Social Shulk Social : Starting to feel it!

[dhblademaster]

So, I was watching one of Esam's streams earlier today and they all was talking about how they thought Cloud was the best Swordsman in the the Smash 4. Compared to all the other Swordsman Cloud has better frame date than them. However, I think either Marth, Meta Knight, and Shulk all have Cloud beat imo and this is coming from a Cloud main.

I don't think Shulk is a bad character I think Shulk is severely underatted and has tons of potential imo.

I can only really comment on the Shulk vs. Cloud comparison because I don't know as much about Marth and Meta Knight.

In terms of this Cloud vs. Shulk, "who's better" situation, frame data isn't the only distinguishing factor. Although, let me emphasize that this is a pretty significant difference between the two. Cloud's Limit is also a huge distinguishing factor between the two. The fact that he can kill so early in stocks fairly consistently (as opposed to Shulk needing to edgeguard or get hard Smash Arte smash attacks reads), is a pretty significant difference between Cloud and all of the other sword characters.

And, even though I understand that this argument isn't totally solid, I think it has to be noted how well Cloud's have been doing in bigger tournaments recently. Especially at Shots Fired 2. The fact that Shulk and many of the other swordsmen don't have that kind of representation will inevitably tilt the perception of Cloud towards being the best swordsman.

So, yeah, I would agree with Esam's stream and say that Cloud is the best swordsman, and I think Meta Knight and possibly (maybe not) Corrin are the only characters that can challenge his position. The only issue with Meta Knight currently, is that it seems like a lot of players have tended to stay at the ledge to avoid Meta Knight's brutal combos, which I think has hurt his effectiveness a little bit. Of course, as time goes on Meta Knights might adapt to that, and people may adapt to Clouds or something to that effect.

And yeah, Shulk could be really good. I just think it's really hard to be consistent with him at this point in time. I don't really think making an absolute opinion on him is fair at this time.

 

[Skyfox2000]

I can only really comment on the Shulk vs. Cloud comparison because I don't know as much about Marth and Meta Knight.

In terms of this Cloud vs. Shulk, "who's better" situation, frame data isn't the only distinguishing factor. Although, let me emphasize that this is a pretty significant difference between the two. Cloud's Limit is also a huge distinguishing factor between the two. The fact that he can kill so early in stocks fairly consistently (as opposed to Shulk needing to edgeguard or get hard Smash Arte smash attacks reads), is a pretty significant difference between Cloud and all of the other sword characters.

And, even though I understand that this argument isn't totally solid, I think it has to be noted how well Cloud's have been doing in bigger tournaments recently. Especially at Shots Fired 2. The fact that Shulk and many of the other swordsmen don't have that kind of representation will inevitably tilt the perception of Cloud towards being the best swordsman.

So, yeah, I would agree with Esam's stream and say that Cloud is the best swordsman, and I think Meta Knight and possibly (maybe not) Corrin are the only characters that can challenge his position. The only issue with Meta Knight currently, is that it seems like a lot of players have tended to stay at the ledge to avoid Meta Knight's brutal combos, which I think has hurt his effectiveness a little bit. Of course, as time goes on Meta Knights might adapt to that, and people may adapt to Clouds or something to that effect.

And yeah, Shulk could be really good. I just think it's really hard to be consistent with him at this point in time. I don't really think making an absolute opinion on him is fair at this time.

I agree with you. You make alot of valid points. The whole who's the best swordsman is debateable. I do think Shulk is severely underatted. He's got so much potential into going higher on the tier list.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Shulk can have all the potential in the world but it's still simpler to pick up Cloud and take advantage of his lingering hitboxes and Limit Cross Slash right away. Shulk takes a lot of work to maybe be around mid-tier, results wise. I could be wrong and optimized Shulk could be a monster, but that won't happen for a while yet because the Monado Boy's rep has plummeted since release, leaving it to a small but dedicated handful to level him up. We'll see how it goes. Honestly I'd be happy to see him end up in mid-tier one day, myself.

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

I feel like Shulk will rise up the tier list as time goes on. Technical characters tend to really hit their stride after their respective games have been out for a while. What Shulk needs is a breakout performance I think, kind of like Leo with MK. Someone really good who can show what Shulk can really do. Unfortunately, Shulk isn't even close to being optimized yet, but we as a community have come a long way in developing the meta of this character. Perhaps soon?
Keeping it real though, top Shulk players are going to have to find ways to alleviate Shulk's biggest flaw: his awful frame data.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I mentioned it a bit in the metagame thread, but I feel like the key is abusing the mobility arts combined with extreme patience. At the very least it's gotten me some better results. Get the lead (this can be the hard part in certain match ups...), then guide them around the stage with your big glowing sword as a trail marker. They gotta throw out moves if they want to catch up, and if Shulk can evade he'll have the time he needs to whiff punish. Buster and smash for when you've got them offstage/ cornered on the ledge, and Shield for holding onto stocks/negating early damage combos. And of course rounding things off with activation/deactivation shenanigans.

 

[Omega-Xis49]

Shulk has started to be my favorite ever since I played Xenoblade Chronicles. Absolutely loved that game.
I'm at least glad Shulk didn't recieve any nerfs so far.
I do hope he can one day climb up higher on the tier list, and I hope to see more people use him.

 

[AlvisCPU]

So, I was watching one of Esam's streams earlier today and they all was talking about how they thought Cloud was the best Swordsman in the the Smash 4. Compared to all the other Swordsman Cloud has better frame date than them. However, I think either Marth, Meta Knight, and Shulk all have Cloud beat imo and this is coming from a Cloud main.

I don't think Shulk is a bad character I think Shulk is severely underatted and has tons of potential imo.

This is kind of bouncing off what ExcaliburGuy said, but this is the thing. Shulk has a pretty steep learning curve, not to mention how high his skill ceiling is. Monado Arts just lend way too much versatility to dismiss him. What we really need to be taken seriously is just one person to master him and perform at least decent on an international level. I'm sticking with him (because Xenoblade is awesome and I have too much character loyalty), but I can see that I've only touched the tip of the iceberg.

 

[MaxRevenge]

I personally believe that some people rank Shulk very low in the tier list simply because they don't fully understand him. That's probably also why he's not doing very well. I mean, there are professional commentators out there who believe that Shulk's counter is the strongest with the Shield monado.

I've played over 15 000 games as Shulk, and I still believe that there are things I have yet to discover.

Here's why I think Shulk is easily the best swordsman in the game.

1. He has the longest overall disjointed range in the game. Yes, Corrin's Fsmash and Palutena's Usmash outrange Shulk's, but we're talking about overall range here.
2. Thanks to his Monado Arts, he:

• can wavebounce their activations (his most useful tech imo, more important than MALLC). See 4:08 and 4:14 in the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCcAW4mdNVY
  
• is the heaviest character in the game
• is the second fastest character in the game. This also gives him a beastly pivot grab (the best pivot grab in the game).
• has highest overall air mobility, also granting him one of the best recoveries in the game
• has (debatably) the highest amount of DPS
• has very strong kill throws. Shulk's down throw launches people in front of him, and Shulk's back throw launches people behind him. That means you'll have a reliable kill throw near the ledge regardless of the direction you're facing.

3. This is not that important, but I don't think many people know this so I'll point it out. Shulk has the strongest, most hard-hitting up-air in the entire game. It kills the earliest.

The only thing Shulk doesn't have over the other swordsmen is frame data. To me, his disjointed range more than makes up for this.

 

[dhblademaster]

I personally believe that some people rank Shulk very low in the tier list simply because they don't fully understand him. That's probably also why he's not doing very well. I mean, there are professional commentators out there who believe that Shulk's counter is the strongest with the Shield monado.

I've played over 15 000 games as Shulk, and I still believe that there are things I have yet to discover.

Here's why I think Shulk is easily the best swordsman in the game.

1. He has the longest overall disjointed range in the game. Yes, Corrin's Fsmash and Palutena's Usmash outrange Shulk's, but we're talking about overall range here.
2. Thanks to his Monado Arts, he:

• can wavebounce their activations (his most useful tech imo, more important than MALLC). See 4:08 and 4:14 in the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCcAW4mdNVY
  
• is the heaviest character in the game
• is the second fastest character in the game. This also gives him a beastly pivot grab (the best pivot grab in the game).
• has highest overall air mobility, also granting him one of the best recoveries in the game
• has (debatably) the highest amount of DPS
• has very strong kill throws. Shulk's down throw launches people in front of him, and Shulk's back throw launches people behind him. That means you'll have a reliable kill throw near the ledge regardless of the direction you're facing.

3. This is not that important, but I don't think many people know this so I'll point it out. Shulk has the strongest, most hard-hitting up-air in the entire game. It kills the earliest.

The only thing Shulk doesn't have over the other swordsmen is frame data. To me, his disjointed range more than makes up for this.

I guess the only thing I would say in response to this, is that this definitely proves Shulk's versatility. The only thing I want to say at this point revolves around consistency. Shulk may end up being better than most of the sword characters in the game once he is fully developed, but I'm fairly confident that he won't pass Cloud is because of Cloud's consistency. Because of how easy it is to force opportunities to charge Cloud's Limit, and how threatening it is, Cloud can be a very consistent threat. Even if you screw up, you'll still have a greater opportunity to win with Cloud than with Shulk simply because of how explosive Cloud can be, and the fact that his frame data does allow him to get out of a few more negative situations that Shulk has a bit harder time getting out of.

 

[Skyfox2000]

I personally believe that some people rank Shulk very low in the tier list simply because they don't fully understand him. That's probably also why he's not doing very well. I mean, there are professional commentators out there who believe that Shulk's counter is the strongest with the Shield monado.

I've played over 15 000 games as Shulk, and I still believe that there are things I have yet to discover.

Here's why I think Shulk is easily the best swordsman in the game.

1. He has the longest overall disjointed range in the game. Yes, Corrin's Fsmash and Palutena's Usmash outrange Shulk's, but we're talking about overall range here.
2. Thanks to his Monado Arts, he:

• can wavebounce their activations (his most useful tech imo, more important than MALLC). See 4:08 and 4:14 in the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCcAW4mdNVY
  
• is the heaviest character in the game
• is the second fastest character in the game. This also gives him a beastly pivot grab (the best pivot grab in the game).
• has highest overall air mobility, also granting him one of the best recoveries in the game
• has (debatably) the highest amount of DPS
• has very strong kill throws. Shulk's down throw launches people in front of him, and Shulk's back throw launches people behind him. That means you'll have a reliable kill throw near the ledge regardless of the direction you're facing.

3. This is not that important, but I don't think many people know this so I'll point it out. Shulk has the strongest, most hard-hitting up-air in the entire game. It kills the earliest.

The only thing Shulk doesn't have over the other swordsmen is frame data. To me, his disjointed range more than makes up for this.

You make a really good point! Shulk has so much potential not to be a low tier character. Shulk is severely underatted. Cloud may have all the fame and glory at the moment. I think as more as the game progresses people is going to figure out more ways how to defeat Cloud and they are going to get use to the match-up quicker. I highly disagree with the fact that ZeRo think Cloud is in the top 5 imo he has some severe flaws notably his gimpable recovery and his lack having and good options out of his grabs and the fact that he can be combo food. Cloud is a really solid character though with great Frame Date and a really good punish game! I think Cloud is at least around the Top 20 in my eyes and this is coming from a guy that is a Cloud main and I have 1300 matches in with him and over 100 hours in on his game Final Fantasy 7 (Not that thst matters)

Shulk was one of my first mains in the entire game and I would be really upset if he didn't go anywhere at all.

 

[mario123007]

Welcome to the Shulkboards buddy. Always nice to see a new face.
Ok. I'd highly HIGHLY suggest not doing a 100% run of Xenoblade on your first or even second playthough. If your in school wait for the summer break as well as 100%ing this game takes a lot of time.
To fully 100% Xenoblade you need to do the following.
1. Beat every Mission.
2. Beat every Unique Monster.
3. Get everyone up to max affinity.
4. Get the whole affinity chart filled.
5. Get every Achievement.
6. Fully upgrade everything that can be upgraded.
I'm sure there many more that I can't think of off the top of my head, but those are some of the things you need to do.
If you want help with this, then check out Chuggaaconroy's 100% playthough of Xenoblade.
www.youtube.com/user/chuggaaconroy
Again. I'd VERY HIGHLY recommend playing though the game a couple times to fully understand everything and also have loads of time to do this. This isn't a game you can put down for a month and play again. You need to be ready for this. If i can find it I'll also send you a guide that a friend of mine on the Shulkboards sent me to help me out on my 100% playthough...which didn't happen yet for varies reasons, but this summer...it's happening.
Anyway I hope I helped.
Also. DO NOT GET SPOILED ON THIS GAME!!! YOU WILL REGRET IT!!! WHEN LOOKING AT GUIDES OR VIDEOS, BE CAREFUL. THIS GAME IS BEST PLAYED BLIND AND NOT KNOWING THE STORY!!!

This is what I am doing right now... that's why my XC progress is slow...

 

[LasermasterA]

This is what I am doing right now... that's why my XC progress is slow...

I remember being so addicted to Xenoblade that I did 100% completion in 2 weeks. (oops)... And add another point to the list:

-- Make the best augments! And tons of them, and put 'em on everyone! OP party guaranteed! I remember I had tons of agility up XX, Critical Up, Night Vision, Debuff Resist, too many actually. And that too after getting the ultimate weapons for each of them.

So at what point you at?

 

[mario123007]

So at what point you at?

Haven't even reach to Eryth Sea...

 

[Mythra]

Haven't even reach to Eryth Sea...

At least you're near midgame, and I hope you're doing a blind run

Hi, Im new here. I finished the main story of Xenoblade last week, and I finally feel worthy of using Shulk now that I fully know his game.
I used him before getting the game but now I feel more "in sync" while playing, so he's one of my mains now and Im looking foward to keep improving.

 

[Monado Master]

Jeez. My thing didn't tell me so much has happened in the Shulkboards lately...Oh well.
So. Patch 1.1.5...THEY NERFED CORRINS COUNTER #SHULKBESTCOUNTER!
They nerfed a LOT this patch. Cloud's Limit Break isn't as good. Bayo was slightly hit, Corrin was hit pretty hard with his/her damage output and that counter. THEY ALSO FINALY FED MEWTWO!!! MY GOD THAT TOOK TOO LONG! Like, really? That many patches till they finally gave Mewtwo a friggin' Cheeseburger from McDonald's? Also Zelda, Ganon, and Samus buffs. Thank you so much. Still no Dedede buffs which is dumb.
I believe Shulk hasn't been changed at all. Sadly.
Sheik's weight was dropped quite a bit too. From 84 to 81 I believe.

About that Shulk being the best swordsman in the game thing. I agree with that statement, but to a certain degree. He isn't at his full potential yet. Hidden Techs yet to be found, new ways to use the Arts, (possibly) more patches to come. Give it time, he'll skyrocket on the tier lists soon enough. Zero himself said that the on;y swordsman better then Shulk in his eyes is Roy.

 

[mario123007]

At least you're near midgame, and I hope you're doing a blind run

Hi, Im new here. I finished the main story of Xenoblade last week, and I finally feel worthy of using Shulk now that I fully know his game.
I used him before getting the game but now I feel more "in sync" while playing, so he's one of my mains now and Im looking foward to keep improving.

Blind run? I'm taking time to complete quests and rebuilding Colony 6

 

[Mythra]

Blind run? I'm taking time to complete quests and rebuilding Colony 6

You know, playing the game while knowing almost nothing about the story.

 

[mario123007]

You know, playing the game while knowing almost nothing about the story.

Not exactly true, I only know only the early part of the story. I'm keeping myself from getting spoiled...a bit...

 

[Monado Master]

Not exactly true, I only know only the early part of the story. I'm keeping myself from getting spoiled...a bit...

Don't look up fanart. I spoiled something pretty big doing that. Good thing I just though it was a fanmade thing and not in the actual game. I was wrong though. Oh well. Still enjoyed the story.

 

[mario123007]

Don't look up fanart. I spoiled something pretty big doing that. Good thing I just though it was a fanmade thing and not in the actual game. I was wrong though. Oh well. Still enjoyed the story.

I recently ordered Bravely Default, I'll try the demo first (Which I had kept it for years in my 3DS). Another JRPG I can enjoy.

However I might not play that much often...

 

[AlvisCPU]

Bravely Default isn't for everyone, but if you like it, you'll love it. It's presented phenomenally would easily hit my Top 5 soundtracks.

It's a good day to be a low tier and bad day to be high tier. Yay, still holding out a bit of hope that Shulk's aerials have some reduction in start/endlag.

 

[mario123007]

Bravely Default isn't for everyone, but if you like it, you'll love it. It's presented phenomenally would easily hit my Top 5 soundtracks.

I already saw Bravely Second's gameplay a while ago, and I think it's pretty good.

 

[AlvisCPU]

I already saw Bravely Second's gameplay a while ago, and I think it's pretty good.

Oh yeah, I think the games are brilliant! Certainly worth getting into, 100%. I just know a few people who doesn't like that old-school-Final-Fantasy-styled combat and I'm like "fair enough".

Try not to spoiler yourself

 

[LordTakeo]

I already saw Bravely Second's gameplay a while ago, and I think it's pretty good.

Heya! Back from my viral infection.
Bravely second? It's as far as I played it (10h into it) Pretty good. I doubt the story itself will surpass the predessessor, but the characters show so much more lively.

What bugged me often was how bland Tiz was, and how clishee Agnes, but the current 4 protagonists are pretty damn working well together.

Spoiler

No Idea it it's a spoiler or not, but here it goes: Tiz is finally showing his actual character. He's a friendly land-egg, complimenting the smart scaredy cat we have now well, and gives Edea much to work with in certain circumstances.

I think they even made it a bit easier this time around, beating bosses is still a challange, but by no place anymore as hard as 1 AOE and you are dead, as before. It's a bit more "forgiving" if I say so, despite me being a bit underleveled.
Oh, and grinding is such an easy task by now.

 

[RawstyleEevee]

I already saw Bravely Second's gameplay a while ago, and I think it's pretty good.

The problem with Second is, that its a direct sequal to Default and just like AlvisCPU these games are not for anyone.

Bravely Second does fix the biggest nitpick people had with the first game, namely that you needed to do alot & I mean alot of backtracking to get the true ending(While its for sure worth it, I won't deny, that they could have made the backtracking way shorter in the first game)

Spoiler: CAN CONTAIN MAJOR BRAVELY DEFAULT & BRAVELY SECOND SPOILERS

After chapter 4, you basically have to Time Travel 4 times, to get the real ending, while in reality 1-2 Time Travels would have been enough to push forward the plot, because you have to redo all the events you did in chapter 1-4 in each chapter post chapter 4.

In 5 it was atleast interesting, but it should have been wrapped up in chapter 6.

Atleast they listend to the backslash, because Bravely Second only has one Time travel chapter & it cuts all the pointless cutscenes you saw in 1-4 & allows you to get the alternate Jobs in the chapters they where exclusive, to keep the backtracking fresh (example Chapter 1 makes you choose between getting the Thief or Red Mage class, so when you travel back to the area where chapter 1 took place, you can get the other class)

The story imo is also standard stuff, but the main reason people like these games is that the Gameplay is based on the classic Final Fantasy gameplay(well mainly FF5 because of the job system)

 

[mario123007]

OKay, I will try not to look at these spoilers...

 

[E.Lopez]

I remember being so addicted to Xenoblade that I did 100% completion in 2 weeks. (oops)... And add another point to the list:

-- Make the best augments! And tons of them, and put 'em on everyone! OP party guaranteed! I remember I had tons of agility up XX, Critical Up, Night Vision, Debuff Resist, too many actually. And that too after getting the ultimate weapons for each of them.

So at what point you at?

You know, there are just so many different kinds of augments that I frankly find it quite tedious to click through them all and try to determine which are the 'best.' What exactly was your criteria for making the 'best' augments?

We're talking about XCX right?

 

[Monado Master]

So. After doing some testing with Shulk. It feels like a lot of his moves come out a tiny bit faster. Probably the Ganon jab buff and Charizard ending lag buff messing with my head though. Anything about his grabs and throws I can't help with because I rarely use his grab.
Imagine a world where Shulk gets a range buff on all of his moves...

 

[LordTakeo]

So. After doing some testing with Shulk. It feels like a lot of his moves come out a tiny bit faster. Probably the Ganon jab buff and Charizard ending lag buff messing with my head though. Anything about his grabs and throws I can't help with because I rarely use his grab.
Imagine a world where Shulk gets a range buff on all of his moves...

I wish he'd get a range buff. After having corring and cloud, definitely something nice to have.
Jokes aside, better frames wouldn't really hurt. I saw how they treated corrin, which was imo a bit... well okay justified, but I don't see the real reason beyond "they were new and complainer source number 1"

But I do love to see Ganon, samus, Charizard and mewtu buffs.

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

Corrin's run speed nerf was completely unjustified in my opinion. He/she was already slow to begin with.
I also think the ZSS nerfs were a bit undeserved as well, but the Sheik nerfs were spot on in my opinion. The weight decrease and the nerfing of fthrow->Bouncing Fish + her easy 50/50 kill confirm are wonderful changes. I guess that her fthrow can lead to a 50/50 now, but apparently it has a strict timing.

 

[Rawbinator]

This has nothing to do with what you guys are talking about, but I just watched ZeRo's mid tier video which places Shulk at the top of mid. He says he likes Shulk and uses him a lot in his spare time and it got me thinking that ZeRo is probably the best Shulk player similar to how he's probably the best Falcon player although he uses neither in tournament.

What sucks is we get little to no footage of his Shulk play (actually he doesn't post any matches anymore, it kinda sucks) and some exposure for Shulk would be cool

Actually does anyone know of any streams/Youtube that feature a Shulk player semi-regularly? I know of Tremendo Dude @ VSGC but that's about it

 

[LordTakeo]

This has nothing to do with what you guys are talking about, but I just watched ZeRo's mid tier video which places Shulk at the top of mid. He says he likes Shulk and uses him a lot in his spare time and it got me thinking that ZeRo is probably the best Shulk player similar to how he's probably the best Falcon player although he uses neither in tournament.

What sucks is we get little to no footage of his Shulk play (actually he doesn't post any matches anymore, it kinda sucks) and some exposure for Shulk would be cool

Actually does anyone know of any streams/Youtube that feature a Shulk player semi-regularly? I know of Tremendo Dude @ VSGC but that's about it

I have seen Zero's shulk. He is -not- the best shulk player. He doesn't abuses the monado arts or MALLC nearly as much as some dedicated shulk mains you can see around from time to time.
But hey, the only real footage I have from him playing him semi-seriously was in an online tourney. So that's that.

Tourney shulks are rather rare, but we do actually have a few shulk plays, even if it's now prolly a bit outdated.

 

[Monado Master]

This has nothing to do with what you guys are talking about, but I just watched ZeRo's mid tier video which places Shulk at the top of mid. He says he likes Shulk and uses him a lot in his spare time and it got me thinking that ZeRo is probably the best Shulk player similar to how he's probably the best Falcon player although he uses neither in tournament.

What sucks is we get little to no footage of his Shulk play (actually he doesn't post any matches anymore, it kinda sucks) and some exposure for Shulk would be cool

Actually does anyone know of any streams/Youtube that feature a Shulk player semi-regularly? I know of Tremendo Dude @ VSGC but that's about it

If it means anything. I'm probably goin start streaming soon. Whether it's Smash or not.
He's not the best Shulk by far. I can honestly say that my Shulk can challenge Zero's Shulk...Yea probably wrong, but still.
The Corrin speed nerf is COMPLETELY justified in my eyes. Him/Her having less speed means less Combos off of there totally not spamable Dragon Fang Shot. Though it feels a bit too slow. I feel like I'm playing Ganondorf now.

 

[Rawbinator]

Well let me put it this way -- ZeRo won't be the best at advanced Shulk things. I'm sure he knows basic MALLC stuff, that's easy. When I suggest he might be the Shulk I guess I am more talking about his ability as a player -- understanding of the neutral, and ability to read the opponent, crazy reaction time and general knowledge of the game. In judging the ability to win games I would personally weigh these things higher up than knowing and being able to use Shulk's techniques.

This is also why I think Decisive Arts are really good despite pretty much throwing out all of Shulk's techniques

Of course this is theorycrafting, he's never going Shulk in tournament. Maybe a low tier side event similar to Glitch except with a better list of low tiers

 

[LordTakeo]

Well let me put it this way -- ZeRo won't be the best at advanced Shulk things. I'm sure he knows basic MALLC stuff, that's easy. When I suggest he might be the Shulk I guess I am more talking about his ability as a player -- understanding of the neutral, and ability to read the opponent, crazy reaction time and general knowledge of the game. In judging the ability to win games I would personally weigh these things higher up than knowing and being able to use Shulk's techniques.

This is also why I think Decisive Arts are really good despite pretty much throwing out all of Shulk's techniques

Of course this is theorycrafting, he's never going Shulk in tournament. Maybe a low tier side event similar to Glitch except with a better list of low tiers

If I remember it correctly, it's called Macro and Micro.
Macro being how the Character plays.
Micro being how the Player plays.

What you said is quite true, Zero is an outstanding player, but even he cannot beat Izaw's link in even a challange about money, as we saw. Both aspects have to work perfectly, that is also a pretty good explanation why Zero won with Diddy post-patch so often aswell, despite himself saying shiek was a better choice. You gotta know your character.

And Shulk is kinda 5 characters in one, considering his arts, perfect plays take time, and the feeling of each art getting trained into you takes training aswell. He might perform good against some people, but I am certain he wouldn't go to a tourney with him with his current level of mastery over our monado boy.

 

[Monado Master]

If I remember it correctly, it's called Macro and Micro.
Macro being how the Character plays.
Micro being how the Player plays.

What you said is quite true, Zero is an outstanding player, but even he cannot beat Izaw's link in even a challange about money, as we saw. Both aspects have to work perfectly, that is also a pretty good explanation why Zero won with Diddy post-patch so often aswell, despite himself saying shiek was a better choice. You gotta know your character.

And Shulk is kinda 5 characters in one, considering his arts, perfect plays take time, and the feeling of each art getting trained into you takes training aswell. He might perform good against some people, but I am certain he wouldn't go to a tourney with him with his current level of mastery over our monado boy.

Yea. Shulk takes time to learn and master, if mastering Shulk is even a thing...
There's a reason that most people don't play Shulk at events like Tourneys or even learn him. He takes time as mentioned like 2 sentences ago. People would rather play an EZ bake, here you go free kill, shove it and cry about it character like ZZS where you go into training mode for like 30 minutes and you've mastered the character, then playing a character that takes time and practice to learn and play like Shulk. This is kinda off topic right now, but I'll say it anyway. I hate EZ bake combo characters, spammy, and characters that hit WAY to hard. That's why I complain about Rosa, (T)Link, and Especially ZZS so much. Those 3 are everything I hate in a Smash Bros character all rolled up in one sadistic programming error.
Anyway back on topic now. People are lazy when it comes down to stuff like this. They wanna win so much, but they're lazy, so they see ZZS's Up B kill at -30% percent and go, "OMG DATS SO GUD! I WANNA B SO GUD 2! I PLAY AZ SEXY LADY WID POWER THIGHS! Then they see a bad Shulk do a Backslash off the edge and go. "Dat not so gud, and Nairo dun play Shulk, he must b bad..." I respect people that play characters besides what's top tier or meta, even if they're bad at it. At least they tried, unlike 50% of the Smash community. Welp, now that this post it taking up half of a page, I'll just end it with this. Shulk's underrated, and he'll be higher on the tier list when higher up/more well known Smasher actually plays Shulk for more then 2 days.

 

[LordTakeo]

Yea. Shulk takes time to learn and master, if mastering Shulk is even a thing...
There's a reason that most people don't play Shulk at events like Tourneys or even learn him. He takes time as mentioned like 2 sentences ago. People would rather play an EZ bake, here you go free kill, shove it and cry about it character like ZZS where you go into training mode for like 30 minutes and you've mastered the character, then playing a character that takes time and practice to learn and play like Shulk. This is kinda off topic right now, but I'll say it anyway. I hate EZ bake combo characters, spammy, and characters that hit WAY to hard. That's why I complain about Rosa, (T)Link, and Especially ZZS so much. Those 3 are everything I hate in a Smash Bros character all rolled up in one sadistic programming error.
Anyway back on topic now. People are lazy when it comes down to stuff like this. They wanna win so much, but they're lazy, so they see ZZS's Up B kill at -30% percent and go, "OMG DATS SO GUD! I WANNA B SO GUD 2! I PLAY AZ SEXY LADY WID POWER THIGHS! Then they see a bad Shulk do a Backslash off the edge and go. "Dat not so gud, and Nairo dun play Shulk, he must b bad..." I respect people that play characters besides what's top tier or meta, even if they're bad at it. At least they tried, unlike 50% of the Smash community. Welp, now that this post it taking up half of a page, I'll just end it with this. Shulk's underrated, and he'll be higher on the tier list when higher up/more well known Smasher actually plays Shulk for more then 2 days.

I do understand your rage, and I do hate ZZS with passion aswell (no idea why toonlink tho).
But people play at tourneys, what will get them the win.
Some people can -see- what characters can do, like Mew^2, defeating mew2king with... guess it? A mewtwo.
Because he saw the riddance of all of mewtwo's problems in the last few patches, and used the inexperience of top level players against mewtwo, to actually do pretty decent and well, and it has yet to stop to show.

Same with Zero believing in the insane potential shulk has.

But there is a simple difference. There is money to be won at tourneys, so they play with what they can win.
And that's currently simply not shulk. That's what holds most characters back to be honest.

 

[mario123007]

I do understand your rage, and I do hate ZZS with passion aswell (no idea why toonlink tho).
But people play at tourneys, what will get them the win.
Some people can -see- what characters can do, like Mew^2, defeating mew2king with... guess it? A mewtwo.
Because he saw the riddance of all of mewtwo's problems in the last few patches, and used the inexperience of top level players against mewtwo, to actually do pretty decent and well, and it has yet to stop to show.

Same with Zero believing in the insane potential shulk has.

But there is a simple difference. There is money to be won at tourneys, so they play with what they can win.
And that's currently simply not shulk. That's what holds most characters back to be honest.

I had once wanted to main ZSS, but never really use her that often, maybe it's because I don't really have a passion of using her. I was never a Metriod fan, and so far I use characters I like. I rarely main a character simply because of tier list. I will use Shulk more often than not, along with Mario, Cloud and Rosalina.

 

[LasermasterA]

You know, there are just so many different kinds of augments that I frankly find it quite tedious to click through them all and try to determine which are the 'best.' What exactly was your criteria for making the 'best' augments?

We're talking about XCX right?

Well actually I was talking about the original Xenoblade. Did I mention augments instead of gems? Oops.

In Xenoblade X, I am however in the process of making the 'best' augments. That would probably be Potential Up XX, 1 Potential Boost XX, a few Melee/Ranged Attack Up XX (for normal arts), Appedange Crusher (for getting the Ether flowing through the enemy's parts ), Weapon Attack Power Up XX, Arts: Gain TP XX and some others. Extend Overdrive XX helps in the start to maintain overdrive, and the Resistance augments are situational. Nullify Reflect also varies based on enemy. There are quite a few I am missing out on... since there are too many.

Oh and Firing Range Up XX too shoot the flying enemies out of the sky.

Rest depend on your playing style.

 

[Monado Master]

I do understand your rage, and I do hate ZZS with passion aswell (no idea why toonlink tho).
But people play at tourneys, what will get them the win.
Some people can -see- what characters can do, like Mew^2, defeating mew2king with... guess it? A mewtwo.
Because he saw the riddance of all of mewtwo's problems in the last few patches, and used the inexperience of top level players against mewtwo, to actually do pretty decent and well, and it has yet to stop to show.

Same with Zero believing in the insane potential shulk has.

But there is a simple difference. There is money to be won at tourneys, so they play with what they can win.
And that's currently simply not shulk. That's what holds most characters back to be honest.

I hate basically any super spammy characters that are found commonly on For Glory, which are: Rosalina, ZZS, Link, Toon Link, Corrin, Samus, ect. I don't hate Corrin or Samus because they're not very common, but those others that I just mentioned...THOSE characters.
The reasons you mentioned about why people play only "good" EZ bake, take your free win, spammy characters is why I'm pretty torn about going from Half Causal/ Half Competitive to Full Competitive. I want to be the best I can be at Smash, but I can't get better without fighting other people, but I don't wanna fight an endless amount of ZZs's, Rosalina, and Sheiks. Sheiks I don't really have a problem with, because I feel that it's still fair, unlike ZZS and Rosa. It's either play a character I hate and get better, or not be the best I can really be while continuing to play Shulk and others. Not entirely sure what to do here.