Shrine Maiden of Paradise ~ Reimu Hakurei (Touhou Project)

[zferolie]

Didn't really thought about it much but after entering this speculation bubble, some came up. Mostly the games I spent the most time with.

1. Reimu
I'm a big Touhou fan so its obviously Touhou I'm rooting for. It is one of the few franchises that I followed for almost 10 years now, still going strong and had a significant impact on my life. Reimu wouldn't be my first choice but it doesn't make sense putting someone else there. She is the face of the series and has a wide array of unique abilities, which 2 already existing fighting games have already demonstrated. Who else is more fitting than the fetishized armpit fantasy of yore?

2. Nameless Undead - Dark Souls
No a likely one but still an interesting character nonetheless. He/she could be implemented to switch between weapons/builds alá Soul of Cinder and offer a unique style that is more than swordie with magic. I've played through all of From Softwares Soulsbone games multiple times so it is another franchise that I care about. Not sure how the ressurection mechanic could be implemented but still, a Dark Souls rep. would be nice.

3. Monster Hunter
Another franchise that I've put way to much time in. We already have Rathalos as a boss and the series wants to focus on the monsters, not the hunters. Still, the hunter brings so much on the table with so many different weapontypes. With so many games on Nintendo platforms, it would surprise me if we wouldn't see the Monster Hunter at some point.

4. Marina Liteyears - Mischief Makers
Alright, this one is a bit out there. An obscure platformer for the N64 not many have heard of, but its still a game I hold dearly. It was one of the games I got with my N64 and just loved it. It became almost a habit playing through the game every now and then. Not sure how shaking your enemy makes for an interesting fighting concept but hearing Marina say "shake shake" every time you grab an enemy would be hilarious.

God i would love it if Marina showed up but thats a pipe dream of mine and tried to jeep my list somewhat reasonable. But she would be amazing and i would spam shake shake

 

[GKMLTTSB]

So with 11 characters near confirmed left, what is your wishlist of those 11?

1. Elenor Camuel - I'd like to see ORPGs get some love, and PSO is something both important to me and to the growth of the genre on consoles. Elenor is the most visually recognizable of all the archetype characters, IMO and, being a ranger, she'd bring fun gameplay options with her. Base her moves on the different guns from PSO (with her MAG throwing out some attacks as well), give her Photon Blast Estlla as a Final Smash, a symbol art and photon chair taunt, and it would be a lot of fun.
2. Kevin Keene - Captain N needs to come back. Full stop. It's the original Nintendo crossover series and a revival could get Nintendo it's own version of Kingdom Hearts. In terms of his abilities in Smash, Kevin used Nintendo peripherals as his kit in the series, and there have been a lot of peripherals introduced since. Give him a Ring-con as a projector or trap, a Balance Board to glide on, Joycon knuckles/blades, a Wii-U tablet to call in support, etc.
3. Haruka Amami - Idol games have been big for the last decade+ and Haruka would be the ideal character to represent that genre (and would give us a rhythm rep in general). I like a number of idols better, actually, but Haruka is the face of the series and I do still like her, so let she can handle it (or they can give us up to 8 idols as different skins). If there isn't a huge legal hassle with the music, imagine all the great tracks we could get as well.
4. Alexandra Roivas - Usually horror protagonists don't really have much to offer, and I'd say one of the antagonists works better, but Alex is one of the few characters that legitimately does have an interesting kit, between firearms, a magical sword, and lovecraftian magick (summoning horrors, going invisible, enchanting weapons, etc.) Plus, Eternal Darkness needs the attention. :-(
5. Quinty - Quinty was Game Freak's first title, and it had an interesting approach to combat. Rather than fighting traditionally, you shuffled your enemies into walls. Carton is the actual protagonist of the game, while Quinty is the antagonist, but she seems like the more interesting character and has more abilities at her disposal. She can jump around the arena like crazy, summon dolls of various types (usually ninjas) to help her, and transform her opponents into dolls temporarily. The latter ability may be too powerful for Smash, but maybe they could work something out. For a Final Smash, she could step on a Sun Tile and shuffle the entire arena.
6. Carmen Sandiego - Where in the World of Light is Carmen Sandiego?... She's been around since 1985 and is probably the face of Edutainment games. From just utilizing the gadgets she's seen working with throughout the games (and associated media) to referencing her ability to steal essentially anything, no matter how impractical or insane, there's plenty you could do to make her fun.
7. Shantotto - While I have more of a personal attachment to FFXIV, if an online FF character were to get in, it needs to be Shantotto. She's been the go-to crossover character for XI for a long while now, and she's just plain fun. Would be better if we had the potential to get a rhyme-off between her and Gruntilda, but alas... Between her traditional spells and her ability to grow (or summon giant golems in her likeness), she could be incredibly entertaining.
8. Segata Sanshiro - You must play Sega Saturn.
9. Sakura Shinguji - I'm actually more partial to Erica Fontaine (Gun Nun is love), but if you're adding a Sakura Wars rep, it should probably be someone named Sakura. >_> Sakura is another character that would represent multiple genres since the games are kind of a mash-up. I'm not sure how much the Koubu could play into her moveset, but you could mix that in with traditional swordplay and call in the entire Imperial Floral Assault Group for her Final Smash. Plus, we'd get Geki! Teikoku Kagekidan! in Smash, and that's what really counts.
10. Reimu Hakurei - I've said it before, but Reimu wouldn't make my top 5 Touhou characters, or 10, or 20... But she is the face of the series, and the series as a whole deserves the recognition. It's a standout not only in the realm of indies, but in terms of gaming in general due to the massive community that produces and consumes fan content inspired by the series. Also, the music. <_<
11. Giana - The history of The Great Giana Sisters is amusing and novel. Starting as an unsanctioned Mario port, the first game was turned into its own thing, but was so blatant a ripoff it had to be recalled and the sequel was twisted into something else entirely. After decades, the property gets revived and actually receives an official release on Nintendo hardware. Then Twisted Dreams happens, and from that game, I can just see Giana being amazingly fun in Smash. Rapidly twisting between her two forms, with each having different combat properties could be great. Give her the soda-bottle from the DS games as a neutral B, and let her Final Smash represent the original Commodore 64 title by summoning all the advanced power-ups at once - as she strikes 3 '*' blocks simultaneously, she gets the lightning, double-lightning, and strawberry items, then blasts arcs of homing electricity from her fingertips. Give her a stage that twists between dream and nightmare form (either alongside her or independently) with each music track following suit, and it would be a novel experience.

 

[perfectchaos83]

You are mixing stuff up. My first statement wasn't about her chances in getting in. I was addressing your point about the "deconfirming" of characters and how fans and leakers are speaking, or in this case not speaking, about Reimu. And in this case, the relevancy certainly does matter as more people are asking for it and leaks for the character are more interesting, giving an incentive for leakers to talk about it.

My second statement was meant to clarify that my seemingly pessimistic viewpoint is due to my disbelieve of her actually getting into smash. Though I am sorry that I may have worded that poorly.

Eh, Verge just wrote off Falcom reps. I don't think being "too niche" is a reason she's not getting written off by insiders.

 

[cwbaaa]

Reimu is the only character I actively want. But I would very much be excited for Phoenix Wright and Chosen Undead.

2. Nameless Undead - Dark Souls
No a likely one but still an interesting character nonetheless. He/she could be implemented to switch between weapons/builds alá Soul of Cinder and offer a unique style that is more than swordie with magic. I've played through all of From Softwares Soulsbone games multiple times so it is another franchise that I care about. Not sure how the ressurection mechanic could be implemented but still, a Dark Souls rep. would be nice.

Chosen Undead actually has a lot more moveset potential than I think people realize and I get a little disappointed when I see people say Solaire would be a better character.

I’ve pondered on what they could do with Chosen Undead and I think they could make him a stance change character two different ways (although one is much more complex than the other):

1) Switching between wielding the weapon one-handed or two-handed. Obviously, two-handed moves will be a bit slower, but do more damage and knock back.

2) Base stance changes around the item slots in Dark Souls. For Smash Bros sake, it would be simplified to two slots: the left hand and the right hand. Each slot will have two items each. The left hand slot will have a Catalyst and a Talisman. The right hand slot will have a Long Sword and a Spear. The item in the right slot will determine attributes of the normal attacks with Sword having wider swings and Spear having faster and longer attacks. The item in the left hand will determine the properties of the specials save for the neutral. Pressing and holding the neutral special could allow the player to switch the items in the slots with the other item there by choosing a direction like Shulk’s Monado arts. While the Talisman is wielded Down-Special becomes Sunlight Blade, which enchants the weapon in the right-hand to increase damage and give a little stun for 15 seconds. Side-Special would become Emit Force, which charges up an orb of force with a good amount of knock back but little damage. Up-Special would become Homeward to let you teleport as a recovery. While the Catalyst is wielded, the Down-Special becomes White Dragon’s Breath which summons crystals from terrain in front of the player. Side-Special would become a Soul Arrow. Up-Special would summon Homing Soul Mass, meaning you’ll need to switch to Talisman to recover.

 

[Wrathful_Scythe]

Eh, Verge just wrote off Falcom reps. I don't think being "too niche" is a reason she's not getting written off by insiders.

Had to look up Falcom so yeah. Beloved JRPGs but certainly no Juggernauts. Just waiting for the day when Vergeben or Sabi is just deconfirming any Touhou rep in a side remark. Maybe tomorrow, maybe next week. We'll know by the 13th. At least its only true for the 5th slot.

Reimu is the only character I actively want. But I would very much be excited for Phoenix Wright and Chosen Undead.

Chosen Undead actually has a lot more moveset potential than I think people realize and I get a little disappointed when I see people say Solaire would be a better character.

I’ve pondered on what they could do with Chosen Undead and I think they could make him a stance change character two different ways (although one is much more complex than the other):

1) Switching between wielding the weapon one-handed or two-handed. Obviously, two-handed moves will be a bit slower, but do more damage and knock back.

2) Base stance changes around the item slots in Dark Souls. For Smash Bros sake, it would be simplified to two slots: the left hand and the right hand. Each slot will have two items each. The left hand slot will have a Catalyst and a Talisman. The right hand slot will have a Long Sword and a Spear. The item in the right slot will determine attributes of the normal attacks with Sword having wider swings and Spear having faster and longer attacks. The item in the left hand will determine the properties of the specials save for the neutral. Pressing and holding the neutral special could allow the player to switch the items in the slots with the other item there by choosing a direction like Shulk’s Monado arts. While the Talisman is wielded Down-Special becomes Sunlight Blade, which enchants the weapon in the right-hand to increase damage and give a little stun for 15 seconds. Side-Special would become Emit Force, which charges up an orb of force with a good amount of knock back but little damage. Up-Special would become Homeward to let you teleport as a recovery. While the Catalyst is wielded, the Down-Special becomes White Dragon’s Breath which summons crystals from terrain in front of the player. Side-Special would become a Soul Arrow. Up-Special would summon Homing Soul Mass, meaning you’ll need to switch to Talisman to recover.

Exactly! Thats the beauty (or problem) if you have an RPG character to implement. Way more possibilities of what the character can actually do in the game. And Dark Souls isn't class limited, so by the time you hit the endgame you are generally a jack of all trades (if you kitted your build that way), being able to use powerful magic, miracles and also using most weapons.

Solair, while a much beloved character, is limited to sword and miracles. I would love his armor as a skin but not him as a character.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

Is there a good way for the requests for Reimu to be known by Nintendo? Cause I feel like she could get in, just in like a "fighters pass 3" I guess.

 

[cwbaaa]

I feel like if they could deconfirm Touhou, they would have already. And no, I’m not saying Reimu is fighter 5. I just think it must be harder for them to get info on that compared to other stuff.

 

[perfectchaos83]

This is just a general observation, one I've alluded to before, Right now we are in a rather unique situation where a name is held by a small amount of people but absolutely no one wants to be the first to put that name out there. This leads me to believe on of two things or both.

1. The character is not obvious (Nor are there any major credible leaks pointing to this character). This is where Lloyd comes in. As the speculation climate is right now, he's being thought of as likely by damn near everyone is thinking he's next. If that's the case, then I don't see the harm in saying it's the super obvious character because you'd still really have no way for Nintendo to find out if it was a leak or a very good guess. This then comes to the Major leak part. Reimu's on 2 leaks, neither I'd consider major as both lack a smoking gun. If either did have a Smoking gun, I'd imagine someone would have spoken up about them by now.

2. The pool of people that know who the character is is obscenely small and easy to track. This is something that points in favor to Reimu, imo. Being from a small company inherently means that very few know that she's even in. Basically, it would be Delegated to Zun, his laywer, Sakurai, Key Nintendo members and Key developers, testers and maybe musicians. All things considered, that's a small pool of people and near 99% of them would be in Japan. In the west, where Touhou doesn't exactly have a licensing party, the amount of people that should know are Key Nintendo people and a portion of the treehouse staff and testers. If you get that information from a western source then just saying Reimu is in Smash would easily weed out who said it. Now, That's not to say it is Reimu, Just using her as an example to illustrate my thoughts.

IMO, it's either one of these or both of these that have really driven the current speculation climate the past month or so.

 

[Guritsu]

Am I the only one who honestly doesn't see Lloyd getting in anytime soon? Maybe in fighter pass 2, but I just don't see them being the last fighter pass character after everyone so far has been pretty unique in terms of their movesets to make them stand out from eachother. I really can't imagine Sakurai adding yet another swordfighter RPG protagonist in the same pack, especially one that uses magic when we've already got Hero, so I really don't see Lloyd as the 5th character and see a lot of the people speculating he's the most likely character as bandwagoning. Nothing against those that want him, I just don't see him being the 5th character.

My ideal one will always be Reimu, but other than that I'd love Chosen Undead, Doomslayer or KOS-MOS. Only recently warmed up to KOS-MOS because I want to give Xenogears a run someday and I find KOS-MOS' design to honestly be super rad, plus it'd be nice to have at least 1 female character in the pack just for the sake of variety. Though at the same time I honestly still think Reimu has a surprisingly possible chance at getting in; the Doujin leak hasn't been debunked and the attempt to debunk it only resulted in it being more plausible than we might've guessed. Add that to the nature of Doujin circles and how hard it'd be to place all of them under NDA and I can genuinely see the leak having the possibility of being real, in terms of pure circumstances I think Reimu has a far bigger chance than people are willing to give her credit for. That said, I still think she's more likely to be a character in the 2nd pass, but I still really have to wonder who the hell fighter #5 might be at this rate, the amount of apparent deconfirmations going around make me feel like it'll be either someone we never saw coming or someone who hasn't been eliminated yet by the deconfirmations (KOS-MOS is the one I want most out of the apparent list, doubt she'd be revealed in TGA though.)

 

[Wrathful_Scythe]

Regarding Llyod, I have no horse in the race. Before he was brought up here again and again I didn't even knew who he was. Even more surprising is that the people, who are rooting for him, deem him as a really recognisable character that almost everyone knows. For JRPG fans that may be but I only played Tales of Vesperia for a few hours until I gave up on the game. In the end Llyod looks like another Swordie to me and I'm not really into that. A more unique character would be preferable. But if he is such a beloved character, who am I to talk him down.

There are some interesting potential characters left but its still 2 weeks to go and boy am I getting impatient.

 

[Deleted member]

There are some interesting potential characters left but its still 2 weeks to go and boy am I getting impatient.

Anyone can get deconfirmed easily during that span. It's usually within the last few weeks that deconfirmations stale.

 

[cwbaaa]

I think out of all the characters still in the running for this last fighter, Lloyd is the only one I would consider likely. If he gets deconfirmed for fighter 5, then this is truly up in the air. And from what I hear, Sabi is apparently looking into Lloyd’s rumors, so it’s possible that may soon be thrown out the window.

I think Phoenix Wright is probably leading in Capcom characters for now, given that the MonHun team prefers Monster Hunter represented with the monsters rather than the hunter as well as Monster Hunter’s current presence in the game through Rathalos and music being classified under the Other category. I still have a lot of reservations about Phoenix’s chances mostly because I would find it very uncharacteristic of Capcom to put in Ace Attorney before Devil May Cry.

I’m still very skeptical of the Doujin rumor and still find the Cat leak hard to believe, too. They’re really just text leaks with very little to go on with the current information. I left the Reimu discord because it was getting ridiculous how much conspiracy-level straw grasping people were doing there to justify the cat leak, even though we can only take a “wait and see” approach for it until fighter 5 is revealed. If KOS-MOS happens to be fighter 5, Cat gets a point, but I’m still not banking on it, especially since that would really be the first tangible merit it gets.

But again, fighter 5 can be anyone at this point, especially if Lloyd gets deconfirmed. I’m fully expecting it to be an unexpected character like Gradius/Ikaruga pilot.

 

[Guritsu]

I think out of all the characters still in the running for this last fighter, Lloyd is the only one I would consider likely. If he gets deconfirmed for fighter 5, then this is truly up in the air. And from what I hear, Sabi is apparently looking into Lloyd’s rumors, so it’s possible that may soon be thrown out the window.

I think Phoenix Wright is probably leading in Capcom characters for now, given that the MonHun team prefers Monster Hunter represented with the monsters rather than the hunter as well as Monster Hunter’s current presence in the game through Rathalos and music being classified under the Other category. I still have a lot of reservations about Phoenix’s chances mostly because I would find it very uncharacteristic of Capcom to put in Ace Attorney before Devil May Cry.

I’m still very skeptical of the Doujin rumor and still find the Cat leak hard to believe, too. They’re really just text leaks with very little to go on with the current information. I left the Reimu discord because it was getting ridiculous how much conspiracy-level straw grasping people were doing there to justify the cat leak, even though we can only take a “wait and see” approach for it until fighter 5 is revealed. If KOS-MOS happens to be fighter 5, Cat gets a point, but I’m still not banking on it, especially since that would really be the first tangible merit it gets.

But again, fighter 5 can be anyone at this point, especially if Lloyd gets deconfirmed. I’m fully expecting it to be an unexpected character like Gradius/Ikaruga pilot.

I hadn't considered Phoenix but he'd be an excellent Capcom rep in my eyes. I think the Doujin leak has a lot more going for it than the Cat leak, I don't understand why that leak in particular is seen as more prominent than the Doujin one when the circumstantial evidence of the Doujin leak gives it far bigger a chance of being credible; the "proof" given by the leaker of the concept art for Touhou 17.5 turning out to be sourced independently off the developer's twitter implies the leaker is actually someone who works for Tasofro, unless they're just doing this all for a prank I think the Doujin leaker honestly seems far more credible than most of the current leakers we have on the west side. Like perfectchaos said as well, it'd also make a lot of sense why Reimu hasn't been mentioned or confirmed/deconfirmed by any of the Western "insider" sources yet considering the unique state of Touhou's development and all the probable work for her inclusion being tied to Japan. I'm not saying she's a definite, but I do think her chances have been slept on quite a bit when a ton of circumstantial evidence has only been growing over the past few months.

Again however I can't say I see why so many people think Lloyd is likely. It was either Sakurai or Reggie that stated that they wanted the fighter pass to target different audiences not so properly represented in Smash yet, Lloyd in my opinion doesn't really seem like he'd add anything new to the mix. We have Joker and Hero heavily representing JRPGs, both series with fantastic amounts of legacy, Banjo being a highly-requested character for ages while also representing platforming/collectathon games and the N64, and Terry representing the entirety of SNK in a sense and a series that actually influenced the development of Smash Bros itself. Not only would Lloyd just be representing another JRPG series but he'd quite likely have a moveset similar to the other swordfighter characters unless Sakurai pulled out all the stops to make yet another variation on the swordfighter character type for the game. I honestly think Lloyd's only chance would be in a second fighter pass because I doubt they're going to end the fighter pass with a genre that's gotten quite a lot of representation in Smash recently, idealistically it'll be a character that has an entirely unique moveset or main-gimmick much like the other fighters.

 

[Rikarte]

Regarding Llyod, I have no horse in the race. Before he was brought up here again and again I didn't even knew who he was. Even more surprising is that the people, who are rooting for him, deem him as a really recognisable character that almost everyone knows. For JRPG fans that may be but I only played Tales of Vesperia for a few hours until I gave up on the game. In the end Llyod looks like another Swordie to me and I'm not really into that. A more unique character would be preferable. But if he is such a beloved character, who am I to talk him down.

There are some interesting potential characters left but its still 2 weeks to go and boy am I getting impatient.

I only know Lloyd from Super Smash Flash, never played any of the Tales games. However, I'm aware that it is one of the best selling RPG franchises out there and Symphonia especially seems to be the one people associate with Nintendo the most so it's easy to see why they would pick him.
But yeah, I don't think he's happening now. Having 3/5 of the FP characters be from RPGs would be weiiird.

 

[ArchRanger]

I really can't imagine Sakurai adding yet another swordfighter RPG protagonist in the same pack, especially one that uses magic when we've already got Hero, so I really don't see Lloyd as the 5th character and see a lot of the people speculating he's the most likely character as bandwagoning.

Having 3/5 of the FP characters be from RPGs would be weiiird.

I feel that way too many people put too much emphasis into genres and Nintendo making their decisions based off of genre diversity. While I know that many people like to fill their wishlists with characters to rep certain genres (myself included) but I don't think Nintendo has any interest or even notices that they're is an imaginary fan-made quota that must be met. Same goes with color theory and them making costly decisions off of random color association. RPG characters are the most requested (see Geno, Isaac, Sora, etc) and the reason is because players spend extensive amount of time with these characters, getting to know them over the course of generally lengthy games (another Smashboards user made this point and I wish I could link to the OG post since it was a great read and makes a ton of points.

I mean if Nintendo really cared about genre representation in the Fighter Pass, would they of released two JRPG characters back to back and to start the pass on top of that? Imagining the conversation at Nintendo is quite funny actually:

-Sakurai: Ok, so we have finalized our decisions. The 5 DLC characters will be Isaac, Hero, Geno, Sora, and Banjo & Kazooie. These are the most requested characters we have seen consistently over the years and would be a great addition to my magnum opus.
-Nintendo: Woah woah woah... hold on there, bud. That is waayyyyy too many RPG characters. We need you to trim some of them down.
-Sakurai: ...but they are highly requested and I'd enjoy working on them. I think they would be fine additions to the roster.
-Nintendo: Nope, too much RPG and we get enough complaints from the fan base about too many anime swordfighters so we are going to need you to reduce those selections down and choose some more genre variety from the list. Also, we want to hype up Persona 5 so we need to put Joker in there.
-Sakurai: If we get these characters in, it will truly be the Ultimate version of Smash with so many big requests being added.
-Nintendo: Doesn't matter. Testing groups show that genre variety sells more so please select 3 new characters. Hell, we will be generous and allow you to keep Hero since DQ is so big but NO MORE RPG CHARACTERS AFTER THAT!
Sakurai: You do realize that cuts out a lot of these potential newcomers on this list, right?
-Nintendo: Blah blah blah. We got 2 RPG characters, that's enough. There's a 3d platformer too so maybe throw in a fighter and a FPS rep or something. You'll figure it out like always. We will just release the others as Mii costumes and call it a day.
-Sakurai: Alright, I suppose a FPS character would give the western audience another rep.
-Nintendo: HOLD ON THERE! Only one western character and Banjo & Kazooie fills that spot. Try again.

Jokes aside, I just don't see Nintendo doing some 4d chess on making character selections based on the color of Joker's gloves or Banjo's pants nor do I believe there is some tally on a wall in their HQ that makes sure the genres are fairly represented in a video game DLC pass. Just my opinion though and had to state it after Lloyd has been pushed to front and center leading to a lot of people saying it's impossible or very unlikely due to there being 2 RPG characters already in.

 

[TheTuninator]

Am I the only one who honestly doesn't see Lloyd getting in anytime soon? Maybe in fighter pass 2, but I just don't see them being the last fighter pass character after everyone so far has been pretty unique in terms of their movesets to make them stand out from eachother. I really can't imagine Sakurai adding yet another swordfighter RPG protagonist in the same pack, especially one that uses magic when we've already got Hero, so I really don't see Lloyd as the 5th character and see a lot of the people speculating he's the most likely character as bandwagoning. Nothing against those that want him, I just don't see him being the 5th character.

My ideal one will always be Reimu, but other than that I'd love Chosen Undead, Doomslayer or KOS-MOS. Only recently warmed up to KOS-MOS because I want to give Xenogears a run someday and I find KOS-MOS' design to honestly be super rad, plus it'd be nice to have at least 1 female character in the pack just for the sake of variety. Though at the same time I honestly still think Reimu has a surprisingly possible chance at getting in; the Doujin leak hasn't been debunked and the attempt to debunk it only resulted in it being more plausible than we might've guessed. Add that to the nature of Doujin circles and how hard it'd be to place all of them under NDA and I can genuinely see the leak having the possibility of being real, in terms of pure circumstances I think Reimu has a far bigger chance than people are willing to give her credit for. That said, I still think she's more likely to be a character in the 2nd pass, but I still really have to wonder who the hell fighter #5 might be at this rate, the amount of apparent deconfirmations going around make me feel like it'll be either someone we never saw coming or someone who hasn't been eliminated yet by the deconfirmations (KOS-MOS is the one I want most out of the apparent list, doubt she'd be revealed in TGA though.)

I'm personally of the opinion that most of the conventional wisdom about "front-runners" is probably very wrong; just see what happened with Resident Evil for an example. Roster discussion traps people (myself included) in a certain box of expectations, and thinking outside that box becomes very hard.

I feel that way too many people put too much emphasis into genres and Nintendo making their decisions based off of genre diversity. While I know that many people like to fill their wishlists with characters to rep certain genres (myself included) but I don't think Nintendo has any interest or even notices that they're is an imaginary fan-made quota that must be met. Same goes with color theory and them making costly decisions off of random color association. RPG characters are the most requested (see Geno, Isaac, Sora, etc) and the reason is because players spend extensive amount of time with these characters, getting to know them over the course of generally lengthy games (another Smashboards user made this point and I wish I could link to the OG post since it was a great read and makes a ton of points.

I mean if Nintendo really cared about genre representation in the Fighter Pass, would they of released two JRPG characters back to back and to start the pass on top of that? Imagining the conversation at Nintendo is quite funny actually:

-Sakurai: Ok, so we have finalized our decisions. The 5 DLC characters will be Isaac, Hero, Geno, Sora, and Banjo & Kazooie. These are the most requested characters we have seen consistently over the years and would be a great addition to my magnum opus.
-Nintendo: Woah woah woah... hold on there, bud. That is waayyyyy too many RPG characters. We need you to trim some of them down.
-Sakurai: ...but they are highly requested and I'd enjoy working on them. I think they would be fine additions to the roster.
-Nintendo: Nope, too much RPG and we get enough complaints from the fan base about too many anime swordfighters so we are going to need you to reduce those selections down and choose some more genre variety from the list. Also, we want to hype up Persona 5 so we need to put Joker in there.
-Sakurai: If we get these characters in, it will truly be the Ultimate version of Smash with so many big requests being added.
-Nintendo: Doesn't matter. Testing groups show that genre variety sells more so please select 3 new characters. Hell, we will be generous and allow you to keep Hero since DQ is so big but NO MORE RPG CHARACTERS AFTER THAT!
Sakurai: You do realize that cuts out a lot of these potential newcomers on this list, right?
-Nintendo: Blah blah blah. We got 2 RPG characters, that's enough. There's a 3d platformer too so maybe throw in a fighter and a FPS rep or something. You'll figure it out like always. We will just release the others as Mii costumes and call it a day.
-Sakurai: Alright, I suppose a FPS character would give the western audience another rep.
-Nintendo: HOLD ON THERE! Only one western character and Banjo & Kazooie fills that spot. Try again.

Jokes aside, I just don't see Nintendo doing some 4d chess on making character selections based on the color of Joker's gloves or Banjo's pants nor do I believe there is some tally on a wall in their HQ that makes sure the genres are fairly represented in a video game DLC pass. Just my opinion though and had to state it after Lloyd has been pushed to front and center leading to a lot of people saying it's impossible or very unlikely due to there being 2 RPG characters already in.

This is a great point! I don't think Nintendo/Sakurai have ever selected a character to represent a genre in Smash. Characters get in on their own merits, not because Sakurai wants "a RPG rep" or a "FPS rep" or a "horror rep" or a "bullet hell rep".

 

[cosmicB]

Posting to throw in my support. I have no experience with the Touhou games themselves, but the music has been a part of my life for over a decade. Maybe I'll actually get off my butt and play one if Reimu gets in. More than anything, I'd just love to see the reactions. Of course she also scares me immensely since I'm terrible at dealing with zoners, but ah well.

 

[Wrathful_Scythe]

Posting to throw in my support. I have no experience with the Touhou games themselves, but the music has been a part of my life for over a decade. Maybe I'll actually get off my butt and play one if Reimu gets in. More than anything, I'd just love to see the reactions. Of course she also scares me immensely since I'm terrible at dealing with zoners, but ah well.

If you do: Most of the games are bullet hell shoot em ups. They can be a bit tricky to get into due to unfamiliarity, though Touhou is more forgiving than the likes of Mushihimesama or Ikaruga. The 7th entry is a good place to start. The mechanics are straightforward and the game is damn fun. 6 has the generally recognisable characters and my is personal favorite but the game may need some tinkering to get it running.

If you are not into shoot em ups, the series offers a line of fighting games as well. 7.5, 10.5 and 12.3 can be considered as more traditional fighting games with focus on projectiles while 14.5 (also available on PS4) and 15.5 (console version release still pending for PS4 and Nintendo Switch) abandoned the ground for aerial combat but play kinda similar.

The PC Versions will be in Japanese but there is a easy to use patch under the name of THCRAP, that translates any game in the series.

Then again, her chances of being entry 5 are slim so you might have to wait a bit if that is your criteria.

 

[TheTuninator]

Posting to throw in my support. I have no experience with the Touhou games themselves, but the music has been a part of my life for over a decade. Maybe I'll actually get off my butt and play one if Reimu gets in. More than anything, I'd just love to see the reactions. Of course she also scares me immensely since I'm terrible at dealing with zoners, but ah well.

If they're truly faithful to the series, she would be a zoner who dismantles other zoners, which of course would require her to be worse against rushdown somehow, so, you never know!

 

[Guritsu]

I feel that way too many people put too much emphasis into genres and Nintendo making their decisions based off of genre diversity. While I know that many people like to fill their wishlists with characters to rep certain genres (myself included) but I don't think Nintendo has any interest or even notices that they're is an imaginary fan-made quota that must be met. Same goes with color theory and them making costly decisions off of random color association. RPG characters are the most requested (see Geno, Isaac, Sora, etc) and the reason is because players spend extensive amount of time with these characters, getting to know them over the course of generally lengthy games (another Smashboards user made this point and I wish I could link to the OG post since it was a great read and makes a ton of points.

I mean if Nintendo really cared about genre representation in the Fighter Pass, would they of released two JRPG characters back to back and to start the pass on top of that? Imagining the conversation at Nintendo is quite funny actually:

-Sakurai: Ok, so we have finalized our decisions. The 5 DLC characters will be Isaac, Hero, Geno, Sora, and Banjo & Kazooie. These are the most requested characters we have seen consistently over the years and would be a great addition to my magnum opus.
-Nintendo: Woah woah woah... hold on there, bud. That is waayyyyy too many RPG characters. We need you to trim some of them down.
-Sakurai: ...but they are highly requested and I'd enjoy working on them. I think they would be fine additions to the roster.
-Nintendo: Nope, too much RPG and we get enough complaints from the fan base about too many anime swordfighters so we are going to need you to reduce those selections down and choose some more genre variety from the list. Also, we want to hype up Persona 5 so we need to put Joker in there.
-Sakurai: If we get these characters in, it will truly be the Ultimate version of Smash with so many big requests being added.
-Nintendo: Doesn't matter. Testing groups show that genre variety sells more so please select 3 new characters. Hell, we will be generous and allow you to keep Hero since DQ is so big but NO MORE RPG CHARACTERS AFTER THAT!
Sakurai: You do realize that cuts out a lot of these potential newcomers on this list, right?
-Nintendo: Blah blah blah. We got 2 RPG characters, that's enough. There's a 3d platformer too so maybe throw in a fighter and a FPS rep or something. You'll figure it out like always. We will just release the others as Mii costumes and call it a day.
-Sakurai: Alright, I suppose a FPS character would give the western audience another rep.
-Nintendo: HOLD ON THERE! Only one western character and Banjo & Kazooie fills that spot. Try again.

Jokes aside, I just don't see Nintendo doing some 4d chess on making character selections based on the color of Joker's gloves or Banjo's pants nor do I believe there is some tally on a wall in their HQ that makes sure the genres are fairly represented in a video game DLC pass. Just my opinion though and had to state it after Lloyd has been pushed to front and center leading to a lot of people saying it's impossible or very unlikely due to there being 2 RPG characters already in.

I do think a lot of what you say makes sense, however I honestly think it's less that he's from a JRPG and more that his moveset would inevitably be quite similar to Hero's. I just don't see him being the character to end off the pass since every character has been quite easy to differentiate by their movesets so far and I don't think Sakurai would want to end with another sword-fighting magic-using character when every character has been quite unique so far in terms of what they've brought to the table. Post-pass though I could see him being in.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

But yeah, I don't think he's happening now. Having 3/5 of the FP characters be from RPGs would be weiiird.

4/6 of the DLC characters in Smash 4 were RPG characters, so I wouldn't find it weird.

 

[cwbaaa]

I don’t think we should make any assumptions on how they might end the pass. A lot of people are expecting fighter 5 to end the pass on a bang and get a character like Sora specifically for that, but assumptions like those are pretty baseless, especially since we know it’s not exactly the final DLC.

I don’t even have any attachment to Lloyd or the Tales games, but I think Lloyd is completely fair game for fighter 5 until deconfirmed.

 

[Wrathful_Scythe]

Yeah, with everything I've read now about Llyod, he seems to be a pretty good bet. Not someone I'd choose but the only thing that is currently going against him is being "not very interesting" as a character. Then again, the Smash Team has shown that they creative and competent enough to deal with that issue and even if he seems similar to existing characters, he could end up being pretty unique. Might even check out Tales of Symphonia. Maybe this one will be a JRPG that I can genuinely like.

Also, imo not unlikely that we get the second fighter pass teasered with some information. If the last slot is not a mindblower then I'm pretty sure Nintendo has something else to announce regarding the second pass to avoid any vocal disappointment. People are hyped, more so than for any other slot.

 

[cwbaaa]

While I’m still awake, I feel like I need to go on a slight tangent and say something about Smash speculation as well.
People are quick to think about characters, but are slow to think about the company side of things. When the Half-Life game got announced, people immediately jumped on the Gordon Freeman hype train for fighter 5 even though there wasn’t anything to indicate that Valve was really working with Nintendo or the Smash team.

Joker’s inclusion is also a good example of this trait of the Smash community. The first thing people jumped to in order to rationalize Joker’s inclusion was that Joker had the Persona Q2 game so he got in because he had a Nintendo presence while still having a popular game. As it turns out, Atlus does have a history on Nintendo platforms with a good amount of their Megaten games as well as their Etrian Odyssey series, which laid the foundation for the Persona Q games. Shin Megami Tensei V, in particular was even announced at the same event that the Nintendo Switch was unveiled. Joker in Smash and Persona Q is hardly the first time Atlus has done business with Nintendo. Anybody familiar with Atlus will know that they take every opportunity they can to promote their most recent Persona game, so it’s not a shocker that they would choose Joker.

 

[cosmicB]

If you do: Most of the games are bullet hell shoot em ups. They can be a bit tricky to get into due to unfamiliarity, though Touhou is more forgiving than the likes of Mushihimesama or Ikaruga. The 7th entry is a good place to start. The mechanics are straightforward and the game is damn fun. 6 has the generally recognisable characters and my is personal favorite but the game may need some tinkering to get it running.

If you are not into shoot em ups, the series offers a line of fighting games as well. 7.5, 10.5 and 12.3 can be considered as more traditional fighting games with focus on projectiles while 14.5 (also available on PS4) and 15.5 (console version release still pending for PS4 and Nintendo Switch) abandoned the ground for aerial combat but play kinda similar.

The PC Versions will be in Japanese but there is a easy to use patch under the name of THCRAP, that translates any game in the series.

Then again, her chances of being entry 5 are slim so you might have to wait a bit if that is your criteria.

I've played Ikaruga (poorly), so at the very least I know what I'd be getting into.

I wish there was like a collection or something on Switch, but I hear Zun isn't the biggest fan of some of his earlier work, so I guess that's out of the question :/

 

[perfectchaos83]

I've played Ikaruga (poorly), so at the very least I know what I'd be getting into.

I wish there was like a collection or something on Switch, but I hear Zun isn't the biggest fan of some of his earlier work, so I guess that's out of the question :/

The only thing I know about ZUN is that he prefers to move forward rather than work on things from the past. Not only that, but he's lost the source code for a lot of the earlier games.

 

[KarneraMythos]

If you do: Most of the games are bullet hell shoot em ups. They can be a bit tricky to get into due to unfamiliarity, though Touhou is more forgiving than the likes of Mushihimesama or Ikaruga.

Really now? I was always under the impression that Touhou is ruthlessly difficult for people who don't have the patience to memorize patterns or the reflexes to react to situations that require you to thread the needle a lot. I've played Ikaruga before on normal and hard, but I would hardly call it brutal.

That being said, I'm amongst the worst examples out there, so it's just me telling myself I just suck at video games regardless of the genre, not so much that Ikaruga is difficult. I just happen to be "OK" enough to beat a game like that.

 

[Wrathful_Scythe]

Really now? I was always under the impression that Touhou is ruthlessly difficult for people who don't have the patience to memorize patterns or the reflexes to react to situations that require you to thread the needle a lot. I've played Ikaruga before on normal and hard, but I would hardly call it brutal.

That being said, I'm amongst the worst examples out there, so it's just me telling myself I just suck at video games regardless of the genre, not so much that Ikaruga is difficult. I just happen to be "OK" enough to beat a game like that.

Touhou has different difficulty settings (easy, normal, hard and lunatic) and some games are more difficult than others, which makes it hard to generalise. I'd say Touhou is very much doable on normal if you've grasped the basics of shmups (resource management, streaming and playing carefully). Hard will test your skills properly and Lunatic will have you, as you mentioned, memorize patterns and make pixel perfect dodges, while planning out how you will deal with certain attacks. Touhou is very generous when it comes to bombs and often has some kind of mechanic to help you out, which alleviates the difficulty. Touhou can be ruthless but only if you start at the very hardest setting.

Many fans overestimate Touhou's difficulty in my opinion. You occasionally see the difficulty memes but only because Touhou is the popular one in the genre. The highest difficulty, lunatic, is only one part of the game. All games (at least on windows) also come with a practice mode, which makes "getting better" way more efficient.

I have beaten all the Touhou games at least on hard but I really struggled with Ikaruga, which is why I deem Ikaruga to be pretty hard. Maybe I should have another go at the game.

I've played Ikaruga (poorly), so at the very least I know what I'd be getting into.

I wish there was like a collection or something on Switch, but I hear Zun isn't the biggest fan of some of his earlier work, so I guess that's out of the question :/

A lot of the newer games are on Steam for a reasonable price. The games run on basically any system so it is possible to enjoy the games without setting sail to the seven seas. The only games on console are the fighting games, that get ported occassionally, though only one is currently released and the other is in development.

 

[cosmicB]

So I'm curious, what would be necessary for the doujin leak to be fake? We know that the image that was initially deconfirmed came from 2 different sources (or at the very least it seems that way), but what else do we know that would shed some doubt on the whole thing? Could there be similarities to the old Dante and Gordon Freeman "leaks" where someone who knows things is actually just adding in false information? Or could the initial image not be from a second source at all and some visual program was used to make it look that way?

 

[TheTuninator]

So I'm curious, what would be necessary for the doujin leak to be fake? We know that the image that was initially deconfirmed came from 2 different sources (or at the very least it seems that way), but what else do we know that would shed some doubt on the whole thing? Could there be similarities to the old Dante and Gordon Freeman "leaks" where someone who knows things is actually just adding in false information? Or could the initial image not be from a second source at all and some visual program was used to make it look that way?

I already think it's proven fake, honestly. The whole photo thing is a little too pat, even if the analysis suggests the images had independent origins.

 

[perfectchaos83]

So I'm curious, what would be necessary for the doujin leak to be fake? We know that the image that was initially deconfirmed came from 2 different sources (or at the very least it seems that way), but what else do we know that would shed some doubt on the whole thing? Could there be similarities to the old Dante and Gordon Freeman "leaks" where someone who knows things is actually just adding in false information? Or could the initial image not be from a second source at all and some visual program was used to make it look that way?

Removing the jpg artifacts would be a colossal waste of time, even for peddling an image from a different source.

For the leak to be fake, it has to be a loz18 situation, which is my biggest fear. For the Nov 2018 leak to be fake, Reimu can't be FP5. Doujin leak still works if Reimu isn't FP5.

In other news, Lloyd is dead. Can't say I'm surprised.

 

[cwbaaa]

The Doujin one is hard to prove or disprove. Whether it’s real or fake, the information is not going to be nearly as available to the western community, so it would be harder for western speculation to look into it. Nor is there as much interest in the western community to do so assuming the means were more available. And it’s entirely possible that the image was actually run through a program to remove compression artifacts, so it’s really hard to say for sure if it could be used as proof of anything. And then there’s still the problem of connecting doujin circles with Smash Bros specifically. There’s no verifiable connection so there’s no reason to believe the claims are true yet.

We cannot prove it’s real or fake yet, nor will we likely be able to in the future. We shouldn’t believe it until we see reason to first.

 

[BernkastelWitch]

There's something amusing about all these big name characters getting deconfirmed for #5 and yet Reimu and other characters people deem "Impossible" or "Too niche" are still sticking around.

I don't know. it's just an amusing thing right now.

 

[cwbaaa]

Wtf. Lloyd’s out now? Who is still considered likely at this point?

 

[cosmicB]

Removing the jpg artifacts would be a colossal waste of time, even for peddling an image from a different source.

For the leak to be fake, it has to be a loz18 situation, which is my biggest fear. For the Nov 2018 leak to be fake, Reimu can't be FP5. Doujin leak still works if Reimu isn't FP5.

In other news, Lloyd is dead. Can't say I'm surprised.

My worry about a loz18 situation is there's only one person that has actually "leaked" anything, isn't there? A doujin circle would be a completely separate entity from tradtional developing arms. They're basically "civilians". So by that logic, wouldn't there be an expectation that more than one person would break NDA, even if only anonymously?

 

[zferolie]

Wtf. Lloyd’s out now? Who is still considered likely at this point?

Only one with any leaks pointing towards them are KOSMOS and Reimu.

 

[cosmicB]

Wtf. Lloyd’s out now? Who is still considered likely at this point?

Pretty much the only other leaks that haven't been explicitly deconfirmed are Reimu and Kos-Mos, right? Unless I missed something about the latter. Sol Badguy and Nightmare are allegedly still in the running if Fatman is to be believed. If it's a TGA reveal, I feel like Nightmare would fit somewhat.

 

[perfectchaos83]

There's a Phoenix wright leak out there, but the only thing that it has going for it is calling the date for Terry's presentation, which is basically nothing.

 

[zferolie]

There's a Phoenix wright leak out there, but the only thing that it has going for it is calling the date for Terry's presentation, which is basically nothing.

Heard that got killed almost instantly by sabi and co

 

[perfectchaos83]

Heard that got killed almost instantly by sabi and co

This one was from the beginning of October. Just a random 4chan post.