Since Aeriel Spin Charge (ASC) has never had it's own thread.

[R4ZE]

Guys seriously... ASC *****. and it deserves a thread discussing it.


-high damage

-if not degraded, has good killing potential by sonic standards

-hits 2 or 3 times not including follow up aerials or grabs(as long as u hold forwad)

-really good priority by sonic standards

-can be canceled by jumping, or holding sheild wehn you hit the ground

-can lead into a grounded spin dash combo, or grab

-great way to approach ranged spammers and ground controllers (wolf, oli, samus MK, Zelda) that sonic would otherwise have a really fun time trying to fight.

-due to priority, damage, knockback, and delayability, cancelability, and versatility in genral.. this is one of sonics best approaches. It probobly is the best approch, but you wouldnt want to use it all the time obviously because it gets predictable.

-a decent way to get back to the stage from high and far (due to higher air speed and ability to cancel into sheild or double jump)

-I also use it as a means to get back onto the ledge.
from a ledge hang, press down, then double jump up, immidiately down b and press forward and hold sheild. this may take a tiny bit of practice to get right, but its worth it. it counters most ledge gaurds because if they r too close, they get hammered by ASC, and if they r far charging a smash ur sheild cancel absorbs it and then they get punished... but this requires precision and timing to get right.

ASC in general is a great mindgame... because you cna excecute so many different things from a down b charge in the air.
-Spin shot
-ASC
-delayed ASC
-grounded spin dash
-wait until they drop their sheild
-SDJ
-SDR into HA
-let Down B fizzle out to bait apponent into approaching, then restartd your own approach
-ASC can be jump canceled as well allowing you to avoid ANY attack that would counter it
and after the jump cancel, sonic can re-execute ASC, or really do anything.. but it opens up a punish window possibly on the opponent. most of the moves that i have seen that can counter ASC have some kind of post delay if they hit nothing.



The purpose of this thread is to make sonic users aware of such a great move, and discuss things that you use ASC for. Also any videos of ASC ebing used properly would be sweet (i'll try to post one of my own up here soon)

ASC is the topic. lets do this.

 

[Browny]

I think its best applications are against tall characters, since it stabs shileds like crazy, but is pretty useless against kirbys shield >_>

but yeah i use this quite a lot, i might put a video up showing where i use it etc, might need a few days to sort through all my replays though

 

[R4ZE]

has anyone ever used ASC to tech chase sheild grab?

 

[JayBee]

Yeah. i do.

btw, there is a thread that talks about the ASC on this first page. Side-B and Down-B Mechanics: EXPLAINED + moar. by tenki. so there.

 

[Tenki]

ASC did originally have its own thread, on AllisBrawl, but I just copypasted it as the second post in the mechanics thread.

And it has pretty normal priority, imo.

I mean, it clangs with some projectiles, sometimes, but against other moves, it doesn't really beat out anything that other aerials can't.

 

[da K.I.D.]

but if theres ever a sitch, where youve been pressuring the other guy's shield, ASC is the €perfect move to either stab or break the shield, i pulled a 32% combo on the beginning of a stock to a friend, its a great move, but just like everything sonic does, it has to be excercised in moderation

 

[R4ZE]

See... I honestly don't think that you have to keep ASC on the back burners as much as his other moves.

ASC actually does not fair well against most projectiles. It ***** vs din's fire but everything else, a side b seems to have a better chance of going thru... (usually if im up against projectiles i just go OVER them with ASC, or thru them with side b. very occaisionally under them with SD... just depend son the projectile i guess)

But against grounded attacks, ASC seems to pwn babies. and especially because it can be sheild cancelled as well. and the grab obviously.



I use ASC probobly 2 or 3x as any of u would think is necessary, but the more i use it .. the better i get with it, and it actually really destroys kids in a lot of situations. Not to mention the fact that even if it gets predictable, it is easily cancelled at any time. There are mind games within the move itself. My friend players have even complained about it on numerous occasions saying "wow, that is really cheap" and "how is that fair?".

If a move is good enuff to pull complaints, and frustrate opponents, i dub it worthy.. and especially for sonic... has any1 els ever gotten any comaints about sonic moves? the only ones ive had are Fsmash, which is one of sonic's best moves, and HA... which was just ebcause people didnt understand it.

 

[Tenki]

don't overuse it though.

It's not too hard to hit Sonic out of ASC, or to shield the hits, spotdodge the grab, or just plain shieldgrab you out of it.

And you die at a lower % if you get hit while you're charging ASC (or down-B) since you're inputting downwards DI while charging.

Any aggressive player will take you out if you're overreliant on that move.

I noticed it too, in some Sonic dittos against some people on these boards (wifi). I'll interrupt a spincharge, they float back, and they'll charge another one. I'll repeat. It happens again. That's not lag, that's overcommitment to a move ;_;

and it's happened to me, too.

And I think in that one Ike combo vid, it might have happened to BT lol.

 

[MalcolmM]

Lol ASC is undoubtedly a great move, but its very punishable.

What characters are you using it so frequently against?

Most characters on the tournament scene completely obliterate it as an approach (Falco, ROB, MK, Snake, DDD)

I use it very sparingly since it is so easily disrupted. But if you have found it is rather unpunsihable by certain characters than please do elaborate. I could defintely use the information.

 

[Umby]

Potential Combo:

ASC -> Footstool -> Homing Attack?

 

[R4ZE]

there is no way in hell that DDD or MK can just pwn ASC. and any character with a tether grab is gimped vs asc imo.

basicly.. u have to use ASC differently vs different types of characters... and to say it isnt good against DDD, when u can hit 3 times... idk

 

[Tenki]

ASC mid/low approach > Dedede grabs/inhales you
ASC high approach > B-air OOS (if you land behind)/Dsmash
ASC cancel in front of Dedede > Dedede grabs you

MK?
F-air.

 

[da K.I.D.]

sonic does not have one move in his entire moveset aside from a tilted f-smash and a tipped back air that goes through mks f-air.

im noticing more and more in this game that defence is becoming worse and worse as an option as time goes on. your friends are proly mad because their method of shielding than counter attacking doesnt work. but like many other moves, (coughshuttleloopcough) the only defense is a better offence, once your friends realise that a pika down smash will **** any kind of roll sonic has and that attacking is usually the only way to beat a really good attack, youll proly stop dominating them

 

[R4ZE]

you can put the hypothetical situations up all day, the point is i actually put it to practice vs DDD and mk all the time. And im talking tournament winning mk's here. DDD... i dont even want to talk about, i fight against the best DDD in Florida.. whenever i fight any other DDD, it isnt even a match. I trample DDD's and ASC is still a good move vs him...

any approach has counters, thats why u play mind games. sonic has enuff approaches that u dont have to worry about that. But is ASC not one of the best ways to put damage off if nothing else? It's also a reletively safe thing to do for sonic.

I mean... just because a character CAN counter a move, doesent mean u should NEVER use it. thats completely rediculous... most characters atleast have 1 counter to any approach. and there is always dodging and sheiling, moving out of the way and retaliating... basicly whoever out mind games in general wins the fight anyway.....


I dont think ASC can really be divided into just low/mid/high.... there are def more variations in between.... the fact that the opponent has no real way of knowing which version u execute until he has a miliseoncd to respond also helps in inhibiting his counter.

 

[Tenki]

mm.

I'm just trying to bring up the point that it's not a good idea to overuse it.

On wifi I would get attacked out of ASC often - in other words, people who have delay to their reaction time could still knock me out of or grab me out of ASC. I played against a variety of players, some scrubby, and some tournament-quality, and it definitely isn't always a good idea to use ASC as a direct attack.

Against the better players, I just resorted to using ASC from a distance and shield cancelling into dash attack, a dashgrab, or a shorthop aerial OOS, since stopping slightly out of range usually baited a grab/attack that would normally hit me out of it, since they'd find ways to break it pretty often.

 

[JayBee]

The main purpose of the ASC is to apply pressure to an opponent, and make the throw game easier for Sonic, which he needs. Its mostly good as a combo starter, although through mind games we can use it for more than that. It also requires a strong sence of spacing, because, #1, you can get crushed if you do it far enough for them to react, and #2 if you like clashing then you need to be close enough to use the first stage well. btw, even if you clash, no one is at an advantage in terms of frames or stun, so you can still get beat up. I perfer to use it in chasing on hit, as well as the common advanced situations.

Sonic is one of the characters that you gotta use all of his moves, and understand them well, then you gotta not get hit, and mindgame well. not just ASC. Shuttle Loop is too good. Robo Beam> charge Gyro is too good. compared to that, ASC by itself is situational.

 

[R4ZE]

yes all moves are situational, and sonic doesent have any over powered moves i agree. but ASC is one of sonics best moves. not saying spam it. i totally agree. yes there are definatly counters. I think ASC boasts a lot of versatility compared to sonics other moves.


I think you guys should play around with it more. learning all the aspects of controlling ASC makes it a lot more appliciable in combat.

 

[da K.I.D.]

im not saying never use it either, just the way you presented yourself made it sound like "this is the only approach ill ever need" which was what i was trying to refute. other than that, its great, it racks damage hard, and kills sometimes too. its great, but just like every moves sonic has, theres a limit on how many times you can use it and have it still be effective, ASCs is just higher

 

[ChewyChase]

You can chain ASC's together to a great effectiveness on stages with platforms or slightly jagged terrain, otherwise it's more difficult on say, FD.

However don't bother trying to chain them when you're up against anything Ness-sized. Use a grounded spin charge and combo them a bunch with charge-jump-hit-hit-foostool; rinse and repeat.

(Barring MK)

EDIT: @ Teh Umby: On another post of mine I elaborated on this grounded spin combo that is similar to what you are proposing possible with ASC. a SC on the ground CAN complete this combo with certain shorter characters. There was no homing attack in it though, it was just using the hitboxes on the spindash to attack and the foostool to slam them down while you charge at them again. (BARRING MK AGAIN)

I'm going to look into that ASC combo anyway, see if you can repeat until they are off the stage or something. Only problem is probably they will escape or DI over/under/away you before you can homing attack, but then again I only rarely use homing attack because I prefer f-air for gimps and I'm usually dead if I would need the homing attack to recover.....

 

[R4ZE]

Anyone use ASC as a ledge gaurd? I like to jump out and ASC toward the stage, and then aerial if necesary, maybe get some stage spikes. of course u could ASC outward as well, seems like they wlays come up under it that way tho.


ASC is just a good approach is all im saying. thats all. sorry for not being clear. but sonic has sooooo many approaches, u cant really forget any of them if u wanna mind game. they all have their situational uses.

ASC has priority where his other moves dont... but hyphens have really good priority too... and dash attacks and SDR's are fast as hell... so great for catching ppl off gaurd.. not to mention the Side-b sheild cancel grab also ctaches ppl off gaurd alot... pivot grab any1? how about a walk forward into f-tilt. i mean... its endless. i dont even want to go into aerials.

 

[Umby]

Apparently I'm currently the only Sonic that doesn't abuse ASC unless I'm really itching for a grab.

 

[R4ZE]

dude, no sonics use ASC.. when i use it irl, no1 knows what country they are in.

 

[da K.I.D.]

this is my list for approaches in the order of how often i use them

SD
f-air
spinshot back air
grab/pivot grab
SC
ASC

 

[Greenstreet]

this is my list for approaches in the order of how often i use them

SD
f-air
spinshot back air
grab/pivot grab
SC
ASC

pretty close to mine except i wud swap ur 2nd and 3rd ones.... i love spin shot.

 

[Greenstreet]

i just have a problem with its speed thru the air. but i'll get used to it. makes it a little bit predictable/abusable.

(sorry bout the double post...didnt realise guys)

 

[Veil2222]

I've been using sonic hardcore for about 3 weeks now, and I have to say because of ASC's versitility and mindgame potential, it's on the top of my list for likely approaches. I'll use a list too, just to get it all out there.

In order of most used to least:
ASC (normal)
ASC (shield cancel)
SD through, lag cancel HA
Dash attack (spring or turn around f-smash followup)
ASC (shield cancel roll)
SD (first hit, spring cancel in air to hit them with the spring)
Hyphen smash
Spinshot
ASC (jump cancel)
Spring to lag cancel D-air/roll/grab
HA (just to screw with them)
Walk (just to screw with them)

That's about all the approaches I use, I mix in all of those usually once a game, but 4 versions of ASC are in there, two of them being at the top of the list. But really, this is the best thing about sonic, he has the most approaches of any character. It doesn't matter if some are weak or punishable, if they're expecting something else, they're pretty likely to react wrong to it.

I played a Falco the other day, he won our first brawl tournament here at Murray state, and I was able to beat him once, and get him to 1 stock 75% dmg our second 1v1 match (5 stock). This was the first time I had played his falco with my sonic, and he's been using falco for about 4 months. Almost every hit I got on him was just a well mindgamed simple attack. I got enough of those to rack damage, and eventually a f-smash, d-smash, bair, or u-air took him out.

You really can spam ASC if you know how to mindgame with it, just remember to toss D-smashes, canceled SD's, and jump-in-place SD in there to keep them guessing.

 

[R4ZE]

SD sucks. the only thing i use it for is to eat projectiles and cancel runs.... SC is superior in too many aspects.

and btw. ASC becomes a worser approach while fighting fox and falco due to their up smashes ****** famblies.


happy to finally see another ASC advocate. i think more of us will be born in due time.

 

[Tenki]

I should use SD more.

You can at least shield cancel it before you release (which is what I do with it most of the time), and then there's invincibility frames to take advantage of. Shield cancelled SDR is IMO easier to set up with SD than it is with SC, unless you're already on a large hill.

Also, you can't dodge while doing ASC/SD, so don't overuse it. Bah, it annoys me when I try to ASC and get hit out of it by an opponent's aerials. And it's even dumber when you get hit out of it while charging, because while charging ASC, you're doing downwards DI, which makes you easier to kill sideways.

On a more positive note, sometimes I ASC>shieldcancel>sh aerial, since you can't SH aerial out of normal spindash jumps.

 

[Veil2222]

Tenki pointed out the exact reason I use SD, the invicibility frames. I've sailed right through lasers, din's fires, turnips, most smashes, dash attacks, and most ariels with it, following through with the easy Nair combo. I've even chained 2 SD's together at the right percents mid air. Definitely not a move to overlook.

 

[R4ZE]

ya but still... basiclt what we got here is

SC:
- superiour speed... in execution time and most of the time in ground speed as well.
- usually more priority and damage due to being able to charge faster
- ASC which is easily one of sonic's best moves

SD:
-unvulnerablity frames, great for projectile eating.
-sheild canceling (which i find highly useful)

So obviously, SC gets used more form me because i approach a lot, SD is mainly used to counter approaches no? (of course i still throw in the occaisional SD for mind games... but just saying generally SC works better for me.)

i guess really i should just ask: what are some situations that the invulnerability frames are abuseable in? personally i have only found a few situations, but i havent played with it as much as most of sonics other moves.

 

[infomon]

R4ZE, you wrote SC twice instead of SC then SD

I use SD's invincibility frames to counter IC's ice shots, when they're at medium range using them to approach... SD just deflects them and get the ICs during their lag The ice shots are slow enough that the timing isn't too hard.

 

[Veil2222]

I've found mid air SD's do wonders against countering ariels, and if you're going to bail before you make it to your enemy for a mindgame or alternate attack, it doesn't matter as much which you use.

 

[Chis]

Fina used Lunar light!

Thread revived!

I couldn't let this great thread disappear, so R4ZE, do you think continually ASC>footstool is a good idea? It refreshs your other moves (not B>) and is a good way to get free damage.

 

[R4ZE]

I love ASC in general. Its basicly my favorite thing to do with sonic.


This weekend i somehow pulled off a PIVOT GRAB out of ASC!! has anyone else seen this? or done this?


unfortunately, i have no video, proof, or even an idea of how the hell i did it... but it happened like this:

I did a high ASC, (it came in on their head) they sheilded it, when sonic touched ground (where u normally sheild cancel) Sonic did an immidiate pivot grab (no sheild animation) and grabbed the guy that sheilded ASC!

it was pretty sick honestly, i havent been able to reproduce it at all though.. my reflexes know more about sonic than I do. =/

 

[Browny]

I dont think i ever truly appreciated the ASC until i actually watch videos of me playing and noticing how any other approach would have got me punished. i pretty much use it all the time now.

 

[R4ZE]

seirously guys... has anyone ever done a pivot grab when they sheild cancel ASC? i need to explore this, because I definately did it.

 

[infomon]

That's a cool idea... I never thought of doing it lol... but then I'm not very good......

 

[Boxob]

You know, I've never posted in this thread yet.

Wtf's with that?

The shield picot grab thing sounds pretty cool, I should try it out when I feel like being all fancy. I never really approach with ASC at all though.

 

[infomon]

Hey, I just realized something with ASC. As you all know, ASC gets released when you let go of your "downwards" control stick input, and I always thought Sonic just drops vertically while you're charging it up before you let go. But actually, you can swing the control stick anywhere from down-left to down-right during this time; ie. you still have aerial control of Sonic while you're charging down-B in midair. I don't know why I hadn't noticed that before.

I'm starting to try using this in two ways.... 1. so I can distance myself better when trying ASC approaches; like pulling back while charging so that I can push it forward to get two hits in when the ASC connects. Or 2. off-stage midair rollin'/recovery games, it just adds a little more depth to the game.... since the state of charging ASC itself has useful momentum control.

It's a subtle minor point I guess, but in case this helps other ppl...

 

[Espy Rose]

Hey, I just realized something with ASC. As you all know, ASC gets released when you let go of your "downwards" control stick input, and I always thought Sonic just drops vertically while you're charging it up before you let go. But actually, you can swing the control stick anywhere from down-left to down-right during this time; ie. you still have aerial control of Sonic while you're charging down-B in midair. I don't know why I hadn't noticed that before.

I'm starting to try using this in two ways.... 1. so I can distance myself better when trying ASC approaches; like pulling back while charging so that I can push it forward to get two hits in when the ASC connects. Or 2. off-stage midair rollin'/recovery games, it just adds a little more depth to the game.... since the state of charging ASC itself has useful momentum control.

It's a subtle minor point I guess, but in case this helps other ppl...

Heh...

Never knew that.

This'd be awesome for feinting an ASC to space properly.

Awesome.