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Social *sigh* oh the life of a Zelda main [A new zelda discussion zone]

Upke

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1. Dair is almost entirely for disrespect. It does have a few uses, but it's rare to actually warrant using it. One situation I think it works out is when a Falco is up-Bing under the stage in an awkward spot to land a kick, so instead you can fastfall a dair. The only problem is, if they meteor cancel it immediately, a weak kick might actually have more hitstun, lol.

2. Nair kinda blows. I use it a lot for platform shenanigans like you said, but other than that I don't really use it.

3. If you can powershield effectively, it's pretty useless. I sometimes use it to punish an attack on shield if I can't shield grab them, and they aren't spaced right for a kick or an upsmash. There are probably better options though. You can also use it to eat through annoying recoveries because it has invincibility, like TheLake has challenged Falco's recovery with it I remember seeing.

4. I highly doubt you can follow up a jab. I use it to keep people from mindlessly approaching and sometimes I use it in combination with fsmash for shield pressure. It's not REAL pressure, but it's far-reaching, so it's just a way to safely eat at their shield a little bit until they decide to actually jump/roll out. You'd be surprised how long some people will stay in shield while doing that. As for dtilt, I've only ever used it on floaties at high percents to try and cheese an uptilt follow-up kill. Not very useful, imo.

5. Sure, they are horrible matchups, but they sometimes feel worse than they really are. Falco can be in control of the match 100% of the time, but you may still win. Even if he hits you with forty lasers and a handful of shines, you can kill him in five or less hits. The most important thing is to stick it out and watch for even the smallest of openings in their play. Also chaingrabbing is cool and dash attack is pretty good at beating certain approaches. And once you get them offstage, you should usually try to follow them and kick them when they first start their up-B or side-B. It's much easier than trying to react to angles or shortens with Zelda's slow speed. The only reason not to is if you're simply too far away. But yeah, spacies suck.

6. She's pretty much 100% spacing. As I mentioned earlier, she has faux-pressure, but it's really just a mindgame. The opponent will never get stuck in shield by Zelda's attacks, but you can scare them into feeling stuck. I know when I'm approaching a character after they teched or something and I know I won't get there in time, I short hop and just float through them as they bring up their shield, then I wait until the last possible moment when I've gone through them to go for a cross-up kick and hope they try to jump OoS. Even if they don't, you're pretty safe.


I hope that helps you, but keep in mind that I'm not the best player and my advice should be taken with a grain of salt.
 

.K1

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thanks for the input, Ill definitely keep it in mind. Another question if I may:

Are Zelda's CG's on fast fallers legit? like....are her CG's guaranteed until a certain percentage? does she have any CG's on floaties / non FF'ers ? What are good "enders" to her CGs? Should I just go for twinkle toes?
 

Upke

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They should be. I haven't actually practised it in a long time, but I think it ends somewhere in the 50s and you can easily get a sweetspot kick to end it, then edgeguard. As for floaties, I just downthrow for the most damage, and if they don't know how to DI it (hint, it's behind), you can get a kick off that as well.
 

.K1

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very nice, thanks! Ill do my best to rep Zelda / Roy at the Arcadian !
 

BJN39

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So, on a somewhat unrelated note, I asked Ryoko about the future of Zelda's Kicks in P:M, he said they're likely out of the picture. What are you Zeldas' thoughts?


IMHO, Considering the new power of the rest of her moveset, I don't see Melee Kicks as necessary. But....
 

Upke

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The only reason I don't play Zelda in PM is because she's super different and I don't want PM habits in my Melee game. I don't know if that change will make that problem worse, or actually make her so different that she's basically a new character and I won't have to worry about it. In the latter case though, I'd be kind of sad because I don't want Zelda to be a new character.
 

BJN39

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Well, I guess even if she had Melee kicks she'd still seem like a different character. :( Kinda in a good way though.... > _ >

I definately respect your reason not to play as her though. I wouldn't want to mess up my Zelda. If I actually had the chance to play with other real players.
That's pretty much the same reason a Zelda on the brawl boards isn't using Zelda a lot in P:M too.
 

GKInfinity

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Getting rid of Zelda's kicks in P:M sounds really stupid to me. That's like getting rid of falcon's knee. Why would you do that? Other than the fact that she can transform into sheik, that's what she's most known for. Sounds really dumb.

I'm still not really a huge fan of P:M yet though. There are slight differences in physics for some characters and really stupid balancing choices for others. After a few games while playing with/against those characters I've had enough.
 

Clebus

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Whoa. They can't take away the kicks! That's... all she has that's not sub-par if you ask for my ignorant opinion.
 

BJN39

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(Late reply)

While I get you guy's concern about kicks, it's not like they don't have a sweetspot anymore. They're still very potent and also pack an even more powerful punch if you connect the critical sweetspot.

Besides, considering the rest of Zelda's moveset is now awesome and useful it shouldn't matter if her kicks are a little less crazy.
 

GKInfinity

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So, on a somewhat unrelated note, I asked Ryoko about the future of Zelda's Kicks in P:M, he said they're likely out of the picture.
You kind of made it sound like they were getting rid of the sweetspot or something with this post. I mean, you didn't specify at all what was 'out of the picture', but I was just under the impression that they wouldn't be good anymore. I don't really care if they tone them down a bit, because they do seem really good, but zelda needs her sweetspot kicks man.
 

BJN39

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Oh yeah I'm sorry, I guess I should've been more clear.
I wasn't looking to cause a reaction or anything, It kinda just slipped my mind...

But yeah kicks are still very potent and (contrary to popular belief) still the same range.
 

Upke

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So I was in a tourney last weekend and I lost to a Puff. First match went decently, and I won. Then starting second match, he decided to ledgecamp me and proceeded to for the next two games which I lost. What options does Zelda have against a ledgecamping Puff? I tried to sneak a kick in right before he regrabbed ledge, but the windows really tight and if I miss I usually eat a fair or bair, then he's back to camping. I thought about just trying to throw needles as Sheik, but they are pretty easy to avoid, and I don't want to get stuck as Sheik because my Sheik isn't very good. Thoughts?
 

GKInfinity

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I would actually switch to sheik and throw needles if I was in that situation. Either that, or just try to jump and grab the edge while puff isn't on it and proceed to go for a kick to the face
 

Upke

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I was able to grab it once, stalled with an up-B, then sweetspot kick him, but after that I didn't get any more opportunities because he would stay low, ready to fair/upair the ledge if I was anywhere close. I tried needles at the end but it was pretty much done at that point. I'll try it a lot earlier next time now that I remember to.
 

.K1

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opinions on Zelda worst matchups? Aside from Shiek I mean.

Could someone give me a quick opinion on these matchup ratios:

vs IC's
vs Peach
vs Samus
vs Luigi

<3
 

Upke

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55-45 ICs
60-40 Peach
Don't play enough Samuses to feel comfortable with this one
Maybe 55-45 Luigi but again I don't play many of them

With ICs, kick on shield is super safe and fsmash always gets the strong hit because Nana is dumb. Just camp platforms if they go into iceblock mode. The reason it's still in their favour is that they shouldn't be in shield. They can just outspace Zelda's attacks then WD dsmash to punish and it's hard to counter that. Peach can just place safe with turnips and there's nothing for Zelda to do about it. Luigi is easy to edgeguard but super annoying in neutral because he can get in so fast. I like to put out jabs and low kicks in an unpredictable manner because I definitely don't have the reaction time to stop Luigi's approaches like WD ftilt.

I'll probably be put on blast but this is just my opinion and I'm willing to hear what others think as they might bring up stuff I didn't think about.


As for her worst MUs barring Sheik? I'd say YL for sure, as well as Falcon, Pikachu and Marth (if they know the MU). A Marth who doesn't know Zelda's range is like stupid easy, lol. Link is also troublesome but thankfully he's a lot slower than YL. **** that kid. Also, if you have a crazy good reaction time, the Falcon MU gets a lot easier, because you can just stay away from him and wait for his nair/knee approach and dash attack on reaction beats it. As long as you never get impatient, it's definitely winnable that way, imo.
 

BJN39

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I've always heard that Fox/Falco were among her worst not her worst though, obviously. (But that's probably the same for most Low tiers. :smirk:) What do the Zeldas think of the spacies?
 

.K1

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I know Zelda can actually destroy the spacies if she can touch them....particularly if she can land a throw. I think personally think Sheik is worse than spacies, but I might not be the norm. Idk.
 

Upke

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I'd say Sheik is worse. You shouldn't be able to touch spacies, but everyone makes mistakes. They are easier to combo and edgeguard than Sheik.
 

.K1

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Cosmo can touch spacies lol

Also speaking of which, I see cosmo doing OoS Usmash vs spacies shield pressure allllll the time and everytime he does it I cringe because I feel like its super unsafe........is this something I should be working into my game more or am I right in it being super dangerous to do?

Edit: I feel like I they can just DI out of it and punish me even if I hit them with a few hits of Usmash =/
 

.K1

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Am I right that I can be punished even on hit though? (Assuming theyre not directly above me...like....if theyre to the side of me and I use it inbetween falco dair and shine
 

MasterExocuter

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Any advice for escaping from enemies below you? like dat uair hungry fox or shiek? being on top is one of Zelda's weaknesses (no pervness intended)
 

.K1

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Its just a hard situation in general to deal with. Shiek has the same problem, but not quite as much as Zelda. Theres no real guaranteed way to get out, you kinda just have to work your way to the floor. Luckily Zelda has a fantastic air dodge. That being said, its still punishable if its read.
 

.K1

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Does sweetspot fair/bair have equal knockback to falcons sweetspot knee, or is zelda fair/bair more or less?
 

gijn

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Does anyone know the timing of U-smash out of shield against spacies? Should I try and U-smash when I see the shine clear or on the start of the short hop? How bad is the shield stun from shine, even if I buffer with C, there's not always space for me to get it out. should I just mash upC continuously until it comes out or mash in the first phase? Also does anyone have any good ways of getting secure grabs. Chasing onto platforms/ climbing platforms and preempting seems the only way I can get them or shield grabbing. I've been thinking of using d-tilt when fast fallers are over 35% and trying to read the tech from the bobble. but I might as well D-smash at that point :/
 
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Upke

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First, you have to know the spacie's tendencies before you upsmash OoS. I play a lot of spacies who like to disengage with a fullhop or something after the shine on shield, so I upsmash as soon as the shine is done. If they are pressuring with shine and aerials in between, I usually wait until they do a high aerial and upsmash OoS right after the hitstun, before they land and shine. As far as shield stun from shine goes, I'm not familiar with the exact frames, I'm just used to it.

Against high level players, I don't even expect to get grabs ever. I only go for them on hard reads usually, like if I've noticed they like to sit in shield or roll from the ledge or something.
 

gijn

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First, you have to know the spacie's tendencies before you upsmash OoS. I play a lot of spacies who like to disengage with a fullhop or something after the shine on shield, so I upsmash as soon as the shine is done. If they are pressuring with shine and aerials in between, I usually wait until they do a high aerial and upsmash OoS right after the hitstun, before they land and shine. As far as shield stun from shine goes, I'm not familiar with the exact frames, I'm just used to it.

Against high level players, I don't even expect to get grabs ever. I only go for them on hard reads usually, like if I've noticed they like to sit in shield or roll from the ledge or something.

Ah okay I guess more patience is needed, I probably go for it too early in game. My worry was I was just missing something to cringe-worthly obvious.Thanks for easing my doubts :)
 

X WaNtEd X

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First, you have to know the spacie's tendencies before you upsmash OoS. I play a lot of spacies who like to disengage with a fullhop or something after the shine on shield, so I upsmash as soon as the shine is done. If they are pressuring with shine and aerials in between, I usually wait until they do a high aerial and upsmash OoS right after the hitstun, before they land and shine. As far as shield stun from shine goes, I'm not familiar with the exact frames, I'm just used to it.

Against high level players, I don't even expect to get grabs ever. I only go for them on hard reads usually, like if I've noticed they like to sit in shield or roll from the ledge or something.
A trick I used with ganon that I've brought over to zelda to get past shine-heavy spacies is to asdi the first shine in your shield so that when the second one comes out, you're far enough away so that you can shield grab, u smash oos or whatever without getting hit.
 

gijn

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A trick I used with ganon that I've brought over to zelda to get past shine-heavy spacies is to asdi the first shine in your shield so that when the second one comes out, you're far enough away so that you can shield grab, u smash oos or whatever without getting hit.
ah okay that makes a lot of sense I haven't been thinking about my C-stick position in shield. I've been lighshield heavy so need to start mediumshielding as well. Both hopefully should do enough to deal with the pressure. I played professor pro in some friendlies the other day and the shield pressure was just insane hard to know what to do against perfect move execution.
 
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X WaNtEd X

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hey guys. i've been playing zelda a lot more lately and am making some pretty big strides. my main problem is the marth matchup. let's talk some anti marth strats.

i've found that it's very hard to play against a good zoning marth with zelda. marth is tall enough for zelda to get off a quick fair/bair off (as in fair/bair immediately after jump and you'll hit it if you space it properly) but i often get stuffed and juggled. so i transition to my ground game, aka dsmash, dash attack, usmash and jab. but i'm still pretty screwed most of the time. i have a few ok tricks, but nothing much.

like off of a dsmash at low percents i can fair immediately and hit the sweet spot before marth has time to react. dash attack also tends to set up for some good kicks. i usually use it to punish marth for whiffing, as it's extremely unsafe otherwise. jab is looking like a pretty good option because it has at least more range than dsmash, but i don't use it enough.

thoughts?
 

Upke

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I am also making some Zelda strides! I have beaten the best Puffs in my state in tourney or MMs and they are considering me for the top 10 PRs. I don't agree with the PR spot, I think they're just hyping me up, but it's still nice because it means I'll have more people who want to play me so I get more practice! :nifty:
 
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X WaNtEd X

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I am also making some Zelda strides! I have beaten the best Puffs in my state in tourney or MMs and they are considering me for the top 10 PRs. I don't agree with the PR spot, I think they're just hyping me up, but it's still nice because it means I'll have more people who want to play me so I get more practice! :nifty:
do you have some videos? and could you talk some marth? i kinda want to re-kindle the zelda boards.
 

Upke

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No recent videos really. I have a couple from like a month or two ago that I can post after work.
As far as Marth, I dunno lol. I'm really bad at talking about MUs in general but I can name specific things that are cool. Like the go-to edgeguard that's been working well is ledgehog (using Farore stalling for invincibility when needed), then regular stand up from the ledge, turn around dsmash. Basically the only way I can think of them getting around it is sweetspotting the ledge both in distance and in time because if they go too high, they get hit by the dsmash, and if they up-B too early, then regular get up denies them of a ledgegrab. I also like shielding on platforms and baiting Marths to uptilt because their uptilt is so sick, then shield drop kicking them, but that will only work a handful of times until they start respecting it.

Edit: JK, those videos suck.
 
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