Sigma Busters (Name Pending): Official Discussion Thread

[Glubbfubb]

You are probably right; I should just focus on getting the mechanics right before making a roster, I just feel these roster concepts help me get some set goals for what I want the game to be.

 

[Kirbeh]

I guess at that point you'd need to question what the "flu" effect would look like? Maybe a particle effect would work (and an overlay on their sprites) but you'd probably struggle if you wanted to have opponents sneeze as their idles (given they'd all need new sprites for it.)

I think the easiest method for our purposes would be to represent this on the HUD rather than through the characters themselves. A transparent color overlay over character portraits with an accompanying symbol/icon to represent a particular status ailment. Alternatively, a color-coded textbox like in the Pokémon games could work too.

mockupdoodle

Spoiler

Poison

Ailment: Damage over time.

Cure: The status bar depletes over time.

Burn

Ailment: The burning status will cause shields to drain or "burn away" faster. Shielding will also cause chip damage to the user. If you shield is broken under the burning status, it will "ignite" causing the attack to deal explosive damage and knockback.

Cure: The status bar quickly depletes over time.

Frost

Ailment: When the frost bar is filled, the character will become frozen. The bar fills when hit by ice attacks.

Cure: The bar will slowly deplete or "thaw" over time. If frozen, mash to free yourself, otherwise, the status will be lost when the opponent hits you again.

Virus

Ailment: Stops meter gain and slowly drains it.

Cure: The status bar depletes as you land attacks on opponents.

Other: Attacking the same opponent repeatedly will fill up a temporary bar and when full, they too will become infected.

As for the concept otherwise though, sounds pretty neat - the playstyle reminds me a little of Mobius Ahab?

I think a good way of differentiating the two would be to make the virus/amoeba character very light with fast air speed but not the same level of control and mobility as Ahab. Plus, the virus would rely on inflicting its status condition focusing on a more defensive hit and run (or maybe a trap setter or zoner?) playstyle whereas Ahab is a hard-hitting bruiser who can go all in on offense in most situations.

Not to sound rude, but even having 14 base-roster characters is a lot! One thing that might help (though this is purely the gamedev student side of me talking) is some more solid documentation beyond just movesets - fighting game system mechanics can go pretty deep, and making sure all of those fit well is pretty much essential.

I'll echo this sentiment again as well. Glubbfubb , you started with 14 slots and have been filling them with characters ideas as they come to you. You're sitting at 10 (or 9 if you don't count Curies who lacks a concrete written concept/pitch.) I would argue launching with just 8 characters would be perfectly fine for a project like this. 10 if manageable and 12 if you truly want to be ambitious, but you definitely need more team members. Even at 12, that's more than Smash 64 if you don't count Luigi/Puff for being (semi) clones. Plus, it's still more work overall just by being sprite based.

Jotting down more ideas to add for characters and content down the line is fine but remember to keep feature/content creep in mind.

I'll also echo Knee's suggestion of outlining the gameplay and mechanics somewhere in the OP. After that, I'd say it'd be good to really zero in on the core roster you want for base. Go over who you have the most concrete/workable ideas for and do any necessary revisions to their play if needed.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I think the easiest method for our purposes would be to represent this on the HUD rather than through the characters themselves. A transparent color overlay over character portraits with an accompanying symbol/icon to represent a particular status ailment. Alternatively, a color-coded textbox like in the Pokémon games could work too.

View attachment 383132View attachment 383133View attachment 383134

mockupdoodle

Spoiler

Poison

Ailment: Damage over time.

Cure: The status bar depletes over time.

Burn

Ailment: The burning status will cause shields to drain or "burn away" faster. Shielding will also cause chip damage to the user. If you shield is broken under the burning status, it will "ignite" causing the attack to deal explosive damage and knockback.

Cure: The status bar quickly depletes over time.

Frost

Ailment: When the frost bar is filled, the character will become frozen. The bar fills when hit by ice attacks.

Cure: The bar will slowly deplete or "thaw" over time. If frozen, mash to free yourself, otherwise, the status will be lost when the opponent hits you again.

Virus

Ailment: Stops meter gain and slowly drains it.

Cure: The status bar depletes as you land attacks on opponents.

Other: Attacking the same opponent repeatedly will fill up a temporary bar and when full, they too will become infected.

View attachment 383135

I think a good way of differentiating the two would be to make the virus/amoeba character very light with fast air speed but not the same level of control and mobility as Ahab. Plus, the virus would rely on inflicting its status condition focusing on a more defensive hit and run (or maybe a trap setter or zoner?) playstyle whereas Ahab is a hard-hitting bruiser who can go all in on offense in most situations.


I'll echo this sentiment again as well. Glubbfubb , you started with 14 slots and have been filling them with characters ideas as they come to you. You're sitting at 10 (or 9 if you don't count Curies who lacks a concrete written concept/pitch.) I would argue launching with just 8 characters would be perfectly fine for a project like this. 10 if manageable and 12 if you truly want to be ambitious, but you definitely need more team members. Even at 12, that's more than Smash 64 if you don't count Luigi/Puff for being (semi) clones. Plus, it's still more work overall just by being sprite based.

Jotting down more ideas to add for characters and content down the line is fine but remember to keep feature/content creep in mind.

I'll also echo Knee's suggestion of outlining the gameplay and mechanics somewhere in the OP. After that, I'd say it'd be good to really zero in on the core roster you want for base. Go over who you have the most concrete/workable ideas for and do any necessary revisions to their play if needed.

Good point, I think focusing on Aremi, Ahab, Kowalski, EPSILON, LAMBDA, Weevle, Levi, and Wynnie would be a good focus as I feel like they are the most "essential" in the roster so to speak.

 

[Kirbeh]

Good point, I think focusing on Aremi, Ahab, Kowalski, EPSILON, LAMBDA, Weevle, Levi, and Wynnie would be a good focus as I feel like they are the most "essential" in the roster so to speak.

I know I said as much before, and I don't mean to be overly critical, but I still feel Kowalski is the weak link among these characters. Story wise, he's fine and I'm sure you've got big things planned for him, hence his inclusion as an essential character. His move set in my opinion still feels lacking though. The core idea of the staff makes enough sense: he's a mid-ranged fighter all about spacing. That's perfectly fine, and I don't think I'll have any trouble coming up with normals for him.

For me, the problem arises with the few moves you do have for him so far. The specials both conceptually and visually feel off (or could simply use more detail to better explain their utility/function in his kit.)

Up Special:
Spring Bone
A chargeable attack that launches Kowalski straight up off the end of his bone staff, unlike most recovery moves this doesn't send him to freefall.

I think I mentioned it before, but my issue with this move is how the animation would look off in the air. I do really like the idea of using the staff as a springboard, but I think having a different move in the air or making this one into an Up Smash/Burst might be worth considering.

Neutral Special:
Staff Snap
Kowalski tosses his bone staff like a boomerang. While it is not a strong or fast attack, it has decent knockback, range, and can shred shields effectively.

Given his poor close-range capabilities and need of the staff for most, if not all, of his attacks, I don't see where exactly throwing his staff like a boomerang fits into his kit/playstyle. Not that he can't or shouldn't have a projectile, but one where he throws his staff would require him to be either completely defenseless until it returns to him or have an additional set of unarmed moves that would only come into play for a few seconds at best. I imagine something like 's Blazing End is what you had in mind here? In her case the loss of her weapon is made up for by being decently strong, whereas you specify that this one is not. Plus, Pyra also has greater survivability by being somewhat heavy, which while you didn't specify, I'm assuming a more acrobatic/mobile character like Kowalski would not be. And again, the latter is just another assumption on my part as you haven't specified a speed or weight class, etc.
I think this is mainly a case of insufficient details though. Being a style move is just my guess. Maybe you meant something more like an actual boomerang like the Links with multiple trajectories and all that. Or is it a horizontal spin as opposed to vertical? Either way, a clearer picture could be made with some more details on the specifics of the move.

Side Special:
Bone Vault
Flicking on the top of his staff, Kowalski flips himself forward as a projectile in an arch. The sooner you hit the attack, the more knockback it deals, but the later you hit the attack the more damage you deal. This move also acts as a horizontal recovery.

Correct me if my interpretation of the move is wrong, but I basically see this as Rolling Attack ("Blanka Ball") from Street Fighter. The idea is fine, but my reservations with this one are basically the same as the Up Special. On the ground the animation works well, but the startup in the air would look odd. If he were leaping on his own it'd be one thing, but having the staff go upright and rigid in midair so he can bend it backwards and propel himself forward primarily works when there's ground beneath for leverage.

It's not even necessarily a suspension of disbelief thing, after all. we're working with a platform fighter where stuff like double jumping is the norm. In this particular case though it feels kind of sloppy animation wise.

Down Special:
Growth Spurt
Kowalski sprouts a tall bone from the ground, while this is initially treated like a wall, Kowalski can tip the bone over for some extra damage.

This last one is honestly the most egregious imo, but only because it feels like a holdover from the initial pitch you had for a "skeletal, bone-summoning monkey." Outside of the staff/spear being made of bone, the bone aspect doesn't really come into play anywhere else in the move set. If you change the material that the staff is made from, it changes nothing and otherwise feels like a purely aesthetic choice. Which is fine btw, just feels like a missed opportunity to not play into that aspect more.

The very first time you pitched the idea, I assumed this was going to be a character that played up a more supernatural element to stand out amongst the rest of the cast. I'd also assumed the summoned bones would be used to further increase the length of his staff or create temporary floating ghostly/bone platforms, or other stuff like that. Again, no offense intended, it's just that for such an interesting base concept, the moves you landed on feel kind of basic, I guess?

One more thing regarding Kowalski is his appearance. If possible, could you provide me with a particular species of monkey that you had in mind for his design? I've had a few ideas of my own (including the deviations) but he's one of the characters I've had the most trouble figuring out a good design for.

Likewise, I'd like to ask the same for Levi and Wynnie. I have an idea I'm somewhat pleased with for Wynnie, but I'm not sure if it falls in line with what you had in mind. I figure you want the designs to lean more in the animal direction for the heads/faces, but my Wynnie design leans more humanoid.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I know I said as much before, and I don't mean to be overly critical, but I still feel Kowalski is the weak link among these characters. Story wise, he's fine and I'm sure you've got big things planned for him, hence his inclusion as an essential character. His move set in my opinion still feels lacking though. The core idea of the staff makes enough sense: he's a mid-ranged fighter all about spacing. That's perfectly fine, and I don't think I'll have any trouble coming up with normals for him.

For me, the problem arises with the few moves you do have for him so far. The specials both conceptually and visually feel off (or could simply use more detail to better explain their utility/function in his kit.)



I think I mentioned it before, but my issue with this move is how the animation would look off in the air. I do really like the idea of using the staff as a springboard, but I think having a different move in the air or making this one into an Up Smash/Burst might be worth considering.



Given his poor close-range capabilities and need of the staff for most, if not all, of his attacks, I don't see where exactly throwing his staff like a boomerang fits into his kit/playstyle. Not that he can't or shouldn't have a projectile, but one where he throws his staff would require him to be either completely defenseless until it returns to him or have an additional set of unarmed moves that would only come into play for a few seconds at best. I imagine something like 's Blazing End is what you had in mind here? In her case the loss of her weapon is made up for by being decently strong, whereas you specify that this one is not. Plus, Pyra also has greater survivability by being somewhat heavy, which while you didn't specify, I'm assuming a more acrobatic/mobile character like Kowalski would not be. And again, the latter is just another assumption on my part as you haven't specified a speed or weight class, etc.
I think this is mainly a case of insufficient details though. Being a style move is just my guess. Maybe you meant something more like an actual boomerang like the Links with multiple trajectories and all that. Or is it a horizontal spin as opposed to vertical? Either way, a clearer picture could be made with some more details on the specifics of the move.



Correct me if my interpretation of the move is wrong, but I basically see this as Rolling Attack ("Blanka Ball") from Street Fighter. The idea is fine, but my reservations with this one are basically the same as the Up Special. On the ground the animation works well, but the startup in the air would look odd. If he were leaping on his own it'd be one thing, but having the staff go upright and rigid in midair so he can bend it backwards and propel himself forward primarily works when there's ground beneath for leverage.

It's not even necessarily a suspension of disbelief thing, after all. we're working with a platform fighter where stuff like double jumping is the norm. In this particular case though it feels kind of sloppy animation wise.



This last one is honestly the most egregious imo, but only because it feels like a holdover from the initial pitch you had for a "skeletal, bone-summoning monkey." Outside of the staff/spear being made of bone, the bone aspect doesn't really come into play anywhere else in the move set. If you change the material that the staff is made from, it changes nothing and otherwise feels like a purely aesthetic choice. Which is fine btw, just feels like a missed opportunity to not play into that aspect more.

The very first time you pitched the idea, I assumed this was going to be a character that played up a more supernatural element to stand out amongst the rest of the cast. I'd also assumed the summoned bones would be used to further increase the length of his staff or create temporary floating ghostly/bone platforms, or other stuff like that. Again, no offense intended, it's just that for such an interesting base concept, the moves you landed on feel kind of basic, I guess?

One more thing regarding Kowalski is his appearance. If possible, could you provide me with a particular species of monkey that you had in mind for his design? I've had a few ideas of my own (including the deviations) but he's one of the characters I've had the most trouble figuring out a good design for.

Likewise, I'd like to ask the same for Levi and Wynnie. I have an idea I'm somewhat pleased with for Wynnie, but I'm not sure if it falls in line with what you had in mind. I figure you want the designs to lean more in the animal direction for the heads/faces, but my Wynnie design leans more humanoid.

I am interested in your Wynnie and Levi pitch, as long as they stay close to the initial gameplay concept I am okay with what you cook up.

Also yes I think I may need to completely rework Kowalski, I still want him to be a skeletal monkey-like reptile, someone based off Salacious Crumb from Star Wars but of course more skeletal and beastly.

 

[Kirbeh]

I am interested in your Wynnie and Levi pitch, as long as they stay close to the initial gameplay concept I am okay with what you cook up.

I'm referring just to the visual designs at the moment, not gameplay.

someone based off Salacious Crumb from Star Wars but of course more skeletal and beastly.

Okay, that's drastically different from what I was imagining (mandrills, chimps and spider monkeys,) but it's definitely a concrete starting point for the body type and limb structure. (I had to look up who that was though, not super familiar with Star Wars.)

Also yes I think I may need to completely rework Kowalski, I still want him to be a skeletal monkey-like reptile,

I mean, I think the skeletal monkey and use of a staff is a perfectly good concept, I just think his specials could use some work to either A) feel more special and B) have good parity in the feel of the animations. I would like to ask why the reptilian angle though? Is it just to match the Star Wars character? And I guess that's why he's named Kowalski then? Since the start of it sounds similar to Kowakian.

Is he meant to be on the smaller side then? I was imagining something bigger to be honest.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I'm referring just to the visual designs at the moment, not gameplay.


Okay, that's drastically different from what I was imagining (mandrills, chimps and spider monkeys,) but it's definitely a concrete starting point for the body type and limb structure. (I had to look up who that was though, not super familiar with Star Wars.)



I mean, I think the skeletal monkey and use of a staff is a perfectly good concept, I just think his specials could use some work to either A) feel more special and B) have good parity in the feel of the animations. I would like to ask why the reptilian angle though? Is it just to match the Star Wars character? And I guess that's why he's named Kowalski then? Since the start of it sounds similar to Kowakian.

Is he meant to be on the smaller side then? I was imagining something bigger to be honest.

Yeah I get you, as long as Levi and Wynnie's design can work with their core gameplay concepts then I am interested in what youll cook up.

I imagine Kowalski as a lightweight who uses the reach of his staff to push people away from his frail base defenses

 

[Glubbfubb]

Thinking of maps for stage concepts, and I want to ask: how does the competitive scene determine which stages is a couterpick or not?

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

As a general rule, counterpicks are stages that in some way tilt the odds of the match in favour of given characters due to their own strengths, while default stages are supposed to be (fairly) balanced for all combatants. Counterpicks thus can have some more... unusual properties - for instance, Poke Floats was a legal counterpick for years due to the argument that it didn't scroll fast enough to actively reward more mobile characters, but it was eventually banned because of the weird ledge physics and small vertical blast zones that massively weighted matches in Fox's favour.

A good example of this, is how Marth players tend to counterpick with Final Destination against fastfallers like Fox, because the stage having no platforms makes it easier for Marth to get chaingrabs or tech chases while simultaneously preventing the opponent's ability to escape pressure. Alternately, a Fox player against, say, Jigglypuff, will often counterpick with Pokemon Stadium due to the low blast ceilings allowing for easier vertical K.Os and also the large stage size allowing both laser camping and access to Fox's faster movement options.

In the Melee scene specifically, there's a term called "Dave's Stupid Rule" in effect at most tournaments that, basically, doesn't allow you to counterpick with the same stage twice in a set if you've already won on it. It's an additional form of balancing more on the tournament side, and there's been various takes on it over the years.

Also - it's worth noting in terms of stage design that some elements like visuals really need to be considered. A good instance of this is Kanzuki Beach in Street Fighter 5, which is illegal due to the water on the floor being able to obviscate certain attacks and projectiles.

 

[Glubbfubb]

As a general rule, counterpicks are stages that in some way tilt the odds of the match in favour of given characters due to their own strengths, while default stages are supposed to be (fairly) balanced for all combatants. Counterpicks thus can have some more... unusual properties - for instance, Poke Floats was a legal counterpick for years due to the argument that it didn't scroll fast enough to actively reward more mobile characters, but it was eventually banned because of the weird ledge physics and small vertical blast zones that massively weighted matches in Fox's favour.

A good example of this, is how Marth players tend to counterpick with Final Destination against fastfallers like Fox, because the stage having no platforms makes it easier for Marth to get chaingrabs or tech chases while simultaneously preventing the opponent's ability to escape pressure. Alternately, a Fox player against, say, Jigglypuff, will often counterpick with Pokemon Stadium due to the low blast ceilings allowing for easier vertical K.Os and also the large stage size allowing both laser camping and access to Fox's faster movement options.

In the Melee scene specifically, there's a term called "Dave's Stupid Rule" in effect at most tournaments that, basically, doesn't allow you to counterpick with the same stage twice in a set if you've already won on it. It's an additional form of balancing more on the tournament side, and there's been various takes on it over the years.

Also - it's worth noting in terms of stage design that some elements like visuals really need to be considered. A good instance of this is Kanzuki Beach in Street Fighter 5, which is illegal due to the water on the floor being able to obviscate certain attacks and projectiles.

Ah I see, that makes sense actually, and I am glad that tournaments are still strict on what is and isn't a counterpick, otherwise I could picture some teleport spammers picking something like Hanenbow or something.

Also I think this is a given, all the stages will be on each fighter's home planet, and EPSILON and LAMBDA's home stages will be the Battlefield and Final Destination analogs, though EPSILON's stage will take inspiration from Warioware's platform layout as well.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I am tired today, going to take a break on working on the game to recharge myself, sorry for the lack of dev updates today, will work on it tommorow.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Here is how I am going to set up the Arcade/Adventure Mode of the game

You first hop to Wikka-1, Aremi's homeworld, a methane-infused valley of vines. Between the explosive pumpkins, thorny branches, toxic mud, and killer plants, it is a very hazardous planet. After exploring for a bit, you come face-to-face with Aremi on her home stage. Afterwards, you see the Double Sigma collect some Pyronite, and you follow it to the next planet.

Din Sola is a planet of scum and villainy; piracy is rampant, with the smuggling of endangered species being especially pronounced. One of these pens holds Kowalski and his home stage, and after some fighting, you decide to free him and his species, and in return, he steals a ship for you to head to the next planet, but not before space pirates raid the base, leading to a chase scene.

On your way across the stars, you stop to refuel in the Great Tide Nebula, where you somehow end up in the middle of a brawl with the champion of the system, Mobius Ahab. This is a stamina battle, whoever goes down first wins. After winning, you skydive down a tempest and get shot to the nearest planet; luckily, this is your last stop, Draden.

Draden as a stage is a large dungeon-like area where you need to swap between the icy caverns and broiling surface to proceed. Be careful of certain areas, as those are actually ambush spots for either Wynnie or Levi, where you need to fight them to proceed.

Finally you latch onto the Double Sigma. Weevle, however, catches up to you, and therefore she needs to fought to proceed. After that, you come face-to-face with LAMBDA (or EPSILON if you play as LAMBDA themselves), and you need to fight them to beat the mode. They have a normal fight, and if beaten without using a continue, you face their hyper mode, which gives them super armor and enhanced attacks. Once beaten, you are rewarded with a cool black and purple alt and an achievement.

I made this summary since a friend asked me what the arcade mode is like, so I decided to post it here too. How does that sound?

 

[Glubbfubb]

Dev Update: Added code for ledges in my platfighter, haven't tested them yet, that is for tomorrow.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Dev Update: Need to patch just a few more bugs and then i'll get the ledges working in my game.

Also I want to thank everyone for supporting me so far, school is just around the corner but I'll try my best working on this game.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Dev Update: There is this one very big bug I am struggling with when making ledges, its taking quite a while to fix, don't know what's wrong with it, hopefully I can fix it soon.

Also I suggest you comment so you don't lose notifications from this channel.

 

[Qwerty UIOP]

Also I suggest you comment so you don't lose notifications from this channel.

OK

 

[Glubbfubb]

So I'm working on the mechanics of Aremi's Seed Spit attack, basically her neutral special has her spit a seed bullet from her mouth that is similar to Fox's lasers in terms of damage and range, however they have a special interaction when they pass through a flame caused by her pumpkin bombs causing them to be set alight, and I'm in a quandary between makings these flaming seeds similar in function to either Falco's laser in that it's stronger and has hitstun, or Ness' PK Fire in that the flaming seeds will arch diagonally downward before exploding. I'm considering the former idea since I feel like that is a more natural upgrade from the base attacks properties, but how would work it out?

 

[Glubbfubb]

Um hey Kirbeh you said you had some sketches you wanted to show me, you never sent them, I am curious about what you drew so I am wondering when you'll post them.

 

[Kirbeh]

Um hey Kirbeh you said you had some sketches you wanted to show me, you never sent them, I am curious about what you drew so I am wondering when you'll post them.

I had the ideas, but not the actual sketches done. Been busy with work, so I haven't had time to work on them much, but I have the next two days off, so I'll probably draw them then. Might do a little tonight once I'm back home.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I had the ideas, but not the actual sketches done. Been busy with work, so I haven't had time to work on them much, but I have the next two days off, so I'll probably draw them then. Might do a little tonight once I'm back home.

That's good to know, I'm working on the game too, just there is this one big bug I don't know how to fix, which is halting progress a bit.

 

[Kirbeh]

Am home now. Quick sketches for Levi/Wynnie. It's a much more FE (lord + manakete)/general dragonewt inspired direction. Perhaps it's too human like for what you were aiming for. I figured you wanted something more reptilian but wasn't sure how much in either direction you wanted it to go.

In addition to the obvious FE inspiration, I also took some inspiration from Sol Badguy/Ky Kiske from Guilty Gear given their personalities. I hopefully conveyed that through the expressions even though this was a quick sketch. Levi is supposed to be more composed and though not actually a cold person, I thought he should look a bit stern. Given her fiery enthusiasm, Wynnie has a sort of "raring to go" look. I also wound-up giving Levi horns to go with his crest to give them an almost crown/headdress like look when seen from the front.

Also, another GG inspiration and a means to achieve a more reptilian/draconic look, I was thinking of giving them a power up Hypermax similar to the dragon install from GG. This could change their appearance and maybe even have them sprout temporary wings for multiple jumps.

It's probably a big departure visually but given that the crux of their kits are their weapons and not their biology, it at least doesn't affect gameplay at all.

Large image warning. Also, as a quick note: the first image was just me trying to figure out some direction, I had a more concrete idea for Wynnie despite her not being the main focus of this post. I'll sketch her out in full later, right now I was trying to experiment with Levi's design.

Spoiler

 

[Glubbfubb]

Am home now. Quick sketches for Levi/Wynnie. It's a much more FE (lord + manakete)/general dragonewt inspired direction. Perhaps it's too human like for what you were aiming for. I figured you wanted something more reptilian but wasn't sure how much in either direction you wanted it to go.

In addition to the obvious FE inspiration, I also took some inspiration from Sol Badguy/Ky Kiske from Guilty Gear given their personalities. I hopefully conveyed that through the expressions even though this was a quick sketch. Levi is supposed to be more composed and though not actually a cold person, I thought he should look a bit stern. Given her fiery enthusiasm, Wynnie has a sort of "raring to go" look. I also wound-up giving Levi horns to go with his crest to give them an almost crown/headdress like look when seen from the front.

Also, another GG inspiration and a means to achieve a more reptilian/draconic look, I was thinking of giving them a power up Hypermax similar to the dragon install from GG. This could change their appearance and maybe even have them sprout temporary wings for multiple jumps.

It's probably a big departure visually but given that the crux of their kits are their weapons and not their biology, it at least doesn't affect gameplay at all.

Large image warning. Also, as a quick note: the first image was just me trying to figure out some direction, I had a more concrete idea for Wynnie despite her not being the main focus of this post. I'll sketch her out in full later, right now I was trying to experiment with Levi's design.

Spoiler

View attachment 383400View attachment 383401

I like what you have so far, but yeah, a bit more reptilian. While they play like FE characters, they still have a more reptilian aesthetic, not OVERLY reptilian though. If you want a comparison, look at the dragon elders from the Spyro 1 Reignited Remake, I feel like they are a nice reference. So basically they have the builds and attires of FE characters but not the appearance so to speak, also wings are optional, I need more characters with multiple jumps so I don't mind if you add wings.

I will say some GG inspiration is a cool addition, bring more of that please they have peak character design. I want to overall aim for aesthetic that takes familiar archetypes and puts them in a new direction, so to speak.

 

[Kirbeh]

I like what you have so far, but yeah, a bit more reptilian. While they play like FE characters, they still have a more reptilian aesthetic, not OVERLY reptilian though. If you want a comparison, look at the dragon elders from the Spyro 1 Reignited Remake, I feel like they are a nice reference. So basically they have the builds and attires of FE characters but not the appearance so to speak, also wings are optional, I need more characters with multiple jumps so I don't mind if you add wings.

I will say some GG inspiration is a cool addition, bring more of that please they have peak character design. I want to overall aim for aesthetic that takes familiar archetypes and puts them in a new direction, so to speak.

wyn/levi redo

Spoiler

 

[Glubbfubb]

wyn/levi redo

Spoiler

View attachment 383409

I like these designs much better, they would make good character portraits, though of course when they actually appear in game their models will be smaller built. I do want to make that of note since I picture these two to be close in height in game to Marth and Lucina, meanwhile characters like Aremi is a bit shorter than them while Ahab is comparable in size to Bowser.

Anyway yeah quite like their designs, and I like their weapons.

 

[Kirbeh]

I like these designs much better, they would make good character portraits, though of course when they actually appear in game their models will be smaller built right.

Anyway yeah quite like their designs, and I like their weapons.

Smaller built? As in the size of the actual sprites? I don't know. That would depend on how big you want the sprites to be. Are you going for properly proportioned Capcom style sprites? Smaller scale Rivals of Aether sprites?

 

[Glubbfubb]

Smaller built? As in the size of the actual sprites? I don't know. That would depend on how big you want the sprites to be. Are you going for properly proportioned Capcom style sprites? Smaller scale Rivals of Aether sprites?

You know I could just resize the sprites when I place them in Godot, so forget I said that thing about smaller built.

Otherwise yeah good drafts; no complaints. I wonder how they look colored.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Here is a pitch I have for a rework for Weevle

I decided to scrap the self damage mechanic and blood meter mechanic in favor of a gliding mechnic, I feel like the former mechanic is to thin of a line to balance between making her very bad or too good, while the latter is just to complicated at the moment. I feel like giving Weevle a gliding mechnic makes her feel unique to the rest of the cast as fits her intended niche as a rushdown fighter with excellent speed but bones made out of wet tissue paper. She will still have a blood sucking mechnic though, but that will instead come in the form of a unique grab mechanic where she heals herself when ever she pummels an opponent, this increases her defensive capabilities despite her terrible disabilities which when combined with some strong aerials (including a wall of pain back air) makes her a damage dealing machine, however one that can't take a hit herself. Does that sound like a good idea?

 

[Kirbeh]

Here is a pitch I have for a rework for Weevle

I decided to scrap the self damage mechanic and blood meter mechanic in favor of a gliding mechnic, I feel like the former mechanic is to thin of a line to balance between making her very bad or too good, while the latter is just to complicated at the moment. I feel like giving Weevle a gliding mechnic makes her feel unique to the rest of the cast as fits her intended niche as a rushdown fighter with excellent speed but bones made out of wet tissue paper. She will still have a blood sucking mechnic though, but that will instead come in the form of a unique grab mechanic where she heals herself when ever she pummels an opponent, this increases her defensive capabilities despite her terrible disabilities which when combined with some strong aerials (including a wall of pain back air) makes her a damage dealing machine, however one that can't take a hit herself. Does that sound like a good idea?

Leaving the blood sucking to just the healing command grab works fine. The original mechanic was already like a second version of the hypermax meter but with drawbacks so I think it's a good change.

As for gliding, it depends on how you make the gliding function. If the idea is to help her rushdown game, I think simply giving her an airdash as a unique trait would serve better.

As part of her frail build, you could have it so her wings are ill suited for flying/gliding so she instead makes use of them for short burst movement. This means she'd also lack multiple jumps, which I think you can then give to one of the Dracons and Ahab during his "blimp" mode. Maybe one of the robots too? The more defensive one could them via some extra rockets/propulsion in their design.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Leaving the blood sucking to just the healing command grab works fine. The original mechanic was already like a second version of the hypermax meter but with drawbacks so I think it's a good change.

As for gliding, it depends on how you make the gliding function. If the idea is to help her rushdown game, I think simply giving her an airdash as a unique trait would serve better.

As part of her frail build, you could have it so her wings are ill suited for flying/gliding so she instead makes use of them for short burst movement. This means she'd also lack multiple jumps, which I think you can then give to one of the Dracons and Ahab during his "blimp" mode. Maybe one of the robots too? The more defensive one could them via some extra rockets/propulsion in their design.

That could also work, she would be the only fighter with an aerial dash, LAMBDA would likely have a more traditional glide due to their jet compartments.

I do think if we are going down that route, Weevle could take more inspiration to Locusts than Mosquitos, since the former is known for their sudden burst movement.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Dev Update: Fixed the glitch where the game keeps crashing, so now I can try and get the ledges working now. If i can I might even add built in wavedashing.

Another Dev Update: Got double jumping to work, yay for me.

 

[ninjahmos]

I don't know if this has already been suggested, but you could try adding in a combo system similar to Killer Instinct and/or Marvel VS Capcom.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I don't know if this has already been suggested, but you could try adding in a combo system similar to Killer Instinct and/or Marvel VS Capcom.

I could, I'll put that in the maybe pile

 

[Glubbfubb]

How about instead of just an air dash, Weevle has an air GRAB, as in she is the only fighter in the game with an aerial grab, does that sound cool?

 

[Kirbeh]

How about instead of just an air dash, Weevle has an air GRAB, as in she is the only fighter in the game with an aerial grab, does that sound cool?

I would say a command grab that works both on the ground and in the air would serve that purpose better. A standard air grab designed after traditional 2D fighters would have very limited utility, especially in a platform fighter. On the other hand, if you give her a full set of aerial grab/throw options that could easily get out of hand and become broken balance wise.

I think giving her a life stealing pummel for light healing and normal grounded throws are fine. Then you give her a lunging command grab to compliment her rushdown gameplay. This one could offer higher damage and more healing but leaves you open if you miss.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I would say a command grab that works both on the ground and in the air would serve that purpose better. A standard air grab designed after traditional 2D fighters would have very limited utility, especially in a platform fighter. On the other hand, if you give her a full set of aerial grab/throw options that could easily get out of hand and become broken balance wise.

I think giving her a life stealing pummel for light healing and normal grounded throws are fine. Then you give her a lunging command grab to compliment her rushdown gameplay. This one could offer higher damage and more healing but leaves you open if you miss.

I think that is the best call tbh.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Okay so I know there are some advanced techniques in Melee that are well-liked like Wavedashing, but are there any advanced techniques from Brawl that are generally well-liked or don't mind being seen again under a better engine?

Where I am coming from is that I don't just want to replicate advanced techniques from just Melee, but form other Smash Bros games as well, mainly 64, Melee, and Brawl.

 

[Glubbfubb]

So Kirbeh and KneeOfJustice99 I am going to make reworks for EPSILON and LAMBDA's movesets, and one thing I am consider is their down specials.

Their down specials are for the lack of a better terms, shines, they are frame 1 attacks that reflect all projectiles, not just energy projectiles since there aren't many of those, and gives them a few frames of invulnerability. Not only that but their shines also pause them in the air, allowing the ability to stall their falls, which is good for LAMBDA since they have the heaviest weight of the cast. EPSILON being more of a zoner will have their shines launch people upwards while LAMBDA, being a close range grappler with strong horizontal combo game, will launch opponents to the side.

Now the challenge comes in their Hypermax variants, my idea was that while their normal counterparts are inspired by Fox's shine, their Hypermax variants are based off Falco's shine in that they launch the shine like a projectile, the attack itself does multiple hits of small damage, is good for countering shields, and deal good knockback. My idea was that EPSILON's shine launches directly upwards and LAMBDA launches directly forward, does that sound like good and balanced attacks? How can I improve them?

BTW EPSILON's down special is called the Shine Buster, while LAMBDA is named the Shine Breaker.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I am attempting to code the UI now, I'll predict it won't be as troublesome to code over the ledges.

 

[Glubbfubb]

LAMBDA REWORK

Role: Grappler

Jab: A single focused open palm strike, the slowest of the jabs but is also among the most powerful.
Forward Tilt: One of LAMBDA's giant fists strikes from above and the other strikes from below, creating a crushing motion that deals powerful damage if you hit the sweetspot.
Down Tilt: LAMBDA's rather small feet strike forward, making it LAMBDA's weakest but quickest tilt that can be used to combo into the slower tilts.
Up Tilt: LAMBDA slams their entire body down like a giant hunk of metal, like a giant hunk of metal it is slow but hurts as lot.
Dash Attack: In terms of length this attack has the longest range of any dash attack, best used as a burst movement option rather than an attack, burning opponents with LAMBDA's flame jets aimed forward turns out not to be a very strong kill move damage wise, but it does have good knockback.

Neutral Air: LAMBDA jolts with plasmatic energy, best used as a get off me tool but it can also be used to bluff the forward air since they have similar start animations.
Forward Aerial: LAMBDA takes the charged energy inside of them and blasts it as a ball of plasma, all damage is dealt exclusively through the projectile.
Back Aerial: A unique attack since its a stall and fall that ISN'T the down aerial, LAMBDA tilts their large head backwards and travels in an crescent-shaped arc backwards.
Up Aerial: A jet-propulsion-boosted spin attack upward, slows LAMBDA's fall a small bit.
Down Aerial: A classic spike stomp, slow and strong.

Side Charge: The slowest charge attack in the game, a megaton punch with super-armor but slow start and end-lag, it is also the strongest side charge in the game, dealing over 40% damage with a single hit, rather than knocking opponents back, the punch staggers them for future follow-up.
Down Charge: A downward chop with one of LAMBDA's giant hands, can spike at the ledge, it is LAMBDA's quickest charge attack making it the safest to use.
Up Charge: A fire coated hop done by jet-propelled feet, the collision sends opponents upwards.


Up Special:
Pyro Jet
In a jet-propelled flight maneuver, you have limited fuel and are vulnerable to attacks while flying, but you have good control and height. The fires bellowing underneath LAMBDA can be used to damage opponents.

Up Hyper:
Pyro Beam
A laser from the mouth that cuts through the stage like butter and can be aimed slightly is very unstable and damages LAMBDA after the recoil.

Neutral Special:
Gravity Knuckle
A launchable fist attack that destroys projectiles but if can be deflected back at LAMBDA for double damage.

Neutral Hyper:
Gravity Grasp
Same attack as before, but now it can grab the opponents and be used as a tether recovery.

Side Special:
LAMBDAcide Burning Dragon
The classic "grab the target and perform a leaping command grab, potentially to your death" move, however you can attack in the middle of the move to launch foes forward.

Side Hyper:
Hyper Ultradeath LAMBDAcide Burning Meteor
When performing this attack, LAMBDA has the ability to aim the exact angle from which the opponent is launch, to compensate for this powerful effect you have a lot of end-lag if it misses.

Down Special:
Shine Buster
A reflector that reflects all projectiles back can also pause LAMBDA in the air for a bit upon use. If you collide with an opponent, they get launched forward, unlike the upward launch of EPSILON's Shine Buster.

Down Hyper:
Shine Comet
LAMBDA tosses the Shine forward, tripping anyone who gets hit by the move; however, the end-lag is quite punishable.

Hypermax Attacks:

Level 1:
Pin Beam
A VERY thin beam shoots from LAMBDA's mouth, impaling those who get hit point blank range, acts more as a combo starter than a kill move due to its weaker power but high stun.

Level 2:
Blazing Penetrator
A command grab that has very short range but if connects deals the highest damage of any Level 2 Hypermax Attacks. However the energy used in this attack will cause LAMBDA to gain recoil if it misses.

Level 3:
Super Nitro Krasher
LAMBDA gains super-armor, increased speed, and increased launching power for 6 seconds, takes the least amount of meter of any Level 3 Hypermax Attack.

How does this reword look, I tried making LAMBDA essentially Ganondorf but good, with strong normals, actually good range, and reliable recovery. The weak LAMBDA has is the combo of slow walking and speedy dashing along with the fastest fall speed in the game, gives them some spastic movement, but one that has surprising mobility.

 

[Kirbeh]

wip lambda/epsilon design

Spoiler: large image