Silver Tongue: Move Analysis Changes and Tips

[chipndip]

They can
Edit: hang on, my smartphone is being a ****...

Edit2:
They can, and it ain't hard either.
Also, as soon as you hit twice, the eggroll's remaining time is so short that you won't get far.
But as Slushy said: try it and see by yourself.

Btw., this is one of the worst websites to use mobile I've ever come across...

I'm only saying it because I do it myself. The main times Egg Roll gets gimped in my experience are:

1) Projectiles (duh).

2) They grab it (it's a thing).

3) I happen to accidentally use it instead of Egg Throw when I'm trying to recover.

Getting punished coming out of the roll isn't an issue because if you're only using it once in a while, they won't be looking to punish that move, so punishing it will be extremely difficult if you use it properly. Now I'm not saying they objectively can't p. shield twice, dash in fast enough, and land a punish. What I am saying is that it's highly unlikely. It's not like the move should be thrown out all over the place anyway.

 

[Slice~]

I've seen it often enough to be afraid of it happening.
Since it seems like I got different experiences than you with this issue, there is no use in arguing about it.

I got punished too often, and too easy for doing it, so I stopped.
If you don't need it; fine for you, but it doesn't work for me.

I'm a competitive player;
Even if it appears to be save, I'm not interested in getting free damage just because he got lucky, knows what he's doing or whatever. There's no downside in doing it, so I keep going.

 

[Sinister Slush]

How it's physically possible to grab it though is beyond me though...

Basically back in brawl if they faced the opposite direction of you and shielded the egg roll, they can grab once the attack hit their shield already cause you end up behind them but because facing other direction they can react and grab.

Doesn't happen often but it has happened to me before.

 

[Opana]

There's a glitch when trying to grab the ledge out of ground pound. Forgot to save the replay, but I'm somewhat credible amongst the Ganon and Mega Man boards.

Anyway, a friend of mine used it high up on non-omega battlefield, and he got stuck in the ground pound animation right on the ledge. He could only escape when my character nudged him.

 

[Slice~]

That sounds familiar.
I just can't quite remember why...

 

[Steinway]

Is there any frame data out for moves yet? Not just the aerial landing lag stuff. If not, how does one go about finding this all out? I know in Training you can slow it down to 1/4 and advance with L, but it's not frame by frame.

 

[Nikes]

No ones got frame data yet I think, may have to wait for the Wii U version.

 

[Sinister Slush]

In brawl there was hacks to help with frame data hitboxes/bubbles etc. So you'll most likely have to wait till Wii U for that stuff to be done. Not sure who'll do it this time around since Yika isn't going too and I have no idea how too until there's a way found.

 

[CandyCakes]

I love dtilting when opponents R recovering, it's just so good at gimps

 

[Steinway]

Okay, so I recorded on my iPhone 5S at 30 FPS at 1/4 speed in training mode (60/4 = 15 fps) so I could see the frames as they advanced. I found that jab comes out on frame 4 (possibly 5, I'm not 100% on that) and Ftilt comes out on frame 7. I tested it right up against a Jigglypuff and that's what I've found. Sounds like it checks out, and I'll keep doing more when I have more free time. Tough to figure out how long they stay out for but finding when they start is good for now.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's not 100% reliable but if people wanna do ways like that for frame data that's fine. Post results for some or all here whenever you feel like it.

 

[Slice~]

Nice one, Steinway!

Btw., am I the only one who feels like F Tilt got kinda bad?
It feels pretty slow after the hitbox comes out.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Is it slower?
Will be honest and say I haven't seen f-tilt in most of these Yoshi matches now that you mention it.

 

[Slice~]

The startup is fine.
But the lag after wards is pretty hard.

I fell in love with Up and Down Tilt though.

Up Tilt starts a free ~50% combo (often true combo), and Down Tilt is a major range-extended ***** slap.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'm now finding it really odd how little I've seen tilts in general now that I think about it lol

 

[Slice~]

It's all about Egg tossing, getting the egglay done and **** them while airborne.
As soon as people start realizing, what ridiculous followups can be done with the Up Tilt, ****'s goin' to boil.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Didn't some of us already find the double/triple Utilt to Uair on people even if they do decent DI?

 

[Slice~]

Yes, but i see it rarely.
I started forcing UpTilts just for that, but it's still kinda hard since it's absolutely against my normal playstyle.
I want to adapt though since it's pretty much one of our strongest tools.

 

[Slice~]

Yesterday I discovered, that after rolling, you blink 1 more time if you don't hold down the shield button.
Does that mean, we are longer vulnerable ?

 

[Sinister Slush]

If that's true that might certainly be the case. Not entirely good lol

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Guys.... Wavebounce eggtoss is god. I'm not talking b reverse, I'm talking wave bounce. It is going to be soooooo good when the wii u version comes out. This is going to be our biggest powerspike with a good controller im calling it now.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I've seen random wavebounces done from multiple Yoshi's by mistake. What makes it so good this time around? Just curious since I won't be playing it until 12 days later.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

A combination of the new bounce height mobility and end lag of eggtoss with our air movement speed.
In brawl wavebounce eggtosses were not worth how difficult they were. A less than perfect wavebounce meant we were getting punished, a perfect wavebounce meant a lot of distance, but we were flung away really far and hed to commit to being flung away pretty far.

NOW imagine that same distance except with full control of our mobility after the wavebounce, with less end lag. We now have an approach that is unpunishable by most of the cast even if they know its coming and even if it completely wiffs and at the same time puts us back into to neutral spacing. Just having that as a mixup option is incredible.

And if we do this while approaching something offstage, we go from near their face to back onstage with an egg flying at them.

It's not really going to replace sh eggtosses, but the fact that they both exist at the same time means our mixup game is going to be really strong.

 

[Sinister Slush]

You have any video examples?
Otherwise I think me constantly practicing wavebounce eggtosses made me feel like it's easy. Guess that's the mindset for some people like how some got DR down and find it easy.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Nah no vids. B reversing it is easy but its hard to get all you can out of wavebouncing on the 3ds. I don't even think wavebouncing was that hard in brawl it just wasn't worth it. Especially because grounded eggs were just better anyway.

Honestly the general reason that it will be good is because it is both safe and isn't outclassed by a separate option that does the same thing. See theres a certain height and distance that you want to eggtoss at to not get punished, any closer than that, and you'll be either setting up for an aerial, egglay, or making it empty. With the wavebounce, you can either do it in the same position you would usually eggtoss to make it safer yet harder to follow up on, or you can do it in the distance that you would normally do an aerial or an egglay and still have a safe eggtoss. It just makes us that much harder to flow chart against.

 

[Slice~]

I feel like wavebouncing Up B's is less important since we got so much control of it now.
I've been playing around with Wavebounce Reversal Up B's, but it is pretty much unnecessary since we can control it so well.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yeah I remember saying the same thing before. Which was why I wanted video evidence to see if it'd actually be useful or not.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Double post cause weeks of nothing to update on.

Patch 1.0.4
More lag on D-air, Dash Attack, and Neutral B. Not enough to be considered a huge nerf but still a nerf.

 

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

Double post cause weeks of nothing to update on.

Patch 1.0.4
More lag on D-air, Dash Attack, and Neutral B. Not enough to be considered a huge nerf but still a nerf.

In class, so I would love to hear more on any buffs/nerfs with 1.04

 

[Egg.]

Just downloaded the update, and I can confirm everything Slush said.

I can also confirm that all moves do the same damage, and haven't noticed if there are any knockback changes yet. So while we did get nothing but nerfs, it's nothing crippling. The dair change is barely noticeable, but there is definitely slightly more startup and endlag on neutral B so you have to be more careful when throwing that out. The lag after dash attack is also something to keep in mind - it's still pretty safe, but the lag gives your opponent enough time to get out of the way so no more guaranteed dash attack-uair strings at low percents.

EDIT: As some have pointed out, we can't slide off the edge with Down+B anymore. We can still slide off of angled surfaces in stages like Yoshi's Island and Corneria - it just stops you before you fall off edge. I never really made use of that technique, but I could see it being disappointing for those who used it a lot.

 

[Nikes]

Even if it's only a little bit of extra lag that's crippling enough for our dash attack. This game needs more followups, not less Nintendo.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Dunno about others but the 3 or 4 times I had a 3DS in my hands, I didn't enjoy using DA much anyways to approach.
Anyways, can somebody record any kind of casual for glory matches or something just so others can see the new lag Neutral B and DA have.

 

[Nikes]

I use dash attack a lot (but smartly, not spammed) so to me it's going to be more than noticeable. For Glory mode is too much filled with people who arent willing to learn how to get around stuff and Nintendo goes by their opinions sadly, hence people calling yoshi broken top tier etc etc.

Anyway I can go record something, will keep an eye out for any other changes naturally.

 

[Sinister Slush]

DA Uair may not be a thing anymore cause able to do it before they get out of hitstun to airdodge I guess, but now the option of DA Usmash is a thing prolly by baiting Airdodge lol.
But yeah For glory is what most of you can do until tournaments happen in your areas. TX is gonna have like a tournament every week or two (including my towns weeklies on Thursday) so I'll very likely be experiencing more Offline actual people over for glory Online people.

 

[fill]

DA Uair may not be a thing anymore cause able to do it before they get out of hitstun to airdodge I guess, but now the option of DA Usmash is a thing prolly by baiting Airdodge lol.

are you talking about doing a DA, then dacus? or DA to SH tomahawk up-smash?

 

[Sinister Slush]

DACUS is cancelling our DA to do an Usmash, but unfortunately for Yoshi despite both those moves being changed he still goes to a total halt.
So I mean DA and wait for opponent to react in the air by either jumping away, airdodging to the ground (or even just going down) or even going after you to attack. If either of the last two options that can be a free USmash prolly.

 

[Yoshi-hara]

I think the most noticeable change is the Neutral B lag, but... Is it me or does the Egg Lay appears to have more range now?

 

[chipndip]

Only thing I'm mainly concerned with is dash attack. I saw nerfs coming, but these seem pretty fair tbh. I'll take it.

Now to see my girl Palutena, and my boy Pit.

 

[Z-Bone]

I don't understand why they rely on nerfs over buffs when balancing the game. Leave the characters that play really well alone and buff other characters up to their level. Why lower the bar for everyone and make a lot of people mad?

The fact that Charizard or DK didn't get any huge buffs is just strange.

 

[Sinister Slush]

They're doing both nerfs and buffs.
And because think about a game where eventually all the characters are so buffed they can all be considered SSS tier, sure that's a "balance" in a sense when everything is broken, nothing is weak while it's strong or even vice versa if everything nerfed and 0 buffs.

But that'd be such an incredibly boring game, why bother playing it at all? It works with games like League for example, it can kinda sorta work with Smash 4 as long as they don't do it every 2-9 months otherwise to be honest I'd be fine with small bits of updates every so often.

Also do your research on characters before saying nothing was buffed/nerfed about them. DK and charizard got some stuff changed with them.

Edit: forgot to add into OP earlier that Yoshi can no longer do slope shenanigans with DownB