Air:
  • Damage: 6 -> 7
  • Angle: 76 -> 75
  • BKB: 64 -> 54
  • KBG: 89 -> 99
• Down Throw:
  • Angle: 106 -> 105
  • KBG: 59 -> 40

Roy

Spoiler

• Walk Max Velocity: 1.1.5 -> 1.2
• Initial Dash Velocity: 1.4 -> 1.5
• Air Acceleration: 0.03 -> 0.05
• Jump V Initial Velocity: 30.97 -> 33.97
• Hop V Initial Velocity: 13 -> 15
• Jab:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 5 - 8 -> Frame 4 - 8
  • Sourspot Angle: 38 -> 70
• Dash Attack:
  • Sourspot Angle: 361 -> 140
  • Sourspot BKB: 60 -> 80
  • FAF: Frame 50 -> Frame 42
• Side Tilt:
  • Sourspot Angle: 361 -> 20
  • Middle Hit Damage: 9 -> 10
• Up Tilt:
  • FAF: Frame 39 -> Frame 36
• Down Tilt:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 7 - 9 -> Frame 6 - 9
  • Sourspot Angle: 30 -> 80
  • Sourspot BKB: 40 -> 80
  • Sourspot KBG: 40 -> 60
• Side Smash:
  • Sourspot KBG: 70 -> 100
• Forward Air:
  • Startup: Frame 8 -> Frame 7
  • Sweetspot Damage: 11 -> 11.5
  • Autocancel: Frame >36 -> Frame >28
• Back Air:
  • Sweetspot Damage: 12 -> 13.5
  • Autocancel: Frame >32 -> Frame >30
• Up Air:
  • Sweetspot Damage: 9 -> 11
  • Sourspot Damage: 6 -> 7
  • Sourspot BKB: 10 -> 50
  • Sourspot KBG: 70 -> 55
• Down Air:
  • Sourspot Angle: 80 -> 361
  • Autocancel: Frame >55 -> Frame >44
  • FAF: Frame 52 -> Frame 48
• Back Throw:
  • Damage: 5 -> 7
  • Angle: 117 -> 150
  • BKB: 70 -> 60
  • KBG: 45 -> 75
• Dancing Blade 1
  • Angle, BKB, and KBG values edited to match Marth's.
  • Sweetspot Damage: 3 -> 4
  • Sourspot Damage: 2 -> 3
• Dancing Blade 2 and Dancing Blade 3:
  • Damage of all hits increased by 1.
  • BKB of all hits changed to 50
  • KBG of all hits changed to 30
• Dancing Blade 4 (Angled up and side)
  • Damage of all hits increased by 1
• Dancing Blade 4 (Angled down):
  • Multihit BKB: 2 -> 10
  • Damage of ending hit increased by 1
• Blazer:
  • Aerial Damage, BKB, WKB, and KBG values edited to match the ground variant.

Mewtwo

Spoiler

• Jab:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 6 - 7 -> Frame 6 - 9
• Rapid Jab:
  • Hitbox sizes increased by 0.5 units.
  • Damage: 1 -> 1.2
  • BKB: 14 -> 20
  • KBG: 30 -> 35
• Rapid Jab Finisher:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 6 - 7 -> Frame 6 - 9
  • Damage: 2 -> 4
  • KBG: 100 -> 120
• Side Tilt:
  • Damage: 10/9/8 -> 11/10/9
  • BKB: 20 -> 32
  • FAF: Frame 36 -> Frame 32
• Side Smash:
  • Sweetspot BKB: 21 -> 30
  • Sweetspot KBG: 85 -> 95
  • Sourspot KBG: 90 -> 100
• Standing Grab/Running Grab/Pivot Grab
  • Grab Collisions increased by 0.5 units.
• Teleport:
  • Startup: Frame 9 -> Frame 7

Charizard

Spoiler

• Initial Dash Velocity: 1 -> 1.5
• Ground Traction: 0.04 -> 0.05
• JumpSquat: 6 Frames -> 5 Frames
• Jump V Initial Velocity: 32 -> 35
• Hop V Initial Velocity: 15.43 -> 16.5
• Air Speed: 0.92 -> 1
• Air Acceleration: 0.05 -> 0.065
• Side Tilt
  • Sweetspot Damage: 11 -> 12
  • Sourspot Damage: 7 -> 9
  • Sourspot KBG: 100 -> 95
• Up Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 9 -> Frame 8
  • Lingering Hitbox added to Frames 14 - 21. Damage: 6, Angle: 96, BKB: 40, KBG: 130, Effect: Slash
• Down Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 9 -> Frame 7
  • FAF: Frame 31 -> Frame 27
• Side Smash:
  • Sourspot reworked into a Sweetspot.
  • Sourspot Damage: 14 -> 20
  • Sourspot BKB: 60 -> 50
  • Sourspot KBG: 94 -> 84
  • Sourspor Effect: Normal -> Fire
• Up Smash:
  • Hitbox on Frame 6 edited to hit both grounded and aerial foes.
  • Second Hitbox added on Frame around Charizard's torso with similar hitbox values as the first hitbox.
  • Second Hit hitbox sizes increased by 0.5 units
• Neutral Air:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 9 - 26 -> Frame 5 - 29
  • Landing Lag: 20 Frames -> 16 Frames
  • Hitbox sizes increased by 0.5 units.
  • FAF: Frame 60 -> Frame 50
• Forward Air:
  • Landing Lag: 22 Frames -> 18 Frames
  • FAF: Frame 47 -> Frame 37
• Back Air:
  • Sourspot Damage: 11 -> 14
• Up Air:
  • Landing Lag: 20 Frames -> 18 Frames
  • Startup: Frame 12 -> Frame 9
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 12 - 16 -> Frame 10 - 16
  • Autocancel: Frame >38 -> Frame >34
  • FAF: Frame 46 -> Frame 40
• Down Air
  • Landing Lag: 33 Frames -> 28 Frames
• Up Throw
  • FAF added to Frame 74
• Down Throw
  • Multihit Hitlag: 1 -> 0.2
  • FAF added to Frame 70
• Flare Blitz:
  • Detection Hitbox no longer clanks.
  • Detection Hitbox Damage: 4 -> 5
  • Explosion Damage: 15 -> 16
  • Explosion BKB: 70 -> 65
  • Explosion KBG: 84 -> 90
• Fly
  • All hitbox sizes (except final hit) increased by 0.5 units.
  • Final hit hitbox sizes increased by 1 unit.
  • All hitboxes moved backward by 3 units
  • Multihit Angle: 72/90/90 -> 366/90/90

Wario

Spoiler

• Side Smash:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 18 - 20 -> Frame 18 -> 21
  • BKB: 20 -> 30
  • Endlag reduced by 20%

Bowser

Spoiler

• Up Throw:
  • Throw KBG: 180 -> 155

Shulk

Spoiler

• Jab 1:
  • Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 4
  • Hitboxes lowered and increased in size by 0.5 units.
  • Damage: 3 -> 3.5
  • FAF: Frame 26 -> Frame 23
• Jab 2:
  • Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 4
  • WKB: 52 -> 42
  • FAF: Frame 34 -> Frame 28
• Jab 3:
  • Startup: Frame 12 -> Frame 8
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 12 - 15 -> Frame 11 - 15. (This was to prevent a glitch in which the attack whiffs from the reduced startup)
  • Sweetspot Damage: 5.3 -> 4.3
  • Sourspot edited to match sweetspot.
• Dash Attack:
  • Startup: Frame 15 -> Frame 10
  • Angle: 60 -> 40
  • FAF: 53 -> 48
• Side Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 12 -> Frame 9
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 12 - 14 -> Frame 10 -> 14 (This was to prevent a glitch in which the attack whiffs from the reduced startup)
  • FAF: 44 -> 40
• Up Tilt:
  • FAF: Frame 40 -> Frame 38
• Down Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 10 -> Frame 7
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 10 - 12 -> Frame 9 - 12 (This was to prevent a glitch in which the attack whiffs from the reduced startup)
  • FAF: Frame 34 -> Frame 31
• Side Smash:
  • Hit 1 no longer clanks.
  • Hit 1 hitboxes extended by 2 units and increased in size by 0.25 units.
  • Hit 1 (Angled Down) Angle: 78/10/40 -> 68/10/30
  • Hit 2 hitbox sizes increased by 0.5 units.
  • Hit 2 Hitbox Duration: Frame 23 - 24 -> Frame 23 -> 26
  • Hit 2 (No Angle and Angled Down) KBG: 115 -> 125
• Up Smash:
  • Hitbox 0 of Hit 1 KBG: 40 -> 100
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 60
• Neutral Air
  • Startup: Frame 13 -> Frame 10
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 13 - 31 -> Frame 13 -> Frame 34
  • Autocancel: Frame >80 -> Frame >57
  • FAF: Frame 71 -> Frame 66
• Forward Air:
  • Startup: Frame 14 -> Frame 11
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 14 - 18 -> Frame 14 - 20
  • Damage: 8/6.5 -> 9.5/8
  • KBG: 100 -> 90
  • Autocancel: Frame >57 -> Frame >45
• Back Air:
  • Startup: Frame 18 -> Frame 16
  • Tipper hitbox size increased by 0.5 units
  • Autocancel: Frame >79 -> Frame >48
• Up Air:
  • Startup: Frame 14 -> Frame 11
  • Hit 1 Hitbox Duration: Frame 14 -15 -> Frame 14 - 17
  • Hit 2 Hitbox Duration: Frame 24 - 25 -> Frame 19 - 20
  • Hit 2 Sourspot Damage: 8 -> 9
  • Hit 2 Sourspot KBG: 100 -> 86
  • Lingering Hitbox added to Frames 21 - 30. Damage: 6, Angle: 88, BKB: 35, KBG: 100, Effect: Slash
  • Autocancel: Frame >79 -> Frame >48
• Down Air
  • Startup: Frame 14 -> Frame 12
  • Hit 1 edited to hit both grounded and aerial foes.
  • Hit 1 Hitbox Duration: Frame 14 - 15 -> Frame 14 - 17
  • Hit 1 Damage: 7.5 -> 6
  • Hit 2 Hitbox Duration: Frame 23 - 24 -> Frame 19 - 20
  • Hit 2 Hitbox 0: BKB: 10 -> 20
  • Hit 2 Hitbox 1: BKB: 10 -> 40
  • Lingering Hitbox Added to Frames 21 - 32. Damage: 6, Angle: 85, BKB: 20, KBG: 100, Effect: Slash
  • Autocancel: Frame >78 -> Frame >52
• Back Slash:
  • Damage: 10/9/16/14 -> 12/12/20/20
  • KBG: 100 -> 96
• Back Slash Landing:
  • Damage: 10/9/15/14 -> 12/12/20/20
  • KBG: 100 -> 96
• Air Slash:
  • Hit 1 Ledge Grab: Frame >40 -> Frame >37
  • Hit 1 (Frames 10 - 12) WKB: 140/135/100 -> 135/130/125
  • Hit 1 (Frame 12 - 14) WKB: 78/80 -> 80/70
  • Hit 1 additional hitboxes added to Frames 14 - 16: Damage: 5, Angle: 86/52, WKB: 62/58. KBG: 100, Effect: Slash
  • Hit 2 Damage: 5.5 -> 7
  • Hit 2 BKB: 35 -> 45
  • Hit 2 KBG: 170 -> 145
• Vision:
  • Forward Counter Attack KBG: 94 -> 80
  • Standard Counter Attack KBG: 84 -> 70
  • Aerial Counter Attack Intangibility: Frames 9 - 44 -> Frames 1 - 45

Mii Gunner

Spoiler

• Run Initial Velocity: 1.3 -> 1.4
• Jab 1:
  • Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 3
• Jab 2:
  • Jab 3 Window: Frame 13 -> Frame 11
• Jab 3:
  • Startup: Frame 7 -> Frame 5
  • Hit 1 hitbox sizes increased by 0.5 units.
• Dash Attack:
  • BKB: 80 -> 70
  • KBG: 70 -> 80
• Side Tilt:
  • Damage: 9/7.5/6 -> 10/8.5/7
  • Hitbox added to Frames 16 - 18: Damage: 5.5, Angle: 361, BKB: 30, KBG: 100, Effect: Normal
• Up Tilt:
  • Hitbox 0 BKB: 50 -> 40
  • Hitbox 0 KBG: 100 -> 110
  • Hitbox 1 BKB: 50 -> 40
  • Hitbox 1 KBG: 80 -> 90
  • FAF: Frame 38 -> Frame 30
• Down Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 8 -> Frame 6
  • BKB: 80 -> 60
  • KB: 60 -> 80
  • FAF: Frame 41 -> Frame 38
• Side Smash:
  • Startup: Frame 17 -> Frame 15
  • Multhit hitbox 0 extended by 2 units.
  • Multihit edited to hit downed foes.
  • Multihit Damage: 0.8 -> 1
  • Multihit Rehit Rate: 4 Frames -> 3 Frames
  • Ending Hit KBG: 193 -> 200
• Up Smash:
  • Hit 5 KBG: 150 -> 165
• Neutral Air:
  • Startup: Frame 8 -> Frame 6
  • Autocancel: Frame >35 -> Frame >30
• Forward Air:
  • Horizontal Momentum: -1 -> -0.5
  • Autocancel: Frame 47 -> Frame 27
  • FAF: Frame 56 -> Frame 46
• Back Air:
  • Landing Lag: 18 Frames -> 15 Frames
  • Hitbox sizes increased by 1 unit.
  • Hitbox 0: BKB: 30 -> 42
• Up Air
  • Landing Lag: 22 Frames -> 18 Frames
  • End Hit KBG: 170 -> 180
  • Hitbox added to the first 2 Frames of Landing: Damage: 4, Angle: 72 , BKB: 40, KBG: 180, Effect: Normal
  • Autocancel: Frame >60 -> Frame >50
  • FAF: Frame 62 -> Frame 52
• Down Air:
  • Landing Lag: 28 Frames -> 22 Frames
  • Vertical Momentum added to Frame 20: +1
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 20 - 21 -> Frame 20 - 22
  • Sourspot Angle: 361 -> 270
  • Sourspot BKB: 30 -> 20
  • Sourspot: KBG: 90 -> 80
  • Sweetspot Ground only hitbox removed and sweetspot air only hitbox edited to hit grounded foes.
  • Sweetspot increased in size and moved down by 0.5 units.
  • Sweetspot BKB: 2 -> 30
• Forward Throw:
  • Throw BKB: 42 -> 32
  • Throw KBG: 130 -> 140
• Down Throw:
  • Throw BKB: 95 -> 65
  • Throw KBG: 50 -> 60
• Charge Blast:
  • Full Charge Damage: 22 -> 23
  • Full Charge BKB: 20 -> 30
  • Full Charge KBG: 64 -> 74
• Laser Blaze:
  • Initial hit edited to cause flinching. The later hit is still flinchless.
• Cannon Uppercut:
  • Hit 2 Damage: 8 -> 9
  • Hit 2 Stage Damage: 6 -> 7
  • Hit 2 KBG: 134 -> 140
• Echo Reflector:
  • Air only hitbox removed and ground only hitbox edited to hit aerial foes.
  • Endlag reduced by 20%
• Absorbing Vortex:
  • Endlag reduced by 20%.

Cloud

Spoiler

• Jab 1:
  • Hitboxes 1 and 2 extended by 3 units.
• Jab 2:
  • Hitbox 2 extended by 1 unit.
  • Damage: 2 -> 3
• Jab 3:
  • Damage: 3.5 -> 4.5
• Up Tilt:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 6 - 10 -> Frame 4 - 10
  • Startup: Frame 6 -> Frame 6 (1.5* FSM until Frame 4 keep the original startup)
  • FAF: Frame 33 -> Frame 32
• Down Tilt:
  • Leg Intangibility removed. (It was redundant, as it was on the wrong leg)
• Up Smash:
  • Stale Hit Damage: 8 -> 10
• Neutral Air:
  • Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 8
  • Hitbox 0 extended by 3 units.
• Forward Air:
  • Landing Lag: 18 Frames -> 19 Frames
  • Damage: 14/14/13/13 -> 16/16/14.5/14.5
  • KBG: 90/100/83/83 -> 90/100/88/88
• Down Air:
  • Hitbox 0 Damage: 15 -> 14
  • Hitbox 0 KBG: 100 -> 95
  • Hitbox 1 KBG: 105 -> 95
  • Lingering Hitbox Duration: Frame 14 - 43 -> Frame 14 - 39
• Blade Beam:
  • Projectile hitbox sizes increased by 1 unit and extended upward by 2 units
• Cross Slash:
  • Hit 1 and Hit 2 Angles, BKB, WKB, and KBG edited to match Limit Break version.
  • Hit 2 Damage: 3 -> 2
  • Hits 3 and 4 Damage reduced by 1 ( 3 -> 2)
• Climhazard:
  • Hitbox 1 BKB: 130 -> 80
  • Hitbox 1 KBG: 25 -> 50
• Cross Slash (Limit Break):
  • Hit 5 Damage: 10 -> 9
  • Hit 5 Angle: 50 -> 60
  • Hit 5 KBG: 163 -> 140
• Finishing Touch:
  • Intangibility added on Frames 5 - 10.
  • Back Hit KGB: 390 -> 417

Palutena

Spoiler

• Air Speed: 0.91 -> 0.975
• Jab:
  • Startup: Frame 7 -> Frame 6
  • FAF: Frame 26 -> Frame 23
• Dash Attack
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 6 - 17 -> Frame 6 - 19
  • Damage: 9 -> 10
  • KBG: 90 -> 100
  • Lingering Hit Damage: 5 -> 6
  • Lingering Hit KBG: 70 -> 80
  • FAF: Frame 52 -> Frame 42
• Side Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 17 -> Frame 11
  • Attack duration sped up by 30%
  • Hit 1 Damage: 6/4 -> 5
  • Hit 1 BKB: 43 -> 0
  • Hit 1 WKB: 0 -> 75
  • Hit 1 KBG: 65 -> 100
  • Hit 2 Damage: 6/4 -> 7/5
  • Hit 2 BKB: 43 -> 53
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 55
• Up Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 10 -> Frame 8
  • Multihit Rehit Rate: 5 Frames -> 4 Frames
  • Endlag reduced by 10%.
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> 58
• Down Tilt:
  • Air only hitbox removed.
  • Ground only hitbox edited to hit aerial foes.
  • Startup: Frame 14 -> Frame 10
  • Hitbox size increased by 1 unit and lowered by 0.5 units.
  • Angle: 361 -> 60
  • BKB: 38 -> 40
• Side Smash:
  • Damage: 16/13/0 -> 17/14/0
  • All hitbox sizes increased and moved forward by 2 units.
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 58
• Up Smash:
  • Startup: Frame 18 -> Frame 13
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 58
• Down Smash:
  • Damage: 15/13/0 -> 16/14/0
  • Angle: 60/28 -> 28
  • Windbox WKB: 32 -> 40
  • Windbox sizes increased by 4 units
  • FAF: Frame 72 -> Frame 62
• Neutral Air:
  • Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 3.
  • Landing Lag: 20 Frames -> 15 Frames
  • Final Hit BKB: 30 -> 40
  • Final Hit KBG: 180 -> 190
• Back Air:
  • Damage: 12/9 -> 13/10
• Up Air:
  • Landing Lag: 22 Frames -> 12 Frames
• Down Air:
  • FAF: Frame 59 -> Frame 49
• Back Throw:
  • Angle: 361 -> 51
  • KBG: 70 -> 100
• Up Throw:
  • Damage: 8 -> 10
  • KBG: 60 -> 80
• Down Throw:
  • Damage: 5 -> 6
• Autoreticle:
  • Searching hitbox increased by 25 units.
  • Projectile BKB: 20 -> 40
  • Projectile KBG: 42 -> 50
  • FAF: Frame 68 -> Frame 54
• Reflect Barrier:
  • Startup: Frame 8 -> Frame 7
  • BKB: 10 -> 30
  • Barrier WKB: 35 -> 50
  • FAF: Frame 56 -> Frame 40
• Warp:
  • Intangibility Frames: Frame 16 - 31 -> Frame 11 - 36
• Counter:
  • Counter Duration: Frame 10 - 32 -> Frame 7 - 32
  • Counter FAF: Frame 75 -> Frame 55
  • Counter Attack Startup: Frame 5 -> Frame 3
  • Counter Attack Sourspot edited to match sweetspot
  • Counter Attack Sweetspot BKB: 40 -> 45
  • Counter Attack Sweetspot KBG: 75 -> 80
  • Counter Attack FAF: Frame 56 -> Frame 36

Little Mac *Updated*

Spoiler

• Jump V Initial Velocity: 26 -> 30
• Jab 1:
  • BKB: 10 -> 0
  • WKB: 0 -> 20
  • KBG: 80 -> 90
  • FAF: Frame 22 -> Frame 17
• Jab 2:
  • Jab 3 and Rapid Jab Windows swapped.
  • BKB: 10 -> 0
  • WKB: 0 -> 20
  • KBG: 80 -> 90
  • FAF: Frame 22 -> Frame 18
• Rapid Jab:
  • Hitbox sizes increased by 0.8 units
  • BKB: 0 -> 10
  • BKG: 50 -> 40
• Side Tilt
  • Counter Duration: Frame 10 - 32 -> Frame 7 - 32
  • Hit 1 (Hitbox 0) Angle: 60 -> 35
  • Hit 1 (Hitbox 0) KBG: 50 -> 30
  • Hit 2 hitbox sizes increased by 1 unit.
• Side Smash (All Angles):
  • Windbox WKB: 24 -> 50
  • Windbox KBG: 100 -> 80
• Neutral Air:
  • Landing Lag: 16 Frames -> 10 Frames
  • Autocancel: Frame >25 -> Frame >15
• Back Air:
  • Damage: 6/4/4 -> 7/5/5
  • BKB: 25 -> 35
• Up Air
  • Landing Lag: 22 Frames -> 14 Frames
  • Autocancel: Frame >40 -> Frame >30
  • FAF: Frame 42 -> Frame 28
• Grab/Dash Grab/Pivot Grab:
  • Startup: Frame 9/10/11 -> Frame 7/9/10
  • Grabbox sizes increased by 1 and extended forward by 1.5 units.
• Forward Throw:
  • Throw Angle: 45 -> 25
  • Throw BKB: 45 -> 35
  • Throw KBG: 104 -> 90
• Up Throw:
  • Throw Damage: 3 -> 6
  • Throw KBG: 104 -> 98
• Rising Uppercut:
  • Multihit Damage: 1 -> 2.5
• Slip Counter:
  • Counter Attack KBG: 50 -> 60

King Dedede

Spoiler

• Air Mobility: 0.63 -> 0.72
• Walk Max Velocity: 0.98 -> 1.08
• Initial Run Velocity: 1.36 -> 1.46
• Jab 1:
  • Startup: Frame 10 -> Frame 5
  • Active Frames: Frame 10 - 12 -> Frame 8 - 12 (This was to prevent a glitch in which the attack whiffs from the reduced startup).
  • Hitboxes moved from root bone onto the hammer itself
  • Angle: 70/105/361 -> 361/361/80
  • WKB: 50/48 - > 20/25/35
  • BKB: 25 -> 0
  • KBG: 10/10/100 -> 100
  • Jab 2 Window: Frame 19 -> Frame 16
  • Endlag reduced by 15%.
  • FAF: Frame 38 -> Frame 34
• Jab 2:
  • Startup: Frame 11 -> Frame 6
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 11 - 12 -> Frame 10 - 12
  • Hitboxes moved from root bone onto the hammer itself
  • Angle: 115/105/100 -> 90
  • BKB: 50/50/30 -> 55
  • KBG: 10/10/45 -> 0
  • Rapid Jab Window: Frame >24 -> Frame >18
  • Endlag reduced by 15%
• Rapid Jab Finisher:
  • Startup: Frame 6 -> Frame 3
• Dash Attack:
  • Knockback-Based Heavy Armor (Threshold of 140) added on Frame 7 - 28
  • Added Horizontal Momentum on Frame 28: +2.
• Up Tilt:
  • Startup: Frame 9 -> Frame 7
  • Sourspot Damage: 10 -> 12
• Down Tilt:
  • Hitbox sizes increased by 0.5 units and brought backward by 0.5 units.
• Up Smash:
  • Hitbox Duration: Frame 17 - 25 -> Frame 16 - 21
  • Endlag reduced by 20%
• Neutral Air:
  • Landing Lag: 15 Frames -> 12 Frames
• Forward Air:
  • Landing Lag: 30 Frames -> 25 Frames
  • Damage: 12 -> 13
  • Endlag reduced by 20%
• Back Air:
  • Landing Lag: 21 Frames -> 19 Frames
• Up Air:
  • Final Hit KBG: 150 -> 165
• Down Air:
  • Landing Lag: 30 Frames -> 26 Frames
  • Sweetspot hitbox sizes increased by 2 units
  • Sourspot hitbox sizes reduced by 2 units and moved upward by 10 units.
• Grab/Dash Grab/Pivot Grab:
  • Grabbox sizes increased by 0.5 units and extended by 1 unit.
• Forward Throw:
  • Throw KBG: 80 -> 90
• Back Throw:
  • Hit 1 Damage: 4 -> 5
  • Throw Damage: 9 -> 10
  • Throw KBG: 79 -> 89
• Up Throw:
  • Throw Damage: 5 -> 6
  • Throw BKB: 70 -> 60
  • Throw KBG: 72 -> 75
• Down Throw:
  • Throw BKB: 70 -> 60
  • Throw KBG: 82 -> 65
• Inhale:
  • FAF: Frame 78 -> Frame 63
• Gordo Toss:
  • Startup: Frame 29 -> Frame 25
  • Endlag reduced by 15%
• Jet Hammer:
  • Startup reduced by 25%
  • Full Charge Shield Damage: 0 -> 15

Zelda

Spoiler

• Jab:
  • Startup: Frame 11 -> Frame 8
• Side Tilt (All Angles):
  • Damage: 12/10/10 -> 13/11/11
• Side Smash:
  • FAF: Frame 50 -> Frame 44
• Up Smash:
  • FAF: Frame 64 -> Frame 60
• Forward Air:
  • Sweetspot Duration: Frame 9 - 10 -> Frame 9 - 11
  • Sourspot: Damge: 4 -> 7
  • Autocancel: Frame >50 -> Frame >44
  • FAF: Frame 53 -> Frame 47
• Back Air:
  • Sweetspot Duration: Frame 6 - 7 -> Frame 6 - 8
  • Sourspot Damage: 4 -> 7
  • Autocancel: Frame 52 -> 46
  • FAF: Frame 53 -> Frame 47
• Down Air:
  • Sweetspot Duration: Frame 14 - 15 -> Frame 14 - 16
  • Sourspot Duration: Frame 15 - 25 -> Frame 16 - 25
  • Sourspot: Damage: 5/4 -> 6
  • Sweetspot: KBG: 65 -> 105
• Dash Grab:
  • FAF: Frame 47 -> Frame 44
• Pivot Grab:
  • FAF: Frame 44 -> Frame 43
• Din's Fire:
  • Sourspot Damage, Angle, BKB, and KBG edited to match sweetspot.
  • Sweetspot: BKB: 50 -> 60

Dr. Mario *New!*

Spoiler

• Weight: 98 -> 102
• Run Initial Velocity: 1.5 -> 1.825
• Walk Max Velocity: 1.1 -> 1.3
• Air Speed: 1.1 -> 1.26
• Dash Attack:
  • Main Hit BKB: 90 -> 80
  • Main Hit KBG: 42 -> 40
• Side Tilt:
  • Hitbox 0 Damage: 7 -> 9
  • Hitbox 1/2 Damage: 7 -> 10
  • Hitboxes 1 and 2 increased by 0.25 units.
  • BKB: 8 -> 10
• Up Tilt:
  • Damage: 6.3 -> 8
• Neutral Air:
  • Sweetspot Damage: 8 -> 9.2
  • Sourspot Damage: 5 -> 5.9
• Forward Air:
  • Sweetspot Effect: Normal -> Electric
• Up Air:
  • Damage: 7 -> 8
  • BKB: 9 -> 10
  • KBG: 100 -> 90
• Down Air:
  • Autocancel: Frame >37 -> Frame >30
• Pummel:
  • Damage: 3.25 -> 3.5
• Back Throw:
  • Throw Angle: 45 -> 40
  • Throw BKB: 60 -> 70
• Megavitamin:
  • 1.2* FSM removed
  • Main Pill Damage: 5 -> 6
  • Stale Pill Damage: 4 -> 5
• Super Jump Punch:
  • Sweetspot Damage: 12 -> 13
  • Sweetspot BKB: 30 -> 35
  • Sweetspot KBG: 100 -> 95
  • Sweetspot Effect: Normal -> Electric
• Dr. Tornado:
  • Multihit Damage: 1.2 -> 1.3
  • Final Hit Damage: 3 -> 4.8
  • Final Hit BKB: 80 -> 50
  • Final Hit KBG: 130 -> 110
  • FAF: 75 -> 65

I

The goal of this mod is to aid characters in being balanced, yeah? So I think I should suggest changes that can very easily be molded by everyone. Now let's understand that I'm just trying my best to [and failing to] suggest some good changes that would be good for certain characters so that they aren't easily taken down by opponents. But a key flaw in this is that even when I listen, I can't seem to get it just right. So what I'll do is give suggestions for one character for now, and that character shall just be Ganondorf. I'll repost my changes with differences:

Spoiler: Ganondorf Changes, Proposed

Green Changes are Buffs, Red Changes are Nerfs, Purple Changes are Both/Neither

• Attribute Statistics:
  • Weight Increased: 113 => 118
  • Run Speed Increased: 1.218 => 1.35
  • Walk Speed Increased: 0.73 => 0.89
  • Air Speed Increased: 0.79 => 0.88
  • Jumpsquat Decreased: 7 Frames => 5 Frames
• Ground Moves [Normals]:
  • Jab Attack:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frames 7-8 => Frames 5-6
    • FAF Decreased: 29 Frames => 24 Frames
    • Damages Decreased [Body to Tip]: 6/8/10% => 6/8/9%
  • Dash Attack:
    • FAF Decreased: 38 Frames => 34 Frames
    • Early Hit Damage Decreased: 14% => 13%
  • Forward Tilt:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frames 10-12 => Frames 8-10
    • Damage Decreased: 13/12/12% => 12/11/11%
  • Up Tilt:
    • Base Knockback Increased: 60 => 110
  • Down Tilt:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frames 10-12 => Frames 8-10
    • FAF Decreased: 36 => 32
    • Damage Decreased: 13% => 11%
    • Angles Changed [Body to Foot]: 80/70/60 => 90/80/20
• Smash Attacks:
  • Up Smash:
    • New Hitbox Added:
      • Start-Up: Frames 12-13
      • Damage: 12%
      • Angle: 90 Degrees
      • Base Knockback: 15
      • Knockback Growth: 30
  • Down Smash:
    • Hit 1 Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 15-18 => Frames 12-15
    • Hit 2 Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 35-38 => Frames 30-33
    • Hit 1 Angles Changed: 160/140/154/50 => 160/150/160/150
    • Hit 1 Damage Decreased: 6% => 5%
    • Hit 2 Damage Decreased: 15/15/13% => 14/14/12%
• Grabs:
  • Standing Grab Start-Up Decreased: Frames 7-8 => Frames 6-7
  • Standing Grab FAF Decreased: 36 Frames => 32 Frames
  • Standing Grab Range Increased by 2 Units
  • Dash Grab Start-Up Decreased: Frames 11-12 => Frames 9-10
  • Dash Grab FAF Decreased: 45 Frames => 40 Frames
  • Dash Grab Range Increased by 2 Units
  • Pivot Grab FAF Decreased: 42 Frames => 38 Frames
  • Pivot Grab Range Increased by 3 Units
• Throws:
  • Down Throw:
    • Base Knockback Decreased: 70 => 50
    • Knockback Growth Decreased: 50 => 25
    • Angle Changed: 65 Degrees => 85 Degrees
    • Weight Dependency Removed for Better Combo Ability
• Aerials:
  • Neutral Aerial:
    • Hit 1 Early Damage Increased: 7% => 9%
    • Hit 1 Late Damage Increased: 5.25% => 7.5%
  • Forward Aerial:
    • Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 14-19 => Frames 12-17
    • Auto-Cancel Frames Decreased: Frame 55 => Frame 27
  • Back Aerial:
    • Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 10-12 => Frames 9-11
  • Down Aerial:
    • Start-Up Frames Decreased: Frames 16-18 => Frames 14-16
    • Auto-Cancel Frames Decreased: Frame 32 => Frame 25
    • Damages Increased: 19/17% => 22/19%
• Specials:
  • Warlock Punch:
    • Normal Grounded Damage Increased: 30% => 40%
    • Normal Aerial Damage Increased: 38% => 45%
    • B-Reversed Grounded Damage Increased: 38% => 50%
    • B-Reversed Aerial Damage Increased: 40% => 100%
    • B-Reversed Grounded and Aerial Knockback Growth Increased: 100 => 150
  • Flame Choke:
    • Grounded Start-Up Decreased: Frames 16-30 => Frame 10-26
    • Grounded Grab Boxes Active Increased: Frame 10-26 => Frame 10-45
    • Aerial Start-Up Decreased: Frames 19-31 => Frames 13-25
    • Aerial Grab Boxes Active Increased: Frame 13-25 => Frame 13-39
    • Aerial Recovery Distance increased by 40%
    • Grounded Damage Decreased: 12% => 10%
    • Aerial Damage Decreased: 15% => 13%
  • Dark Dive:
    • Attack Knockback Growth Increased: 90 => 110
    • Aerial Recovery Vertical Distance increased by 20%
    • Aerial Recovery Horizontal Distance increased by 30%

Again, it is almost like the same thing, but I did change up some things like the recovery distance of Dark Dive, the removal of every throw buff except Down Throw, changed the Jab Start-Up and FAF to be more reasonable and let the Jab still be the get-off-me move it should be. As well, Dash Attack's been changed up too, and other things like Flame Choke getting a decrease in damage as compensation for its better frame data, as well as Neutral Aerial getting a damage buff, also appear.

The point of the changes are, again, to give Ganondorf a better combo ability with his attacks at the cost of damage, as well as an actual grab. I think the changes would now be better since it should be very reasonable. Ganondorf would be more versatile and would likely become along the lines of a middle tier or high tier, and it would further tighten the gap between tiers. I'd accept any suggestion of change additions/removals, as it would be better for multiple people to aid in the suggestion process rather than one person.

Spoiler: Why Buffing Warlock Punch's Damage is NOT Bad, it's just now High Risk, High Reward

Oh, and as a side note, you still aren't reading it wrong, with the Warlock Punch changes. That move is too predictable to successfully hit, so I just went all out on the Punch damage buffs. Again, I am keeping one kind of silly thing here, so it would have to be with the one move that's too hard to successfully hit. Remember the whole frame data thing when you might think that the damage buff is too much. Warlock Punch is a situational move, and is an opportunistic move as well.

So what changes would you guys rather have so we can have a full consensus? I think the mobility buffs to make him true to Brawl and Melee's combined aerial and ground mobility is still reasonable. We can all do this one character at a time, though, so as to get bigger discussions going.

If Ryu's Shoryuken has no landing lag, imagine having the fingers to perfectly time five consecutive Shoryukens in a row. The perfectly inputted ones, that is.

Excuse me but Is it possible to change Ganondorf's Up-B to Dark Fist?

 

[ZeusLink]

If you mean one of his customs, sure, if you remove the grab box and replace it with the hitboxes from the dark fists.

 

[kendikong]

As a high level zard main, reading the changes.... he sounds damn beastly.
Dat mobility upgrade. All his aerials looking A tier now.

One thing I would suggest is an improvenent to his grab frame data. I know his tiny ass arms suggests that he shouldn't be a good grappler, but cmon.

I don't see why forward smash would have a fire effect though?

I have not tried the patch, but u do believe with his new air mobility, he will have true kill combos from dthrow even with rage. You guys might want to test that out, because that would mean 70% kills near the ledge every time

 

[Radical Larry]

Breezed through your post like Skim-Milk, but from what I did see, I don't think that buffing Warlock Punch would be a bad idea. I like the concept of a "fun move" (but only in moderation). However, I'd prefer for it to be faster with less damage than the other way around.

If you think about it, since WP is such a high risk move, I could imagine the faces of people who play this mod and land the reverse or aerial reverse. The instant death concept isn't at all bad, since it's so predictable, and it's more of a touch-up than an actual thing to make it viable.

But of course, if we wanted a faster Warlock Punch with somewhat less power, we would just give Warlock Thrust more power. Say like the front deals 20% damage at the fist and the reverse deals 30% damage? And then the explosion deals like 14% or something.

Though I would want to see Thrust go all crazy with the size of the explosion, make it more viable for stage spikes.

Vincent_Leo Well, by which way do you mean it? I mean, all we should really just do is give the fist attack of normal Dark Dive a damage scale of 19%. What should really be done in terms of Ganondorf's customs is the Dark Vault and Wizard's Assault Customs. All I can think of would be:

Dark Vault getting a heavy damage increase to deal 12% damage per latch and release.
And Wizard's Assault coming out 5 frames faster and the aerial attack having a disjointed meteor hitbox throughout.

But then again, if @KuroganeHammer could PLEASE dig out some custom move frame data and put it on his site, that would be pretty swell and much appreciated.

 

[ZeusLink]

But then again, if @KuroganeHammer could PLEASE dig out some custom move frame data and put it on his site, that would be pretty swell and much appreciated.

I second this.