Sigma Busters: Official Discussion Thread

[KneeOfJustice99]

Okay a technical question, does anyone know the exact frame data of Marth's Counter move, preferably the Smash Melee or Ultimate incarnations, I want to use the frame data as a point of reference when designing Zazz's counter.

Also Zazz may be the first fighter designed once I get around to doing full on fighters, still need to work on the framework for fighters and I'm practicing by recreating Fox's moveset. I picture that while Zazz's moveset isn't "simple" to perform it is simple to program, with the only major hurdle being how to program the freeze affect of his counter.

According to MeleeFrameData.com, Melee Marth's counter has a 5 frame startup, is active between frames 5 and 29, and lasts for a total of 59 frames (meaning there's 30 inactive endlag frames after use.)

Also, UltimateFrameData.com says that Ultimate Marth's counter has a 6 frame startup, is active between frames 6 and 27, and lasts for a total of 64 frames (meaning there's 37 inactive endlag frames after use.) Numerically, I guess it's a nerf, but then Ultimate is a little slower than Melee, so make of it what you will.

Side note: in Melee, Counter deals a flat 7% in damage no matter what, but in Ultimate, it deals a 1.2x multiplier of the attack that activated it (so an attack that would deal 10% would be Countered at 12%.)

Loving Zazz's and Mobius's writeups though! And I think designing Zazz early is probably a good call - he's less "gimmicky" than the rest of the cast, so basing other characters around him as a frame of reference in some way makes a lot of sense.

Finished conceptualizing Zazz's kit, I decided to make him an easy-to-pick-up and-play character who, aside from his freezing abilities, offers a simple but satisfying character who is neither too dominating nor to weak. I even have Hypermax attacks where he implements Marth's or Lucina's sword mechanics depending on which hypermax you chose.

I think this makes a lot of sense - and I really like how you're handling his Overmaxes! Though, I'm curious - do the sweet spots apply to Zazz's entire moveset when picking a particular Overmax (loosely akin to how you'd get gameplay differences by picking a different ISM in Alpha 3 or a different Groove in CVS), or is it just for those specific Overmax attacks? (I personally think it could be interesting either way - though I get that there might be balance issues by giving him fundamentally different properties between them.)

 

[Glubbfubb]

According to MeleeFrameData.com, Melee Marth's counter has a 5 frame startup, is active between frames 5 and 29, and lasts for a total of 59 frames (meaning there's 30 inactive endlag frames after use.)

Also, UltimateFrameData.com says that Ultimate Marth's counter has a 6 frame startup, is active between frames 6 and 27, and lasts for a total of 64 frames (meaning there's 37 inactive endlag frames after use.) Numerically, I guess it's a nerf, but then Ultimate is a little slower than Melee, so make of it what you will.

Loving Zazz's and Mobius's writeups though! And I think designing Zazz early is probably a good call - he's less "gimmicky" than the rest of the cast, so basing other characters around him as a frame of reference in some way makes a lot of sense.


I think this makes a lot of sense - and I really like how you're handling his Overmaxes! Though, I'm curious - do the sweet spots apply to Zazz's entire moveset when picking a particular Overmax (loosely akin to how you'd get gameplay differences by picking a different ISM in Alpha 3 or a different Groove in CVS), or is it just for those specific Overmax attacks? (I personally think it could be interesting either way - though I get that there might be balance issues by giving him fundamentally different properties between them.)

His swords does equal damage all around, but the tip deals more knockback, so there is a sweet spot. Since he is the sole traditional swordy of the cast I feel mixing Lucina's and Marth's sword properties is a good call. Also I don't know if this is a good idea but when Zazz uses his counter in the air I think it would be cool for him to pause in the air when using it, I don't know I feel like that can expand some tech of him like delaying his fall, maybe I can program counter's animation to end automatically when he hits the ground giving him some air-cancelling properties, that way he has some unique tech compared to the rest of the cast. When I am making Wynnie I am designing her counter to be more powerful in exchange for it being more laggy if it fails, Wynnie as a whole plays more risky since her axe makes it some attacking too close can cause her to hit with a sourspot dealing minimum damage and knock back, but she has best power to her moves. Plus her boomerange axe can give her a small zoning niche when combined with her fast run speed and normal weight.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Wynnie came out more distinct from Zazz than I thought, I originally was going to make her a slower but more powerful semi-clone of Zazz but now she evolved into a weirdly fun combo of a charge character and zoner. Really, the only thing shared between the two is that their Hypermax attacks have the same inputs but otherwise they have completely different fighting styles. Tell me what you think of them?

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Wynnie came out more distinct from Zazz than I thought, I originally was going to make her a slower but more powerful semi-clone of Zazz but now she evolved into a weirdly fun combo of a charge character and zoner. Really, the only thing shared between the two is that their Hypermax attacks have the same inputs but otherwise they have completely different fighting styles. Tell me what you think of them?

I think she's turned out really cool! I love the axe mechanic that rewards footsies - it's pretty interesting to require the player to develop their skills in using Wynnie's unorthodox toolkit when her character is supposed to be the archetypical "brash rookie". It's a cool subversion, in my mind. I honestly think it's pretty neat that their Overmaxes share the same inputs too - it gives them a degree of additional connection, after all.

Out of curiosity - does Wynnie's Flare Arch work similarly to Pyra's Blazing End in that she's able to move around while it's active? I bring this up because, what with a lot of her attacks using the axe - it might be worth Wynnie being able to move (thus altering the returning arc of the axe and adding some emergent complexity to the attack) but being unable to attack until the axe returns to her. Seems like it could be fun!

 

[Glubbfubb]

I think she's turned out really cool! I love the axe mechanic that rewards footsies - it's pretty interesting to require the player to develop their skills in using Wynnie's unorthodox toolkit when her character is supposed to be the archetypical "brash rookie". It's a cool subversion, in my mind. I honestly think it's pretty neat that their Overmaxes share the same inputs too - it gives them a degree of additional connection, after all.

Out of curiosity - does Wynnie's Flare Arch work similarly to Pyra's Blazing End in that she's able to move around while it's active? I bring this up because, what with a lot of her attacks using the axe - it might be worth Wynnie being able to move (thus altering the returning arc of the axe and adding some emergent complexity to the attack) but being unable to attack until the axe returns to her. Seems like it could be fun!

Depending on how hard it is to program I may implement being able to move while the axe is out.

Also here is my current weight ranking for each character, going from heaviest to lightest

Mobius
LAMBDA
Wynnie
Zazz/Aremi (I am giving them the same weight, Aremi just falls faster)
EPSILON
Weevle

In terms of ground speed, going from slowest to fastest

LAMBDA
Mobius
Wynnie
Zazz
EPSILON
Aremi
Weevle

Now onto the next fighter, the concept I have is so far is you know those mutated dogs from John Carpenter's the Thing, imagine one of those dogs as a summoner type character.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Looking back, I feel sort of unsatisfied with Aremi's moveset, I feel like I sorta made her too much as a protagonist while Zazz and Wynnie came out more naturally and feel more like protagonists to me, so I might redesign Aremi from the ground up to be more interesting, maybe go farther into the witch aesthetic to maybe add some arcane pumpkin bombs and maybe shift her to a plant person. I can keep the Pyronite abilities though so she can be sorta a hybrid of Hobgoblin, Swampfire, and Jack Skeleton; how does that sound?

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Looking back, I feel sort of unsatisfied with Aremi's moveset, I feel like I sorta made her too much as a protagonist while Zazz and Wynnie came out more naturally and feel more like protagonists to me, so I might redesign Aremi from the ground up to be more interesting, maybe go farther into the witch aesthetic to maybe add some arcane pumpkin bombs and maybe shift her to a plant person. I can keep the Pyronite abilities though so she can be sorta a hybrid of Hobgoblin, Swampfire, and Jack Skeleton; how does that sound?

I think that might be a good call - but one thing that might be worth considering is whether Aremi as the central protagonist is absolutely necessary, if you feel Zazz & Wynnie came about more naturally. I point to Street Fighter III as a good example of this - they were originally planning Alex as the main "face of the New Generation", but that never really came to pass due to the sheer popularity of Ryu and Ken! (Not that I think Aremi would be a bad protagonist - she does have a lot of potential - it's just something maybe worth considering.)

That said, I love the idea of shifting her to a witchy plant person with Pyronite-based skills, and Swampfire in particular springs to mind as an interesting source of inspiration. I'd probably change a couple of elements of Aremi's feel, though - most prominently giving her a more earthy colour palette, maybe with her costume mostly consisting of browns and greens as opposed to black and purple? It's also worth considering that "plants" are pretty rare in fighting games - so you could probably have a couple of interesting concepts, whether it be seeds she can throw that sprout up after a certain amount of time, or even having Dhalsim/Necro-esque stretches by extending her arms like vines!

Though... I will say one completely unrelated thing. It might just be nitpicking on my part - but I feel like Zazz's name implies more of an electrical feel, and feels a little... kitsch? It doesn't really seem to fit with the other names in the cast - like Aremi, Wynnie, Mobius and so forth. (I guess Weevle is kinda similar, but that might be the Metroid Prime: Hunters bias talking in me that makes me want to suggest "Weavel" or something.) Just a thought, though!

 

[Glubbfubb]

I think that might be a good call - but one thing that might be worth considering is whether Aremi as the central protagonist is absolutely necessary, if you feel Zazz & Wynnie came about more naturally. I point to Street Fighter III as a good example of this - they were originally planning Alex as the main "face of the New Generation", but that never really came to pass due to the sheer popularity of Ryu and Ken! (Not that I think Aremi would be a bad protagonist - she does have a lot of potential - it's just something maybe worth considering.)

That said, I love the idea of shifting her to a witchy plant person with Pyronite-based skills, and Swampfire in particular springs to mind as an interesting source of inspiration. I'd probably change a couple of elements of Aremi's feel, though - most prominently giving her a more earthy colour palette, maybe with her costume mostly consisting of browns and greens as opposed to black and purple? It's also worth considering that "plants" are pretty rare in fighting games - so you could probably have a couple of interesting concepts, whether it be seeds she can throw that sprout up after a certain amount of time, or even having Dhalsim/Necro-esque stretches by extending her arms like vines!

Though... I will say one completely unrelated thing. It might just be nitpicking on my part - but I feel like Zazz's name implies more of an electrical feel, and feels a little... kitsch? It doesn't really seem to fit with the other names in the cast - like Aremi, Wynnie, Mobius and so forth. (I guess Weevle is kinda similar, but that might be the Metroid Prime: Hunters bias talking in me that makes me want to suggest "Weavel" or something.) Just a thought, though!

Might change Zazz's name, what about Levi, since Wynnie is a play on Wyvern and Levi can be a play off Leviathan.

Aremi change into a plant would be a good choice, for one she will likely be one of the few characters with a tether grab, which is always good, maybe the fire she summons could be spectral flames that give harmful status conditions. Her down special could have her change the color of her fire to determine the status conditions, red would increase launchability, purple would weaken physical attacks, blue could degrade shields faster, green would poison, and black would lower traction. If she uses too much of the same fire she will run out of fuel and all of her fire attacks will weaken.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Might change Zazz's name, what about Levi, since Wynnie is a play on Wyvern and Levi can be a play off Leviathan.

Aremi change into a plant would be a good choice, for one she will likely be one of the few characters with a tether grab, which is always good, maybe the fire she summons could be spectral flames that give harmful status conditions. Her down special could have her change the color of her fire to determine the status conditions, red would increase launchability, purple would weaken physical attacks, blue could degrade shields faster, green would poison, and black would lower traction. If she uses too much of the same fire she will run out of fuel and all of her fire attacks will weaken.

Levi is a great name! And come to think of it, I love how they're both a play on different "dragon" names. Gives them that element of duality even more!

I think the call on giving Aremi a tether grab could be cool, but if you wanted her as your main protag, I don't think giving her (basically) a stance-change mechanic would be the best call. While I don't think the "main character" has to be the simplest, they should still at least be approachable... so maybe that mechanic could work better on another character?

Also, while I get that giving her a ****ton of unique debuffs could be cool, I do think it'd be a bit of a headache. Even beyond accessibility concerns for colour-blind players, having to memorise five different types of fire feels like it's a little overcomplicated - and some seem (at a glance) way more effective than others, like, I don't really see there being much need for a dedicated option to reduce an opponent's traction? It's a cool concept, but it'd need a lot more workshopping - and maybe a character dedicated to the idea of a stance-switch debuffing system and completely balanced around that (akin to, say, Shulk.)

 

[Glubbfubb]

Levi is a great name! And come to think of it, I love how they're both a play on different "dragon" names. Gives them that element of duality even more!

I think the call on giving Aremi a tether grab could be cool, but if you wanted her as your main protag, I don't think giving her (basically) a stance-change mechanic would be the best call. While I don't think the "main character" has to be the simplest, they should still at least be approachable... so maybe that mechanic could work better on another character?

Also, while I get that giving her a ****ton of unique debuffs could be cool, I do think it'd be a bit of a headache. Even beyond accessibility concerns for colour-blind players, having to memorise five different types of fire feels like it's a little overcomplicated - and some seem (at a glance) way more effective than others, like, I don't really see there being much need for a dedicated option to reduce an opponent's traction? It's a cool concept, but it'd need a lot more workshopping - and maybe a character dedicated to the idea of a stance-switch debuffing system and completely balanced around that (akin to, say, Shulk.)

Yeah, I might continue to think about the rework, may shift Wynnie and Levi to the protag route since they both feel the most natural at the moment, I don't know its an esemble cast.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Dev Update, got the bugs with walking patched out, still need to work on jumping, also, Aremi rework was made, now she plays sort of like a set-play character with elements of Fox's moveset as well.

 

[Glubbfubb]

So far, what archtypes do you think I am lacking in the roster, I don't know if I am ready for a summoner or puppet fighter, that seems a bit too complex for a base roster.

 

[Kirbeh]

So far, what archtypes do you think I am lacking in the roster, I don't know if I am ready for a summoner or puppet fighter, that seems a bit too complex for a base roster.

A dedicated zoner I guess? Maybe a non-grappler bruiser? A ninja or kung fu/karate/other martial artist character if you want to go into some common FG tropes. Given the ongoing changes to movesets, I would say it might be a good idea to include the current/intended archetype in the character profiles you have on the main post.

I'll also again suggest adding physical descriptions as you add characters to the main post. The move descriptors are serviceable for explaining how the moves work, but without knowing what the characters look like, it's hard to try to picture them in motion. Especially in a roster full of aliens and AI in robot bodies, their unique physiology is going to inform their movement and fighting style. Plus it makes it easier for anyone visiting the thread to provide feedback.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Hey,

A dedicated zoner I guess? Maybe a non-grappler bruiser? A ninja or kung fu/karate/other martial artist character if you want to go into some common FG tropes. Given the ongoing changes to movesets, I would say it might be a good idea to include the current/intended archetype in the character profiles you have on the main post.

I'll also again suggest adding physical descriptions as you add characters to the main post. The move descriptors are serviceable for explaining how the moves work, but without knowing what the characters look like, it's hard to try to picture them in motion. Especially in a roster full of aliens and AI in robot bodies, their unique physiology is going to inform their movement and fighting style. Plus it makes it easier for anyone visiting the thread to provide feedback.

Updated the current roster to include those details, giving a vague summery of their appearance.

 

[Kirbeh]

Hey,

Updated the current roster to include those details, giving a vague summery of their appearance.

If you don't mind me asking, do you have any particular look/art style you're aiming for? Does it lean on the cartoony or anime side? More realistic? Are the characters intended to be more on the humanoid side, more animal/monstrous or right in-between? (Or it varies by character?)

So, like with Aremi for example, you mention she has the face of a jack-o-lantern, but is it just the face or is her head shaped like a pumpkin too? Does she have hair or some equivalent? You also mentioned a plague doctor inspiration, but wouldn't the mask be covering her face and preventing the player from ever seeing the actual jack-o-lantern inspired design? Or was that dropped for the more witch/ghostly aesthetic?

You also mention characters like Jack Skellington and Swampfire, though I assume this was more in reference to abilities did they inspire any of her physical traits? Is she tall and skinny like Jack for example?

And sorry for all the questions btw. I know you're currently focused on working on the actual gameplay and making moveset concepts, but I wanted to try my hand at drawing some of the characters if you're okay with that. I'm no professional mind you, but I at least wanted to try.

 

[Glubbfubb]

If you don't mind me asking, do you have any particular look/art style you're aiming for? Does it lean on the cartoony or anime side? More realistic? Are the characters intended to be more on the humanoid side, more animal/monstrous or right in-between? (Or it varies by character?)

So, like with Aremi for example, you mention she has the face of a jack-o-lantern, but is it just the face or is her head shaped like a pumpkin too? Does she have hair or some equivalent? You also mentioned a plague doctor inspiration, but wouldn't the mask be covering her face and preventing the player from ever seeing the actual jack-o-lantern inspired design? Or was that dropped for the more witch/ghostly aesthetic?

You also mention characters like Jack Skellington and Swampfire, though I assume this was more in reference to abilities did they inspire any of her physical traits? Is she tall and skinny like Jack for example?

And sorry for all the questions btw. I know you're currently focused on working on the actual gameplay and making moveset concepts, but I wanted to try my hand at drawing some of the characters if you're okay with that. I'm no professional mind you, but I at least wanted to try.

A bunch of awnsers:
To be honest, I don't know what art style I am going for currently, I just want to be distinct from Rival of Aether's aesthetic and try to be distinct. Coloring-wise, I want to aim for a Street Fighter Alpha aesthetic: bright but varied colors with a hint of saturation. As long as the style is distinct from Aether and doesn't utilize art tropes I hate like gratuitous fanservice I am really okay with anything as long as it meets my previous preferences.

For Aremi, I mainly compared her to swampfire for her abilities, not her design, and for Jack Skeleton, I mainly wanted her to share the same general facial structure, not body type. I picture her to be comparable in height to Ness and Lucas, being a kid after all, and maybe the plague doctor mask can be the inspiration for the hoodie of her cloak/jacket, she has a creepy angle but like a goofy halloweeny angle, like Jack Skeleton. Does these answers make sense?

 

[Kirbeh]

A bunch of awnsers:
To be honest, I don't know what art style I am going for currently, I just want to be distinct from Rival of Aether's aesthetic and try to be distinct. Coloring-wise, I want to aim for a Street Fighter Alpha aesthetic: bright but varied colors with a hint of saturation. As long as the style is distinct from Aether

Ooh, Alpha sounds like a good baseline for colors, though I am biased since those were my first Street Fighter games. As for being distinct from Rivals, I think that should be easy enough to manage given most of your characters so far are aliens/robots.

I think comparisons for the ones inspired by animals like Ahab and the fire/ice duo are likely inevitable because comparing is just what people do, but I think there's plenty you could do to make them fairly distinct. The majority of the Rivals cast leans harder into the animal side even if some have more humanoid shapes like Zetterburn/Forsburn. They have little to no clothing (Clairen being the exception) whereas your cast seems to have complete outfits like the FE inspiration on Levi/Wynnie. And again, it also depends on how hard you want certain characters to lean in for their more animal-like traits.

Another point to consider is that all the Rivals characters are actually roughly similar in size, with all the designs being rather compact in service of the way the sprites were handled for the first game. More varied sizes can help your cast stand apart from theirs and of course helps your own characters feel more distinct from each other. You seem to already have this covered as well with cases like the very short Aremi or a big bruiser like Ahab.

and doesn't utilize art tropes I hate like gratuitous fanservice

That's good to know right off the bat. Not that I would've drawn any of your characters in such a way to begin with (I know most people aren't comfortable with that sort of thing- plus it's clearly not what you're going for), but with my own pet project essentially being a Skullgirls/Darkstalkers equivalent, that at least tells me to avoid any inspiration from those games or characters of more risqué design like R. Mika or Mai, Angel, etc. from KoF.

For Aremi, I mainly compared her to swampfire for her abilities, not her design, and for Jack Skeleton, I mainly wanted her to share the same general facial structure, not body type. I picture her to be comparable in height to Ness and Lucas, being a kid after all, and maybe the plague doctor mask can be the inspiration for the hoodie of her cloak/jacket, she has a creepy angle but like a goofy halloweeny angle, like Jack Skeleton. Does these answers make sense?

I know it's way further down the list of priorities, but I think the plague doctor version of the design could serve as an alt costume that way the main design can keep the more general Halloween inspired focus without becoming too busy/cluttered.

So my basic understanding of the cast so far (visual) design wise;

Aremi - Short stature like the Mother boys, round but not pumpkin shaped head with a jack-o-lantern lantern face and a witchy/scarecrow inspired look.

Ahab - Big boy boxer with a sperm whale's head. Is he just big and built like Balrog or is he huge like Potemkin from Guilty Gear for example?

Levi/Wynnie - Humanoid FE swordie body/outfit, but with reptilian heads/tails,

Weevle - Okay, so I'm a little confused on this one. I'm assuming she's humanoid with vampire inspired traits like fangs (on a presumably human face/mouth) and bat like wings, but she's got compound eyes like an insect? Does her overall design lean more on the insect side or traditional vampire side?

LAMBDA - Three eyed, black metal dragon. Are they standing upright or a quadruped? Long body of an eastern inspired dragon I'm assuming?

 

[Glubbfubb]

Ooh, Alpha sounds like a good baseline for colors, though I am biased since those were my first Street Fighter games. As for being distinct from Rivals, I think that should be easy enough to manage given most of your characters so far are aliens/robots.

I think comparisons for the ones inspired by animals like Ahab and the fire/ice duo are likely inevitable because comparing is just what people do, but I think there's plenty you could do to make them fairly distinct. The majority of the Rivals cast leans harder into the animal side even if some have more humanoid shapes like Zetterburn/Forsburn. They have little to no clothing (Clairen being the exception) whereas your cast seems to have complete outfits like the FE inspiration on Levi/Wynnie. And again, it also depends on how hard you want certain characters to lean in for their more animal-like traits.

Another point to consider is that all the Rivals characters are actually roughly similar in size, with all the designs being rather compact in service of the way the sprites were handled for the first game. More varied sizes can help your cast stand apart from theirs and of course helps your own characters feel more distinct from each other. You seem to already have this covered as well with cases like the very short Aremi or a big bruiser like Ahab.


That's good to know right off the bat. Not that I would've drawn any of your characters in such a way to begin with (I know most people aren't comfortable with that sort of thing- plus it's clearly not what you're going for), but with my own pet project essentially being a Skullgirls/Darkstalkers equivalent, that at least tells me to avoid any inspiration from those games or characters of more risqué design like R. Mika or Mai, Angel, etc. from KoF.


I know it's way further down the list of priorities, but I think the plague doctor version of the design could serve as an alt costume that way the main design can keep the more general Halloween inspired focus without becoming too busy/cluttered.

So my basic understanding of the cast so far (visual) design wise;

Aremi - Short stature like the Mother boys, round but not pumpkin shaped head with a jack-o-lantern lantern face and a witchy/scarecrow inspired look.

Ahab - Big boy boxer with a sperm whale's head. Is he just big and built like Balrog or is he huge like Potemkin from Guilty Gear for example?

Levi/Wynnie - Humanoid FE swordie body/outfit, but with reptilian heads/tails,

Weevle - Okay, so I'm a little confused on this one. I'm assuming she's humanoid with vampire inspired traits like fangs (on a presumably human face/mouth) and bat like wings, but she's got compound eyes like an insect? Does her overall design lean more on the insect side or traditional vampire side?

LAMBDA - Three eyed, black metal dragon. Are they standing upright or a quadruped? Long body of an eastern inspired dragon I'm assuming?

If you want to make Potemkin comparisons, LAMBDA is more in line with Potemkin than Ahab due to both being big boi grapplers with a robotic design. LAMBDA is also more humanoid than quadruped, but my main concept is that they are the closest character you get to a playable Galleom from Smash Bros, being that they can tuck their bodies in to form vehicle like forms, which LAMBDA uses for their dash attack and up special. So LAMBDA's gait and posture is quite similiar to Galleom, but with the additions of draconic elements and some grappler moveset elements. Again, LAMBDA is a robot, not a biological creature. LAMBDA and EPSILON are also genderless, being robots after all, so their designs should be not too masculine or feminine.

Ahab, I would say from a design standpoint is a combo of Mike Tyson, Barlog, and Thumpback from Skylanders. He is an absolute unit, but he is quite muscular to show that he has an air of agility to him due to his gimmick of being fast in the air.

Weevle is odd, she takes inspiration from both insects and vampires since her species are blood-sucking insectoid beings. I designed her as also a conflicting concept since she is one of the "cute" characters but is associated with some rather non-cute creatures, or in laymans terms have her take the award for most adorable mosquito/tick of all time. Her body could be seen as a more stylized Geonosian from star wars, just with a vampire aesthetic and some inspiration from ticks and mosquitoes.

 

[Kirbeh]

If you want to make Potemkin comparisons, LAMBDA is more in line with Potemkin than Ahab due to both being big boi grapplers with a robotic design. LAMBDA is also more humanoid than quadruped, but my main concept is that they are the closest character you get to a playable Galleom from Smash Bros, being that they can tuck their bodies in to form vehicle like forms, which LAMBDA uses for their dash attack and up special. So LAMBDA's gait and posture is quite similiar to Galleom, but with the additions of draconic elements and some grappler moveset elements. Again, LAMBDA is a robot, not a biological creature. LAMBDA and EPSILON are also genderless, being robots after all, so their designs should be not too masculine or feminine.

Ahab, I would say from a design standpoint is a combo of Mike Tyson, Barlog, and Thumpback from Skylanders. He is an absolute unit, but he is quite muscular to show that he has an air of agility to him due to his gimmick of being fast in the air.

Weevle is odd, she takes inspiration from both insects and vampires since her species are blood-sucking insectoid beings. I designed her as also a conflicting concept since she is one of the "cute" characters but is associated with some rather non-cute creatures, or in laymans terms have her take the award for most adorable mosquito/tick of all time. Her body could be seen as a more stylized Geonosian from star wars, just with a vampire aesthetic and some inspiration from ticks and mosquitoes.

Forgive the crude doodle, but something like this body shape perhaps for Ahab? Plus, what I imagine for Aremi based on your description so far. Probably still very of base but that's what came to mind.

Spoiler

Also, prior to the descriptions you added I pictured something quite different for Weevle. I'd imagined that they had a sort of mask and/or helmet with goggles resembling compound eyes and the mouth of the mask resembling mandibles. She normally draws blood with her daggers, but when she actually goes in for a bite herself, the "mandibles" of the mask opens up so can she bite with her real mouth underneath, but it still leans into the insect theming.

Plus, now that you mention she's supposed to be cute, I think that sort of dynamic could work with a more serious looking/intimidating mask hiding a cute face underneath. What do you think? Does that stray too far?

 

[Glubbfubb]

Forgive the crude doodle, but something like this body shape perhaps for Ahab? Plus, what I imagine for Aremi based on your description so far. Probably still very of base but that's what came to mind.

Spoiler

View attachment 382823

Also, prior to the descriptions you added I pictured something quite different for Weevle. I'd imagined that they had a sort of mask and/or helmet with goggles resembling compound eyes and the mouth of the mask resembling mandibles. She normally draws blood with her daggers, but when she actually goes in for a bite herself, the "mandibles" of the mask opens up so can she bite with her real mouth underneath, but it still leans into the insect theming.

Plus, now that you mention she's supposed to be cute, I think that sort of dynamic could work with a more serious looking/intimidating mask hiding a cute face underneath. What do you think? Does that stray too far?

Some comments::
Aremi I think, would look better with a hoodie than a witch hat, making her design more "modern," so to speak.

I like the design of Ahab on the right's attire and head shape and the left design's physique.

I like the mask angle, reminds me of Trip from Sonic Superstars and I like her design in both forms so maybe focus on that.

Otherwise these sketches are excellent, if someone could convert these into sprites that would be even better.

 

[Kirbeh]

Some comments::
Aremi I think, would look better with a hoodie than a witch hat, making her design more "modern," so to speak.

I like the design of Ahab on the right's attire and head shape and the left design's physique.

I like the mask angle, reminds me of Trip from Sonic Superstars and I like her design in both forms so maybe focus on that.

Otherwise these sketches are excellent, if someone could convert these into sprites that would be even better.

So smaller head and bulkier body for Ahab then? I doodled the left Ahab after you brought up Thumpback since I wasn't sure what kind of head to body ratio you wanted to go for. I also forgot to ask earlier. Is he meant to have a tail like an actual whale or just the head?

As for Weevle, I had kind of a vaguely Kamen Rider esque idea but leaning even more into the bug motif for the mask. I'll try to workshop some doodles of her in a bit or maybe tomorrow if I fall asleep.

And more modern/urban for Aremi, gotcha. Should the hoodie have a spooky design on it for the Halloween theming? I was thinking of maybe recycling the hoodie of an old character of mine since you mentioned you wanted some ghostly element in there. Colors would need some adjusting of course.

Spoiler

 

[Glubbfubb]

So smaller head and bulkier body for Ahab then? I doodled the left Ahab after you brought up Thumpback since I wasn't sure what kind of head to body ratio you wanted to go for. I also forgot to ask earlier. Is he meant to have a tail like an actual whale or just the head?

As for Weevle, I had kind of a vaguely Kamen Rider esque idea but leaning even more into the bug motif for the mask. I'll try to workshop some doodles of her in a bit or maybe tomorrow if I fall asleep.

And more modern/urban for Aremi, gotcha. Should the hoodie have a spooky design on it for the Halloween theming? I was thinking of maybe recycling the hoodie of an old character of mine since you mentioned you wanted some ghostly element in there. Colors would need some adjusting of course.

Spoiler

View attachment 382824

Really depends on you if Ahab has a tail, wasnt planning on using any tail attacks in his moveset but I do think a tail can make him aerodynamic since he fights best in the the.

The hoodie can work for Aremi, as long as Aremi is still a plant it can work, I also intended the hoodie to have some olive green accents.

 

[Kirbeh]

Really depends on you if Ahab has a tail, wasnt planning on using any tail attacks in his moveset but I do think a tail can make him aerodynamic since he fights best in the the.

The hoodie can work for Aremi, as long as Aremi is still a plant it can work, I also intended the hoodie to have some olive green accents.

Yeah, the colors are getting adjusted, I was only recycling the base design of the hoodie. That said, what should the base color be then if olive green is just the accent color?

Also quick Weevle face doodles

Spoiler

 

[Glubbfubb]

Yeah, the colors are getting adjusted, I was only recycling the base design of the hoodie. That said, what should the base color be then if olive green is just the accent color?

Also quick Weevle face doodles

Spoiler

View attachment 382825

Aremi would have mauve, olive green, and wheat tan as her clothing colors, mixing witch inspiration with a scarecrow

I quite like Weevle's, she has a nice youthful spin to her while retaining the danger of being a vampire. It should be noted that Weevle is by far the frailest and lightest character in the cast, so a smaller, childlike frame would be best for her. I sort of want each design to showcase their gameplay abilities, since that is just good game design.

 

[Kirbeh]

Aremi would have mauve, olive green, and wheat tan as her clothing colors, mixing witch inspiration with a scarecrow

I quite like Weevle's, she has a nice youthful spin to her while retaining the danger of being a vampire. It should be noted that Weevle is by far the frailest and lightest character in the cast, so a smaller, childlike frame would be best for her. I sort of want each design to showcase their gameplay abilities, since that is just good game design.

Does Aremi have "hair" btw? Or just bald, round wooden(?) head? Hoodie should be down or up?

Smol vampire bug thing for Weevle got it. I quite like that angle too, a bit unorthodox for the small/frail looking character to be the grappler, but that makes her all the more unique. Granted you want her to be a hybrid, so her small stature fits the rushdown side but still.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Does Aremi have "hair" btw? Or just bald, round wooden(?) head? Hoodie should be down or up?

Smol vampire bug thing for Weevle got it. I quite like that angle too, a bit unorthodox for the small/frail looking character to be the grappler, but that makes her all the more unique. Granted you want her to be a hybrid, so her small stature fits the rushdown side but still.

Aremi usually has her hood up, and I don't know about her hair, if you can make it fit the design I am okay with what ever you do, maybe make it on the short side so it fits in her hoodie quite nicely. And her face isn't wood, its based off a pumpkin.

 

[Kirbeh]

Aremi usually has her hood up, and I don't know about her hair, if you can make it fit the design I am okay with what ever you do, maybe make it on the short side so it fits in her hoodie quite nicely. And her face isn't wood, its based off a pumpkin.

Okay, so it's literally a pumpkin (shape) then? I'm talking about her head as a whole, not just the face being jack-o-lantern inspired. Should the shape be more pumpkin shaped (curvy bumps/ridges) or more rounded like Jack Skellington's head? So, I guess what I mean is smooth vs bumpier/textured looking?

 

[Glubbfubb]

Okay, so it's literally a pumpkin (shape) then? I'm talking about her head as a whole, not just the face being jack-o-lantern inspired. Should the shape be more pumpkin shaped (curvy bumps/ridges) or more rounded like Jack Skellington's head? So, I guess what I mean is smooth vs bumpier/textured looking?

Its a smooth round pumpkin, not a rough bumpy one, young Wikkans all have smooth heads before gaining more bumpy textures in their adult stages

 

[Kirbeh]

Its a smooth round pumpkin, not a rough bumpy one, young Wikkans all have smooth heads before gaining more bumpy textures in their adult stages

Gonna be honest, I've no idea where to put the mauve in this design. Included the color references to get an idea if these are the specific ones you're going for.

I did give her hair based on the vines pumpkins grow on plus the leaves. And a flower also based on the vines that pumpkins grow on. I also know you wanted her to be sleeveless, still figuring out how to make that look nice. Will get around to it tomorrow. Might get rid of the face on the hoodie too, dunno yet.

Spoiler

 

[Glubbfubb]

Gonna be honest, I've no idea where to put the mauve in this design. Included the color references to get an idea if these are the specific ones you're going for.

I did give her hair based on the vines pumpkins grow on plus the leaves. And a flower also based on the vines that pumpkins grow on. I also know you wanted her to be sleeveless, still figuring out how to make that look nice. Will get around to it tomorrow. Might get rid of the face on the hoodie too, dunno yet.

Spoiler

View attachment 382826

No I like what you have right now, she has that spoopy scrunkly appearance everyone likes, so she has a strong design. Maybe she could have a vine on her right arm for her tether grab and some mold on her left arm that she tosses for her Down Special alondside maybe a satchel for the Pumpkin Bombs she tosses. It should be noted the fire she creates is purple, just want to get that out, check her profile for info on her other specials.

 

[Kirbeh]

No I like what you have right now, she has that spoopy scrunkly appearance everyone likes, so she has a strong design. Maybe she could have a vine on her right arm for her tether grab and some mold on her left arm that she tosses for her Down Special alondside maybe a satchel for the Pumpkin Bombs she tosses. It should be noted the fire she creates is purple, just want to get that out, check her profile for info on her other specials.

I was actually in the middle of editing my previous post to address the purple fire. so allow me to copy/paste;

If I may provide some input of my own, I honestly feel as though a darker color palette would suit the design better. Given her affinity for fire based attacks using the pyronite, I think a dark gray, brown, maroon or black to contrast against the brighter purple flames she produces would work well. Plus, I think it might fit better with the more urban look. Then we lighten her body to be the olive-green tone or go full on orange to go with the Halloween pumpkin motif. (Or the orange and other gourd colors could be saved for her alternate color options too.) Or we use the straw/wheat color to achieve the scarecrow look for her body while again adjusting the hoodie to something darker for contrast. Some pumpkins/gourds like squash have similar coloration too, so it fits the other way too.

If you like the colors as they are though, then I suppose just take everything I said and apply it to her alt colors instead. How many are you aiming for btw? If this is going to be a, I guess we could call it traditional? 4-Player game, I think at least 4 colors per character is the minimum to cover 4-way dittos. In which case, for Aremi at least I think an orange body/face (traditional Halloween pumpkin), wheat/straw colored body (scarecrow), and a white coloration (skeleton) would be good fits.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I was actually in the middle of editing my previous post to address the purple fire. so allow me to copy/paste;

If I may provide some input of my own, I honestly feel as though a darker color palette would suit the design better. Given her affinity for fire based attacks using the pyronite, I think a dark gray, brown, maroon or black to contrast against the brighter purple flames she produces would work well. Plus, I think it might fit better with the more urban look. Then we lighten her body to be the olive-green tone or go full on orange to go with the Halloween pumpkin motif. (Or the orange and other gourd colors could be saved for her alternate color options too.) Or we use the straw/wheat color to achieve the scarecrow look for her body while again adjusting the hoodie to something darker for contrast. Some pumpkins/gourds like squash have similar coloration too, so it fits the other way too.

If you like the colors as they are though, then I suppose just take everything I said and apply it to her alt colors instead. How many are you aiming for btw? If this is going to be a, I guess we could call it traditional? 4-Player game, I think at least 4 colors per character is the minimum to cover 4-way dittos. In which case, for Aremi at least I think an orange body/face (traditional Halloween pumpkin), wheat/straw colored body (scarecrow), and a white coloration (skeleton) would be good fits.

Yeah a darker color palate would work for her default color, try that

Also btw I am making a new character, my take on a summoner character, Samson, basically if you give Ristar a perpetual Dreamworks Face. look out for him he is quite fun.

 

[Kirbeh]

Yeah a darker color palate would work for her default color, try that

Also btw I am making a new character, my take on a summoner character, Samson, basically if you give Ristar a perpetual Dreamworks Face. look out for him he is quite fun.

I'll give it a go tomorrow then (3AM for me rn). Probably experiment with some other color combos too.

Also, I forgot to address the other ideas you presented. I like the vine on the arm and the satchel feels like a must too, so I'll see about adding those in. I don't know about the moldy arm though. Partly because I think adding too many additional details might make her design too cluttered/busy looking (left arm vine and satchel seem like enough accessories imo) and also, I just personally don't like the moldy arm idea. Not my character though so if you want it, you want it. I will add a suggestion for an alternative though. Since you're already including the pouch/satchel, perhaps she could also keep some flasks containing the mold in the pouch as well? Or given that she's a plant herself, perhaps she could produce flowers that emit methane. Then she would be planting a trap in both literally and as a gameplay thing.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I'll give it a go tomorrow then (3AM for me rn). Probably experiment with some other color combos too.

Also, I forgot to address the other ideas you presented. I like the vine on the arm and the satchel feels like a must too, so I'll see about adding those in. I don't know about the moldy arm though. Partly because I think adding too many additional details might make her design too cluttered/busy looking (left arm vine and satchel seem like enough accessories imo) and also, I just personally don't like the moldy arm idea. Not my character though so if you want it you want it. I will add a suggestion for an alternative though. Since you're already including the pouch/satchel, perhaps she could also keep some flasks containing the mold in the pouch as well?

Yeah those ideas may be the best too.

Btw, if your interested in being the artist for my game, I am more than happy to include you into my team, Though I am a bit off from making my own custom character yet, my framework still needs a few bugfixes, and those are the worst kind of bugfixes; those are where you have no idea where they originate from, so I don't know how long that will take. Don't worry game dev is going smoothly otherwise, its just this wall that I have to deal with.

 

[Kirbeh]

Yeah those ideas may be the best too.

Btw, if your interested in being the artist for my game, I am more than happy to include you into my team, Though I am a bit off from making my own custom character yet, my framework still needs a few bugfixes, and those are the worst kind of bugfixes; those are where you have no idea where they originate from, so I don't know how long that will take. Don't worry game dev is going smoothly otherwise, its just this wall that I have to deal with.

Like I mentioned before, I'm not a professional. I like to draw and design my own characters, but I've no actual dev/production experience. Plus, I'm very much a novice for digital art. If you're willing to have me on though, I'm still down for it. Just bear with the scuffed art, I'm learning as I go.

 

[Glubbfubb]

BTW New character added, Samson, a star summoning kid of light, who ironically is quite full of himself.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Like I mentioned before, I'm not a professional. I like to draw and design my own characters, but I've no actual dev/production experience. Plus, I'm very much a novice for digital art. If you're willing to have me on though, I'm still down for it. Just bear with the scuffed art, I'm learning as I go.

That's okay, I am also learning as I go, talking with people like you is healthy for me as that gives me motivation to keep going.

 

[Kirbeh]

That's okay, I am also learning as I go, talking with people like you is healthy for me as that gives me motivation to keep going.

Count me in then. I'm heading to bed for tonight though.

basically if you give Ristar a perpetual Dreamworks Face

I don't know what that means, but I'm scared.

I like Ristar though, so I'm hoping that's a good thing.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Okay, Kirbeh is our (well my since it was just me) newest artist, that is some nice drive for me.

Count me in then. I'm heading to bed for tonight though.


I don't know what that means, but I'm scared.

I like Ristar though, so I'm hoping that's a good thing.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Sorry I'm late to this - but it seems like there's a lot of headway, which is awesome to see!

So far, what archtypes do you think I am lacking in the roster, I don't know if I am ready for a summoner or puppet fighter, that seems a bit too complex for a base roster.

I don't really think they'd absolutely be "too complex" off the bat, it'd just depend on how you handled them. A good example of this is, funnily enough, Rosalina - she's a lot simpler than, say, Zato-1, most of the cast of HFTF, or otherwise, but she's still unmistakably a puppet fighter. If you have a concept you wanna go for - go for it!

A dedicated zoner I guess? Maybe a non-grappler bruiser? A ninja or kung fu/karate/other martial artist character if you want to go into some common FG tropes. Given the ongoing changes to movesets, I would say it might be a good idea to include the current/intended archetype in the character profiles you have on the main post.

I think these are great calls. Though - one thing I'd maybe suggest, is that if you were to go for a traditional gi-wearer of some kind, it might be a good idea to step away from the traditional shoto archetype for them, and do something a little different. Not necessarily a "joke character" like Dan, but an alternate take on the general design idea - whether it be akin to Makoto (SF)'s speedy grappler nature, Akira (VF)'s very high skill ceiling, Ryoko (FH)'s high-risk-high-reward powerhous nature, or something otherwise - could be a lot of fun. And, come to think of it - imagining how "alien martial arts" might look could be interesting, considering the potential of how it'd look for unique alien physiology!

Hey,

Updated the current roster to include those details, giving a vague summery of their appearance.

This is a great call! It's nice to see the characters starting to actually take shape!

A bunch of awnsers:
To be honest, I don't know what art style I am going for currently, I just want to be distinct from Rival of Aether's aesthetic and try to be distinct. Coloring-wise, I want to aim for a Street Fighter Alpha aesthetic: bright but varied colors with a hint of saturation. As long as the style is distinct from Aether and doesn't utilize art tropes I hate like gratuitous fanservice I am really okay with anything as long as it meets my previous preferences.

I really like this, at least by the sounds of things. Alpha's bright, visually distinct colours really help characters to stand out - and I think it's also worth noting the animations from these games are pretty neat too! Though - would you want to go for 2D, sprite-based characters, or 3D characters on a 2D plane? (I feel like it'd be important to make the distinction early!)

Really depends on you if Ahab has a tail, wasnt planning on using any tail attacks in his moveset but I do think a tail can make him aerodynamic since he fights best in the the.

Random thought, but - Ahab's design (loosely) kind of reminds me of Duff McWhalen from Mega Man X5 - maybe it'd be a useful reference of some kind?

Yeah, the colors are getting adjusted, I was only recycling the base design of the hoodie. That said, what should the base color be then if olive green is just the accent color?

Also quick Weevle face doodles

Spoiler

View attachment 382825

Okay, I absolutely love this Kamen Rider face mask look. Especially how it opens up to reveal her face underneath - that's awesome.

BTW New character added, Samson, a star summoning kid of light, who ironically is quite full of himself.

Samson looks really fun! Him constantly having a DreamWorks smile is honestly pretty funny - and his Star Summon neutral special is really cool too, vaguely reminding me of Mega Man Maker's take on Mega Man 5's Star Man. It seems like a pretty fun take on the concept!