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I think the easiest method for our purposes would be to represent this on the HUD rather than through the characters themselves. A transparent color overlay over character portraits with an accompanying symbol/icon to represent a particular status ailment. Alternatively, a color-coded textbox like in the Pokémon games could work too.I guess at that point you'd need to question what the "flu" effect would look like? Maybe a particle effect would work (and an overlay on their sprites) but you'd probably struggle if you wanted to have opponents sneeze as their idles (given they'd all need new sprites for it.)
I think a good way of differentiating the two would be to make the virus/amoeba character very light with fast air speed but not the same level of control and mobility as Ahab. Plus, the virus would rely on inflicting its status condition focusing on a more defensive hit and run (or maybe a trap setter or zoner?) playstyle whereas Ahab is a hard-hitting bruiser who can go all in on offense in most situations.As for the concept otherwise though, sounds pretty neat - the playstyle reminds me a little of Mobius Ahab?
I'll echo this sentiment again as well.Not to sound rude, but even having 14 base-roster characters is a lot! One thing that might help (though this is purely the gamedev student side of me talking) is some more solid documentation beyond just movesets - fighting game system mechanics can go pretty deep, and making sure all of those fit well is pretty much essential.
Good point, I think focusing on Aremi, Ahab, Kowalski, EPSILON, LAMBDA, Weevle, Levi, and Wynnie would be a good focus as I feel like they are the most "essential" in the roster so to speak.I think the easiest method for our purposes would be to represent this on the HUD rather than through the characters themselves. A transparent color overlay over character portraits with an accompanying symbol/icon to represent a particular status ailment. Alternatively, a color-coded textbox like in the Pokémon games could work too.
View attachment 383132View attachment 383133View attachment 383134
mockupdoodle
Poison
Ailment: Damage over time.
Cure: The status bar depletes over time.
Burn
Ailment: The burning status will cause shields to drain or "burn away" faster. Shielding will also cause chip damage to the user. If you shield is broken under the burning status, it will "ignite" causing the attack to deal explosive damage and knockback.
Cure: The status bar quickly depletes over time.
Frost
Ailment: When the frost bar is filled, the character will become frozen. The bar fills when hit by ice attacks.
Cure: The bar will slowly deplete or "thaw" over time. If frozen, mash to free yourself, otherwise, the status will be lost when the opponent hits you again.
Virus
Ailment: Stops meter gain and slowly drains it.
Cure: The status bar depletes as you land attacks on opponents.
Other: Attacking the same opponent repeatedly will fill up a temporary bar and when full, they too will become infected.
View attachment 383135
I think a good way of differentiating the two would be to make the virus/amoeba character very light with fast air speed but not the same level of control and mobility as Ahab. Plus, the virus would rely on inflicting its status condition focusing on a more defensive hit and run (or maybe a trap setter or zoner?) playstyle whereas Ahab is a hard-hitting bruiser who can go all in on offense in most situations.
I'll echo this sentiment again as well.Glubbfubb , you started with 14 slots and have been filling them with characters ideas as they come to you. You're sitting at 10 (or 9 if you don't count Curies who lacks a concrete written concept/pitch.) I would argue launching with just 8 characters would be perfectly fine for a project like this. 10 if manageable and 12 if you truly want to be ambitious, but you definitely need more team members. Even at 12, that's more than Smash 64 if you don't count Luigi/Puff for being (semi) clones. Plus, it's still more work overall just by being sprite based.
Jotting down more ideas to add for characters and content down the line is fine but remember to keep feature/content creep in mind.
I'll also echo Knee's suggestion of outlining the gameplay and mechanics somewhere in the OP. After that, I'd say it'd be good to really zero in on the core roster you want for base. Go over who you have the most concrete/workable ideas for and do any necessary revisions to their play if needed.
I know I said as much before, and I don't mean to be overly critical, but I still feel Kowalski is the weak link among these characters. Story wise, he's fine and I'm sure you've got big things planned for him, hence his inclusion as an essential character. His move set in my opinion still feels lacking though. The core idea of the staff makes enough sense: he's a mid-ranged fighter all about spacing. That's perfectly fine, and I don't think I'll have any trouble coming up with normals for him.Good point, I think focusing on Aremi, Ahab, Kowalski, EPSILON, LAMBDA, Weevle, Levi, and Wynnie would be a good focus as I feel like they are the most "essential" in the roster so to speak.
I think I mentioned it before, but my issue with this move is how the animation would look off in the air. I do really like the idea of using the staff as a springboard, but I think having a different move in the air or making this one into an Up Smash/Burst might be worth considering.Up Special:
Spring Bone
A chargeable attack that launches Kowalski straight up off the end of his bone staff, unlike most recovery moves this doesn't send him to freefall.
Given his poor close-range capabilities and need of the staff for most, if not all, of his attacks, I don't see where exactly throwing his staff like a boomerang fits into his kit/playstyle. Not that he can't or shouldn't have a projectile, but one where he throws his staff would require him to be either completely defenseless until it returns to him or have an additional set of unarmed moves that would only come into play for a few seconds at best. I imagine something likeNeutral Special:
Staff Snap
Kowalski tosses his bone staff like a boomerang. While it is not a strong or fast attack, it has decent knockback, range, and can shred shields effectively.
Correct me if my interpretation of the move is wrong, but I basically see this as Rolling Attack ("Blanka Ball") from Street Fighter. The idea is fine, but my reservations with this one are basically the same as the Up Special. On the ground the animation works well, but the startup in the air would look odd. If he were leaping on his own it'd be one thing, but having the staff go upright and rigid in midair so he can bend it backwards and propel himself forward primarily works when there's ground beneath for leverage.Side Special:
Bone Vault
Flicking on the top of his staff, Kowalski flips himself forward as a projectile in an arch. The sooner you hit the attack, the more knockback it deals, but the later you hit the attack the more damage you deal. This move also acts as a horizontal recovery.
This last one is honestly the most egregious imo, but only because it feels like a holdover from the initial pitch you had for a "skeletal, bone-summoning monkey." Outside of the staff/spear being made of bone, the bone aspect doesn't really come into play anywhere else in the move set. If you change the material that the staff is made from, it changes nothing and otherwise feels like a purely aesthetic choice. Which is fine btw, just feels like a missed opportunity to not play into that aspect more.Down Special:
Growth Spurt
Kowalski sprouts a tall bone from the ground, while this is initially treated like a wall, Kowalski can tip the bone over for some extra damage.
I am interested in your Wynnie and Levi pitch, as long as they stay close to the initial gameplay concept I am okay with what you cook up.I know I said as much before, and I don't mean to be overly critical, but I still feel Kowalski is the weak link among these characters. Story wise, he's fine and I'm sure you've got big things planned for him, hence his inclusion as an essential character. His move set in my opinion still feels lacking though. The core idea of the staff makes enough sense: he's a mid-ranged fighter all about spacing. That's perfectly fine, and I don't think I'll have any trouble coming up with normals for him.
For me, the problem arises with the few moves you do have for him so far. The specials both conceptually and visually feel off (or could simply use more detail to better explain their utility/function in his kit.)
I think I mentioned it before, but my issue with this move is how the animation would look off in the air. I do really like the idea of using the staff as a springboard, but I think having a different move in the air or making this one into an Up Smash/Burst might be worth considering.
Given his poor close-range capabilities and need of the staff for most, if not all, of his attacks, I don't see where exactly throwing his staff like a boomerang fits into his kit/playstyle. Not that he can't or shouldn't have a projectile, but one where he throws his staff would require him to be either completely defenseless until it returns to him or have an additional set of unarmed moves that would only come into play for a few seconds at best. I imagine something like's Blazing End is what you had in mind here? In her case the loss of her weapon is made up for by being decently strong, whereas you specify that this one is not. Plus, Pyra also has greater survivability by being somewhat heavy, which while you didn't specify, I'm assuming a more acrobatic/mobile character like Kowalski would not be. And again, the latter is just another assumption on my part as you haven't specified a speed or weight class, etc.
I think this is mainly a case of insufficient details though. Being astyle move is just my guess. Maybe you meant something more like an actual boomerang like the Links with multiple trajectories and all that. Or is it a horizontal spin as opposed to vertical? Either way, a clearer picture could be made with some more details on the specifics of the move.
Correct me if my interpretation of the move is wrong, but I basically see this as Rolling Attack ("Blanka Ball") from Street Fighter. The idea is fine, but my reservations with this one are basically the same as the Up Special. On the ground the animation works well, but the startup in the air would look odd. If he were leaping on his own it'd be one thing, but having the staff go upright and rigid in midair so he can bend it backwards and propel himself forward primarily works when there's ground beneath for leverage.
It's not even necessarily a suspension of disbelief thing, after all. we're working with a platform fighter where stuff like double jumping is the norm. In this particular case though it feels kind of sloppy animation wise.
This last one is honestly the most egregious imo, but only because it feels like a holdover from the initial pitch you had for a "skeletal, bone-summoning monkey." Outside of the staff/spear being made of bone, the bone aspect doesn't really come into play anywhere else in the move set. If you change the material that the staff is made from, it changes nothing and otherwise feels like a purely aesthetic choice. Which is fine btw, just feels like a missed opportunity to not play into that aspect more.
The very first time you pitched the idea, I assumed this was going to be a character that played up a more supernatural element to stand out amongst the rest of the cast. I'd also assumed the summoned bones would be used to further increase the length of his staff or create temporary floating ghostly/bone platforms, or other stuff like that. Again, no offense intended, it's just that for such an interesting base concept, the moves you landed on feel kind of basic, I guess?
One more thing regarding Kowalski is his appearance. If possible, could you provide me with a particular species of monkey that you had in mind for his design? I've had a few ideas of my own (including the deviations) but he's one of the characters I've had the most trouble figuring out a good design for.
Likewise, I'd like to ask the same for Levi and Wynnie. I have an idea I'm somewhat pleased with for Wynnie, but I'm not sure if it falls in line with what you had in mind. I figure you want the designs to lean more in the animal direction for the heads/faces, but my Wynnie design leans more humanoid.
I'm referring just to the visual designs at the moment, not gameplay.I am interested in your Wynnie and Levi pitch, as long as they stay close to the initial gameplay concept I am okay with what you cook up.
Okay, that's drastically different from what I was imagining (mandrills, chimps and spider monkeys,) but it's definitely a concrete starting point for the body type and limb structure. (I had to look up who that was though, not super familiar with Star Wars.)someone based off Salacious Crumb from Star Wars but of course more skeletal and beastly.
I mean, I think the skeletal monkey and use of a staff is a perfectly good concept, I just think his specials could use some work to either A) feel more special and B) have good parity in the feel of the animations. I would like to ask why the reptilian angle though? Is it just to match the Star Wars character? And I guess that's why he's named Kowalski then? Since the start of it sounds similar to Kowakian.Also yes I think I may need to completely rework Kowalski, I still want him to be a skeletal monkey-like reptile,
Yeah I get you, as long as Levi and Wynnie's design can work with their core gameplay concepts then I am interested in what youll cook up.I'm referring just to the visual designs at the moment, not gameplay.
Okay, that's drastically different from what I was imagining (mandrills, chimps and spider monkeys,) but it's definitely a concrete starting point for the body type and limb structure. (I had to look up who that was though, not super familiar with Star Wars.)
I mean, I think the skeletal monkey and use of a staff is a perfectly good concept, I just think his specials could use some work to either A) feel more special and B) have good parity in the feel of the animations. I would like to ask why the reptilian angle though? Is it just to match the Star Wars character? And I guess that's why he's named Kowalski then? Since the start of it sounds similar to Kowakian.
Is he meant to be on the smaller side then? I was imagining something bigger to be honest.
Ah I see, that makes sense actually, and I am glad that tournaments are still strict on what is and isn't a counterpick, otherwise I could picture some teleport spammers picking something like Hanenbow or something.As a general rule, counterpicks are stages that in some way tilt the odds of the match in favour of given characters due to their own strengths, while default stages are supposed to be (fairly) balanced for all combatants. Counterpicks thus can have some more... unusual properties - for instance, Poke Floats was a legal counterpick for years due to the argument that it didn't scroll fast enough to actively reward more mobile characters, but it was eventually banned because of the weird ledge physics and small vertical blast zones that massively weighted matches in Fox's favour.
A good example of this, is how Marth players tend to counterpick with Final Destination against fastfallers like Fox, because the stage having no platforms makes it easier for Marth to get chaingrabs or tech chases while simultaneously preventing the opponent's ability to escape pressure. Alternately, a Fox player against, say, Jigglypuff, will often counterpick with Pokemon Stadium due to the low blast ceilings allowing for easier vertical K.Os and also the large stage size allowing both laser camping and access to Fox's faster movement options.
In the Melee scene specifically, there's a term called "Dave's Stupid Rule" in effect at most tournaments that, basically, doesn't allow you to counterpick with the same stage twice in a set if you've already won on it. It's an additional form of balancing more on the tournament side, and there's been various takes on it over the years.
Also - it's worth noting in terms of stage design that some elements like visuals really need to be considered. A good instance of this is Kanzuki Beach in Street Fighter 5, which is illegal due to the water on the floor being able to obviscate certain attacks and projectiles.
OKAlso I suggest you comment so you don't lose notifications from this channel.
I had the ideas, but not the actual sketches done. Been busy with work, so I haven't had time to work on them much, but I have the next two days off, so I'll probably draw them then. Might do a little tonight once I'm back home.Um heyKirbeh you said you had some sketches you wanted to show me, you never sent them, I am curious about what you drew so I am wondering when you'll post them.
That's good to know, I'm working on the game too, just there is this one big bug I don't know how to fix, which is halting progress a bit.I had the ideas, but not the actual sketches done. Been busy with work, so I haven't had time to work on them much, but I have the next two days off, so I'll probably draw them then. Might do a little tonight once I'm back home.
I like what you have so far, but yeah, a bit more reptilian. While they play like FE characters, they still have a more reptilian aesthetic, not OVERLY reptilian though. If you want a comparison, look at the dragon elders from the Spyro 1 Reignited Remake, I feel like they are a nice reference. So basically they have the builds and attires of FE characters but not the appearance so to speak, also wings are optional, I need more characters with multiple jumps so I don't mind if you add wings.Am home now. Quick sketches for Levi/Wynnie. It's a much more FE (lord + manakete)/general dragonewt inspired direction. Perhaps it's too human like for what you were aiming for. I figured you wanted something more reptilian but wasn't sure how much in either direction you wanted it to go.
In addition to the obvious FE inspiration, I also took some inspiration from Sol Badguy/Ky Kiske from Guilty Gear given their personalities. I hopefully conveyed that through the expressions even though this was a quick sketch. Levi is supposed to be more composed and though not actually a cold person, I thought he should look a bit stern. Given her fiery enthusiasm, Wynnie has a sort of "raring to go" look. I also wound-up giving Levi horns to go with his crest to give them an almost crown/headdress like look when seen from the front.
Also, another GG inspiration and a means to achieve a more reptilian/draconic look, I was thinking of giving them a power up Hypermax similar to the dragon install from GG. This could change their appearance and maybe even have them sprout temporary wings for multiple jumps.
It's probably a big departure visually but given that the crux of their kits are their weapons and not their biology, it at least doesn't affect gameplay at all.
Large image warning. Also, as a quick note: the first image was just me trying to figure out some direction, I had a more concrete idea for Wynnie despite her not being the main focus of this post. I'll sketch her out in full later, right now I was trying to experiment with Levi's design.
wyn/levi redoI like what you have so far, but yeah, a bit more reptilian. While they play like FE characters, they still have a more reptilian aesthetic, not OVERLY reptilian though. If you want a comparison, look at the dragon elders from the Spyro 1 Reignited Remake, I feel like they are a nice reference. So basically they have the builds and attires of FE characters but not the appearance so to speak, also wings are optional, I need more characters with multiple jumps so I don't mind if you add wings.
I will say some GG inspiration is a cool addition, bring more of that please they have peak character design. I want to overall aim for aesthetic that takes familiar archetypes and puts them in a new direction, so to speak.
I like these designs much better, they would make good character portraits, though of course when they actually appear in game their models will be smaller built. I do want to make that of note since I picture these two to be close in height in game to Marth and Lucina, meanwhile characters like Aremi is a bit shorter than them while Ahab is comparable in size to Bowser.
Smaller built? As in the size of the actual sprites? I don't know. That would depend on how big you want the sprites to be. Are you going for properly proportioned Capcom style sprites? Smaller scale Rivals of Aether sprites?I like these designs much better, they would make good character portraits, though of course when they actually appear in game their models will be smaller built right.
Anyway yeah quite like their designs, and I like their weapons.
You know I could just resize the sprites when I place them in Godot, so forget I said that thing about smaller built.Smaller built? As in the size of the actual sprites? I don't know. That would depend on how big you want the sprites to be. Are you going for properly proportioned Capcom style sprites? Smaller scale Rivals of Aether sprites?
Leaving the blood sucking to just the healing command grab works fine. The original mechanic was already like a second version of the hypermax meter but with drawbacks so I think it's a good change.Here is a pitch I have for a rework for Weevle
I decided to scrap the self damage mechanic and blood meter mechanic in favor of a gliding mechnic, I feel like the former mechanic is to thin of a line to balance between making her very bad or too good, while the latter is just to complicated at the moment. I feel like giving Weevle a gliding mechnic makes her feel unique to the rest of the cast as fits her intended niche as a rushdown fighter with excellent speed but bones made out of wet tissue paper. She will still have a blood sucking mechnic though, but that will instead come in the form of a unique grab mechanic where she heals herself when ever she pummels an opponent, this increases her defensive capabilities despite her terrible disabilities which when combined with some strong aerials (including a wall of pain back air) makes her a damage dealing machine, however one that can't take a hit herself. Does that sound like a good idea?
That could also work, she would be the only fighter with an aerial dash, LAMBDA would likely have a more traditional glide due to their jet compartments.Leaving the blood sucking to just the healing command grab works fine. The original mechanic was already like a second version of the hypermax meter but with drawbacks so I think it's a good change.
As for gliding, it depends on how you make the gliding function. If the idea is to help her rushdown game, I think simply giving her an airdash as a unique trait would serve better.
As part of her frail build, you could have it so her wings are ill suited for flying/gliding so she instead makes use of them for short burst movement. This means she'd also lack multiple jumps, which I think you can then give to one of the Dracons and Ahab during his "blimp" mode. Maybe one of the robots too? The more defensive one could them via some extra rockets/propulsion in their design.
I could, I'll put that in the maybe pileI don't know if this has already been suggested, but you could try adding in a combo system similar to Killer Instinct and/or Marvel VS Capcom.
I would say a command grab that works both on the ground and in the air would serve that purpose better. A standard air grab designed after traditional 2D fighters would have very limited utility, especially in a platform fighter. On the other hand, if you give her a full set of aerial grab/throw options that could easily get out of hand and become broken balance wise.How about instead of just an air dash, Weevle has an air GRAB, as in she is the only fighter in the game with an aerial grab, does that sound cool?
I think that is the best call tbh.I would say a command grab that works both on the ground and in the air would serve that purpose better. A standard air grab designed after traditional 2D fighters would have very limited utility, especially in a platform fighter. On the other hand, if you give her a full set of aerial grab/throw options that could easily get out of hand and become broken balance wise.
I think giving her a life stealing pummel for light healing and normal grounded throws are fine. Then you give her a lunging command grab to compliment her rushdown gameplay. This one could offer higher damage and more healing but leaves you open if you miss.