Social *sigh* oh the life of a Zelda main [A new zelda discussion zone]

Upke

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Here's what I tend to think of Zelda's matchups:
Vs Falco and Marth, I think Zelda can compete (but it's tough)
Vs Peach: Zelda can meaningfully compete
Vs Ice Climbers: Zelda can meaningfully compete,
Vs Jigglypuff: Zelda can meaningfully compete, almost feels even
Vs Samus: Feels about even
Vs Luigi: Zelda can meaningfully compete, almost feels even
Vs Donkey Kong: Zelda has an advantage
Vs Mewtwo: Zelda bodies Mewtwo
Vs any character below her on the tier list, I think she wins handily, except against Kirby (quite disadvantaged) and Pichu (maybe slight disadvantage but even-ish).
Falco: Really no reason for the Falco to ever lose this MU unless they overextend. If their pressure isn't tight enough, or they try to reach too far on combos, they can be grabbed/upsmashed OoS/kicked offstage without a jump. This will be a recurring theme for characters fighting Zelda, but all Falco needs to do is stay patient and camp her out with lasers. Once he is confident that he recognizes the Zelda's shielding habits, he can laser grab when she will stay in shield and punish aerials OoS with nair/shine/upair/dair depending on the spacing and whether the Zelda fullhopped or shorthopped. One good thing about the MU is that it's hard for Falco to confirm a kill off an edgeguard. He has to stay near the ledge to cover the sweetspot option, which makes it hard to cover an up-B far into the stage with an actual killmove. If you can avoid dairs offstage (and fsmashes which shouldn't land anyways), you will be able to live for a long time most stocks, whereas he might **** up once at 30% and get kicked off stage, then edgeguarded, and that's why the MU seems rather doable. Again, if he's exceedingly patient, there's no real reason for him to get hit. Also, dtilt is probably the most underrated killmove for him in the MU. Oh, and you can CG to somewhere around 50% (don't know exact percents).

Marth: His dashdance just destroys Zelda, but she will live a very long time if she can avoid tippers and dairs offstage. I've played PP's Marth, and he was amazing at confirming dairs so that I rarely lived past 100%. Those were rough games. One thing to note is that you can beat his fsmash with your kick when falling down, so long as you time it perfectly, because of how he extends his hurtbox with his hand before the actual hitbox comes out. You can also punish not perfectly spaced fsmashes OoS with kick. As far as the neutral goes, if Marth just pokes you with dtilts and grabs when you shield, you just lose, there's no way around that. If they ever try to nair approach, you can dash attack it. Usually you want to slowly close in on them and take stage presence if they'll allow it, then try to dash attack their dashdance when it's hard to react to. You're gonna lose the neutral all the time tho basically, that's just how it works. As far as edgeguarding goes, I like to ledgestall with Farore's until they are close, then comes the mixup. If they up-B to the ledge early, you can neutral get up and cover it. If they up-B high, you can neutral get up and turnaround dsmash. If they up-B to the ledge late, that's when you have to roll to cover it. If they still have their doublejump and airdodge onto the stage, you just have to take a nair or kick them to the other side usually. In short, his neutral destroys yours, you have to bait and have better punishes. Dthrow to kick works if they DI in only, which can be good if your back is facing the ledge.

Peach: Turnips win the MU. When they don't turnip camp you, you can contend with her aerial game because your kicks are disjointed but you have to have a good idea of when they will use their moves. It's really hard to react to an incoming FC fair and still have time to get airbourne and space out a kick, so you're usually forced to shield and buffer roll since they will usually dsmash/grab after. If you know they will jab afterwards, you can drop shield and CC jab(s) into dsmash, but that's about it. Also, Nayru's is not that good, sorry. Good Peaches will either throw turnips from the ground and jump over them to punish or throw turnips from the air and fastfall to float underneath. It can be good when they have already committed to their float height. This is one of those MUs where Din's Fire is actually usuable. Because her recovery is so good, but she's also relatively slow, when you send her offstage, you can limit her options with Din's Fire. It rarely hits because it's a terrible move, but it's no risk, and I have legitimately gotten Din's Fire into kick on Peaches in tournament. Also, kicks are a perfect spacing to punish dsmashes, so they have to think twice before dsmashing on platforms and on shield. Again, turnips just straight up win the MU if they camp.

ICs: Similar to Peach, they win by camping projectiles (in this case ice blocks). If you let them get a lead, you should lose. There's really nothing Zelda can do to get around ice blocks and desync'd blizzards. if you get a lead however, they are forced to approach. It's similar to the Luigi MU in this scenario, where fsmash is a good anti-approach (even better against ICs than it is against Luigi since Nana is almost guaranteed to get hit by the last hit), but you have to know when they will approach. It's punishable on whiff, and it's still punishable on shield but much harder. Oftentimes, you will be able to stuff their OoS approach with dsmash. Nayru's is also situationally good. It's easily punishable on whiff and on shield, and getting grabbed means you're dead, so most of the time, you should not use it. However, when they aren't in a situation to punish with a grab, it can be useful and often separates them. Ex. SoPo and when you know them shielding it will push one of both of them off onto the ledge. Edgeguarding can be surprisingly tricky because of how slow Zelda is. With their ability to lean forward and back with the side-B (and raising and falling), it often leads to sourspots and whiffs due to the precision needed with kicks. Just something that can be practiced, and it's helpful if you can pick up on their recovery habits.

I'll do some more later.
 
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Blea Gelo

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Upke, that was good matchs. I reeeally didnt know that matchup, havent played such a good zelda before. U saying u can beat me now that i know it? Mm? :)
 

Upke

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I think it would be very hard, but possible. And it's only gonna get harder the more you know the MU, but I'd still be glad to MM you next time we're at a tourney!
 

the muted smasher

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When ics down-b de-synce if You just hold up as Luigi they get free nairs/dair if they were close ish and came in near the start of it. I would think zedla could do the same thing with her kicks seeing that she's even more floaty with a better air speed.

Again it has to be about the time they start else You have to sdi also
 

Jibca

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I'd imagine with Zelda's massive lightshield z-psa would be pretty good. I'll have a Falco player to play against on Monday (probably) to confirm, but I see no reason why this tech won't help Zelda a lot.
 

X WaNtEd X

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pulled out my zelda for an entire tourney today at a local and actually did pretty well, getting to losers quarters. wish i got on stream though :(
 

X WaNtEd X

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thoughts on covering the high option of the spacies recovery on stages other than fd and pokemon? basically, what do you guys do when a space animal goes for a platform? i watched a bunch of zelda vids and failed to find more than three examples of a zelda successfully converting an edgeguard off of a high recovery from a spacie. i've even noticed it in my own game; i almost always drop those edgeguards. this is scary to me because it feels like a lot of people will just catch onto this and consistently recovery high at different trajectories to throw you off.

i think just trying to read their angle and space a fair/bair is pretty tricky. i'm starting to think the only way you're going to get the edgeguard without guessing is by covering the low option and then jumping up and hoping they shield so you can grab. maybe jump up and dsmash/nair as a mixup if they stop shielding as soon as they hit the platform.

alternatively, you could just head straight for the platform and fail to cover a sweet spot but be in position to cover anything that's high or just above the ledge. i feel like that's a pretty solid option because even if they get the ledge you still have a far better neutral than you do otherwise and you can kill them if they recover just about any other way.
 

Comet7

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so a question. over in the pichu boards we're discussing the zelda mu, so the input of zelda users would be nice. what do you guys think of him? for reference, he's a like a pikachu with worse tech rolls, bad crouch cancel, and dies really early. also doesn't have tail spikes or a good f smash.
 
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MagicScrumpy

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Pichu can be a little scary. He's really small and mobile, which makes him a huge pain. Couple that with a couple of reliable kill moves, and you have yourself a character you need to respect. However, Zelda has some nice killing tools that work wonders against Pichu if she can get the hit. I'm not really well-versed enough in the matchup to speak too much about it, though.
 

CnB | Chandy

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Hey guys, I'm mentoring this kid in my scene who wants to be a Zelda main, but I'm just a DK player so I don't know anything about this character. I looked around and made this video based on interesting Zelda tech I'd heard about before.


If I was going to make a second/third video for other useful stuff he should practice to be a good Zelda main, what would you guys suggest I put in it? It doesn't have to be Zelda specific stuff (obviously wavelanding after aerials isn't) but if there is general tech that Zelda needs to be really good at to do well, I'd love to know.

@ Upke Upke @Cosmo! @darkatma
 

gijn

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Hey guys, I'm mentoring this kid in my scene who wants to be a Zelda main, but I'm just a DK player so I don't know anything about this character. I looked around and made this video based on interesting Zelda tech I'd heard about before.


If I was going to make a second/third video for other useful stuff he should practice to be a good Zelda main, what would you guys suggest I put in it? It doesn't have to be Zelda specific stuff (obviously wavelanding after aerials isn't) but if there is general tech that Zelda needs to be really good at to do well, I'd love to know.

@ Upke Upke @Cosmo! @darkatma
you're the guy that did the banzai punch aren't you? if so sick

anyways

few things:

Retreating Pivot Jabs - turnaround and jab in the 1 frame window while retreating additional grounded option as you don't want to jump a lot with zelda.

platform AIA- do a Fair when level with a platform it cancels and you can do any move out of it. depends on scenario what you use out of it but jab/dsmash/grab/naryus love/farore's wind all work.

ledge AIA- fair when just over the lip of the stage and it'll cancel and still maintain some invincibility frames.. its 14 frames on battlefield.. there's a post by schmoo in this thread with more details

SHIA dropped aerials - 1 frame shield drop to aerial or just do ISAI drop aerials, fair and bair come out fast :p

edge cancel UAirs- Uair is good to edge cancel in certain scenarios if you can push hard under the platform instantly after cancelling you can have 2 uair hitboxes overlapping each other.

reverse moonwalk to ledge grabs

also z-psa there's a .gif I posted.

If you need a help with a vod for these I can do it some point this week with the techniques
 
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CnB | Chandy

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Thanks for your response! Yeah, I'm the Banzai Punch guy.

I think I'll do pivot jabs/ftilts/fsmashes, platform cancels, and edge cancel uair for the next video, and then save the shield drop aerials, ledge AIA and Z-PS stuff for the third video so they scale in difficulty a little better. I appreciate you offering but I can handle recording all the footage myself. Thanks again!
 

Mystic83

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a vod of those would be awesome. some of them i don't have the timing down and need to practice.

sometimes i go to do them and get surprised when it works and then fail the rest of the timing (eg i go for platform aia and think i miss it but i actually hit it and then just stand there like an idiot)
 

gijn

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Thanks for your response! Yeah, I'm the Banzai Punch guy.

I think I'll do pivot jabs/ftilts/fsmashes, platform cancels, and edge cancel uair for the next video, and then save the shield drop aerials, ledge AIA and Z-PS stuff for the third video so they scale in difficulty a little better. I appreciate you offering but I can handle recording all the footage myself. Thanks again!
no worries man the more zelda content the better!
 

Upke

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Hey guys, I'm mentoring this kid in my scene who wants to be a Zelda main, but I'm just a DK player so I don't know anything about this character. I looked around and made this video based on interesting Zelda tech I'd heard about before.


If I was going to make a second/third video for other useful stuff he should practice to be a good Zelda main, what would you guys suggest I put in it? It doesn't have to be Zelda specific stuff (obviously wavelanding after aerials isn't) but if there is general tech that Zelda needs to be really good at to do well, I'd love to know.
Hmm, I can't think of much Zelda-specific stuff that is key to her success that wasn't covered in the video. As far as general tech, I find pivot attacks and empty pivots to be quite helpful, and shield dropping creates a sorely needed threat of counterattack. If you are in or expecting any kind of shield pressure on a platform, shield drop kick is a very quick way to retaliate, and if they are in the process of jumping (ex. Fox SH after shine as he prepares to SHFFL aerial on shield), you can get shield drop upair into a follow up. Also nairing across a platform as a techchase/shield pressure is pretty neat.

One Zelda-specific thing that's quite helpful I suppose is using the backside hit of your dsmash for edgeguarding. It's somewhere around 9 frames closer to the end of the move, effectively allowing you to act out of the edgeguard sooner.

Good luck with the videos!
 
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skid_marq

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I now have two tournaments under my belt! I entered Mayhem over the weekend and had a blast. Won only one match in pools . . . but my shining moment was when I MM'd MikeHaze. It's true you guys, the matchup unfamiliarity even exists in the top level. He totally thought I was going Sheik, so I went for the early bair into two dash attacks into a kick, ledge hog for the first stock. Then he two-stocked me . . . still proud of myself though.
 

X WaNtEd X

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The most important Zelda tech is shield DI. It's not really Zelda exclusive tech, obviously. But you gotta realize that Zelda's best trait is her enormous shield.

Like just watch this. Despite getting shined 2313112 times, he still wins the exchange just by being patient and playing good defense. That is the key to winning with Zelda; defense.

Also, the fair/bair into waveland is useful because it's a mixup you can condition people into falling for. What you want to do is fair/bair and shield most of the time. Maybe do a dsmash/jab if you have someone stuck in shield and you think they'll fall for the 4 frame trap. But otherwise, shield and watch as they mindlessly pressure you. Then you can start pulling out the waveland back fsmash when they start developing a habit of mindlessly going in. I've also noticed that waveland back into a quick rising fair works too depending on the spacing.

edit: Watching the sets between Kels and Cosmo is kind of depressing because back when those were made, Kels was like the top of his region. Now, most space animals are as good as that, if not better (of course Kels is also a lot better). It's crazy how much the average skill level has developed. And it's only going to get worse for the low tiers.
 
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gijn

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hey guys found something that might be useful. http://gfycat.com/CapitalAncientBernesemountaindog

Its a Platform cancelled fair to Z-SA 1 Frame Shield drop.( the vid is 1/2 speed if you want it realtime press the '+' button)

Shield drop but with much larger area to powershield with.

I was thinking about AIA and what would work since you can already hold A to do the fair cancel ( i normally use cstick), you might as well hold the input and SHAI drop holding Z as well. Please help me test it out :)

64thframe.png frame 64 of the gif you can see how much the Z-SA covers the platform
 
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RetroGamersGuru

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To the Zelda mains, a friend of mine wanted to me to teach him more about Melee Zelda since he's interested in the game, but I mostly use spaced sweetspot Fairs and Bairs and a couple of Dsmashes. I felt that I didn't know enough about the character to teach him, so I'm trying to learn about the full character. I've seen the tech video that CnB Chandy posted, and I want to know if I'm missing some important aspects of her meta. Are there uses for her to have a Shelda?
 

X WaNtEd X

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hey guys found something that might be useful. http://gfycat.com/CapitalAncientBernesemountaindog

Its a Platform cancelled fair to Z-SA 1 Frame Shield drop.( the vid is 1/2 speed if you want it realtime press the '+' button)

Shield drop but with much larger area to powershield with.

I was thinking about AIA and what would work since you can already hold A to do the fair cancel ( i normally use cstick), you might as well hold the input and SHAI drop holding Z as well. Please help me test it out :)

View attachment 49109 frame 64 of the gif you can see how much the Z-SA covers the platform
Woah where is the fair? Can you do one with the hitbox?

I've been doing something similar to this with my Ganon, only without the platform cancel. Basically perfect land on a platform into immediate 1 frame shield drop. It's especially sick from the top platform because if they chase me I immediately come down with an aerial depending on the spacing. Been thinking about trying similar things with Zelda.

Are there uses for her to have a Shelda?
Zelda sucks. There is absolutely no reason your friend should be learning Zelda unless he's going to commit to her as a main/secondary or something for the pleasure of it. He should be learning fundamentals with a higher tier character first before doing this stuff.

Anyway, I think you should be doing a little bit more homework first before coming straight to asking really general questions. There are plenty of resources for you to learn about what Zelda can do right here on this board.

First off, you should definitely read this thread. There's a lot of information about Zelda combos, strategies, spacings, theory crafting, etc. that you aren't going to get anywhere else. Honestly, it's a shame this thread isn't stickied. I learned a lot from reading it.

You could also learn about Zelda by watching videos. Look up sets from well known Zelda players such as Cosmo, The Lake, and most recently Upke. Despite the fact that Fair, Bair, and dsmash are some of her best moves, you definitely have to do more than that to make her work. You'll see.
 

gijn

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Woah where is the fair? Can you do one with the hitbox?

I've been doing something similar to this with my Ganon, only without the platform cancel. Basically perfect land on a platform into immediate 1 frame shield drop. It's especially sick from the top platform because if they chase me I immediately come down with an aerial depending on the spacing. Been thinking about trying similar things with Zelda.
Yeah 1 frame plat drops are good with everyone learn how to do the running 1 with ganon for them sweet ass falling upairs :).

and the fair animation is cancelled by the platform. easiest way I do it is to hold an angle I normally use to isai drop as I pass up through the stage.

You can edge cancel bair and fair to that 1 frame Z-SA Drop been practicing it so there's a hitbox. Also its really easy once you've platform cancelled to running Z-SA drop to fair/bair or running z-sa drop to instant platform cancel grab.

I'm going to post a tech video of stuff i've been working on
 
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X WaNtEd X

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Yeah 1 frame plat drops are good with everyone learn how to do the running 1 with ganon for them sweet *** falling upairs :).

and the fair animation is cancelled by the platform. easiest way I do it is to hold an angle I normally use to isai drop as I pass up through the stage.

You can edge cancel bair and fair to that 1 frame Z-SA Drop been practicing it so there's a hitbox. Also its really easy once you've platform cancelled to running Z-SA drop to fair/bair or running z-sa drop to instant platform cancel grab.

I'm going to post a tech video of stuff i've been working on
So I have a few questions about this.

1. What is a Z-SA Drop? What are the inputs for it along with edge canceling a fair/bair off it?

2. Can you cancel the fair/bair animation off a 1 frame shield drop? I feel like that would be more optimal than an isai drop because you would retain momentum and could do it out of a dash.

3. After edge canceling a fair/bair with this method, you can perform a second one immediately, right? I'm thinking you could do this, and then throw out another fair/bair if they approach before I hit the ground. Alternatively, you would have the option to double jump or waveland out of this drop depending on spacing and stuff. My running shield drops already give me these options, but being able to throw out an extra aerial and retain these options would be sick.

Also I wanted to add that I've been doing some Zelda theory crafting lately, and I'm of the opinion that wavelanding into a normal drop shouldn't be used anymore. Is there any point to doing that when you can waveland onto a platform and shield drop an aerial? That would be faster and you have more flexibility with the spacing. For example, if you wanted to place a bair/fair a little farther forward or backwards, you can just dash to that area and get it off. Of course, doing that will make it slightly slower, but you always have the option to immediately shield drop out of the waveland. With wavelanding into immediate normal drops, you lock yourself in to a certain spacing as soon as you waveland.
 
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skid_marq

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My Zelda's leveling up! I placed 9th out of 22 at my most recent local tournament, and it feels so satisfying finally having more wins than losses in a bracket (3-2). What kills me though is that a huge factor in my elimination is that I started to lose mental energy. My last match was with a Jigglypuff, and that match can be tiring as hell. I didn't feel nervous at all, but I just started to zone out.

Do you guys have any tips on how to keep yourself alert after playing so many tournament matches? Types of snacks you like to bring with you? I had a burrito before the tournament. That probably wasn't the best idea!
 

ChivalRuse

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Gatorade is a good beverage to drink because it fuels your body with electrolytes and energy and doesn't have the negative side-effects of your typical energy drink (erratic movement, crash, etc.).
 

Upke

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I just eat before the tournament and drink lots of water. If it's a big tournament, I'll probably eat again at some point before being done. In such scenarios, I try to give myself at least 30 minutes after eating before I have to play a match. Also if there's free redbull, I just drink that all day along with water just because I can...
 

skid_marq

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Thanks for the suggestions, I think I might try out Gatorade for the next tourney. I had a weird experience with an energy drink once. I got hella good at Third Strike, but got super depressed during the crash. Probably had something to do with procrastinating my studies for finals though, so I might give it a shot again.

BTW, is anyone here even a Zelda main anymore? Except for Upke and gijn, I guess?? I wrote up a little article about a long-term strategy I have about maining a low-tier character as a competitive Melee newbie and possibly switching mains when I get more experience. I'd be interested in hearing what the Zelda enthusiasts would have to say about this, especially the former Zelda mains.

About a five minute read, it would mean a lot if you took the time to give me your thoughts!
http://skid-marq.tumblr.com/post/119303845649/my-zelda-tho
 

ChivalRuse

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I definitely don't main Zelda, but I have used her in free tournaments quite a bit. I don't feel that I am strong enough with her to use in legit tourneys yet, though. :sadeyes:
 

Upke

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What places are giving you free Red Bull? :colorful:
There have been a handful of tourneys that Red Bull sponsors (Paragon and Olympus are two that I attended), and they gave out complimentary 4 packs of Red Bull when you entered and usually had giant Red Bull cans that were actually ice chests full of Red Bull.

@ skid_marq skid_marq I'm essentially a trimain at this moment in time, one of these characters being Zelda (the other two being Falcon and Marth). I think playing Zelda for so long has given me an edge in some areas, but also hindered me in others. With Zelda, I was able to learn minute spacing and being patient, but my ability to make reads and react suffered. All characters rely on reads and reactions, but when you can only cover so many options or punish so many decisions by the other player, you don't get a complete sense of what's available to you as a player. Since taking up a high tier seriously, I'm able to adapt to my opponent's habits much quicker because when I miss a punish/techchase I know I could've without a doubt covered it, so it sticks in my mind and I look for those situations in the future.
 
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ChivalRuse

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Yeah playing high tiers has its rewards. I love the feeling on someone's face when you take them unawares with new character matchup inexperience.

So I've reached the conclusion that doing a fair when moving forward is pretty much never good. I know that The Lake always talks about this, but I feel like this can't be emphasized enough.
 

skid_marq

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@ Upke Upke I agree, I learned a lot about spacing and patience after using Zelda for so long. But at this point I feel like maining her is holding me back as an overall player. I started grinding with Sheik a couple weeks ago and I'm having so much fun doing stuff that's just not possible with Zelda. I've also been learning the basic tech of the top tier characters to better understand their movement and options. I feel like I'm understanding the game a lot better now, and my Zelda is doing a lot better because of it.

I've been going Sheik against Marths and Sheiks in tournament, and it's making my life so much easier. I want to be able to do the spacie match-ups with Sheik, but I feel more confident in my Zelda against them at this point. Fun story: I did Sheik dittos in tournament yesterday, got two-stocked in game one, so my opponent went Fox. I clutched it out with Zelda in Fountain of Dreams! Got a tiny crowd hype for a bit, then I got two-stocked in Sheik dittos. Definitely the highlight of the tournament for me. Placed 17th out of 60 :D
 

skid_marq

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And oh yeah, the hydration strategy helped a lot. I packed three bottles of water instead of my usual one bottle.

btw, this might be my scrubbiness talking, but I feel like using Zelda is very doable against other floaties. Kind of feels like playing Divekick. Not sure if any of you have played that game.
 

Upke

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I mean, as the opposing character's movement and pressure get slower/worse, Zelda becomes relatively more of a better character, but there are still caveats, like how turnips basically invalidate Zelda as a character when the Peach MU may be somewhat doable without them.
 
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