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Sigma Busters (Name Pending): Official Discussion Thread

Kirbeh

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Also forgot to add the other controls. The original post wasn't meant to be a full set of control mapping, it was solely focused on presenting the additional meter mechanics. Since you're asking though:

Left Stick = Move
Right Stick = Tilts or Charge Attacks (up to the player via control customization)
A = Attack
B = Special
X/Y = Jump (one can be a dedicated short hop button, once again, up to the player via customization)
L = Shield/Dodge
R = Meter
ZR = Grab
ZL = Free Space (can be customized to be any action of the players preference)
+ = Taunt
- = Pause
 

Glubbfubb

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The Shield Push is based on push blocking/advancing guard.

While blocking, you press buttons to literally push the opponent away from you. It's a defensive tool in games like Marvel vs Capcom.

Like the traditional FG counterpart, Shield Push would require you to be in block stun to actually activate. You're not going to be using the Shield Push from a distance like when trying to get in with a Wavedash, and again, you only get access to the Shield Push if you're already being attacked, so there's no risking of doing one when trying for the other.

As for actual cost, I did actually forget that you wanted to break the meter into segments. In that case, I would say Shield Push, Wavedash and Hyper Specials cost 1, Air Escape costs 2.

I do have to ask how exactly you plan to work in Hypermax moves into this system. I'd honestly say, giving Hypermaxes a dedicated super meter might be for the best too. A six-stock meter with a base cost of 1 per action seems pretty low, especially when players are going to want to make good use of those extra tools.

Old video, but good, basic explanation of advancing guard/push block in vanilla MvC3.

Good info on push blocking. I think for my system there will be a risk reward, if you activate meter the moment they attack your sheild, then you'll push and stun them, but if you waste meter you get stunned and become vulnerable, so this tactic should be used for some hard reads, how does that sound?

Regarding the Hypermax issue, my original idea for Hypermax Attacks was that you have a selection of 3 and you choose 1 in game, and then you can use that Hypermax Attack when your entire meter is filled, would that work better, don't want to have too many meters. I feel that like Third Strike certain Hypermaxes have certain segments of meter you need to fill before using them, so there could be some strategic play to the system as well.
 

Glubbfubb

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In the case of general movement, i'm programming the ground movement to focus more on precision and smoothness, there is more emphasis placed on the tilt of the stick adjusting your walking speed. Therefore, this game necessitates smoother transitions from walking to running, focusing on consistency and precision. Is that a good idea to follow?
 

Kirbeh

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Good info on push blocking. I think for my system there will be a risk reward, if you activate meter the moment they attack your sheild, then you'll push and stun them, but if you waste meter you get stunned and become vulnerable, so this tactic should be used for some hard reads, how does that sound?
I have concerns that something like that might be too volatile. Push blocking is a defensive tool for creating breathing room.

What you're describing here is basically a parry that also stuns.

Conversely, the punishment for mistiming a parry is getting hit and, in most cases, allowing the opponent to get a full combo on you. Adding a stun seems unnecessary.

Regarding the Hypermax issue, my original idea for Hypermax Attacks was that you have a selection of 3 and you choose 1 in game, and then you can use that Hypermax Attack when your entire meter is filled, would that work better, don't want to have too many meters. I feel that like Third Strike certain Hypermaxes have certain segments of meter you need to fill before using them, so there could be some strategic play to the system as well.
While I enjoy Third Strike, I much prefer when games give you full access to all supers. The dynamic of being able to use different supers for different set ups and situations is imo more conducive to player expression and creative plays than being locked down to just one where your options then become much more limited.

I would still recommend the separate Hypermax meter regardless, I think you underestimate how frequently players will make use of things like wavedashing. Those 6 segments will drain very quickly.

The closest comparison I can make would be Street fighter 6's Drive System. Because EX moves, Drive Rush, Drive Impact and Drive Reversal are all tied to the same resource it drains pretty quickly. Actual supers get their own meter as otherwise there'd never be an actual opportunity to build towards them since the other tools are too valuable to not use.
 
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Glubbfubb

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I have concerns that something like that might be too volatile. Push blocking is a defensive tool for creating breathing room.

What you're describing here is basically a parry that also stuns.

Conversely, the punishment for mistiming a parry is getting hit and, in most cases, allowing the opponent to get a full combo on you. Adding a stun seems unnecessary.


While I enjoy Third Strike, I much prefer when games give you full access to all supers. The dynamic of being able to use different supers for different set ups and situations is imo more conducive to player expression and creative plays than being locked down to just one where your options then become much more limited.

I would still recommend the separate Hypermax meter regardless, I think you underestimate how frequently players will make use of things like wavedashing. Those 6 segments will drain very quickly.

The closest comparison I can make would be Street fighter 6's Drive System. Because EX moves, Drive Rush, Drive Impact and Drive Reversal are all tied to the same resource it drains pretty quickly. Actual supers get their own meter as otherwise there'd never be an actual opportunity to build towards them since the other tools are too valuable to not use.
Can you elaborate on the Drive System mechanic, my main issue with using more than one meter is that I need to determine how you fill each, I feel that having 2 meters filled the same way could make them redundant.
 
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Kirbeh

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Can you elaborate on the Drive System mechanic, my main issue with using more than one meter is that I need to determine how you fill each, I feel that having 2 meters filled the same way could make them redundant.
In SF6, the Super Meter builds as you'd expect, landing attacks builds meter.

The Drive Gauge is full at the start of a match and drains as you use its associated techniques. The gauge will regenerate on its own over time except during blockstun and hitstun.
 

Glubbfubb

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In SF6, the Super Meter builds as you'd expect, landing attacks builds meter.

The Drive Gauge is full at the start of a match and drains as you use its associated techniques. The gauge will regenerate on its own over time, except during blockstun and hitstun.
Hmm in that case, would it be better to type Hypermaxes to the Super Meter equivalent and Hyper Specials/all the other meter-based abilities to the Drive Meter equivalent. I can picture that the Drive Meter could be 3 bars, and you can do an enhanced special by going up all three bars; however, other maneuvers like enhanced shields and wavedashing consume a meter of Drive, so its essentially a stamina meter. You could even go under stamina if you overexert yourself, meaning you won't be able to shield or dodge. This can give you some extra strategy if you want to save your stamina for enhancing your special attacks, or spending some early to use some potent defensive maneuvers. How does that sound?
 
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Kirbeh

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In the case of general movement, i'm programming the ground movement to focus more on precision and smoothness, there is more emphasis placed on the tilt of the stick adjusting your walking speed. Therefore, this game necessitates smoother transitions from walking to running, focusing on consistency and precision. Is that a good idea to follow?
Okay, but why?

How does this serve the gameplay exactly? What makes this so different from the walking stages of something like Smash?

If simply walking is more precise, doesn't this make it less consistent given the higher sensitivity and degree of variance? Wouldn't this lower the game's accessibility? And again, I ask, what gameplay purpose does this actually serve? Platfighters (and fighting games in general) already require higher precision at higher levels of play, so what exactly is this supposed to add?
 

Glubbfubb

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Okay, but why?

How does this serve the gameplay exactly? What makes this so different from the walking stages of something like Smash?

If simply walking is more precise, doesn't this make it less consistent given the higher sensitivity and degree of variance? Wouldn't this lower the game's accessibility? And again, I ask, what gameplay purpose does this actually serve? Platfighters (and fighting games in general) already require higher precision at higher levels of play, so what exactly is this supposed to add?
I guess its one of those things that better explained when you play it rather than talk about it, unless if you want for me to go a huge diatribe about how i code the game. I was just trying to say walking feels a bit different from what your used too, and i didn't have another good word to describe it.
 
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Kirbeh

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Hmm in that case, would it be better to type Hypermaxes to the Super Meter equivalent and Hyper Specials/all the other meter-based abilities to the Drive Meter equivalent. I can picture that the Drive Meter could be 3 bars, and you can do an enhanced special by going up all three bars; however, other maneuvers like enhanced shields and wavedashing consume a meter of Drive, so its essentially a stamina meter. You could even go under stamina if you overexert yourself, meaning you won't be able to shield or dodge. This can give you some extra strategy if you want to save your stamina for enhancing your special attacks, or spending some early to use some potent defensive maneuvers. How does that sound?
Correct, the Drive Guage serves as stamina for the various moves you can spend it on. And SF6 does actually do a similar penalty to what you're adding there. If you run out of Drive Gauge, you enter Burnout at which point you can't perform those functions and are at risk of getting stunned if you get hit into a wall.

I would still say to keep the one in Sigma Busters at 6 points because again players will use it up at a much quicker pace than you might be expecting. Though I suppose you could up the cost of EX moves to 2 points and make the Air Escape 3 points to compensate.
 

Glubbfubb

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Correct, the Drive Guage serves as stamina for the various moves you can spend it on. And SF6 does actually do a similar penalty to what you're adding there. If you run out of Drive Gauge, you enter Burnout at which point you can't perform those functions and are at risk of getting stunned if you get hit into a wall.

I would still say to keep the one in Sigma Busters at 6 points because again players will use it up at a much quicker pace than you might be expecting. Though I suppose you could up the cost of EX moves to 2 points and make the Air Escape 3 points to compensate.
Yeah, Hyper Specials cost 2 meter segments, Hyper Dodges (I decided to renamed Air Escapes to have consistent naming across all meter abilities) cost 3 segments, while Hyper Parries and Hyper Dashes (Push Blocks and Wavedashing respectivly), cost 1 each. The Hyper Gauge used for Hypermax Attacks meanwhile has three segments, one for each level of Hypermax attack.

Now the Drive-esc meter I have potential names for, Adrenaline and Stamina, which sounds better to you. Adrenaline sounds more cooler, though I wonder if thats too similar in naming to Guilty Gear's Tension Meter.
 

Kirbeh

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I guess its one of those things that better explained when you play it rather than talk about it, unless if you want for me to go a huge diatribe about how i code the game. I was just trying to say walking feels a bit different from what your used too, and i didn't have another good word to describe it.
It's definitely something that's probably better understood from actual playtesting, but it still begs the question of how and why?

As best you can, I would appreciate if you do try to explain what exactly it is that you're making different for walking.

And second is why? What is the end goal of making the action of walking in that particular way?

The basic movement is something that needs to be easy to do and feel good to control. I'm only concerned because thus far the way you've been describing it makes it seem like you're hyper fixating on adding complexity to certain actions. In moderation this is fine, and for higher levels of play, I expect there to be some more demanding techniques.

Walking though? I'm just having difficulty trying to figure out what exactly you're trying to add to it.
 

Kirbeh

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Yeah, Hyper Specials cost 2 meter segments, Hyper Dodges (I decided to renamed Air Escapes to have consistent naming across all meter abilities) cost 3 segments, while Hyper Parries and Hyper Dashes (Push Blocks and Wavedashing respectivly), cost 1 each. The Hyper Gauge used for Hypermax Attacks meanwhile has three segments, one for each level of Hypermax attack.

Now the Drive-esc meter I have potential names for, Adrenaline and Stamina, which sounds better to you. Adrenaline sounds more cooler, though I wonder if thats too similar in naming to Guilty Gear's Tension Meter.
Stamina is a pretty safe and properly descriptive name. If we need to, we can always fall back on that.

Adrenaline could work too, don't really see the concern/connection to GG.
 

Glubbfubb

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It's definitely something that's probably better understood from actual playtesting, but it still begs the question of how and why?

As best you can, I would appreciate if you do try to explain what exactly it is that you're making different for walking.

And second is why? What is the end goal of making the action of walking in that particular way?

The basic movement is something that needs to be easy to do and feel good to control. I'm only concerned because thus far the way you've been describing it makes it seem like you're hyper fixating on adding complexity to certain actions. In moderation this is fine, and for higher levels of play, I expect there to be some more demanding techniques.

Walking though? I'm just having difficulty trying to figure out what exactly you're trying to add to it.
When testing these new systems, ground movement felt off, so I am just adjusting it to make the game feel better to control, It's really that simple really. It's not like i'm cutting the essentials, you still can walk and run, you can still have multiple jumps, you still crouch, just things will feel a bit different. The main change is just making walking and running more gradual, ie making the transition from walking and running smoother. You still have the same physics when walking, but compared to smash you have more accuracy on slowing down while still walking. Running is mostly the same too, minus the slight burst at the beginning; otherwise, it's basically the same. That's just the current changes at the moment, my brother tested out the walking and he said it was fine, so it's not that much detracting. Again, subject to change of course, and it is better to explain through playing rather than just talking about it.
 

Kirbeh

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When testing these new systems, ground movement felt off, so I am just adjusting it to make the game feel better to control, It's really that simple really. It's not like i'm cutting the essentials, you still can walk and run, you can still have multiple jumps, you still crouch, just things will feel a bit different. The main change is just making walking and running more gradual, ie making the transition from walking and running smoother. You still have the same physics when walking, but compared to smash you have more accuracy on slowing down while still walking. Running is mostly the same too, minus the slight burst at the beginning; otherwise, it's basically the same. That's just the current changes at the moment, my brother tested out the walking and he said it was fine, so it's not that much detracting. Again, subject to change of course, and it is better to explain through playing rather than just talking about it.
So basically, there was no actual significant functional change? You're just fine tuning the walking/run speeds...

Another misunderstanding from a poor explanation. :drflip::dr-_-:

:drshrug: Well that's cleared up, I guess.

I have another shift in 4 hours, so I'm off to bed. Good night.
1718079602298.png
 

Glubbfubb

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So basically, there was no actual significant functional change? You're just fine tuning the walking/run speeds...

Another misunderstanding from a poor explanation. :drflip::dr-_-:

:drshrug: Well that's cleared up, I guess.

I have another shift in 4 hours, so I'm off to bed. Good night.
View attachment 390895
Gnight, after I am done with working on the jump jank, I can actually work on some attacks.
 

Glubbfubb

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I think the Drive esc meter will actually be called the Guts Meter, sounds cooler, imo.

So here is my take on the meters.

You have two meters, the Hyper Meter and Guts Meter. The Guts Meter fills automatically and could be seen as a stamina meter, allowing you to to perform several different functions. The Guts Meter fills up to 4 segments. Using 1 segment allows you to Hyper Dash, giving you the ability to both gain quick burst movement and evade certain attacks on the ground. Using 2 segments allows you to Hyper Parry, basically risking uncovering your sheild at the exact moment to push back incoming attacks. Using 3 segments lets you Hyper Drift, which is a more potent directional air dodge that also acts as an airdash, allowing for better aerial defensive play and recovery. Finally, when all 4 segments are filled you can perform a Hyper Special, which is an enhanced version of the base special move, each of the 4 specials has a hyper equivalent and can either improve the move or give the move new properties giving both new niches. Be careful, using an ability that uses more Guts than you have will cause you to suffer a Hyper Crash, where you get stunned in place from exhaustion, leaving you vulnerable to incoming attacks, meaning you have to be careful about Guts Meter usage.

When you give out and receive damage, you will fill up a separate meter called the Hyper Meter. This meter fills up to 3 levels, and when certain thresholds are filled, you can use the meter for a Hypermax Attack, which are each character's most potent selection of moves. Hypermax Attacks can either be strong attacks, powerful defensive plays, or potent status effects, every character has their own trio of Hypermax Attacks. When you use a Hypermax Attack your entire meter will empty, meaning you have to make a choice about using a weaker but more practical Hypermax Attack, or save up your meter for that powerful finishing move. This gives the mechanics some potent strategic play.

As for what these will look like, for the Guts Meter I imagine it will start like a normal enough looking meter, at first resembling a red thermometer, but as you fill more stamina the bulbous end of the meter becomes more and more like a cross vein, until the meter fills and steams pours out with a big GUTS flashing on the meter (compelte with a bell ringing ala Little Mac's KO Meter), indicating its full power. The Hyper Meter on the other hand is more electrical, starting out gray and dull until you put some energy into it, when you reach level 1 the meter becomes blue, then at level 2 it becomes gold, then finally at level 3 it flashes rainbows, each level causing the meter to crackle with more electricity.

Cyber-DJ Cyber-DJ and Kirbeh Kirbeh how do these ideas sound to you, I think I finally finalized the systems, thanks to you two.
 
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Glubbfubb

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Kirbeh Kirbeh Cyber-DJ Cyber-DJ I GOT JUMPING TO WORK, THATS RIGHT I GOT JUMPING TO WORK, IT NO LONGER FREEZES THE GAME

Now Kirbeh there is an issue now that some errors are hard to track due to a lack of animations, turns out it's to tell if some states are jabky if all you have is a blue square, so when your done with your curreny work, can you design some sprite frames of Aremi doing basic movement, ie idling, jumpsquats, jumping, walking, running, etc. Nothing major yet, but just stuff to better help me track my character's functions and see if they work correctly.

Also it should be noted that characters in the air have different posing based if they dispended their double jump or not, don't know if you want to implement that btw.
 

Cyber-DJ

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Different posing for when they used their double jump or not feels almost unnecesary in my eyes. Unless one of the characters has some kind of gimmick with their jumps, i'd recommend not working on this, or at least not right now
 

Glubbfubb

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Different posing for when they used their double jump or not feels almost unnecesary in my eyes. Unless one of the characters has some kind of gimmick with their jumps, i'd recommend not working on this, or at least not right now
Well in Smash characters change poses slightly when they used all of their double jumps, this is not necessary, but it is authentic feeling.
 

Cyber-DJ

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Well in Smash characters change poses slightly when they used all of their double jumps, this is not necessary, but it is authentic feeling.
Of course, but maybe it's better for you and and Kirbeh to focus on the core of the game before touching on these little details like these
 

Glubbfubb

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DEV UPDATE:
Basic physics is 80% complete, all I have to fix is the jumping, patching out all the remaining jank, implement a limit on how much you can jump in the air, and fix some glitches where if I move the wrong way while jumping ill freeze in the air and gain infinite jumps. Ground movement is good, and polished the walking, running, and dashing. Once air physics are patched out I'll focus on the good stuff like attacks and advanced movement options. I've been gaining more progress the past week than I have the last 3 months.
 
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Kirbeh

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I think the Drive esc meter will actually be called the Guts Meter, sounds cooler, imo.

Finally, when all 4 segments are filled you can perform a Hyper Special, which is an enhanced version of the base special move, each of the 4 specials has a hyper equivalent and can either improve the move or give the move new properties giving both new niches.
I do have to ask, why do Hyper Specials cost all 4 segments? Seems like a pretty high cost for no real reason. If you look at EX moves in any other game, it's usually just a single bar of whatever meter they have for it. Especially with the whole bar being lowered from 6 to 4 segments, this seems especially costly.

I'd recommend going back up to 6 segments and having Hyper Specials and Hyper Drift cost 2. Hyper Dash and Parry can just cost 1.

Alternatively, get rid of the Guts Meter entirely and use a cooldown system for each action (or perhaps even go as far as limit each action to once per match? Though that's even more restrictive that what you currently have so maybe not.)
Be careful, using an ability that uses more Guts than you have will cause you to suffer a Hyper Crash, where you get stunned in place from exhaustion, leaving you vulnerable to incoming attacks, meaning you have to be careful about Guts Meter usage.
This I'll have to contest as well. Getting outright stunned feels like too harsh a penalty imo. If you're adopting a similar system to SF6's Drive, I think a similar penalty would work better. Completely draining the gauge should incur a risk, not arguing against that, but if doing so just stuns you, there's not really any risk/reward going on there. It's just a matter of never using/discouraging use of the Guts Meter at that point.

I would say a debuff state like Burnout would work better here.

You can empty your Guts Meter completely (or even go into a negative if you use a 2-point action) but you'd enter a debuff state for a short period (at 0) or for a bit longer (if you risked a 2 point while at 1 point left.) This opens the opportunity for some risky plays, but with the consequence of being at a bigger disadvantage if you fumble it and without taking control away from the player like a stun would.

As for what these will look like, for the Guts Meter I imagine it will start like a normal enough looking meter, at first resembling a red thermometer, but as you fill more stamina the bulbous end of the meter becomes more and more like a cross vein, until the meter fills and steams pours out with a big GUTS flashing on the meter (compelte with a bell ringing ala Little Mac's KO Meter), indicating its full power. The Hyper Meter on the other hand is more electrical, starting out gray and dull until you put some energy into it, when you reach level 1 the meter becomes blue, then at level 2 it becomes gold, then finally at level 3 it flashes rainbows, each level causing the meter to crackle with more electricity.
Hyper Meter idea seems fine, but I'm not a fan of the visuals on the Guts Meter. Feels odd to give the utility meter all this extra visual flair, especially for the full version when it's going to spend most of a match partially depleted.

Well in Smash characters change poses slightly when they used all of their double jumps, this is not necessary, but it is authentic feeling.
Honestly never noticed that, though I do second what Cyber said. It's an extra visual flourish that most players aren't likely to notice and only increases the animation workload without any meaningful return.
 
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Glubbfubb

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I do have to ask, why do Hyper Specials cost all 4 segments? Seems like a pretty high cost for no real reason. If you look at EX moves in any other game, it's usually just a single bar of whatever meter they have for it. Especially with the whole bar being lowered from 6 to 4 segments, this seems especially costly.

I'd recommend going back up to 6 segments and having Hyper Specials and Hyper Drift cost 2. Hyper Dash and Parry can just cost 1.

Alternatively, get rid of the Guts Meter entirely and use a cooldown system for each action (or perhaps even go as far as limit each action to once per match? Though that's even more restrictive that what you currently have so maybe not.)

This I'll have to contest as well. Getting outright stunned feels like too harsh a penalty imo. If you're adopting a similar system to SF6's Drive, I think a similar penalty would work better. Completely draining the gauge should incur a risk, not arguing against that, but if doing so just stuns you, there's not really any risk/reward going on there. It's just a matter of never using/discouraging use of the Guts Meter at that point.

I would say a debuff state like Burnout would work better here.

You can empty your Guts Meter completely (or even go into a negative if you use a 2-point action) but you'd enter a debuff state for a short period (at 0) or for a bit longer (if you risked a 2 point while at 1 point left.) This opens the opportunity for some risky plays, but with the consequence of being at a bigger disadvantage if you fumble it and without taking control away from the player like a stun would.


Hyper Meter idea seems fine, but I'm not a fan of the visuals on the Guts Meter. Feels odd to give the utility meter all this extra visual flair, especially for the full version when it's going to spend most of a match partially depleted.


Honestly never noticed that, though I do second what Cyber said. It's an extra visual flourish that most players aren't likely to notice and only increases the animation workload without any meaningful return.
My other idea for a Guts Meter penalty is that the character overexerts themselves, meaning their attacks become weaker, and they take more knockback until the meter deficit fills completely back up. Does that sound good.
 

Glubbfubb

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Kirbeh Kirbeh I don't know if you understand the technical talk, but a jump stat of 400 is enough to go over the side platforms of my Battlefield expy. Would you say that is an excellent jump or an average jump to you?
 
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Kirbeh

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Kirbeh Kirbeh I don't know if you understand the technical talk, but a jump stat of 400 is enough to go over the side platforms of my Battlefield expy. Would you say that is an excellent jump or an average jump to you?
I would say that's an average jump. Most characters in Smash can land on the side platforms of BF with their initial jump. I would consider a high or exceptional jump to be something closer to Falco, who can land on the top platform with his base jump.

He's the extreme of course, so I would say a character that can at least touch (but not land on) the top platform would be a character with a high jump.

My other idea for a Guts Meter penalty is that the character overexerts themselves, meaning their attacks become weaker, and they take more knockback until the meter deficit fills completely back up. Does that sound good.
Yeah, I think that works better.
 
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Glubbfubb

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I would say that's an average jump. Most characters in Smash can land on the side platforms of BF with their initial jump. I would consider a high or exceptional jump to be something closer to Falco, who can land on the top platform with his base jump.

He's the extreme of course, so I suppose, I would say a character that at least touch (but not land on) the top platform would be a character with a high jump.


Yeah, I think that works better.
Okay then, so I guess 400 is the baseline for average jumps, Aremi has 400 for her fullhop, fitting for her mostly average states.

Any way I can flesh out the Guts Meter with that penalty idea I had.

ALSO JUMPS ARE WORKING, NO MORE AIR JANK, NO MORE AIR JANK.
 

Glubbfubb

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After these many trials and tribulations, here are the functions I have so far

Walking
Running
Turning
Crouching
Jump+Double Jumps
Short Hops
Full Hops
Jumpsquat
Fast Falling
Landing
Wavedashing
Drop Down (That thing you do when you're on top of a semisolid, and you press crouch to phase through the platform, but then the semisolid under you becomes solid again... ANYWAYS that has its own animation btw, though based on how hard it is to track individual semisolid layers as conditions to activate certain functions that may not be necessary.)

I consider these the essential movement options, and they are all done, now I don't know what to do next, should I do attacks or should I do technical stuff like the meters or a character select menu? These functions are free to be animated, BTW, just so you know.

The notable exclusion is dashing, that is because I felt the ground movement was quite smooth and nice feeling, and I don't think a sudden burst of momentum can mesh well with such a feeling, hence the potential cut.

I want to say thank you to everyone, for your patience. All your waiting for progress on my trials and tribulations is all appreciated.
 
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Glubbfubb

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Kirbeh Kirbeh I just realized something, for Back Tilts to work they HAVE to be tied to the right stick, since it's physically impossible to attack behind with a different attack if you use the buttons, since that'll just make it a Forward Tilt from behind. If I use the right stick however, I can better tie back tilts since you can tilt the direction to the opposite direction your direction. On one hand, this is more in line with how competitive players configure the controls (Tilts on stick, Charge attacks with buttons), but I acknowledge that this can limit controller customizability. I don't KNOW if that is a bad thing in this case; again, it's a common control scheme, but it could make the controls from the outsider looking in seem weird. Don't know what else to say on the matter, that is just the way it is.

Anyway, yeah, when you get the chance, I think I am at the point where I can comfortably animate my first fighter, Aremi, so when you get the chance, can you do some sketches of her that I can use in the game, these are the following states that have unique animations.

Idle
Walk
Run
Turning while running
Crouch
Hyperdash
Jumpsquat
Air
Double Jump
Airdodge
Landing
(This animation comprises both the animation for landing on the ground AND landing after ending a Hyperdash)

When I get those animations straitened out, I'll move on to attacks, I say this since once I have some animations I was going to map out some potential hitboxes for each attack to ask how they look. We are moving on up, and once we get Aremi done, other characters will go by MUCH quicker.
 

Kirbeh

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Kirbeh Kirbeh I just realized something, for Back Tilts to work they HAVE to be tied to the right stick, since it's physically impossible to attack behind with a different attack if you use the buttons, since that'll just make it a Forward Tilt from behind. If I use the right stick however, I can better tie back tilts since you can tilt the direction to the opposite direction your direction. On one hand, this is more in line with how competitive players configure the controls (Tilts on stick, Charge attacks with buttons), but I acknowledge that this can limit controller customizability. I don't KNOW if that is a bad thing in this case; again, it's a common control scheme, but it could make the controls from the outsider looking in seem weird. Don't know what else to say on the matter, that is just the way it is.
It's not impossible, just requires a bit of tweaking to movement.

Rather than outright turning your character around, you could lightly pull the stick back to walk backward, while pushing it all the way will turn you around (and holding it will enter a run). This is similar to how Smash handles the FG characters. So, Back Tilts would be useable by using a light tilt, while a full tilt turns you around.

Given the more situational use of Back Tilts, you could also go the beat 'em up route.

Streets of Rage for example has Back Attacks that allow you to interrupt your own attacks with a quick backward strike to deal with enemies approaching you from behind. So, in this case, Back Tilts would only be accessed via canceling from another tilt or neutral attack.

Anyway, yeah, when you get the chance, I think I am at the point where I can comfortably animate my first fighter, Aremi, so when you get the chance, can you do some sketches of her that I can use in the game, these are the following states that have unique animations.
Sure, it's going to take some time though. It'll likely have to be in small batches on my days off from work.

We are moving on up, and once we get Aremi done, other characters will go by MUCH quicker.
Don't count on it.

My end of the workload is still drawing everything frame by frame on increasingly more complex characters, so that's always going to be slow. On your end, you've got character balancing and further bug fixing as they pop up. Both of which will only get more difficult as more characters get added.
 

Glubbfubb

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It's not impossible, just requires a bit of tweaking to movement.

Rather than outright turning your character around, you could lightly pull the stick back to walk backward, while pushing it all the way will turn you around (and holding it will enter a run). This is similar to how Smash handles the FG characters. So, Back Tilts would be useable by using a light tilt, while a full tilt turns you around.

Given the more situational use of Back Tilts, you could also go the beat 'em up route.

Streets of Rage for example has Back Attacks that allow you to interrupt your own attacks with a quick backward strike to deal with enemies approaching you from behind. So, in this case, Back Tilts would only be accessed via canceling from another tilt or neutral attack.


Sure, it's going to take some time though. It'll likely have to be in small batches on my days off from work.


Don't count on it.

My end of the workload is still drawing everything frame by frame on increasingly more complex characters, so that's always going to be slow. On your end, you've got character balancing and further bug fixing as they pop up. Both of which will only get more difficult as more characters get added.
Good comments, once I implement the default tilt controls, i'll look into other control schemes, and again I was going to post my intentions for how each attack's hitbox and frame data. There are still some challenges, but I feel like once I get my first character done I'll have more comfort making new ones.
 

Glubbfubb

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Welp I've been dreading this step for a while now... Time to make hitboxes, hurtboxes, and all non-player collisions... god help me, prepare for some potential procrastination, though that may be for the best since I worked nonstop on the code for the past week. May or may not take a break tomorrow and code the next day, besides I have other ideas to share.
 
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Glubbfubb

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Name - Verm
Gender - Male
Species - Pasum
Origin -
Verm is a person not defined by his haves but his have-nots, he is awkward, has issues with asthma, a noticeable lisp, and is so insomniac every hour is like 12 AM to him. That's probably what you get when your raised in a planet whose position in the galaxy makes the people underneath go though an eternal night each and every day, that's the Pasums on the planet Marsus for you. The question is then, why is he, of all people, essentially the assistant to the hyperactive Kalin, well that is because they essentially fill each other's holes. Kalin may go all in with her signature knack for crazy experiments, but someone needs to be there to support her dreams. Likewise Verm has his own issues with self-esteem and self-confidence, and Kalin's plucky personality helps him get out his funk. The two work well as partners... not in the romantic sort of way of course... I mean even they know that no matter the drive, no force can go against the destructive phenomenon that is shipping wars. Anyhow, Verm is also a helpful asset to Kalin, since his species is one of the few places where Stygian, a rare mineral said to be an anti-energy, is found, albeit in small quantities. Kalin and Verm hope to collect this mineral in order to create a perpetual energy machine, a highly powerful but extremely volitile device capable of converting dark matter into pure electricity to power an infinite supply of machines.

Appearance - Verm takes the character design angle of creepy and captivating. He is a humanoid resembling an opossum with mainly dark gray fur. You can clearly see he is not the best in the physical hygiene department, having a hunched posture, sunken eyes, and uneven frontal fangs. However, his meek and soft-spoken demeanor makes him have some endearing traits. His most notable traits are his atire, a tattered, olive-green cloak with a hood, and his weapon, a staff. This staff, which he called Krem after his later grandfather, is made of what resembles gnarled oak, has a noticeable spiral structure, and is tipped with an orb of roughly carved Stygian, a shadowy purple mineral that radiates a dark aura. In his cloak is various vials, ranging from his daily asthma medication, a bottle of drinking water, to some chemicals of the toxic variety, made by Kalin herself as "emergency weapons," whatever that means to her. On his forearms are noticeable purple spines, an evolutionary mutation of his species brought upon from the Stygian's radiation, that can be retracted and retracted based on Verm's mood, becoming more pronounced the more angry or stressed he becomes.

Archetype - Punisher
Gimmick - Shadowy Leap -
Verm's jump is noticeably floaty compared to other characters.
Intended Strengths -
  • A potent punish-heavy kit focuses on damage over time, status effects, and crippling the opponent in unconventional ways.
  • Has jumps that can go super far, rather than super high, meaning he has a unique combo game.
  • Traps and set-ups makes him difficult to reach at times, making him a potent defensive fighter.

Intended Weaknesses -
  • Below average weight and low jump height makes him volitile in disadvantage.
  • Can have difficulty getting in at times.
  • While his melee attacks are quick, they also tend to be weak in power and knockback.

Planned Stats: (Give a letter grade from E- to A+)
Walk Speed - B-
Running Speed -B-
Traction - B+
Jump Height - C+
Air Acceleration - A
Fall Speed - C+
Weight - C-

Ground Moves:
Jab - Micro Pulse -
Taking Krem, Verm pulse weak bursts of dark energy forward. The first hit is stronger, but succeeding hit are faster to come out.
Forward Tilt - Staff Bonk - A quick spinning swing made with Krem like a propeller. A quick multi-hit that can be set-up into combos.
Up Tilt - Shadow Burst - A tiny spread shot of shadow magic arches over Krem, its weak power but high knockback make it a good overhead keep-away tool at low percents and a kill move at high percents.
Down Tilt - Staff Spike - Verm stakes Krem into the ground, trying to attack anyone in the shins, a move with stubby range but can trip opponents if it connects.
Back Tilt - Shadow Block - A defensive Back Tilt that spawns a shadow barrier, the barrier itself is weak but provides a good windbox to push opponents away, its high end-lag makes it not spammable.
Dash Attack - Night Spinner - Taking Krem, Verm spins in midair in a corkscrew formation, dealing multiple hits of small damage before ending with a powerful final launch.

Charge Attacks:
Side Charge - Necro Burst -
Krem charges a ball of dark matter that grows the more he charges the move, before unleashing it as a burst of dark energy.
Up Charge - Crescent Rays - Krem charges upward for a volly of close-nit shadow balls, has among the longest ranges for a move of its type.
Down Charge - Dark Beam - Summons two dark beams from sky to attack both sides, the direction Krem is facing gets a more potent beam but the one behind him gives more knockback.

Aerials:
Neutral Air - Dark Matter Spin -
Krem spins around with a small dark matter tornado, good for a combo tool when he hits with the center and keepaway option when he hits with the edges.
Forward Air - Black Strike - A thrust forward with Krem, the tip radiating with a spark of energy, this spark explodes when collided in the right place, creating a potent pulse that can be a very rewarding move if connected in the right spot.
Up Air - Spark Spot - A delayed pulse of dark matter that sends foes upwards.
Down Air - Talon Trot - A stomp downwards with Verm's clawed heel, good for setting up a spike.
Back Air - Tail Snap - A triple flick performed with Verm's tail, a good combo-starter.

Grabs:
Pummel - Dark Bind -
A bind made of dark energy constricts the opponent, choking them and dealing damage.
Forward Throw - Bind Burst - The bind breaks, launching the foe forwards, the throw itself is weak, but its high knockback makes it a good kill throw.
Down Throw - Piercing Darkness - A thin black beam falls from the sky and stuns the foe, leaving them in place for follow up combos.
Back Throw - Tail Toss - Using his prehensile tail, Verm tosses the foe backwards.
Up Throw - Magic Spark - A burst of dark energy rockets the foe upwards, dealing shadowy damage.

Specials:
Neutral Special - Specter Ball -
A strange dark projectile that can be charged. At the lowest charge, it is very weak and deals little knockback, but it has a strong homing ability. When charged, its homing capabilities become worse, but its damage becomes more pronounced.
  • Neutral Hyper - Matter Beam - A dark laser gets shot straight forward, has an extremely long range, can pierce through walls, and when hit causes the opponent to become tainted with a strange purple tint, making them slower and floatier, therefore easier to hit.
Side Special - Black Mist - A cloud of purple mist gets shot out of Krem, becoming a lingering hazard, anyone caught in the cloud will become tainted, which as previously stated makes them slower and floatier. This move is purely used as a support move to trap opponents for follow up attacks. Don't spam the move, as the more the move is used consecutively, the less mist gets conjured.
  • Side Hyper - Decaying Mist - A green cloud of mist gets conjured, anyone in the mist will be dealt many hits of small damage due to a potent poison.
Down Special - Toxic Flask - When used on the ground a flask of green toxins get tosses onto the ground, leaving a lime green acid puddle. When used in the air he instead tosses the vial straight down underneath him. Anyone who touches the puddle will be poisoned, dealing small damage over time. A maximum of two puddles can be produced, which eventually get evaporated when they last too long.
  • Down Hyper - Gunk Bomb - A heavy green slime ball gets produce which gets lobbed to the ground, dealing potent splash damage and leaving behind a larger acid puddle.
Up Special - Shadow Winds - Verm launches upwards with a dark leap, conjuring a shadowy cutter to attack anyone beneath him. This attack can be used up to three times, and the blades won't refresh until he lands on the ground. Notably, this doesn't send Verm into freefall, allowing him to perform other attacks if he runs out of Shadow Blades to use.
  • Up Hyper - Shadow Cyclone - A cluster of shadowy blades gets launched below, leaping Verm much higher than before. There is some give and take with this move, on one hand it goes much higher than the Shadow Winds, on the other hand, the Shadow Cyclone lacks the controllability of the Shadow Winds.
Hypermax Attacks -
Level 1 - Twisting Shadows -
An orb gets launched, releasing pulses. Anyone caught in the pulses will have their controls reversed.
Level 2 - Black Gate - Two portals get flung by Verm, causing an arching shadowy ball to get launched from one portal and head into the other, a potent stage control option.
Level 3 - Necro Rune - A revolving circle of dark spheres revolve around Verm, providing protection. When he uses an attack one of the balls get launched, magnifying the damage of the hit.

Was bored and burnt out for programming today, so I made a new concept to flesh out the whole darkness based fighter. The purpose Kirbeh Kirbeh was to flesh out Kalin with an assistant-type character, plus having a pair of ambigous will they won't they characters feel charming. This also fills the hole I felt was missing by having a darkness, poison, AND mage based character. I feel this is the most comprehensive kit I have made, with a very condensed and purposeful kit. One thing to note is that I feel like after Aremi and LAMBDA, I feel we should do fighters in any order and do the ones we have the most fleshed out ideas for. I feel that helps us both understand the character creation process since were not focused on a checklist and instead doing the stuff we both love. The reason I want Aremi and LAMBDA to be priorities is because the former is my "basic" character, therefore the easiest to design due to a lack of crazy gimmicks, which the latter has a large focus on command grabs which are important for later fighters.
 
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Glubbfubb

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Kirbeh Kirbeh I had an idea for a minor rework of LAMBDA's neutral special, Plasma Sphere, to make it more interesting:
Taking a bit of inspiration from PM's version of Bowser, the ball itself would be faster and have an explosive burst if it either collides with someone or reaches its maximum range, which ever comes first. However you have to wait for approximately 7 seconds for it to recharge, allowing you to use it again.

What makes it interesting is if you use the move during its recharge period, it becomes new moves called the Plasma Burst, which is a short range shot-gun styled burst of plasma forward, which very short range it has good knockback and decent power, meaning both moves have unique niches. Plasma Vortex works the same way, but the speed is rebalanced so that you can combo that into a fully charges Plasma Sphere. How does that sound to you?
 

Kirbeh

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Kirbeh Kirbeh I had an idea for a minor rework of LAMBDA's neutral special, Plasma Sphere, to make it more interesting:
Taking a bit of inspiration from PM's version of Bowser, the ball itself would be faster and have an explosive burst if it either collides with someone or reaches its maximum range, which ever comes first. However you have to wait for approximately 7 seconds for it to recharge, allowing you to use it again.

What makes it interesting is if you use the move during its recharge period, it becomes new moves called the Plasma Burst, which is a short range shot-gun styled burst of plasma forward, which very short range it has good knockback and decent power, meaning both moves have unique niches. Plasma Vortex works the same way, but the speed is rebalanced so that you can combo that into a fully charges Plasma Sphere. How does that sound to you?
I was confused for a sec because the last version of PM I played was the actual PM Dev team's 3.6 version. The change you're referring to was introduced in Project+

It does sound like an interesting idea, but my concern would be in the fact that you're making the recharge move actually pretty decent. I haven't actually played PM+, but from the footage I've looked up it doesn't seem to be all that useful a move.

The cooldown is the cost for the projectile being such a strong tool. The bite seems largely superfluous but doesn't take away from the brief disadvantage of the cooldown.

I do think it's worth experimenting with, though I would propose making it more of a speedy attack over a particularly strong one. Make it more of a defensive, "get off me" tool for opponents that bypass the projectile and get too close for LAMBA's other moves to come out fast enough.

You'll have to elaborate on the changes to Plasma Vortex. The last version we had was a stationary hitbox that drew opponents into it.

You also mention a charge on Plasma Sphere which wasn't present before.

Give me a rundown on what the new idea is, because overall, it's turning into a different move entirely based on what you've said so far.
 

Glubbfubb

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I was confused for a sec because the last version of PM I played was the actual PM Dev team's 3.6 version. The change you're referring to was introduced in Project+

It does sound like an interesting idea, but my concern would be in the fact that you're making the recharge move actually pretty decent. I haven't actually played PM+, but from the footage I've looked up it doesn't seem to be all that useful a move.

The cooldown is the cost for the projectile being such a strong tool. The bite seems largely superfluous but doesn't take away from the brief disadvantage of the cooldown.

I do think it's worth experimenting with, though I would propose making it more of a speedy attack over a particularly strong one. Make it more of a defensive, "get off me" tool for opponents that bypass the projectile and get too close for LAMBA's other moves to come out fast enough.

You'll have to elaborate on the changes to Plasma Vortex. The last version we had was a stationary hitbox that drew opponents into it.

You also mention a charge on Plasma Sphere which wasn't present before.

Give me a rundown on what the new idea is, because overall, it's turning into a different move entirely based on what you've said so far.
How about this, the attack has three stages. When having no charge it becomes the Plasma Burst, a short-range plasma breath attack that is mainly a stunning tool, think a close-range PK Fire with weaker damage but keeping the trapping potential. This would be a good move to confirm LAMBDA's grabs. Plasma Sphere is the mid level charge, which starts sluggish but accelerates as it moves horizontally, the more it accelerates, the more knockback it deals, meaning at max range it's a kill move. Finally, the fully charged version is Plasma Bomb which is still slow, but it's a long lingering projectile can be both a trap to easily allow LAMBDA's grabs, or be led into as a kill move. All three moves synergize excellently with Plasma Vortex, which trades most of the damage for trapping and a potent windbox, good for leading into any charge of the Plasma attacks. They fill overtime, Plasma Burst being usable anytime, Plasma Sphere being charged after 7 seconds, and Plasma Bomb after 20 seconds. How does that sound?

Also, did you notice the Discord Server link I made, I made a Discord server for Sigma Busters. If you want I would be happy if you joined, allows me to better showcase my progress directly.
 
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