Social Skyworld Hub - "Soaring through the Skys"

[LancerStaff]

So I was testing stuff again, namely how Dair's spike works. Things were going completely off the rails right away because the frames weren't matching up. I'm tired right now but something's wrong with Nair... Might actually come out on frame 5 rather then 4, which would kinda suck.

Anyway, now I completely understand how Dair's various launch angles work. There's four. Two on frame 10, then one on 11 and then 12. The fast angle (silly name, but it's only notable for it's speed), the spike angle (there's technically two depending on which side the opponent gets hit by it but there's a negligible difference), the KO angle (highest upwards KO potential due to BKB and angle), and the combo angle, in that order. I imagine we can stick with these names from here on out... (So fast Dair, Dair spike, KO Dair, and combo Dair.)

Real quick I need to say that the hitboxes on it aren't as bad as I previously thought. It's just that the tail-end of the trail doesn't have a hitbox. Imagine this dealie but upside-down as the visual: η And then this as reality: u So one side looks longer but isn't. And it actually looks like a frame 8 move but tons of moves don't match the animation in startup so whatever.

Anyway, think of our U broken into four pieces. First two are larger while the last two are smaller, meaning the second, bottom-most piece is nearly centered. That's the spike.

No question in my mind that it's significantly biased to the back. It'll spike if the opponent is slightly in front or less slightly behind... Meaning that we should always go for spikes with our backs turned. As an added bonus, the fast angle launches the lowest and farthest horizontally out of the non-spikes and we're more likely to get that if we mess up.

Also means that when we go for Dair spikes into a kill we should RAR it. We'll be lined-up perfectly for a Usmash if we cross-up and if we were going for a Fsmash we'll turn around anyway.

Planning on finally making that video now that I've worked all this out... But that might have to wait a week depending on how things go.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

The MU Thread is dead again... @Wintropy was wrong(and left it dead aswell)

 

[Koiba]

So I was testing stuff again, namely how Dair's spike works. Things were going completely off the rails right away because the frames weren't matching up. I'm tired right now but something's wrong with Nair... Might actually come out on frame 5 rather then 4, which would kinda suck.

Anyway, now I completely understand how Dair's various launch angles work. There's four. Two on frame 10, then one on 11 and then 12. The fast angle (silly name, but it's only notable for it's speed), the spike angle (there's technically two depending on which side the opponent gets hit by it but there's a negligible difference), the KO angle (highest upwards KO potential due to BKB and angle), and the combo angle, in that order. I imagine we can stick with these names from here on out... (So fast Dair, Dair spike, KO Dair, and combo Dair.)

Real quick I need to say that the hitboxes on it aren't as bad as I previously thought. It's just that the tail-end of the trail doesn't have a hitbox. Imagine this dealie but upside-down as the visual: η And then this as reality: u So one side looks longer but isn't. And it actually looks like a frame 8 move but tons of moves don't match the animation in startup so whatever.

Anyway, think of our U broken into four pieces. First two are larger while the last two are smaller, meaning the second, bottom-most piece is nearly centered. That's the spike.

No question in my mind that it's significantly biased to the back. It'll spike if the opponent is slightly in front or less slightly behind... Meaning that we should always go for spikes with our backs turned. As an added bonus, the fast angle launches the lowest and farthest horizontally out of the non-spikes and we're more likely to get that if we mess up.

Also means that when we go for Dair spikes into a kill we should RAR it. We'll be lined-up perfectly for a Usmash if we cross-up and if we were going for a Fsmash we'll turn around anyway.

Planning on finally making that video now that I've worked all this out... But that might have to wait a week depending on how things go.

So is it like this?

Red: Fast dair

Yellow: Spike dair

Blue: Kill dair

Purple: Combo dair

 

[LancerStaff]

So is it like this?

View attachment 79936

Red: Fast dair

Yellow: Spike dair

Blue: Kill dair

Purple: Combo dair

Pretty much... Although I forgot to mention in my grogginess that the spike Dair and the combo Dair overlap a little, and so do the kill Dair and combo Dair. They overlap because which angle you'll get depends on the frame you hit on.

 

[ReRaze]

Wouldn't the 'kill' part actually be the better 'combo' dair at certain (lower percents) since it has more hitstun?

 

[LancerStaff]

Wouldn't the 'kill' part actually be the better 'combo' dair at certain (lower percents) since it has more hitstun?

Perhaps, although I'm fairly confident that it wouldn't make much of a difference since the combo hit will combo into whatever anyway. I'll check it out later.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Perhaps, although I'm fairly confident that it wouldn't make much of a difference since the combo hit will combo into whatever anyway. I'll check it out later.

Yeah, we'll need proof for everyone

 

[The Merc]

ey, can someone please explain to me how BKB and KBG? Cause look at Pit's frame date, Utilt has similar BKB but better KBG than Usmash yet Usmash kills earlier? How does it work?

So I was testing stuff again, namely how Dair's spike works. Things were going completely off the rails right away because the frames weren't matching up. I'm tired right now but something's wrong with Nair... Might actually come out on frame 5 rather then 4, which would kinda suck.

Anyway, now I completely understand how Dair's various launch angles work. There's four. Two on frame 10, then one on 11 and then 12. The fast angle (silly name, but it's only notable for it's speed), the spike angle (there's technically two depending on which side the opponent gets hit by it but there's a negligible difference), the KO angle (highest upwards KO potential due to BKB and angle), and the combo angle, in that order. I imagine we can stick with these names from here on out... (So fast Dair, Dair spike, KO Dair, and combo Dair.)

Real quick I need to say that the hitboxes on it aren't as bad as I previously thought. It's just that the tail-end of the trail doesn't have a hitbox. Imagine this dealie but upside-down as the visual: η And then this as reality: u So one side looks longer but isn't. And it actually looks like a frame 8 move but tons of moves don't match the animation in startup so whatever.

Anyway, think of our U broken into four pieces. First two are larger while the last two are smaller, meaning the second, bottom-most piece is nearly centered. That's the spike.

No question in my mind that it's significantly biased to the back. It'll spike if the opponent is slightly in front or less slightly behind... Meaning that we should always go for spikes with our backs turned. As an added bonus, the fast angle launches the lowest and farthest horizontally out of the non-spikes and we're more likely to get that if we mess up.

Also means that when we go for Dair spikes into a kill we should RAR it. We'll be lined-up perfectly for a Usmash if we cross-up and if we were going for a Fsmash we'll turn around anyway.

Planning on finally making that video now that I've worked all this out... But that might have to wait a week depending on how things go.

uh.........?

So is it like this?

View attachment 79936

Red: Fast dair

Yellow: Spike dair

Blue: Kill dair

Purple: Combo dair

Oh, I see.

 

[LancerStaff]

ey, can someone please explain to me how BKB and KBG? Cause look at Pit's frame date, Utilt has similar BKB but better KBG than Usmash yet Usmash kills earlier? How does it work?

The damage done on the final hit is also a major factor separate from the resulting damage, otherwise Rosalina's Jab finisher would be as powerful as her Fsmash or something silly.

 

[Koiba]

ey, can someone please explain to me how BKB and KBG? Cause look at Pit's frame date, Utilt has similar BKB but better KBG than Usmash yet Usmash kills earlier? How does it work?

BKB means base knockback - How much knockback the move has at it's base

KBG means knockback growth - The higher the percent(?) the more knockback the move will give


Ex. Falcon Punch has 0 base knockback so at zero percent you don't go flying

But it has pretty high knockback growth so that's why you go flying at higher percents

Someone correct me if I did something wrong

Edit: Also the damage plays a big role in this too, but I don't know the specifics

That's also the reason why Luma does so much knockback because he does pathetic damage I think

 

[The Merc]

The damage done on the final hit is also a major factor separate from the resulting damage, otherwise Rosalina's Jab finisher would be as powerful as her Fsmash or something silly.

Oh I see. SO if the final hit of Pit's Utilt did 10% or something, it would be much better at KO, correct?

BKB means base knockback - How much knockback the move has at it's base

KBG means knockback growth - The higher the percent(?) the more knockback the move will give


Ex. Falcon Punch has 0 base knockback so at zero percent you don't go flying

But it has pretty high knockback growth so that's why you go flying at higher percents

Someone correct me if I did something wrong

See, this part I already knew and understood. The part that I didn't get was why moves that had more BKB and KBG than some of smash attacks KO later than the Smash Attacks.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well, the verdict on kill Dair vs. combo Dair is that they're both actually effective at comboing in different situations. And you don't get a whole lotta say when comboing anyway...

Let's just name 'em back Dair, down Dair, up Dair and forward Dair and make it simple, shall we?

 

[Zult]

http://youtu.be/R26iCSqQztA

^ Is that the video you are looking for?

One thing I took from this video is fast fall up air into upsmash. I found a consistent way to land them. Now I just want to try it on a human later. And I wish pit's ftilt would jab lock like dark pit's.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

One thing I took from this video is fast fall up air into upsmash. I found a consistent way to land them. Now I just want to try it on a human later. And I wish pit's ftilt would jab lock like dark pit's.

Well his Ftilt is stronger than Pittoo's, so it's to be expected

 

[ReRaze]

LancerStaff at TAS levels of precision on both sides, is ffac nair safe on shield? I get away with it offline on people and CPU's.
What about sh nair? Is it possible to time it such that you autocancel it just as the last hitbox comes out making sh nair (ff or not) safe on shield?

 

[LancerStaff]

LancerStaff at TAS levels of precision on both sides, is ffac nair safe on shield? I get away with it offline on people and CPU's.
What about sh nair? Is it possible to time it such that you autocancel it just as the last hitbox comes out making sh nair (ff or not) safe on shield?

Shaya said it's -3 on shield now... Assuming that's the soft landing, the hard landing would be -6. Hm... Actually, I can't get a soft landing from a SH Nair on my 3DS. Gotta be careful against those quick Uspecials OoS, but besides those I can't think of much that'd catch it.

Edit: Found a Japanese table with Pit's hitlag modifier data. Think it goes Jab1 > Jab2 > Jab3 > Rapid Jab Ender > Dash Attack > Ftilt > Utilt > Dtilt > Fsmash > Usmash > Dsmash > Nair > Fair > Bair > Uair > Dair.

ピット(Pit's name) 1(J1) 1(J2) 1.5(J3) 3(RJF) 1(DA) 1.2 (1)(FT)* 1, 1.2, 1.2(UT) 1(DT) 1(FS) 1, 1, 1.2(US) 1(DS) 1 - 1.8(NA) 1, 1, 2.2(FA) 1(BA) 1 - 2(UA) 1(DA)

*Pit / Horizontal Strong:
Tip (10%) 1.2 (10 was a link to this, whoops)

Aaaaand Dark Pit isn't on this list. Uh, I'm going to assume their Ftilts have the same modifier...

Duh, here's the list. http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/HS.htm Goes in 3DS character order with Luma after Rosie. Wii Fit's name is in English mostly and you can tell from the Jab data it goes from Doc to Lucina. Pit's 19th and has the [10] link in it.

 

[The Merc]

Shaya said it's -3 on shield now... Assuming that's the soft landing, the hard landing would be -6. Hm... Actually, I can't get a soft landing from a SH Nair on my 3DS. Gotta be careful against those quick Uspecials OoS, but besides those I can't think of much that'd catch it.

Edit: Found a Japanese table with Pit's hitlag modifier data. Think it goes Jab1 > Jab2 > Jab3 > Rapid Jab Ender > Dash Attack > Ftilt > Utilt > Dtilt > Fsmash > Usmash > Dsmash > Nair > Fair > Bair > Uair > Dair.

ピット(Pit's name) 1(J1) 1(J2) 1.5(J3) 3(RJF) 1(DA) 1.2 (1)(FT)* 1, 1.2, 1.2(UT) 1(DT) 1(FS) 1, 1, 1.2(US) 1(DS) 1 - 1.8(NA) 1, 1, 2.2(FA) 1(BA) 1 - 2(UA) 1(DA)

*Pit / Horizontal Strong:
Tip (10%) 1.2 (10 was a link to this, whoops)

Aaaaand Dark Pit isn't on this list. Uh, I'm going to assume their Ftilts have the same modifier...

Duh, here's the list. http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/HS.htm Goes in 3DS character order with Luma after Rosie. Wii Fit's name is in English mostly and you can tell from the Jab data it goes from Doc to Lucina. Pit's 19th and has the [10] link in it.

?!?!?!

Whoa........

Some many numbers. None of the I understand.

Argh, this is hurting my head trying to understand them.

Help explain?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

?!?!?!

Whoa........

Some many numbers. None of the I understand.

Argh, this is hurting my head trying to understand them.

Help explain?

Same feeling...and you got buffed

 

[The Merc]

Same feeling...and you got buffed

Yeah.... wait, wha-

Ah, dammit!

 

[LancerStaff]

?!?!?!

Whoa........

Some many numbers. None of the I understand.

Argh, this is hurting my head trying to understand them.

Help explain?

Hitlag modifiers increase or decrease the hitlag, the freezing effect what you hit something. Electric effects innately add an extra 0.5, and Marth, Roy and Ryu have this on every attack for example. Pit has them on his multihit aerials namely because it makes attacks safer on shield, and only the last hit counts when it comes to safety.

 

[The Merc]

Hitlag modifiers increase or decrease the hitlag, the freezing effect what you hit something. Electric effects innately add an extra 0.5, and Marth, Roy and Ryu have this on every attack for example. Pit has them on his multihit aerials namely because it makes attacks safer on shield, and only the last hit counts when it comes to safety.

I'm........ still a little confused.

I've heard of freezing frames plus higgling (happens on moves like Robin's Levins, Tink's Fsmash etc) what I don't get is the number side of things and how shields come into this. Maybe i just too much of a noob......

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Yeah.... wait, wha-

Ah, dammit!

Dead?

 

[The Merc]

Dead?

RIP

*insert sad Violin music*

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm........ still a little confused.

I've heard of freezing frames plus higgling (happens on moves like Robin's Levins, Tink's Fsmash etc) what I don't get is the number side of things and how shields come into this. Maybe i just too much of a noob......

Are you looking at the move abbreviations or the moves with multiple numbers? Because the ones with multiple numbers represent different hits, like Usmash having three hits and thus three numbers. Other multihits omit numbers when they're just ones.

And, uh, I brought up Pit's Nair to Kurogane and we eventually figured out that Pit's jumpsquat is actually frame 5 instead of 4. So that probably explains the trouble I was having... Must of been a typo when he first wrote it up and it went unnoticed.

 

[The Merc]

Are you looking at the move abbreviations or the moves with multiple numbers? Because the ones with multiple numbers represent different hits, like Usmash having three hits and thus three numbers. Other multihits omit numbers when they're just ones.

at probably explains the trouble I was having... Must of been a typo when he first wrote it up and it went unnoticed.[/QUOTE]

Uh, not sure what either of those are but it was this sentence that confused me

Shaya said it's -3 on shield now... Assuming that's the soft landing, the hard landing would be -6. Hm... Actually, I can't get a soft landing from a SH Nair on my 3DS. Gotta be careful against those quick Uspecials OoS, but besides those I can't think of much that'd catch it.

Just not sure what you mean with it

And, uh, I brought up Pit's Nair to Kurogane and we eventually figured out that Pit's jumpsquat is actually frame 5 instead of 4. So that probably explains the trouble I was having... Must of been a typo when he first wrote it up and it went unnoticed.

Oh. Is that bad?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

RIP

*insert sad Violin music*

Replace with air horn remix of sad violin

 

[The Merc]

Replace with air horn remix of sad violin

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Much better

 

[LancerStaff]

Uh, not sure what either of those are but it was this sentence that confused me


Just not sure what you mean with it



Oh. Is that bad?

You mean a hard landing vs. soft landing or what the -3 and -6 stuff means?

Well no, but having it be frame 4 would of been better. And like I said, it messed up my data so I need to retest some stuff...

 

[The Merc]

You mean a hard landing vs. soft landing or what the -3 and -6 stuff means?

Well no, but having it be frame 4 would of been better. And like I said, it messed up my data so I need to retest some stuff...

Yeah, that's it.

Oh, I'm sorry to here.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

You mean a hard landing vs. soft landing or what the -3 and -6 stuff means?

Well no, but having it be frame 4 would of been better. And like I said, it messed up my data so I need to retest some stuff...

Who are the 4 worst matchups against Pit/Dark Pit?

 

[LancerStaff]

Who are the 4 worst matchups against Pit/Dark Pit?

Dunno... Earth says Sheik and Sonic are his hardest and then a couple others would be challenging. Myself I'm finding it harder and harder to rate Pit's harder matchups.

Anywho, more labbing stuff. Found a technique I'll call a silent landing.

Basically, specials have aerial and grounded animations. If they don't have a separate transition animation (landing after Upperdash or Falcon Kick for example) then you can use the tail end of the special's animation to cancel out the lag from just landing, potentially down to one frame. Pit's normal landing lag when falling slowly is two frames but fast it'll be five.

Although, that's normally difficult to do. Pit has an easy way, and it actually lets him land with zero landing lag. Thanks to the properties on our Nspecial, the animation can be interrupted faster in the air and this'll carry over to when you land so long as the animation is going, as long as we've reached the point it can be interrupted before we land. You can even buffer a frame 1 shield or dodge just by holding the shield button during the firing animation.

Another quick thing... When jumping up off of a ledge, if you buffer an aerial, dodge or arrow then you'll be able to autocancel on any platform on your typical BF/SV stage. Doing it with an arrow results in zero landing lag to and looks kinda crazy.

 

[The Merc]

Dunno... Earth says Sheik and Sonic are his hardest and then a couple others would be challenging. Myself I'm finding it harder and harder to rate Pit's harder matchups.

Anywho, more labbing stuff. Found a technique I'll call a silent landing.

Basically, specials have aerial and grounded animations. If they don't have a separate transition animation (landing after Upperdash or Falcon Kick for example) then you can use the tail end of the special's animation to cancel out the lag from just landing, potentially down to one frame. Pit's normal landing lag when falling slowly is two frames but fast it'll be five.

Although, that's normally difficult to do. Pit has an easy way, and it actually lets him land with zero landing lag. Thanks to the properties on our Nspecial, the animation can be interrupted faster in the air and this'll carry over to when you land so long as the animation is going, as long as we've reached the point it can be interrupted before we land. You can even buffer a frame 1 shield or dodge just by holding the shield button during the firing animation.

Another quick thing... When jumping up off of a ledge, if you buffer an aerial, dodge or arrow then you'll be able to autocancel on any platform on your typical BF/SV stage. Doing it with an arrow results in zero landing lag to and looks kinda crazy.

Wait, isn't what you are describing basically auto cancel?

 

[LancerStaff]

Wait, isn't what you are describing basically auto cancel?

Actually autocancels (usually?) give you the hard landing lag and not zero. Pit's is five frames.

Found another tech, and this one's a biggie. If you cancel a jump with a double jump right away you'll jump lower and it has more gravity. Before, shooting an arrow out of this would hit you with the lag. Not anymore. Goes the perfect hight for an AC, which is important because you can't fastfall in specials.

Doesn't have to be directly out of a jump either. At any point when you're an inch above the stage just use your first double jump and shoot.

Also works out of a ledge getup, underneath BF's platforms, and would make Dark Pit's arrows more effective with this.

 

[The Merc]

Actually autocancels (usually?) give you the hard landing lag and not zero. Pit's is five frames.

Found another tech, and this one's a biggie. If you cancel a jump with a double jump right away you'll jump lower and it has more gravity. Before, shooting an arrow out of this would hit you with the lag. Not anymore. Goes the perfect hight for an AC, which is important because you can't fastfall in specials.

Doesn't have to be directly out of a jump either. At any point when you're an inch above the stage just use your first double jump and shoot.

Also works out of a ledge getup, underneath BF's platforms, and would make Dark Pit's arrows more effective with this.

Oh, so it's like an improve version of auto cancel?

So a better why of firing arrows?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Devil May Plop
Join the light side

 

[Devil May Plop]

Devil May Plop
Join the light side

I-I can't see...
It's too bright!

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I-I can't see...
It's too bright!

Nah, that's just Palutena's godly body...or Pit's awesomeness

 

[Zio~]

Can someone tell me or give me the think on where I can see the orbitars properties? I'm talking about frame data, how much damage it can take, how much stronger reflects projectiles, etc. (I'm at work and I can't look it up for myself)

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Can someone tell me or give me the think on where I can see the orbitars properties? I'm talking about frame data, how much damage it can take, how much stronger reflects projectiles, etc. (I'm at work and I can't look it up for myself)

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Pit