Social Shulk Social : Starting to feel it!

[Berserker.]

The Corrin speed nerf is COMPLETELY justified in my eyes. Him/Her having less speed means less Combos off of there totally not spamable Dragon Fang Shot. Though it feels a bit too slow. I feel like I'm playing Ganondorf now.

Corrin nerf didn't do much to be honest. Actually, pretty much all of her nerfs are nearly inconsequential. Lol. I mean, she was nerfed but she's literally the same character. She can still do dfs combos (including the footstool dfs tech), it's just slightly slightly slightly harder to do. Damage output nerfs were sort of buffs and nerfs. F-air deals less damage but F-air > DFS bite is MUCH easier to land now (thanks Sakurai). Their safety on shield is still the same also despite the nerf

The only noticeable nerf Corrin got was her counter damage being nerfed. But yeah, that's about it

Also, people make jokes about her mobility nerf being called "drastic" because it's the exact opposite

 

[LordTakeo]

I hate basically any super spammy characters that are found commonly on For Glory, which are: Rosalina, ZZS, Link, Toon Link, Corrin, Samus, ect. I don't hate Corrin or Samus because they're not very common, but those others that I just mentioned...THOSE characters.
The reasons you mentioned about why people play only "good" EZ bake, take your free win, spammy characters is why I'm pretty torn about going from Half Causal/ Half Competitive to Full Competitive. I want to be the best I can be at Smash, but I can't get better without fighting other people, but I don't wanna fight an endless amount of ZZs's, Rosalina, and Sheiks. Sheiks I don't really have a problem with, because I feel that it's still fair, unlike ZZS and Rosa. It's either play a character I hate and get better, or not be the best I can really be while continuing to play Shulk and others. Not entirely sure what to do here.

Just learn how to beat them. I am currently playing mewtwo, and am having a blast. I have yet to loose against zero skill samus, or similar spammy characters.
Just loose occasionally against pretty skilled Marios tho.

Corrin nerf didn't do much to be honest. Actually, pretty much all of her nerfs are nearly inconsequential. Lol. I mean, she was nerfed but she's literally the same character. She can still do dfs combos (including the footstool dfs tech), it's just slightly slightly slightly harder to do. Damage output nerfs were sort of buffs and nerfs. F-air deals less damage but F-air > DFS bite is MUCH easier to land now (thanks Sakurai). Their safety on shield is still the same also despite the nerf

The only noticeable nerf Corrin got was her counter damage being nerfed. But yeah, that's about it

Also, people make jokes about her mobility nerf being called "drastic" because it's the exact opposite

Isn't it kinda exactly what nerves should be? Not destroying characters, but making them harder to play towards perfectiong, rewarding skill more?

 

[-m0]

Hey what's up yall. I've been playing a lot of Shulk lately and I'm considering him as a casual secondary. I got a couple questions first off. Can you cancel airdodges with Arts? Can Arts be wavebounced? (not like I can wavebounce lol) How good is Shulk's running shield? It feels pretty good but I want to clarify this.

 

[LordTakeo]

Hey what's up yall. I've been playing a lot of Shulk lately and I'm considering him as a casual secondary. I got a couple questions first off. Can you cancel airdodges with Arts? Can Arts be wavebounced? (not like I can wavebounce lol) How good is Shulk's running shield? It feels pretty good but I want to clarify this.

You can b-reverse with Arts, you can cancel landing laag with arts, you even get a few invincibility frames along the cancel, making whatever you do after the cancel 100% save. But needs pretty good times, kinda a hard thing for newcomers.
It's called MALLC even.

Running shield... huh, never really looked at that.

 

[Monado Master]

Just learn how to beat them. I am currently playing mewtwo, and am having a blast. I have yet to loose against zero skill samus, or similar spammy characters.
Just loose occasionally against pretty skilled Marios tho.


Isn't it kinda exactly what nerves should be? Not destroying characters, but making them harder to play towards perfectiong, rewarding skill more?

By Skilled Marios, do you mean Down Throw to Utilt about 20 times then like 10 Uairs, or actually good Marios?
For some reason I do better against Rosa and ZZS with Mewtwo. Probably his Shadow Ball, reflector and early killing on light characters. Oh well.
Well, in other news I showed my band teacher an orchestra version of a song from Undertale and asked him if we could play it next year for a concert. He said if I bring him a score for it he'd think about it...You guys, have no idea, how excited I am that I have the chance to play an Undertale song in band. Time to spend hours upon hours writing though...Worth it. The song name is Bergentruckung. And here's the link to the song I showed my band teacher. *Undertale Spoilers*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vddGcroEJ-E

 

[-m0]

You can b-reverse with Arts, you can cancel landing laag with arts, you even get a few invincibility frames along the cancel, making whatever you do after the cancel 100% save. But needs pretty good times, kinda a hard thing for newcomers.
It's called MALLC even.

Running shield... huh, never really looked at that.

You've heard of canceling airdodges with aerials and specials right? That's what I'm referring to. Arts are weird and unique, and I've been trying to cancel my SH and FH airdodges with them, and it doesn't seem to be working. I know about MALLC, I just haven't invested time in it yet, just picked up the character.

Also I heard that to truly become a Shulk main and be accepted here you have to show a clip of getting a Backslash on someone and taunting. Well I got yall sometime today. Personally I always taunt whenever I get a Backslash on somebody's back.

 

[AlvisCPU]

Hey what's up yall. I've been playing a lot of Shulk lately and I'm considering him as a casual secondary. I got a couple questions first off. Can you cancel airdodges with Arts? Can Arts be wavebounced? (not like I can wavebounce lol) How good is Shulk's running shield? It feels pretty good but I want to clarify this.

1) I... don't think so? Don't quote me on that, I just don't recall having seen it in my own play. Art activation has some invincibility frames but that's not what you're after.
2) Yes. I can't wavebounce either, but I accidentally did it once and it stopped me from falling into an f-smash.
3) I'm not sure what defines the quality of running shield, nor how he compares to other characters, but his running shield is absolutely essential under Speed art. I think it's pretty good.

 

[-m0]

All characters can shield from a run. But it takes some characters more frames than others to put up shield. IIRC Sheik has a really god running shield for example

 

[AlvisCPU]

Wasn't aware that frames changed for something like that. Well, I can't tell you more than "Yeah, it does feel like it's a pretty good one."

------------

This is what I can find (not sure how recent it is, or if it's ever changed)
http://smashboards.com/threads/this-is-the-monados-power-metagame-discussion.369285/
"Dash to Shield as 普 翔 疾盾 斬 撃 | Total Frames= 10 / FAF: 11"
Not sure if that's good or not, but that's that.

 

[-m0]

aay good lookin out

All I can really say is that it feels pretty good too lol

 

[Monado Master]

You've heard of canceling airdodges with aerials and specials right? That's what I'm referring to. Arts are weird and unique, and I've been trying to cancel my SH and FH airdodges with them, and it doesn't seem to be working. I know about MALLC, I just haven't invested time in it yet, just picked up the character.

Also I heard that to truly become a Shulk main and be accepted here you have to show a clip of getting a Backslash on someone and taunting. Well I got yall sometime today. Personally I always taunt whenever I get a Backslash on somebody's back.

I've never seen Arts cancel Air Dodges, so Ima say no you can't. I'm goin' be honest here, I don't know what wavebouncing is. And Shulks running Shield is NEEDED against spammy characters.

 

[-m0]

Monado Master You've heard of b-reversing right? Wavebouncing is similar to that except it also reverses your momentum as well as the special move. If you've ever watched pro Lucario play, they use wavebounced aura sphere a whole lot. Here's a video that goes into more detail on it.

 

[Rawbinator]

You can MALLC air dodges to cancel the landing lag like anything else. I don't think that's what m0 is talking about though.

I'm not QUITE sure what you mean by cancelling the air dodge...Shulk can short hop air dodge (SHAD) with no landing lag, although there's not enough air time to get an aerial out.

I have heard of cancelling air dodge landing with a special though. Can't remember if Shield or Speed Shulk autocancel SHAD, but someone like Meta Knight for example cannot SHAD without landing lag, but the landing can be cancelled by mashing a special so you could SHAD --> Tornado for example (at least I think you can lol)

Though I don't think you can just air dodge into the ground and mash a special, it needs to be near the end of the air dodge

 

[LordTakeo]

You can MALLC air dodges to cancel the landing lag like anything else. I don't think that's what m0 is talking about though.

I'm not QUITE sure what you mean by cancelling the air dodge...Shulk can short hop air dodge (SHAD) with no landing lag, although there's not enough air time to get an aerial out.

I think she means autocancelling, but am not completely sure.

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

Hey what's up yall. I've been playing a lot of Shulk lately and I'm considering him as a casual secondary. I got a couple questions first off. Can you cancel airdodges with Arts? Can Arts be wavebounced? (not like I can wavebounce lol) How good is Shulk's running shield? It feels pretty good but I want to clarify this.

1. If you air dodge into the ground you can cancel the lag with a MALLC. If you are in the air, though, an art activation will not cancel out the air dodge animation.
2. I'm pretty sure. The wavebounce maneuver must be done when the Monado Art activates, though, not when B is initially pressed. I haven't learned wavebouncing MAs myself (only B-reversing), but I do remember Shulkified saying something about that you can in fact wavebounce MAs.
3. Shulk can cancel his run with shield almost immediately, so yeah, I would say it's very good. It's comparable to Ike's running shield. Speed mode + running perfect shield is super effective for approaching projectile campy characters.

 

[-m0]

LordTakeo I'm a guy lol, I just love Tifa.

A mechanic introduced in Smash 4 was the ability to cancel the ending part of airdodges into special moves or aerials. For example Cloud cannot SHAD without landing lag, but if he interrupts it with down b he lands without lag charging Limit. FH airdodge cancelled into aerials or specials has been a large part of my game lately, and while trying to FH airdodge nuetral b with Shulk I noticed that it took longer to get the move out than if I had interrupted the airdodge with Air Slash/Backslash. This made me wonder if another unique property of the Arts was the inability to cancel airdodge ending lag with them.

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

A mechanic introduced in Smash 4 was the ability to cancel the ending part of airdodges into special moves or aerials. For example Cloud cannot SHAD without landing lag, but if he interrupts it with down b he lands without lag charging Limit. FH airdodge cancelled into aerials or specials has been a large part of my game lately, and while trying to FH airdodge nuetral b with Shulk I noticed that it took longer to get the move out than if I had interrupted the airdodge with Air Slash/Backslash. This made me wonder if another unique property of the Arts was the inability to cancel airdodge ending lag with them.
oh and I'm a guy

Well, perhaps then. I can't test it right now, but perhaps you should ask Masonomace. He's pretty knowledgable when it comes to little mechanics like that.

 

[Rawbinator]

I would guess that you cannot, at least not in the conventional sense similar to how you cannot B-reverse and wavebounce the arts in the normal way.

Actually, it sounds like for Shulk to do it with arts is the same thing as a MALLC, if you consider the "real" special move the art activation and not when you input b

-m0

 

[-m0]

I guess that makes sense...

 

[Monado Master]

Monado Master You've heard of b-reversing right? Wavebouncing is similar to that except it also reverses your momentum as well as the special move. If you've ever watched pro Lucario play, they use wavebounced aura sphere a whole lot. Here's a video that goes into more detail on it.

Ok. Yea I remember now. Its that thing I try to do a lot and fail 99% of the time. I believe you can Wavebounce the Arts, not when you hit B, but when they actually activate and Shulk does little pose.
Edit: Just checked. Yes you can, but it's nothing special. Maybe if you have Jump or Speed on and you change arts really fast, but it'll be pretty obvious after the first time you do it.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

WELP. Larry Lurr (AKA one of the world's best Foxes AKA Shulk's worst matchup probably) is in my Pound pool. Tell the folks at Monolith I'm sorry I never finished their games.

Nah, but seriously I've got some labbing to do this week. Even disregarding him, Zephyr and GoldenJoe are both up on sets against me (though I'm technically tied against Zephyr's Cloud...). With apparently the top 3 making it out I've still got a shot at this.

 

[dhblademaster]

I know what you mean with the top Foxes. I got Nakat in my pool. I'm honestly not setting my expectations to high. That way, if I do win a set, then the day becomes so much more fun! Good luck!

 

[-m0]

Which throw do you guys like? I think Shulk's throws are all excellent tbh (though this is coming from a Cloud player). My favorite is fthrow due to its nice damage and speed, and the string potential behind it. I've gotten fthrow -> usmash/uair multiple times for a kill. And when it comes to airdodge baits, no one can surpass uthrow. Bthrow does a lot of damage, and dthrow is our forward-facing kill throw in Smash. I think my least used throw is dthrow.

 

[mario123007]

Which throw do you guys like? I think Shulk's throws are all excellent tbh (though this is coming from a Cloud player). My favorite is fthrow due to its nice damage and speed, and the string potential behind it. I've gotten fthrow -> usmash/uair multiple times for a kill. And when it comes to airdodge baits, no one can surpass uthrow. Bthrow does a lot of damage, and dthrow is our forward-facing kill throw in Smash. I think my least used throw is dthrow.

I prefer using Back throw + Smash arts when I'm at the edge, or I could just D throw+ Smash arts. I remember I watch a combo video of doing back throw + speed arts(Or maybe works without arts?)>>Back Slash at the beginning can linked as a combo, but I'm not really sure.

 

[AlvisCPU]

Which throw do you guys like? I think Shulk's throws are all excellent tbh (though this is coming from a Cloud player). My favorite is fthrow due to its nice damage and speed, and the string potential behind it. I've gotten fthrow -> usmash/uair multiple times for a kill. And when it comes to airdodge baits, no one can surpass uthrow. Bthrow does a lot of damage, and dthrow is our forward-facing kill throw in Smash. I think my least used throw is dthrow.

Pretty sure that dthrow combos and kills better than fthrow, so I don't use fthrow much at all. I don't use uthrow as much as I should.

 

[FOcast]

Dthrow combos better than any other throw, so we should definitely use it at low percents. But after it stops allowing for followups, stop using it! Firstly because it deals less damage than Fthrow and Bthrow, but more importantly because of move staling. If you keep using Dthrow against enemies at 90-110%, the staled damage and knockback will cause it to end up killing much later than if you kept the throw fresh and only used it when it can actually seal the deal.

 

[Berserker.]

Staling.... This reminds me, falln came up with a video about staling? You guys have any thoughts on it?

 

[-m0]

Pretty sure that dthrow combos and kills better than fthrow, so I don't use fthrow much at all. I don't use uthrow as much as I should.

Dthrow does less damage than fthrow and doesn't have any followups that fthrow doesn't outside of dthrow -> fair in speed at low percents I think. Tbh fthrow is pretty bad, sort of the "jack of all trades throw, master of none". However I think dthrow's angle is higher and it has more endlag making it less likely to string into uair or usmash at higher percents. And uthrow is great. I prefer uthrow over a true combo throw simply for all the mindgame/trapping potential it has.

 

[FOcast]

Welp, can't watch the video right now, but from the wiki:

While the freshness bonus of 1.05x damage remains, the damage calculation is slightly altered, with the damage reduction from staleness being slightly less than it was in Brawl on the whole, with a fully-staled move dealing about 53% of its normal damage as opposed to 45%. More significantly however, the knockback reduction from stale-move negation is drastically less severe; the additional knockback required to KO as a move is staled rises at a meager amount, at less than half the damage dealt by the move each time it enters the stale queue. As a result, the damage dealt by KO moves will easily override the knockback loss to staleness outside of extreme cases, and like in Melee, players do not need to actively concern themselves with preserving the usage of KO moves. This change also prevents the exploitation of staleness to chain a single low-knockback move well beyond normal.

Looks like Falln's right about this one. Still, I stand by using Fthrow instead of Dthrow after mid%. Fthrow does significantly more damage (11% to 7%), and lets you act very quickly afterwards. Also, for those who play doubles, Fthrow is our shortest throw, making it the go-to option when its possible for people to interrupt you.

 

[-m0]

Fthrow is good yall! You must see the light!

 

[LordTakeo]

Staling.... This reminds me, falln came up with a video about staling? You guys have any thoughts on it?

There was once a video about staling on Smashboards hot news once. Been a while actually.
But yeah, I think staling shouldn't influence it. It's nice to know about it, and maybe keep one kill option free of staling, but... otherwise, I agree with the video.

 

[-m0]

Just thought I'd put these images I took here. Let me know if I should upload more!

Spoiler

 

[Solfiner]

Not sure if this was answered -m0 but you can wavebounce the art activation which can result in some fun mix-ups.

Here is an example.

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

Not sure if this was answered -m0 but you can wavebounce the art activation which can result in some fun mix-ups.

Here is an example.

That just looks like a B-reverse to me.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sma...=smash+4+wavebounce+gif&imgrc=MRDPH9AjKakGhM:
The first one is a standard B-reverse. The second one is a wavebounce.

 

[Solfiner]

That just looks like a B-reverse to me.
https://www.google.com/search?q=smash+4+wavebounce&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#hl=en&q=smash+4+wavebounce+gif&imgrc=MRDPH9AjKakGhM:
The first one is a standard B-reverse. The second one is a wavebounce.

Ah, yeah you're right. After doing some testing I don't think wavebouncing is possible since he gets locked in the art activation animation which makes it so he can't reverse it. Ah well, the B reverse is fun at least.

 

[Monado Master]

Which throw do you guys like? I think Shulk's throws are all excellent tbh (though this is coming from a Cloud player). My favorite is fthrow due to its nice damage and speed, and the string potential behind it. I've gotten fthrow -> usmash/uair multiple times for a kill. And when it comes to airdodge baits, no one can surpass uthrow. Bthrow does a lot of damage, and dthrow is our forward-facing kill throw in Smash. I think my least used throw is dthrow.

Shulk's throws are garbage. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I don't think Shulk has a true combo off of his throws. Just about anything off of his throws are super obvious and I don't think there's anything that kills from throws either. I will say that with the smash art, his down throw has the power of Ness's Back throw.
Edit: Do you know how much better Shulk would be if they gave him a buff like they did to DK? I would actually use Shulks grabs then...

 

[Berserker.]

Shulks has a true combo off from d-throw

He can combo f-air off from d-throw.. aaaand yeah. That's about it

Other than that, Shulk's throws overall are not that great tbh. they're better in buster and smash art though but outside of those 2 arts, he doesn't really get much out of his throws in the other arts. jump art u-throw > air slash only deals 19.5% damage which isn't that much and the second hit even has a chance of whiffing because reasons

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

Down throw backwards nair also true combos in Speed at low percents, though fair is generally a better option. Also I'm fairly certain fthrow PP fsmash in Speed mode is a true combo at like 0%. Down throw -> Air Slash true combos at around 20% in Buster. Finally, in training mode with Jump art I've gotten up throw -> JABD forward air to true combo on Sheik at 125% if Sheik DIs forward. Not particularly useful, obviously.

 

[-m0]

Shulk's throws are garbage. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I don't think Shulk has a true combo off of his throws. Just about anything off of his throws are super obvious and I don't think there's anything that kills from throws either. I will say that with the smash art, his down throw has the power of Ness's Back throw.
Edit: Do you know how much better Shulk would be if they gave him a buff like they did to DK? I would actually use Shulks grabs then...

Hello? Shulk's throws are NOT garbage. Just because they don't true combo does NOT mean they are bad. Bthrow does enough damage that you don't need to combo off it. Fthrow is fast and puts them offstage or near the ledge so we can edgegaurd with minimal lag compared to dthrow and does decent damage. It's low endlag and angle also lets us get uair and usmash strings off of it. Uthrow is great as well. There is NO better throw for baiting and punishing airdodges than Shulk's uthrow. Maybe you guys want better throws, but I love his throws. I guess coming from Cloud gives me bias?

AlvisCPU You seem like a pretty good player, are there any videos of your Shulk I can watch? Really trying to gitgud at this game

 

[Solfiner]

Shulk's throws are fantastic for positioning.

Hello? Shulk's throws are NOT garbage. Just because they don't true combo does NOT mean they are bad. Bthrow does enough damage that you don't need to combo off it. Fthrow is fast and puts them offstage or near the ledge so we can edgegaurd with minimal lag compared to dthrow and does decent damage. It's low endlag and angle also lets us get uair and usmash strings off of it. Uthrow is great as well. There is NO better throw for baiting and punishing airdodges than Shulk's uthrow. Maybe you guys want better throws, but I love his throws. I guess coming from Cloud gives me bias?

AlvisCPU You seem like a pretty good player, are there any videos of your Shulk I can watch? Really trying to gitgud at this game

This is my friend's Shulk, he's currently second on anther's ladder.