Sigma Busters: Official Discussion Thread

[Glubbfubb]

Sorry I'm late to this - but it seems like there's a lot of headway, which is awesome to see!


I don't really think they'd absolutely be "too complex" off the bat, it'd just depend on how you handled them. A good example of this is, funnily enough, Rosalina - she's a lot simpler than, say, Zato-1, most of the cast of HFTF, or otherwise, but she's still unmistakably a puppet fighter. If you have a concept you wanna go for - go for it!


I think these are great calls. Though - one thing I'd maybe suggest, is that if you were to go for a traditional gi-wearer of some kind, it might be a good idea to step away from the traditional shoto archetype for them, and do something a little different. Not necessarily a "joke character" like Dan, but an alternate take on the general design idea - whether it be akin to Makoto (SF)'s speedy grappler nature, Akira (VF)'s very high skill ceiling, Ryoko (FH)'s high-risk-high-reward powerhous nature, or something otherwise - could be a lot of fun. And, come to think of it - imagining how "alien martial arts" might look could be interesting, considering the potential of how it'd look for unique alien physiology!


This is a great call! It's nice to see the characters starting to actually take shape!


I really like this, at least by the sounds of things. Alpha's bright, visually distinct colours really help characters to stand out - and I think it's also worth noting the animations from these games are pretty neat too! Though - would you want to go for 2D, sprite-based characters, or 3D characters on a 2D plane? (I feel like it'd be important to make the distinction early!)


Random thought, but - Ahab's design (loosely) kind of reminds me of Duff McWhalen from Mega Man X5 - maybe it'd be a useful reference of some kind?

Okay, I absolutely love this Kamen Rider face mask look. Especially how it opens up to reveal her face underneath - that's awesome.


Samson looks really fun! Him constantly having a DreamWorks smile is honestly pretty funny - and his Star Summon neutral special is really cool too, vaguely reminding me of Mega Man Maker's take on Mega Man 5's Star Man. It seems like a pretty fun take on the concept!

BTW the game will most likely take a 2d art style, just like Alpha

 

[Kirbeh]

BTW the game will most likely take a 2d art style, just like Alpha

Do make note that sprite work (depending on how complex) will be more time consuming/costly to produce than 3D models. They're also much more difficult to edit after the fact which likely also means alt costumes will either need to be dropped from the project (if you had them in mind) or again be more difficult to create as your essentially redrawing over every sprite.

Alternatively, 3D models could still be used as a base and then converted into sprites by taking pictures frame by frame.

If 2D is your vision for the project though, we're going to need a dedicated sprite artist (more than one really, 2-3 ideally.) I can try to learn sprite art, but this is an area where I have absolutely no experience, so it'd take some time.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Do make note that sprite work (depending on how complex) will be more time consuming/costly to produce than 3D models. They're also much more difficult to edit after the fact which likely also means alt costumes will either need to be dropped from the project (if you had them in mind) or again be more difficult to create as your essentially redrawing over every sprite.

Alternatively, 3D models could still be used as a base and then converted into sprites by taking pictures frame by frame.

If 2D is your vision for the project though, we're going to need a dedicated sprite artist (more than one really, 2-3 ideally.) I can try to learn sprite art, but this is an area where I have absolutely no experience, so it'd take some time.

Good point, I think since we're both taking the time to practice, we should start small, that is why I feel like Levi will be the best character to create first since he has the simplest to make moveset and therefore the most simple animations to make, though that is up to you. If there is art style your better at making, then I don't mind shifting to that as long as we keep the general coloring style. Since Levi is quite close to Marth/Roy in terms of fighting style, maybe referencing them for attack animations can be smart, as long as you don't trace of course.

 

[Kirbeh]

Brief continuation on the subject above; I do have a basic understanding for turning drawings into sprites, but I've never actually done it. From the tutorials I've read up on however, for a sprite of similar detail to Capcom's (at least for Alpha,) converting a single drawing i.e. one frame, you're looking at a roughly 3-to-4-hour workload per sprite. This is just the conversion process and doesn't account for drawing the base image. Using Alpha as a base of reference you're also looking at 300+ sprites per character.

Sorry I'm late to this - but it seems like there's a lot of headway, which is awesome to see!


I don't really think they'd absolutely be "too complex" off the bat, it'd just depend on how you handled them. A good example of this is, funnily enough, Rosalina - she's a lot simpler than, say, Zato-1, most of the cast of HFTF, or otherwise, but she's still unmistakably a puppet fighter. If you have a concept you wanna go for - go for it!

You don't know how long I looked at HFTF in confusion before realizing you meant Heritage for the Future. The absence of the JJBA in front really threw me off.

I think these are great calls. Though - one thing I'd maybe suggest, is that if you were to go for a traditional gi-wearer of some kind, it might be a good idea to step away from the traditional shoto archetype for them, and do something a little different. Not necessarily a "joke character" like Dan, but an alternate take on the general design idea - whether it be akin to Makoto (SF)'s speedy grappler nature, Akira (VF)'s very high skill ceiling, Ryoko (FH)'s high-risk-high-reward powerhous nature, or something otherwise - could be a lot of fun. And, come to think of it - imagining how "alien martial arts" might look could be interesting, considering the potential of how it'd look for unique alien physiology!

I actually didn't have shoto in mind at all for the martial artist archetype. I was thinking more along the lines of a Gen from SF or maybe Jam from GG. Now that you mention it though some sort of shoto homage might be good to consider as well.

As for "alien" martial arts, while I do like the idea, another angle I was thinking of was just a normal human. I don't know if Glubbfubb intends to have any human characters or strictly stick to aliens, but I thought it'd be kind of neat for a more traditional character who also happens to be just a human. As tradtional as it gets for fighters, but in a cast full of aliens and robots, it makes them stand out. Plus, taking everyone on with martial arts instead of alien tech/weapons/alien physiology helps them stand out even more.

Random thought, but - Ahab's design (loosely) kind of reminds me of Duff McWhalen from Mega Man X5 - maybe it'd be a useful reference of some kind?

Duff McWhalen! Okay, this the exact body shape/head to body ratio I was thinking of when reading Ahab's moveset description for the first time. I wish I'd remembered this guy. Thanks for bring them up.

Okay, I absolutely love this Kamen Rider face mask look. Especially how it opens up to reveal her face underneath - that's awesome.

ty

 

[Glubbfubb]

Brief continuation on the subject above; I do have a basic understanding for turning drawings into sprites, but I've never actually done it. From the tutorials I've read up on however, for a sprite of similar detail to Capcom's (at least for Alpha,) converting a single drawing i.e. one frame, you're looking at a roughly 3-to-4-hour workload per sprite. This is just the conversion process and doesn't account for drawing the base image. Using Alpha as a base of reference you're also looking at 300+ sprites per character.



You don't know how long I looked at HFTF in confusion before realizing you meant Heritage for the Future. The absence of the JJBA in front really threw me off.


I actually didn't have shoto in mind at all for the martial artist archetype. I was thinking more along the lines of a Gen from SF or maybe Jam from GG. Now that you mention it though some sort of shoto homage might be good to consider as well.

As for "alien" martial arts, while I do like the idea, another angle I was thinking of was just a normal human. I don't know if Glubbfubb intends to have any human characters or strictly stick to aliens, but I thought it'd be kind of neat for a more traditional character who also happens to be just a human. As tradtional as it gets for fighters, but in a cast full of aliens and robots, it makes them stand out. Plus, taking everyone on with martial arts instead of alien tech/weapons/alien physiology helps them stand out even more.



Duff McWhalen! Okay, this the exact body shape/head to body ratio I was thinking of when reading Ahab's moveset description for the first time. I wish I'd remembered this guy. Thanks for bring them up.


ty

We don't exactly have to match alphas sprite style, I'm just referencing it for how it colors its characters, the saturation, if there is an alternate way for you to more easily sprite characters while be distinct from Aether I am open for suggestions, you are my artist so you have choice in the matter. Really I am grateful that someone is interested in helping me so I don't want you to overwork yourself, make what you think will be a good artstyle.

Also I wasn't intending to add humans, since it's a galaxy far far away, but I am open to a human like alien though.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

I think there's a variety of ways you could take this - and if you are deadset on sprite art, then it's by no means impossible, it'd just be a little more difficult. Kirbeh's suggestion of rotoscoping could work pretty well - and if you wanted, you could maybe take inspiration from how The Rumble Fish handled this for the sake of more customisation - but it'd be a lot more difficult to do than 3D models, and far more time-consuming for work that could pretty easily end up getting scrapped. It's also worth noting that, in terms of prototyping, it's way easier to prototype with 3D models (as you don't have to have all of your art handled in advance for them - you can just use mannequin models.)

Though... if you wanted to keep a similarly colourful style to the Alpha series, the immediate idea that springs to mind is using cel-shading. It'd be a good way of being able to keep a similar look to those games while making things way easier in terms of animation, scaling, reworking, customisation, and so forth.

One thing I wouldn't recommend, though, is having 3D models and then a pixellated overlay - unless you're specifically going for some kind of PSX/Saturn-esque aesthetic (which I don't think you are?) Pixellated overlays tend not to look too great and end up causing a degree of shimmer, which looks really bad on more modern screens.

We don't exactly have to match alphas sprite style, I'm just referencing it for how it colors its characters, the saturation, if there is an alternate way for you to more easily sprite characters while be distinct from Aether I am open for suggestions, you are my artist so you have choice in the matter. Really I am grateful that someone is interested in helping me so I don't want you to overwork yourself, make what you think will be a good artstyle.

Also I wasn't intending to add humans, since it's a galaxy far far away, but I am open to a human like alien though.

Okay, hear me out: Roswell-esque "Grey" in a karate gi. Like, the silly little cartoon aliens with the big heads or whatever. I think it'd be pretty goofy but fitting for this kind of role - plus, it fits the humanoid build pretty well, and you could always have their alt be like, green. Also, silly character idea - have them as an "Earth weeb". Like, they really like this one random backwater planet in the middle of nowhere and just never shut up about how cool it is. They've visited a few times and think "hoomans" are such a weird and curious people, and never shut up about how they have these crazy trinkets like "sporks" and "tinned food".

 

[Glubbfubb]

I think there's a variety of ways you could take this - and if you are deadset on sprite art, then it's by no means impossible, it'd just be a little more difficult. Kirbeh's suggestion of rotoscoping could work pretty well - and if you wanted, you could maybe take inspiration from how The Rumble Fish handled this for the sake of more customisation - but it'd be a lot more difficult to do than 3D models, and far more time-consuming for work that could pretty easily end up getting scrapped. It's also worth noting that, in terms of prototyping, it's way easier to prototype with 3D models (as you don't have to have all of your art handled in advance for them - you can just use mannequin models.)

Though... if you wanted to keep a similarly colourful style to the Alpha series, the immediate idea that springs to mind is using cel-shading. It'd be a good way of being able to keep a similar look to those games while making things way easier in terms of animation, scaling, reworking, customisation, and so forth.

One thing I wouldn't recommend, though, is having 3D models and then a pixellated overlay - unless you're specifically going for some kind of PSX/Saturn-esque aesthetic (which I don't think you are?) Pixellated overlays tend not to look too great and end up causing a degree of shimmer, which looks really bad on more modern screens.


Okay, hear me out: Roswell-esque "Grey" in a karate gi. Like, the silly little cartoon aliens with the big heads or whatever. I think it'd be pretty goofy but fitting for this kind of role - plus, it fits the humanoid build pretty well, and you could always have their alt be like, green.

I am just worried about animating in 3d since I've been practicing using 2d sprites and now 3d and I don't know how to do 3d properly.

 

[Kirbeh]

I am just worried about animating in 3d since I've been practicing using 2d sprites and now 3d and I don't know how to do 3d properly.

It'd take some getting used to for sure since we'd be learning for the first time, but 3D animation is really just a matter of posing the model and adjusting the number of frames it holds each pose for. Still time consuming, but with a lot more wiggle room than sprites, plus the ability to easily go back and edit things or add new animations to the existing model rather than drawing whole new sprites.

The real hurdle for us would actually be the creation of said models. I'm guessing you don't have any experience using Blender or other 3D software, right?
I don't either mind you, but I've been looking at tutorials (mostly for simple low poly models atm.) Plus, as KneeOfJustice99 mentioned, it'd make testing a lot easier especially with all the trial and error we'll likely need to go through.

For example, this is the sort of look I'm looking to achieve for my own pet project:

Spoiler

3D models are very versatile, even you're trying to achieve a more stylized 2D inspired look. I mean, look no further than Guilty Gear, Hi-Fi-Rush or Bomb Rush Cyberfunk (though the former is definitely way beyond our skill level/potential scope.) Artist is Priichu btw.

 

[Glubbfubb]

It'd take some getting used to for sure since we'd be learning for the first time, but 3D animation is really just a matter of posing the model and adjusting the number of frames it holds each pose for. Still time consuming, but with a lot more wiggle room than sprites, plus the ability to easily go back and edit things or add new animations to the existing model rather than drawing whole new sprites.

The real hurdle for us would actually be the creation of said models. I'm guessing you don't have any experience using Blender or other 3D software, right?
I don't either mind you, but I've been looking at tutorials (mostly for simple low poly models atm.) Plus, as KneeOfJustice99 mentioned, it'd make testing a lot easier especially with all the trial and error we'll likely need to go through.

For example, this is the sort of look I'm looking to achieve for my own pet project:

Spoiler

View attachment 382838

3D models are very versatile, even you're trying to achieve a more stylized 2D inspired look. I mean, look no further than Guilty Gear, Hi-Fi-Rush or Bomb Rush Cyberfunk (though the former is definitely way beyond our skill level/potential scope.) Artist is Priichu btw.

Do you think 3d models on a 2d stage and background will clash? And if animating 3D models in 2D frames is easy, I don't mind using 3D models. I am just more experienced with 2d sprites, hence why I was using them currently.

There is also the issue that Godot, the engine I am running for the game, is a bit glitchy when handling 3d models, sorta the inverse on how Unity is glitchy with 2d sprites.

 

[Kirbeh]

Do you think 3d models on a 2d stage and background will clash? And if animating 3D models in 2D frames is easy, I don't mind using 3D models. I am just more experienced with 2d sprites, hence why I was using them currently.

There is also the issue that Godot, the engine I am running for the game, is a bit glitchy when handling 3d models, sorta the inverse on how Unity is glitchy with 2d sprites.

It'd be tricky but not out of the realm of possibility. The characters would need to be textured in such a way to give off a pseudo 2D look. Sort of like the Priichu models I posted earlier, but it also depends on who you style the backgrounds.

I can't think of too many examples that do 3D characters on 2D backgrounds tbh, the other way around is the more common of the two.

But there are examples of this. Oxenfree for starters; the characters are in fact 3D models but the textures and lighting help them blend naturally with the painted 2D backgrounds.

Spoiler

 

[Glubbfubb]

It'd be tricky but not out of the realm of possibility. The characters would need to be textured in such a way to give off a pseudo 2D look. Sort of like the Priichu models I posted earlier, but it also depends on who you style the backgrounds.

I can't think of too many examples that do 3D characters on 2D backgrounds tbh, the other way around is the more common of the two.

But there are examples of this. Oxenfree for starters; the characters are in fact 3D models but the textures and lighting help them blend naturally with the painted 2D backgrounds.

Spoiler

View attachment 382842

TBH this feels like a type of thing that we decide on once we get the charatcer animations, it's just the framework I am making is inteded for 2d characters, so I don't know how much jank using 3d characters will give

 

[Glubbfubb]

I'll just say this upfront, I don't want to be seen as unreasonable when making this project, I know I have been making some demands but I want to cultivate a healthy environment. It is just that 3d animation is something I have never done before and it is something Godot is not as good as running compared to 2d games, and for a fighting game accuracy is important. I don't want to swap to a new engine due to a combo of lack of experience, and lack of trust, you can blame what Unity did for that mindset, that is why I hate subscriptions. So I am glad that got this out there, and I hope everyone can understand.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

I'll just say this upfront, I don't want to be seen as unreasonable when making this project, I know I have been making some demands but I want to cultivate a healthy environment. It is just that 3d animation is something I have never done before and it is something Godot is not as good as running compared to 2d games, and for a fighting game accuracy is important. I don't want to swap to a new engine due to a combo of lack of experience, and lack of trust, you can blame what Unity did for that mindset, that is why I hate subscriptions. So I am glad that got this out there, and I hope everyone can understand.

For the record - I don't think it's unreasonable! After all, it's completely fair to have preferences - and you've mentioned your reasons for them, which are honestly pretty fair. We're only mentioning that it's more difficult - but in terms of 2D animation, you could probably work with basic keyframes to start with, then flesh them out later. While spriting is more difficult - like I mentioned earlier, it's not impossible - and Kirbeh's suggestion of rotoscoping 3D models into 2D sprites could potentially work too, if you wanted! Tl;dr - yeah, I totally understand, it's all good.

 

[Glubbfubb]

For the record - I don't think it's unreasonable! After all, it's completely fair to have preferences - and you've mentioned your reasons for them, which are honestly pretty fair. We're only mentioning that it's more difficult - but in terms of 2D animation, you could probably work with basic keyframes to start with, then flesh them out later. While spriting is more difficult - like I mentioned earlier, it's not impossible - and Kirbeh's suggestion of rotoscoping 3D models into 2D sprites could potentially work too, if you wanted! Tl;dr - yeah, I totally understand, it's all good.

2D Key frames sound smart, since that is essentially what im doing when making my test character.

Also for my next character, the concept is essentially a skeletal monkey that summons bones to use as a bow staff, so essentially skeleton sun wukong, would that work well as a "traditional" fighting game character.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Also for my next character, the concept is essentially a skeletal monkey that summons bones to use as a bow staff, so essentially skeleton sun wukong, would that work well as a "traditional" fighting game character.

I think this could potentially be quite interesting. One idea that springs to mind is that they might be animated by some kind of "soul fire" - hence how they exist as a skeleton in the first place, and something that could give them a unique look - but this seems pretty interesting! Plus, staffs are... surprisingly underused in fighting games. Beyond specifically weapons-based fighters, I think the only major picks that spring to mind are maybe SNK's Duck King, SonSon from MVC2, then uhhh technically Venom from Guilty Gear? (Though that's a pool cue.) Oh, and Alpha 2's Rolento.

One idea that potentially springs to mind is - maybe they could seperate their staff into two smaller escrima sticks (akin to Eagle's in Street Fighter Alpha 3 Upper) for closer/weaker attacks and then fuse them back together into a staff (akin to uhhhh Duck King???) for longer-range/more powerful attacks? Ech, just a thought. Given it's made of bones, it could work pretty well - and I guess you could take inspiration from how Pit's attacks look, to a certain extent.

That said, the idea of a fairly small and mobile character with surprising range is an interesting one. There's a lot of potential here!

 

[Glubbfubb]

I think this could potentially be quite interesting. One idea that springs to mind is that they might be animated by some kind of "soul fire" - hence how they exist as a skeleton in the first place, and something that could give them a unique look - but this seems pretty interesting! Plus, staffs are... surprisingly underused in fighting games.

One idea that potentially springs to mind is - maybe they could seperate their staff into two smaller escrima sticks (akin to Eagle's in Street Fighter Alpha 3 Upper) for closer/weaker attacks and then fuse them back together into a staff (akin to uhhhh Duck King???) for longer-range/more powerful attacks? Ech, just a thought. Given it's made of bones, it could work pretty well!

That said, the idea of a fairly small and mobile character with surprising range is an interesting one. There's a lot of potential here!

Well not an actual skeleton, more like a monkey-like reptile that looks skeletal due to the plates on its body, I am designing him to be a spacer character, using his staff to bonk and stab opponents or pole vault for horizontal recovery.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Well not an actual skeleton, more like a monkey-like reptile that looks skeletal due to the plates on its body, I am designing him to be a spacer character, using his staff to bonk and stab opponents or pole vault for horizontal recovery.

Ohhhh - I see what you mean now! Sorry for the misunderstanding. Spacing sounds like it'd work well - though given their monkey-like look, I think making them pretty mobile would work well. The pole vault sounds like a great tool to that end - and maybe things like staff twirls could work for multi-hits too?

 

[Kirbeh]

2D Key frames sound smart, since that is essentially what im doing when making my test character.

Also for my next character, the concept is essentially a skeletal monkey that summons bones to use as a bow staff, so essentially skeleton sun wukong, would that work well as a "traditional" fighting game character.

Far from traditional actually, but still a very interesting concept. Is it one really long bone or made up of multiple bones like a Chinese 3 section staff?

 

[Glubbfubb]

Far from traditional actually, but still a very interesting concept. Is it one really long bone or made up of multiple bones like a Chinese 3 section staff?

Possibly, I haven't made a full concept yet

BTW what did you think of the response I said

 

[Kirbeh]

Possibly, I haven't made a full concept yet

BTW what did you think of the response I said

Which post? The monkey follow-up or the 2D vs 3D thing?

If you mean the latter, I don't think it's unreasonable. If that's what you're more comfortable working with and works better in the engine you're using, then it's probably for the best to stick to sprites.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Which post? The monkey follow-up or the 2D vs 3D thing?

If you mean the latter, I don't think it's unreasonable. If that's what you're more comfortable working with and works better in the engine you're using, then it's probably for the best to stick to sprites.

Thanks for your understanding, if you find an artstyle that works for you then follow through in that style

 

[Glubbfubb]

We now have out next fighter, Kowalski, the Albino Protochimp, and the best Hoo Haw user who has ever Hoo Hawed

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

I actually didn't have shoto in mind at all for the martial artist archetype. I was thinking more along the lines of a Gen from SF or maybe Jam from GG. Now that you mention it though some sort of shoto homage might be good to consider as well.

consider: they're a secret character they and look like this

We now have our next fighter, Kowalski, the Albino Protochimp, and the best Hoo Haw user who has ever Hoo Hawed

I honestly really like Kowalski's story, it's pretty interesting! That being said, what exactly does Spring Bone look like? Not to be disrespectful, but "A chargeable attack that launches Kowalski straight up, unlike most recovery moves this doesn't send him to freefall." could apply to almost any kind of attack - whether it be a teleport, a dash, or something else entirely.

 

[Glubbfubb]

consider: they're a secret character they and look like this

I honestly really like Kowalski's story, it's pretty interesting! That being said, what exactly does Spring Bone look like? Not to be disrespectful, but "A chargeable attack that launches Kowalski straight up, unlike most recovery moves this doesn't send him to freefall." could apply to almost any kind of attack - whether it be a teleport, a dash, or something else entirely.

Imagine sling-shotting yourself off the edge of a branch, but the branch is a bone

 

[Kirbeh]

I do have a suggestion for Ahab I've been thinking about for a bit. What if we took a bit more inspiration from Dedede for the aerial bruiser archetype?

We could take advantage of the flying whale angle of things and give him an inhale style move. Just like Dedede's, he can hold opponents in his mouth briefly or spit them back out by pressing the attack button. However, if you press the special button, he'll spew them upward from out of his blowhole to set up for juggles. Unlike the Smash versions of inhale, you can't continuously hold the button to keep the move going,

So, if an opponent is close, they get swallowed by the whale. If there's no opponent in front of Ahab though, he'll just swallow air and puff up, making his jumps floatier and slowing his fall speed. Pressing attack while puffed up will have him blow the air out which can be used to push projectiles back towards opponents or push back opponents themselves if they're close enough. Pressing special however will have Ahab spew the air back out as a small tempest.

Nimbus Buster would still behave as it normally does, but passing through a tempest on the ground would increase the moves' speed, power and distance traveled while adding a corkscrewing wind effect to emphasize its power. The air version would have its trajectory changed to rise diagonally and have Ahab himself also corkscrew through the air.

Alongside this, some rearranging of the move names.

The new neutral is Tempest Vaccuum for the inhale and Tempest Gale for the creation of the on-stage tempest winds.
Side special is Tempest Buster for the normal version and Tempest Corkscrew for the enhanced version.
The use of nimbus is repurposed for an enhanced version of Up Special, Shining Nimbus. The base version, Rising Shine, retains its ability to destroy projectiles, while Shining Nimbus gains a height, speed and power boost when passing through a tempest and now reflects projectiles instead of neutralizing them.

The idea of making him puff up is to sell the idea of a flying, wind powered, whale more and to gain even more distance off of moving through any tempest winds set up on the stage.

Also, suggestion to change Down Special's name to Cetacean Cyclone.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I do have a suggestion for Ahab I've been thinking about for a bit. What if we took a bit more inspiration from Dedede for the aerial bruiser archetype?

We could take advantage of the flying whale angle of things and give him an inhale style move. Just like Dedede's, he can hold opponents in his mouth briefly or spit them back out by pressing the attack button. However, if you press the special button, he'll spew them upward from out of his blowhole to set up for juggles. Unlike the Smash versions of inhale, you can't continuously hold the button to keep the move going,

So, if an opponent is close, they get swallowed by the whale. If there's no opponent in front of Ahab though, he'll just swallow air and puff up, making his jumps floatier and slowing his fall speed. Pressing attack while puffed up will have him blow the air out which can be used to push projectiles back towards opponents or push back opponents themselves if they're close enough. Pressing special however will have Ahab spew the air back out as a small tempest.

Nimbus Buster would still behave as it normally does, but passing through a tempest on the ground would increase the moves' speed, power and distance traveled while adding a corkscrewing wind effect to emphasize its power. The air version would have its trajectory changed to rise diagonally and have Ahab himself also corkscrew through the air.

Alongside this, some rearranging of the move names.

The new neutral is Tempest Vaccuum for the inhale and Tempest Gale for the creation of the on-stage tempest winds.
Side special is Tempest Buster for the normal version and Tempest Corkscrew for the enhanced version.
The use of nimbus is repurposed for an enhanced version of Up Special, Shining Nimbus. The base version, Rising Shine, retains its ability to destroy projectiles, while Shining Nimbus gains a height, speed and power boost when passing through a tempest and now reflects projectiles instead of neutralizing them.

The idea of making him puff up is to sell the idea of a flying, wind powered, whale more and to gain even more distance off of moving through any tempest winds set up on the stage.

Also, suggestion to change Down Special's name to Cetacean Cyclone.

I like this idea, though I don't know how well the inhale move mixes with his boxer aesthetic, however I'll think on it, thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Kirbeh]

I like this idea, though I don't know how well the inhale move mixes with his boxer aesthetic, however I'll think on it, thanks for the suggestion.

It's for the whale part of the character really, not so much the boxer basis. I feel like making him a big alien whale with wind powers and then limiting his moves to punches would be kind of a waste. Plus, the focus on aerial mobility, wind powers, a double lariat inspired down special and bellyflops on a few attacks already deviate from a traditional boxer significantly.

 

[Glubbfubb]

It's for the whale part of the character really, not so much the boxer basis. I feel like making him a big alien whale with wind powers and then limiting his moves to punches would be kind of a waste. Plus, the focus on aerial mobility, wind powers, a double lariat inspired down special and bellyflops on a few attacks already deviate from a traditional boxer significantly.

Good point, ill likely make these changes to his moveset.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I do have a suggestion for Ahab I've been thinking about for a bit. What if we took a bit more inspiration from Dedede for the aerial bruiser archetype?

We could take advantage of the flying whale angle of things and give him an inhale style move. Just like Dedede's, he can hold opponents in his mouth briefly or spit them back out by pressing the attack button. However, if you press the special button, he'll spew them upward from out of his blowhole to set up for juggles. Unlike the Smash versions of inhale, you can't continuously hold the button to keep the move going,

So, if an opponent is close, they get swallowed by the whale. If there's no opponent in front of Ahab though, he'll just swallow air and puff up, making his jumps floatier and slowing his fall speed. Pressing attack while puffed up will have him blow the air out which can be used to push projectiles back towards opponents or push back opponents themselves if they're close enough. Pressing special however will have Ahab spew the air back out as a small tempest.

Nimbus Buster would still behave as it normally does, but passing through a tempest on the ground would increase the moves' speed, power and distance traveled while adding a corkscrewing wind effect to emphasize its power. The air version would have its trajectory changed to rise diagonally and have Ahab himself also corkscrew through the air.

Alongside this, some rearranging of the move names.

The new neutral is Tempest Vaccuum for the inhale and Tempest Gale for the creation of the on-stage tempest winds.
Side special is Tempest Buster for the normal version and Tempest Corkscrew for the enhanced version.
The use of nimbus is repurposed for an enhanced version of Up Special, Shining Nimbus. The base version, Rising Shine, retains its ability to destroy projectiles, while Shining Nimbus gains a height, speed and power boost when passing through a tempest and now reflects projectiles instead of neutralizing them.

The idea of making him puff up is to sell the idea of a flying, wind powered, whale more and to gain even more distance off of moving through any tempest winds set up on the stage.

Also, suggestion to change Down Special's name to Cetacean Cyclone.

I implemented some of your ideas for moveset changes, however I didn't chance the names since I want each special to have a single name.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I decided that Aremi's current up special didn't really fit her, so instead I decided to make it more fitting.

Aremi's new up special is Headsplitter, where Aremi chucks her own head and lobs it as a projectile. Unlike the pumpkin bombs she tosses, this pumpkin doesn't explode; rather, it grows a new body for Aremi as the old body withers away. So essentially you lob a projectile and you warp to where it lands, sorta like an Ender Pearl. I feel like this up special gives more personality to Aremi, don't you agree. This head also reacts to the fires she creates, as when she lobs herself into a fire, she gains a temporary speed boost. Does the move as a whole sound good? Since she is already quite floaty and has a tether grab, I feel a more unorthodox recovery is okay.

 

[Kirbeh]

I decided that Aremi's current up special didn't really fit her, so instead I decided to make it more fitting.

Aremi's new up special is Headsplitter, where Aremi chucks her own head and lobs it as a projectile. Unlike the pumpkin bombs she tosses, this pumpkin doesn't explode; rather, it grows a new body for Aremi as the old body withers away. So essentially you lob a projectile and you warp to where it lands, sorta like an Ender Pearl. I feel like this up special gives more personality to Aremi, don't you agree. This head also reacts to the fires she creates, as when she lobs herself into a fire, she gains a temporary speed boost. Does the move as a whole sound good? Since she is already quite floaty and has a tether grab, I feel a more unorthodox recovery is okay.

Egg Toss but actually useful for recovery? Sounds good. And yes, this gives her even more personality. I will add though, perhaps the abandoned body itself can become a projectile as it falls? Or rather than simply withering it can burst into her purple flames to make it safer at close range and maybe even serve as a potential out of shield option?

I came up with an alternate take on the monkey as well if you're willing to take a look at it. Bear in mind it's a complete departure from your concept as opposed to a move suggestion like with Ahab.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Egg Toss but actually useful for recovery? Sounds good. And yes, this gives her even more personality. I will add though, perhaps the abandoned body itself can become a projectile as it falls? Or rather than simply withering it can burst into her purple flames to make it safer at close range and maybe even serve as a potential out of shield option?

I came up with an alternate take on the monkey as well if you're willing to take a look at it. Bear in mind it's a complete departure from your concept as opposed to a move suggestion like with Ahab.

As long as its a skeleton monkey, uses a staff, and is a spacer type character, go ahead.

 

[Kirbeh]

As long as its a skeleton monkey, uses a staff, and is a spacer type character, go ahead.

It only checks the first box, so that pretty much nips it in the bud.

 

[Glubbfubb]

It only checks the first box, so that pretty much nips it in the bud.

Oh, well tell me anyways if your interested, I'm still curious.

 

[Kirbeh]

Oh, well tell me anyways if your interested, I'm still curious.

My concept was kind of laser focused on the skeleton monkey part so it's a more feral/beast-like alien. It'd still be an intelligent creature but would be the first full on animal/monster character on the roster. Personality and story wise it'd also be a big shift as rather than having the noble goal of saving his brethren, it would be a dangerous specimen that was on the loose, acting only in its own interest and even having a bit of a malicious streak.

This would be reflected in the design as well, dropping the reptilian traits to focus on the monkey aspects, but gaining monstrous features. Spikes made of bone, popping out from its back along the spinal column. A second mouth in its chest cavity with fangs jutting out like the bones of a ribcage. Large claws for slashing and tearing, etc. (I'll have to get around to drawing to properly illustrate what I have in mind.)

Move set wise, the only special move it really has in common is Down Special. It would spit out a bone "seed" from its second mouth, acting sort of like a bamboo shoot, quickly growing into a pole made of bone. Much like the cage Vega can climb in Street Fighter, only he can make use of it, being able to perch at the very top to use as a platform or hang from the top to weigh it down, only to jump off and whack nearby opponents as the bone returns to its normal position. Not only that but while off stage a well-aimed bone seed could hit the side of the stage and grow out of it to serve as a springboard. For it's normals it'd be like a more brutal mix of DK, Diddy and a little Ridley sprinkled in.

The staff/spacer side of things would actually be covered by a separate character; an officer/hunter tasked with investigating, tracking and hopefully catching the loose specimen. Their staff would be metal and end in a "spear" used to shock and subdue. Basically, a taser combined with a staff. Less concrete details on who they are exactly, though I was considering making this one female and basing their species off of either cats/felines or some sort of wild canine (fox, wolf, jackal, etc.) as an homage to the spacies (Star Fox characters). Given their profession (and partial inspiration), I thought of potentially giving them some sort of laser weapon and reflector equivalent as well. Not exactly like the Star Fox crew mind you, but similar. Like a weak wrist mounted laser that falls somewhere between Fox/Falco's blaster. Or for the reflector, it faces forward rather than covering the body and stays out where it's summoned acting like a wall/barrier.

 

[Glubbfubb]

My concept was kind of laser focused on the skeleton monkey part so it's a more feral/beast-like alien. It'd still be an intelligent creature but would be the first full on animal/monster character on the roster. Personality and story wise it'd also be a big shift as rather than having the noble goal of saving his brethren, it would be a dangerous specimen that was on the loose, acting only in its own interest and even having a bit of a malicious streak.

This would be reflected in the design as well, dropping the reptilian traits to focus on the monkey aspects, but gaining monstrous features. Spikes made of bone, popping out from its back along the spinal column. A second mouth in its chest cavity with fangs jutting out like the bones of a ribcage. Large claws for slashing and tearing, etc. (I'll have to get around to drawing to properly illustrate what I have in mind.)

Move set wise, the only special move it really has in common is Down Special. It would spit out a bone "seed" from its second mouth, acting sort of like a bamboo shoot, quickly growing into a pole made of bone. Much like the cage Vega can climb in Street Fighter, only he can make use of it, being able to perch at the very top to use as a platform or hang from the top to weigh it down, only to jump off and whack nearby opponents as the bone returns to its normal position. Not only that but while off stage a well-aimed bone seed could hit the side of the stage and grow out of it to serve as a springboard. For it's normals it'd be like a more brutal mix of DK, Diddy and a little Ridley sprinkled in.

The staff/spacer side of things would actually be covered by a separate character; an officer/hunter tasked with investigating, tracking and hopefully catching the loose specimen. Their staff would be metal and end in a "spear" used to shock and subdue. Basically, a taser combined with a staff. Less concrete details on who they are exactly, though I was considering making this one female and basing their species off of either cats/felines or some sort of wild canine (fox, wolf, jackal, etc.) as an homage to the spacies (Star Fox characters). Given their profession (and partial inspiration), I thought of potentially giving them some sort of laser weapon and reflector equivalent as well. Not exactly like the Star Fox crew mind you, but similar. Like a weak wrist mounted laser that falls somewhere between Fox/Falco's blaster. Or for the reflector, it faces forward rather than covering the body and stays out where it's summoned acting like a wall/barrier.

Eh space police is a bit TOO close to Star Fox, I am trying to find a character who can use a Reflector-like attack, so I'll think of something. If you have other ideas please do tell.

 

[Kirbeh]

Eh space police is a bit TOO close to Star Fox, I am trying to find a character who can use a Reflector-like attack, so I'll think of something. If you have other ideas please do tell.

You could always drop the space police and just go with a hired gun/bounty hunter angle. Maybe even someone from a colony where the monkey lands and wreaks havoc. They could be someone that tries to take things into their own hands. (Or alter the species).

As for another character to specifically have a reflector in their kit, I feel like it'd be a natural fit for one of the robots. If not that then perhaps a non-carbon-based alien i.e. a crystal-based species of some kind. Otherwise, a reflector move just makes more sense as a piece of tech, especially given the setting.

Any thoughts on the more monstrous monkey btw?

 

[Glubbfubb]

You could always drop the space police and just go with a hired gun/bounty hunter angle. Maybe even someone from a colony where the monkey lands and wreaks havoc. They could be someone that tries to take things into their own hands.

As for another character to specifically have a reflector in their kit, I feel like it'd be a natural fit for one of the robots. If not that then perhaps a non-carbon-based alien i.e. a crystal-based species of some kind. Otherwise, a reflector move just makes more sense as a piece of tech, especially given the setting.

Any thoughts on the more monstrous monkey btw?

Maybe Kowalski hostile due to being abused by the poachers, and he is taking that hostility out on said poachers, so we can keep the hostile angle but shift it in a way that we still root for Kowalski.

I might give the reflector to EPSILON, my other robot character, and LAMBDA's twin. They are designed more as defensive zoners, using their unique gravity bubbles to make their foes heavy and slower, making the combo food, so having a reflector-like move may help in their defensive utility.

Now I do want to roster to include one more heavyweight, since we have a male heavyweight and a genderless heavyweight. a female heavyweight would work quite well to balance out the cast. With Ahab being a fast-in-the-air bruiser and LAMBDA an archetypical grappler, I wonder what role this female heavyweight can bring. Any ideas for such a character?

 

[Kirbeh]

Maybe Kowalski hostile due to being abused by the poachers, and he is taking that hostility out on said poachers, so we can keep the hostile angle but shift it in a way that we still root for Kowalski.

I might give the reflector to EPSILON, my other robot character, and LAMBDA's twin. They are designed more as defensive zoners, using their unique gravity bubbles to make their foes heavy and slower, making the combo food, so having a reflector-like move may help in their defensive utility.

Now I do want to roster to include one more heavyweight, since we have a male heavyweight and a genderless heavyweight. a female heavyweight would work quite well to balance out the cast. With Ahab being a fast-in-the-air bruiser and LAMBDA an archetypical grappler, I wonder what role this female heavyweight can bring. Any ideas for such a character?

Nah, I'd say just stick to your original idea for this one. Wouldn't make sense for him to have more a hostile/brutal move set if he's still intended to be a character we're rooting for, plus any hostility is directed at the poachers, not the other unrelated fighters.

A third heavyweight huh? With the grappler and bruiser already covered, I'm honestly not sure outside of trying another hybrid. Maybe another zoner with lots of firepower to compensate for poor mobility?

 

[Glubbfubb]

Dev Update, jumping now works properly, but now landing is a buggy now, it never ends